Handling during shed?

[kiiarah]

Hi everyone. So I know that snakes are prone to become aggressive during shed, particularly when their vision is clouded. Last night I had to remove my ball python and was surprised to find he was not the least bit aggressive and actually explored a bit, though he did seem more cautious than usual. His eyes are milky but he did not seem interested in striking or balling up.

So my question is, can brief handling during shed actually harm the snake or cause them not to shed properly or is this recommendation more for the keepers safety because of the chance of being bitten? I need to figure out what size food to offer and some members on here have requested a photo of the food item next to him for comparison so I would like to remove him this evening just for a moment to get a quick shot to post, but only if it won't harm him. I understand he may be more likely to bite and am comfortable risking it. I would love some quick advice. :)

[millertime89]

First of all, they become defensive, not aggressive. And not all do it. You probably won't harm your scaly friend but you can stress him out. I discourage it but if it's necessary you most likely won't do any harm. The easiest way to get that picture would be to place something next to him for scale and then place that exact same item next to the food item. I don't think placing the food item next to him is a particularly good idea to get the picture since he might think it's dinner time. Some snakes will still eat in shed and he might go for your hand instead on accident.

[kiiarah]

You are right, I should have said defensive. I find many people use the terms somewhat interchangeably, but I fully agree they are very very different.

Coincidentally, today is his normal feeding day so I actually wouldn't mind if he did want to eat it. Maybe I will thaw out the last pinky he has left and if he wants it fine, if he doesn't he has outgrown them anyway. Perhaps I can just lift his hide off him and set the food close by and see if he is interested.

As a follow up question, is there any reason it might be bad for them to eat while shedding. I was under the impression that it was just a matter of it being common for them to refuse food during shed but no harm in them eating if they choose, but I just read something that made the point that if stress from handling after eating can cause a regurg, maybe stress from the shed process could too. Seems to be one of those things that lots of people do differently. Any thoughts?

[EL Ziggy]

You are right, I should have said defensive. I find many people use the terms somewhat interchangeably, but I fully agree they are very very different.

Coincidentally, today is his normal feeding day so I actually wouldn't mind if he did want to eat it. Maybe I will thaw out the last pinky he has left and if he wants it fine, if he doesn't he has outgrown them anyway. Perhaps I can just lift his hide off him and set the food close by and see if he is interested.

As a follow up question, is there any reason it might be bad for them to eat while shedding. I was under the impression that it was just a matter of it being common for them to refuse food during shed but no harm in them eating if they choose, but I just read something that made the point that if stress from handling after eating can cause a regurg, maybe stress from the shed process could too. Seems to be one of those things that lots of people do differently. Any thoughts?
All of my snakes eat during shed and I've never had a regurge. Some snakes will eat just fine during shed and others will refuse. If they don't eat during shed they're usually pretty hungry after they shed. I also handle my snakes minimally during the shed process even though with my albinos it's sometimes hard to tell when they're getting ready to shed and I have handled them on occasion :sorry:

[kiiarah]

Ok sounds good, I will just try setting it near him and see how he responds. The pinky rat I have in the freezer did partially that out on the drive home from getting Shesha, it was refrozen fully and immediately but it does have a sort of greyish tone to the skin and not pink. Would you be concerned about feeding if it thawed halfway and was then refrozen. How exactly do you tell if a frozen feeder has gone bad?

[CosmicOwl]

I have one snake that doesn't eat while in blue, and two that do but don't have the same feeding response.

[kiiarah]

OK great, really loving all the feedback, it is nice to see the variation between different snakes and their behavior, gives me a better feel for what is normal.

Has anyone ever heard of handling a snake during shed breaking the old skin and allowing the fluid layer underneath to dissipate? I am just wondering if the act of swallowing (since they tend to flail around a bit) could damage the old skin causing the moisture to be lost and ultimately leading to a bad shed.

I just am really trying to figure out the factors other than moisture that could lead to a partial shed, the idea of anything going wrong for him scares the living daylights out of me and it is his first shed. Is there any other danger/factor you can think of that I should watch out for?

