Healthy scales?

[kiiarah]

Hi everyone, I have what is probably a very silly question. As I was holding Shesha the other day I noticed that when he coils a certain way his scales are very slightly elevated at the part of his body that is bent. Part of me figures that this is probably normal but at the same time, don’t they have a thin layer of skin over the scales that would keep them smooth? I haven’t handled many other snakes that extensively so I don’t have much to compare to. Should their scales stay smooth all the time or should they be able to lift up slightly based on body positioning, movement, etc?



I also notice sometimes that they seem to catch when he pulls himself backwards against certain fabrics. He is perfectly smooth when he is moving forward but pulling backwards it is like I can feel his scales catching as he goes. If he is lying straight instead of coiled no scales appear lifted at all, this is only when he is coiled certain ways. Anyone with a bit more experience able to give me an idea of what “healthy” scales should look/feel like? I just want to be sure that I would recognize signs of any problems if I saw them. Thanks so much guys!

[Tsubaki]

Scales are not stuck together, or have a layer of skin holding them down. This would make moving around quite difficult, it would make their skin more rigid. On a shed (The inside, since they turn it inside out) you should be able to see/feel every individual scale, that is what makes their subtle moving possible. When the snake coils up, the scales overlap more on the inside of the coil and are more apart on the outside. If they coil up too tightly, the scales can't overlap anymore and they will bend, especially on heavier bodied snakes this happens fairly easy. As long as the animal is properly hydrated, a few bent scales won't hurt. Being shaped the way that they are it is also normal that they catch on stuff, especially when the snakes move backwards due to the positioning of the scales.


A bit too late for me to scour through my pictures to find a proper macro, however this one i already have uploaded shows some normal folded scales. Healthy boa male, who likes to coil up in tight corners. I could always try and find a macro, if you're still unsure if your snake's scales are healthy. Or you could take a picture and show us :)

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj100/Senna-Ichurin/Renji29_zpseb026449.jpg

[kiiarah]

Thank you that is very helpful. He hasn't gotten any scales that are actually folded yet (though I have read that can happen when they lie in one position for too long). I only notice it when he is lying in a U shape in my hand with the front half of his body touching the back half, resulting in a tight bend in his body, or in a tight coil.

I have been reading up on things like illness and injury lately so that I will know warning signs if they pop up. After researching topics like mites and skin problems I figured it might be useful to know what amount of lifting is just normal in scales and what would be considered problematic. Especially since I had to assist him with is last shed, I have been watching his skin and scales like a hawk. So can lifted scales or excessive catching on fabric and skin be a sign of a problem (dehydration, etc) or is that just a normal thing, does the amount of flexibility of the scales vary from snake to snake or species to species? Is there any kind of symptom that should show up in the scales that I should be watching for?

[Tsubaki]

Catching on fabric is a normal thing, seeing the scales stand upwards without any obvious reason is not. You won't see much of the actual lifting in a healthy snake, it should look pretty smooth besides any normal wrinkles. The sturdiness of a scale can vary between species, larger scales will catch on things as fabric easier. Dehydration is visible on the entire body, it can indent the eyes and make the skin wrinkly. Most important scale issue to look out for, is redness or other discoloring. And the more obvious things as tearing and/or blisters. :) It is nice to know what to look for, try not to get carried away though! it's easy to become too worried.

[RyanReptile]

Although I've never seen this in ball pythons a lot of large boas I've seen all seem to have some degree of upturned scales including mine I attached some pictures there not great but hopefully you get the idea what I am talking about.

[kiiarah]

I have seen a few threads on here about bent boa scales, and it does always seem like the larger snakes that have it happen. Seems like it is linked to body mass. All of Shesha’s scales are flat, so that doesn’t seem to be the case. He is so tiny still, I doubt his weight would be enough to fold his scales, lol. This only appears on the wrinkles in his skin when his body bends. When he is lying in a loose S shape it isn’t noticeable at all but if he makes his body into a tight bend, the wrinkled skin on the inner side of the bend has some scales that ruffle a bit.

The main reason I felt compelled to ask is that I know things like mites can cause scales to be raised, but I wasn’t sure exactly what that would look like. He doesn’t have any black moving dots on his body. He does have a tiny patch, a circle of maybe 12 individual scales look like the glossy upper layer is gone, they are just rough and dull. The area is not spreading at all. The dull scales happen to be right about where his shed tore last time, and I only noticed them after he shed. I came home to find that the old skin had ripped about two thirds of the way down his body and the last part was left on. Seems like this could explain the damage, but I thought it may be worth noting. It is the only scale issue he has right now.

