View Full Version : My BP regurgitated her meal hours after eatting
My BP has been eating adult mice once a week for just over a month now (I've had her for about 2 months). She shed 2 nights ago (didn't want to feed her during shed, normal feeding day was Sunday) and last night she was out "hunting" so I thawed out a mouse and fed her. She took it down like a champ, slithered back into her hide and I went to sleep. Woke up this morning (6-7 hrs after feeding her) and she regurgitated it back up. I have to go to work now but I wanted to start on this process now so I can deal with it when I get home. Temps are good (hot hide is 93F, cool hide is 84F, ambient temp is 81-84F and humidity is 70% (still high from misting for shed). Not entirely sure what else could have caused this. Any help would be awesome.
nazanova
07-10-14, 05:33 AM
Maybe the mouse was just abit too big for her. I know you said you've been feeding her adult mice for a while now but maybe one out of the pack was just abit big for her to stomach? Other then that I don't know because the other thing would be temperatures but yours sound absolutely fine.
Or maybe because she only shed 2 days ago she wasn't ready to eat again. Some snakes can be funny when it comes to feeding after shedding.
If she took it, she was ready to eat it. I don't think this has anything to do with the shed. Can you post pics of your setup for us? How are you measuring your temps? Regurgitation is generally indicative that something is either wrong with your husbandry or with your snake. (Does not have to be the case). Is it possible that the mouse was not fully thawed when offered?
Also- with a warm hide at 93*F I would lower the cool side temperature to 79*F - 80*F
Mikoh4792
07-10-14, 06:34 AM
If she took it, she was ready to eat it. I don't think this has anything to do with the shed. Can you post pics of your setup for us? How are you measuring your temps? Regurgitation is generally indicative that something is either wrong with your husbandry or with your snake. (Does not have to be the case). Is it possible that the mouse was not fully thawed when offered?
Also- with a warm hide at 93*F I would lower the cool side temperature to 79*F - 80*F
+1
Pics of setup
I will get some pics when I get home. I check hide temps with a probe tstat daily. My cool side (she's almost never in it) stays warmer because I have the bottom of the tank insulated (air gap between tank and stand but stand is sealed with foam about 1 1/2" from bottom of tank). I spoke with a BP breeder at That Pet Place and he told me I could remove the insulation from the bottom of the tank. He thinks it was just one of those fluke things.
Forgot to add that I check the food thoroughly before feeding, was quite thawed. I soak it in a sandwich bag submerged in 125F water til water is luke warm (normally 30min), change the water and soak it for another 5 min so it retains temp. Check up under the ribs and between the hips to make sure it's nice and squishy. Dangled it for 30 sec or so and she hit it and coiled. Mouse was in her belly in about 10 min.
Chris72
07-10-14, 11:43 AM
It doesn’t sound like you are doing anything that should cause the animal to regurgitate. Sometimes that is just the way it goes. (Do you have a heat you use to take a Temp right before you offer the meal?)
Pictures of the set-up would help...it could be stress related depending on the setup.
An adult mouse is a fairly small meal for any Ball Python so assuming the rodent is sized properly (roughly the same as the thickest part of your snake) there should have been no challenge getting the small mouse in there.
Until we see those pics......
If its a fairly young snake try fighting the snake for the rodent (with your forceps) to get the feeding response rev'ed up as much as you can before leaving the room.
Hopfully it stops. I have one animal that decided to yack up her rat every other week...did that for two months, then stopped like it never happened.
C.
I always toy with her for a few min after she coils up. Have not been taking temp of the meals just going by feeling (not hot but has some warmth to it. I have checked the water temp after the first soak and it was around 80F.
Chris brings up a great point regarding security. If your hides are too big or the enclosure is too open it can cause a BP to regurgitate.
Chris72
07-11-14, 04:29 PM
Wykyd:
Ok, I was asking about temp on the rat incase it's actually 110+ deg inside. If you are using 80deg water you should be ok.
Man, been busy as anything. Here are them pictures of everything. As far as the mouse, I make sure it feels "normal". Tho a good mouse body temp is 98-100. The high side temp is hard to read. It's 93.7F.