[millertime89]

All of my snakes eat during shed and I've never had a regurge. Some snakes will eat just fine during shed and others will refuse. If they don't eat during shed they're usually pretty hungry after they shed. I also handle my snakes minimally during the shed process even though with my albinos it's sometimes hard to tell when they're getting ready to shed and I have handled them on occasion :sorry:

Agreed.

OK great, really loving all the feedback, it is nice to see the variation between different snakes and their behavior, gives me a better feel for what is normal.

Each animal is different. It's awesome to work with them individually and learn their manerisms.

Has anyone ever heard of handling a snake during shed breaking the old skin and allowing the fluid layer underneath to dissipate? I am just wondering if the act of swallowing (since they tend to flail around a bit) could damage the old skin causing the moisture to be lost and ultimately leading to a bad shed.

I had to take a snake to the vet while in shed. She had an RI and while holding her in place for the vet to examine her mouth and take the sample for a culture we actually broke the old skin. We proceeded to remove the rest of it for her to make sure that it all came off as we were unsure of whether breaking it early would cause harm. Didn't seem to bother her at all that we did that.

I had one retic that actually broker her old shed while constricting her prey one day. No WAY was I sticking my hands in her enclosure to try and get her shed off and she managed it just fine.

These animals have survived for millions of years in the wild. I feel that, based on my observations and that fact, breaking the shed early will not negatively impact the snake's shedding process as long as there are no other issues.

I just am really trying to figure out the factors other than moisture that could lead to a partial shed, the idea of anything going wrong for him scares the living daylights out of me and it is his first shed. Is there any other danger/factor you can think of that I should watch out for?

While a complete, single piece shed is ideal it is not what I would call the norm. My animals very rarely need assistance with a shed but at the same time they don't always shed in one piece. Their old skin is fairly delicate and rips easily. Something as little as catching a bit on a piece of bark or the edge of some newspaper can result in the shed tearing.

If by partial shed you're referring to having shed stuck then there seem to be 2 primary factors in this occurring, stress, and hydration. A stressed animal may stop mid-shed to protect itself from whatever is stressing it out and it may become too difficult to get it started again for them to finish. Hydration doesn't just mean that there is enough humidity in their enclosure. If the snake is dehydrated in general this can lead to poor sheds.

[CosmicOwl]

Never heard of that. I tend not to feed large meals(particularly during shed) so it's not something that I've thought about. If you're worried, just don't feed. There is no need to feed while your snake is shedding.

[kiiarah]

These animals have survived for millions of years in the wild. I feel that, based on my observations and that fact, breaking the shed early will not negatively impact the snake's shedding process as long as there are no other issues.

I tell myself that all the time, but then I turn around and tell myself that I don't have enough experience to know when to worry and when not to worry, so thank you for reiterating that. It really is a very valid point.


If by partial shed you're referring to having shed stuck then there seem to be 2 primary factors in this occurring, stress, and hydration. A stressed animal may stop mid-shed to protect itself from whatever is stressing it out and it may become too difficult to get it started again for them to finish. Hydration doesn't just mean that there is enough humidity in their enclosure. If the snake is dehydrated in general this can lead to poor sheds.

Sorry, yeah I did mean stuck shed. He has been running at 55-60 % humidity and drinking from his water dish on a regular basis. His skin is wrinkly but I since that can either be a sign of dehydration or shedding, and he is getting ready to shed, is there any other way to tell if he is dehydrated, how would I know?


Never heard of that. I tend not to feed large meals(particularly during shed) so it's not something that I've thought about. If you're worried, just don't feed. There is no need to feed while your snake is shedding.

Normally I would just avoid feeding but he has been eating a prey item with the breeder that is quite a bit too small for him, so I am concerned about excessive weight loss. He is 92 grams and ate last Friday. He was eating pinky rats so would there be a guideline to follow for what would constitute dangerous weight loss.

[millertime89]

I define dangerous weight loss as rapid weight loss.