[Tsubaki]

My picture is of an adult Nicaragua boa, he is about 3 foot. Never weighed him but i'm pretty sure he is around 2 pounds. So it's not only on large snakes. Easiest way to check for mites is looking at the cloaca/eyes, they usually hoard around there. You could post a picture of those dull looking scales, :)

[kiiarah]

I will try to get a picture when I get home from work. It is such a small area I am not sure how well they will show up, but I would be interested to know so it is worth a try. I suppose if nobody can see anything wrong in the pic it would tell me something too. From what I can tell his eyes and cloaca are great. Those are both areas I check regularly as so many issues can crop up with them both. What is the primary cause of mites? Is it the sort of thing that a snake that already has it brings it in and spreads it to collections or can a snake that is the only one in the household and doesn't go outside get them? Any preventative measures that are good to take?

[kiiarah]

Ok, I was able to get some good shots. The area in question is clearly visible. I also took a shot of his eye and vent area. http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/tarynt_gryph/SAM_1051_zps13077dcb.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/tarynt_gryph/SAM_1053_zps31eacf6a.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/tarynt_gryph/SAM_1054_zps205730bd.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/tarynt_gryph/SAM_1055_zps8bb40480.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/tarynt_gryph/SAM_1057_zpsb8a6ea55.jpg


So what do you guys think? Could this just be scale damage from shedding or does it look like something else. It is only on this one area, everywhere else looks fine.

[Tsubaki]

It looks like something else, i am on my phone at work right now so its hard to tell. Looks like something I've seen before, if it is there's not much to worry but you will have to do something about it. Will take a better look and reply again when i get home.

[kiiarah]

OK thank you, I will be watching for your reply.

[kiiarah]

I am going to start a new thread for this issue, just in case anyone is dealing with or searching for information on the same thing. Feel free to reply here or there, I will be checking both throughout the day.

[Tsubaki]

It looks a lot like scales look after a water-blister has popped, but it could be a form of rot as well. Does the area stink? I would keep a really close eye on this, do you ever mist the animal? (droplets on the body its self)

[kiiarah]

Well I do mist the enclosure, but never him directly. He didn't have anything like this when I got him. Would a water blister be something I would have noticed on him? I handle him regularly and always look over him very well when he is out so I can't imagine that I would have missed that. I read just now that it is possible for individual scales to have stuck shed. I mean it looks more to me like a missing upper half of the new scales, but I have no experience with shedding so I don't know what issues can come up. Is there any way you could link a photo of water blisters or a link to a site that discusses them for reference? I haven't noticed any smell, and he is frequently by my cheek and face. Unless it would be very subtle I can say with near certainty that there is no smell, just a rough dull appearance.

Edit: I should add that I do not mist the substrate, only the walls of the tank and the plastic plants. He has a moss ball propped in the climbing branches in the tank that I keep moist for humidity.

[Tsubaki]

I'm not saying it has to be blisters, however i doubt this was just by rubbing. It does not look like rubbing damage, also an odd place and shape for rubbing damage.. it does not look like stuck shed either. It does look like what an area thats healing from a blister looks like, rough with a damaged top layer. It is possible to miss a blister, they can pop up hours before a shed and be ripped before you can even see it. (they form between the old and new skin, damaging the new skin before the old one comes off) Could be caused by the skin being wet for too long, combined with bacteria. Only other thing i can think off is a fungus or a burn..

My personal advice, mind you i am not a vet. I'd just keep the enclosure clean and dry, normal humidity without any wetness anywhere. Keep a good eye on it.. See if it clears with shedding. Its not open, does not look painfull or irritated. Snakes are hardy creatures, it should heal on its own if it is not a fungus. If it gets any worse I'd get him to a vet.


Edit: sorry this time difference is horrid haha, I'm off to bed now. Ill look up some pictures in the morning!

[kiiarah]

No problem, and thank you so much for the input. First ball python so it is very reassuring to have more experienced keepers to compare notes with. I suppose since I was working all day it is entirely possible that a blister came up right before, though the humidity if anything has been on the low side. Not sure if that would make a difference. It hovers between 50 - 60% with misting but the highest I have seen it is 65% immediately after misting the enclosure. From what I have read, scale rot typically affects the belly scales, at least primarily. His belly is perfect, is it likely to be scale rot with only that one area affected?

No worries about the time change, it is actually sort of nice, as most of the time I am online around 2-3 am my time, so the time difference means people are actually awake various places when I am on lol.

[Aaron_S]

If you handle the snake regularly you wouldn't have missed any blisters. Heat or water blisters.

Along with scale rot, blisters, take awhile to develop in snakes. It takes awhile in some pretty unhealthy conditions to get there. However, I am not a vet and I am not looking at everything in person.

I am unsure of the cause of issue so I would use the other users advice and keep an eye on it. It looks like just missing scales at this time. You don't apply any topical lotions or ointments correct?

As for your shedding issue. It's a simple fix. Barring any health issues I would dump a full water dishs worth of water into the enclosure when you notice the eyes going blue. Re-fill the bowl and leave it be. You should have a full shed.

I do this with all mine. I don't have an absorbant substrate as I use newspaper so they sit in a damp setting for a few days and none have ever developed scale rot or water blisters. In fact I had a baby spend the better part of two weeks in his water dish with no ill effects.