Last pic and a pic of Alice.
I haven't noticed her acting "insecure". Normally once her night bulb comes on she comes out and chills either on the edge of her water bowl, on top of the thermometer or on the cold side hide. I have a decent sized piece of drift wood I'm fabricating for the tank now to add some clutter to it. Most of the time the basement she's in is chill and quiet, just me, my computer and my fish.
I feel bad for her right now... I know she's hungry. She's out "hunting" the tank, but I know she can't eat for a couple weeks. :/
Cover would help. Even if you could hang some fake plants to cover parts of the glass. She is very in the open right now and that is probably stressing her out some. I believe it's a possibility that the openness of the enclosure is the source of your problem.
I would like to suggest covering the top of the fish tank to provide a more stable environment for her. Your setup is pulling the moisture from your snake and releasing it into the air.
The top is covered with 1/4" plexiglas. I just got over a fit of mites so that's why it's still empty. Never got a chance to add anything to it once I got it set up right. :/
I forgot to add that the back and sides are lined in 1/4 black foam board.
Any reason it would just start affecting her now? Is the "insecurity" something that builds over time?
One last question, when would it be okay to feed her again? She seems very hungry. Been hunting the tank nightly, and today she's been out all day.
EL Ziggy
07-14-14, 04:50 PM
I've heard others say 7 days but I would wait 10-14 days after a regurge to feed again. Best wishes.
Aaron_S
07-14-14, 04:53 PM
One last question, when would it be okay to feed her again? She seems very hungry. Been hunting the tank nightly, and today she's been out all day.
Yes, you can.
It could simply be she was afraid of something. Handled too soon afterwards? Maybe not by you?
Very odd to randomly regurge.
Anyway, you can attempt to feed and see how it goes.
You can upgrade to rat pups when you're done you're adult mice.
Definitely no one handled her... I'm wondering if it had to do with her not being able to fit into her hide with the meal inside her... I noticed recently smears on the glass around the entrance to the hide, tho the regurge was behind the hide (hot hide, the one she's ALWAYS in).
I read something about cutting her meals down to 1/2 size for around a month to make sure she's digesting okay... assuming that's a good move. I just wish I could make her feel better, poor thing still has 9 more days if I wait 2 weeks total.
Aaron_S
07-15-14, 06:36 AM
Definitely no one handled her... I'm wondering if it had to do with her not being able to fit into her hide with the meal inside her... I noticed recently smears on the glass around the entrance to the hide, tho the regurge was behind the hide (hot hide, the one she's ALWAYS in).
I read something about cutting her meals down to 1/2 size for around a month to make sure she's digesting okay... assuming that's a good move. I just wish I could make her feel better, poor thing still has 9 more days if I wait 2 weeks total.
Adult mouse isn't a stretch of a meal for her so I would just stick with that.
No, she won't regurge because she can't fit in a hide.
If she does it again then you may have an issue but for a one time thing I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Chris72
07-15-14, 10:30 AM
When you say that you just got over a fit of mites.....what does that look like?
How long ago?
Has the animal taken meals since treatment?
How did you clean the tank (and things inside) after treatment?
When you say that you just got over a fit of mites.....what does that look like?
How long ago?
Has the animal taken meals since treatment?
How did you clean the tank (and things inside) after treatment?
Chris- cam mites cause regurgitation?
It's been about 3 weeks now. I treated her with reptile spray for mites, sprayed it on my hand and rubbed it in (this was every 3 days). I soaked her in 82°F water daily. Every time I treated her I treated her tank, hides and water dish. Sprayed everything down with the treatment spray then rinsed with hot water. Wiped the tank down with hot soaked paper towels. Lasted about 3 weeks total, she shed prior to the mites appearing, ate regularly (adult mice). After the initial bunch there was only ever a couple mites at a time between treatments.
Chris72
07-15-14, 11:10 AM
Chris- cam mites cause regurgitation?
I don't think they can directly.
Although a bad case of mites could cause internal illness that could indirectly.
I was thinking more of the chemicals.