When in shed it's really hard to tell if the animal is dehydrated or not. After the shed check for wrinkles in his eyes, if you see them it can be an early sign of slight dehydration. Past that you'll begin to see the animal deflate/grow skinny. Extreme dehydration is characterized by plaque (the same stuff you get on your teeth) buildup in the mouth and a lack of energy in the animal.

[kiiarah]

That's good to know. I was reading a post the other day about getting comfortable checking their mouth when they are young. Is there any risk to doing this (not bites, that one is obvious lol), like risks to the snake? I have never noticed any wrinkles in his eyes, he has very smooth eye caps. Also, how exactly do you go about checking their mouth when they are so notoriously head shy?

I am sort of worried about doing anything that may cause him to distrust or fear me. If a snake is drinking well and has proper humidity is dehydration likely? Also, how often should I be weighing him in order to notice sudden weight loss. Is that something that could happen in the course of a few days, a week, what would be a good schedule?

[millertime89]

That's good to know. I was reading a post the other day about getting comfortable checking their mouth when they are young. Is there any risk to doing this (not bites, that one is obvious lol), like risks to the snake? I have never noticed any wrinkles in his eyes, he has very smooth eye caps. Also, how exactly do you go about checking their mouth when they are so notoriously head shy?

To check mouths I grip firmly but not too tightly behind the head and use something thin and flat but not too narrow to pry the mouth open. A ruler would work well now that I think about it. I could take a video for you when I get home if you would like.

I am sort of worried about doing anything that may cause him to distrust or fear me. If a snake is drinking well and has proper humidity is dehydration likely? Also, how often should I be weighing him in order to notice sudden weight loss. Is that something that could happen in the course of a few days, a week, what would be a good schedule?

Snakes don't really think on that level. They're not like dogs where one incident can cause them to fear you forever. If the snake is acting like, well, a snake, dehydration isn't not likely.

I don't weigh my animals at all unless I notice an issue. Believe me, you'll notice if there's sudden and rapid weight loss. It happened to a bull snake I had just gotten that was in quarantine, very scary thing to see. No idea what happened and it happened very fast. He never recovered and died a few days later. :( My animals were in lock down for 6 months after that. Nothing in or out.

But back to your question, I would weigh a few days meals. If you feed weekly on Sunday, weigh Thursday or Friday. Bi-weekly, weigh on the off week.

[millertime89]

Also I'm really happy someone else knows how to break up posts in quotes to respond to individual issues. :)

[kiiarah]

I would love a video illustrating it, just for the peace of mind that I am doing it correctly.

I think the reason things are so complicated right now is every symptom I find for dehydration is also listed as a symptom of shedding. So as far as acting like a snake, he has really been tucked away in his hide for the last couple of days. If it weren't for the shed I would be concerned but I know this isn't abnormal during shed. I guess all of this will be easier to evaluate when that is done, but I hate having to wait.
Also I'm really happy someone else knows how to break up posts in quotes to respond to individual issues. file:///C:\Users\SROCHE~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image001.gif
This is actually the first post I have used the quoting feature in, but seeing how much clearer your response was with it motivated me to learn how to do the same. Lol It took quite a bit longer than I care to admit to figure it out though, deleted the message body on accident like 4 times. :yes:

[millertime89]

I would love a video illustrating it, just for the peace of mind that I am doing it correctly.

You bet. I'll get on it tonight.

I think the reason things are so complicated right now is every symptom I find for dehydration is also listed as a symptom of shedding. So as far as acting like a snake, he has really been tucked away in his hide for the last couple of days. If it weren't for the shed I would be concerned but I know this isn't abnormal during shed. I guess all of this will be easier to evaluate when that is done, but I hate having to wait.

He's probably fine. Just let him do his thing.

This is actually the first post I have used the quoting feature in, but seeing how much clearer your response was with it motivated me to learn how to do the same. Lol It took quite a bit longer than I care to admit to figure it out though, deleted the message body on accident like 4 times. :yes:

Once you figure it out it's pretty nice. Also instead of clicking "Submit" and then deleting it you can click "Preview".