On mites, you generally have to bring them into your collection. Either through a snake you purchase who already has them or somehow they catching a ride on you after handling a snake with them or someone else doing the same. The latter is much more rare than the former.

[kiiarah]

I don't use any lotions or anything on him. I wear lotion frequently, but always wash my hands before handing and don't put anything on until he is back in his tank. I will definitely continue to keep a close eye on him and make sure it doesn't worsen.

As for increasing the humidity prior to shed, is dumping the water bowl to up humidity alright if I am using aspen as substrate? Would mold be an issue or is that also something that would take longer periods of high moisture to develop? I have seen people recommend soaking them when they show early signs of shedding, but I have also seen people recommend against this, as it can remove natural oils and result in drier skin. He is probably due to shed again soon and I would love it if we could get a complete shed this time. I increased the humidity to around 70 last time, but apparently that was still too low.

I am glad to hear that mites would have to come in from an outside source. No other snakes around so we should be safe there. My only concern would be that I sometimes help relocate wild snakes at my work. What precautions could I take to ensure nothing hitches a ride back home with me in the future?

[Tsubaki]

T.b.h. i still don't think that they are blister damaged, even though it does remind me of it. The only time i have seen a sudden breakout of blisters a day before shed, was with an animal already being treated for severe blistering. That particular animal had been pro-longly exposed to very wet and unsanitary conditions, nothing like your BP. Anyway since i promised, here are some pictures, the first 2 were taken right after fresh blisters popped during shed, the last picture is of a skin deep blister infection that has almost healed up. As you can see, some of the less damaged scales look similar to what your bp has, but in the overall picture it doesn't look the same.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj100/Senna-Ichurin/Blisterdamage_zpsc3f33856.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj100/Senna-Ichurin/Blisterdamage2_zps3c561d64.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj100/Senna-Ichurin/Snakes/vochtplekkenoud_zps54572acd.jpg

In case you are wondering, this particular animal survived. The male suffering from the same condition sadly succumbed to sepsis, caused by the deep blistering.


To prevent bringing home mites, if i have been in contact with other reptiles (At an expo for example). I change my clothes and wash up when i get home, before getting anywhere near my own animals. if i have new animals i keep a close eye on them, and have separate supplies for my quarantined animals. Also carefully wash my hands etc between handling my own / quarantined animals. I have not had a mite infestation for 8 years, and i prefer to keep it that way.:p

[Tsubaki]

As for increasing the humidity prior to shed, is dumping the water bowl to up humidity alright if I am using aspen as substrate? Would mold be an issue or is that also something that would take longer periods of high moisture to develop? I have seen people recommend soaking them when they show early signs of shedding, but I have also seen people recommend against this, as it can remove natural oils and result in drier skin. He is probably due to shed again soon and I would love it if we could get a complete shed this time. I increased the humidity to around 70 last time, but apparently that was still too low.


Humidity and wetness is not the same. Yes one increases the other, but you do not need wetness to achieve high humidity. Not saying what Aaron does is a bad idea, i like to add water to my soil/husk bedding as well when the animal is getting ready to shed. I just rather not make everything wet. Seen too many animals suffering from skin conditions because of it, and i know it is not harmful if the wetness is only maintained during shed. However if the animal isn't 100% or decides to urinate, the skin could easily get irritated. Especially with bedding like aspen which is prone to mold, i would personally not just dump a load of water on it. However, to each their own way. Can't say which is better, only which i prefer.

[Aaron_S]

I don't use any lotions or anything on him. I wear lotion frequently, but always wash my hands before handing and don't put anything on until he is back in his tank. I will definitely continue to keep a close eye on him and make sure it doesn't worsen.

As for increasing the humidity prior to shed, is dumping the water bowl to up humidity alright if I am using aspen as substrate? Would mold be an issue or is that also something that would take longer periods of high moisture to develop? I have seen people recommend soaking them when they show early signs of shedding, but I have also seen people recommend against this, as it can remove natural oils and result in drier skin. He is probably due to shed again soon and I would love it if we could get a complete shed this time. I increased the humidity to around 70 last time, but apparently that was still too low.

I am glad to hear that mites would have to come in from an outside source. No other snakes around so we should be safe there. My only concern would be that I sometimes help relocate wild snakes at my work. What precautions could I take to ensure nothing hitches a ride back home with me in the future?

Yes you can dump the water even if you're using aspen. The only thing to my method is that it generally means you need a full enclosure/substrate change right after they shed.

Soaking an animal before a shed doesn't make much sense to me. It increases humidity for the moment and then once the snake is back in it's enclosure it goes back to being in a subpar shedding environment. It's useless.

The humidity needs to be increased within the living/shedding environment.

[Tsubaki]

Ah yes that makes a lot more sense, completely changing the substrate after the shed. Seems like a lot of hassle with large enclosures though. Soaking doesn't make sense to me either.