[EL Ziggy]

Sounds like somebody is getting ready for a first shed :). If your temps and humidity are in the proper ranges and he has access to food and clean water he should be fine. I'm no vet but it doesn't sound like he's ill or dehydrated to me. As far as weighing snakes, some people never do. I weigh mine once or twice a month after they've "expelled" their last meal. It's not necessary, I just like to keep track of their growth. Being a new snake parent sure is hard work ;).

[kiiarah]

It really is hard work, not in that it is difficult but I just feel like I can hardly take in everything I am trying to track and watch for and read about lol. It helps so much though when others who have been through it confirm that all sounds well. I really would be losing my mind without the forums. :sorry: I can't wait until this all becomes second nature.

I have decided I will try offering him food when I get home. He probably won't be interested, but just in case he is I figure worst case I am out an uneaten mouse, which is a sacrifice I am willing to make. I just know if i don't try I am going to be in full panic mode for the next week worrying that he is starving. I really am a basketcase lately, but it is worth it. :rolleyes:

[millertime89]

20140926_222312_zpsopsfnevt.mp4 Video by KKMpunkrock2011 | Photobucket (http://s447.photobucket.com/user/KKMpunkrock2011/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140926_222312_zpsopsfnevt.mp4.html)

[kiiarah]

Just watched the video and that makes much more sense now. Your retic is beautiful by the way! I see now that the goal isn't so much to push their lips back as it is to encourage them to open their mouth so you can see. How fragile are their teeth? Is there any danger of breaking them or are they just good about opening up before that would be a risk?

Thanks so much for posting that, now I am going to have to search around for some pictures of healthy and unhealthy snake mouths for comparison. :yes: Since bringing Shesha home my entire internet history seems to be these forums, images of different sized feeder rats, and pythons. These days it is common for the kids to come out and find mommy looking up places to buy dead rodents. Shocking how few questions they ask. lol

[millertime89]

Just watched the video and that makes much more sense now. Your retic is beautiful by the way!

Thanks! He's my favorite animal even if he's not the rarest or most visually stunning. His attitude is awesome. I don't even have to use a snake hook to get him out. Glad I could help. :)

I see now that the goal isn't so much to push their lips back as it is to encourage them to open their mouth so you can see. How fragile are their teeth? Is there any danger of breaking them or are they just good about opening up before that would be a risk?

They lose teeth periodically anyway so I'm not too worried about it. Like sharks they're constantly losing teeth and growing new ones.

Thanks so much for posting that, now I am going to have to search around for some pictures of healthy and unhealthy snake mouths for comparison. :yes: Since bringing Shesha home my entire internet history seems to be these forums, images of different sized feeder rats, and pythons. These days it is common for the kids to come out and find mommy looking up places to buy dead rodents. Shocking how few questions they ask. lol

None of these are my pictures. All from google.
Healthy
http://www.albdoo.info/imgcache2008/92b24dd3b62a14954acdef7f70989a75.jpg

Early stages (note the yellowing)
http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/files/3/8/8/5/DSC01051cs.jpg

Bad (note the plaque buildup and what appears to be the early formation of sores)
http://www.ashcroftvet.co.uk/resources/resp3.jpg

Worst (extreme plaque buildup, so bad you can't even see the flesh on the vast majority of the inside of the mouth
http://home.comcast.net/~mickeysnightmare/MNHealth/Mouth%20Rot/Mouth%20Rot%20severe.jpg

[kiiarah]

That looks awful for them. :sad: I was lucky enough the other night to happen to be holding Shesha about four inches from my face when he yawned, lol, so I got a very good view and he seems to have a lovely clear mouth, lighter in color than the snake in the first pic but definitely not yellow. He seems to love smelling faces and often rests his chin on my nose. Hopefully he keeps it up, would sure make inspecting his mouth easy. ;)

[millertime89]

Different species have different color mouths. Just look at the home page of this site for an example. You can google "Ball python yawn" to see different examples of mouth coloration.

[kiiarah]

Yep that was the first thing I did, and he looks very much like the other ball pythons on Google images. The coloration in the first picture looked so similar to bp patterning I thought for a minute perhaps he should be pinker, but all is well. :)

[millertime89]

First one's a burm.