Also I removed all bedding and lined the tank with paper towels that I changed daily.
The start was when I had finally gotten her tank set up correctly with good temps and humidity, apparently the store I got her from had a batch of mites right after I got her but mine took a long time to mature due to the inadequate temps. I came home to her one day soaking in her water dish and made that horrible discovery... initially there was probably 20-30 mites that I could see in the dish... After that the numbers dwindled fast but took about 3 weeks before I didn't see any at all. Gave it another 2 weeks before I put her bedding back in... which made her quite happy as she would not move from the top of the tstat the entire treatment time. As soon as I put the bedding in she slithered right into her hot hide.
The only time she was not eating regularly for me was when I first got her... since then she's been doing great.
Is it possible the mouse was "bad"? The week before I thawed a mouse and as I was dangling it the belly broke open and black smelly stuff came out. Threw it away and thawed out another which she ate fine.
Chris72
07-15-14, 11:28 AM
It's been about 3 weeks now. I treated her with reptile spray for mites, sprayed it on my hand and rubbed it in (this was every 3 days). I soaked her in 82°F water daily. Every time I treated her I treated her tank, hides and water dish. Sprayed everything down with the treatment spray then rinsed with hot water. Wiped the tank down with hot soaked paper towels. Lasted about 3 weeks total, she shed prior to the mites appearing, ate regularly (adult mice). After the initial bunch there was only ever a couple mites at a time between treatments.
Most importantly: Never, ever, ever, under any circumstances spray anything with Permethrin (like Pervent-a-mite) on your skin, or inhale it. It is a carcinogenic, neurotoxic poison. If you get it on your snake it must be washed off, and the water dish should be OUT of the enclosure for a couple of hrs after spray. The permethrine will turn the water to poison.
So it's been three weeks since you stopped treatment? Or am I reading it right that treatment just ended, it lasted three weeks and she hasn't eaten since before the mites?
Three weeks might (mite) not be enough if there is eggs. The sprays don't kill eggs that have been laid already so keep an eye on that.
How old is that substrate in the tank please?..........?
I didn't use PAM, I'll send a pic when I get home. Substrate is fresh, new bag. It's been almost a month now that I think about it since treatment ended.... The entire treatment lasted 3 weeks. She never stopped eating regularly even during treatment.
Here is the pic of the mite spray
Chris72
07-15-14, 02:57 PM
So then the Ingredients:
Dioctyl sodium sulfosuccinate 2.1%, undecylenic acid 0.5%. Other Ingredients: 97.4%.
Would not be a factor in a regurgitation considering you were vigilant in cleaning, etc.
(Hope that stuff did the trick with your mites)
Aaron_S
07-15-14, 05:06 PM
Most importantly: Never, ever, ever, under any circumstances spray anything with Permethrin (like Pervent-a-mite) on your skin, or inhale it. It is a carcinogenic, neurotoxic poison. If you get it on your snake it must be washed off, and the water dish should be OUT of the enclosure for a couple of hrs after spray. The permethrine will turn the water to poison.
So it's been three weeks since you stopped treatment? Or am I reading it right that treatment just ended, it lasted three weeks and she hasn't eaten since before the mites?
Three weeks might (mite) not be enough if there is eggs. The sprays don't kill eggs that have been laid already so keep an eye on that.
How old is that substrate in the tank please?..........?
Chris you understand that this is the active ingredient of Nix head lice remover, correct? That yes it may be a poison but as long as it's diluted and then washed/rinsed off it won't do any harm since it goes onto people's heads on a regular basis.
Chris72
07-15-14, 08:00 PM
Chris you understand that this is the active ingredient of Nix head lice remover, correct? That yes it may be a poison but as long as it's diluted and then washed/rinsed off it won't do any harm since it goes onto people's heads on a regular basis.
Yup.
Permethrine is the active ingredient in Nix, P.A.M.,No-Pest-Strips, most flea sprays, etc.
Sure, watered down it's not going to send you to the emergency room or hurt your animal the first exposure or two. However it's still poison that shouldn't be inhaled or sprayed on the skin. Proper preventative precautions should be taken.
(Not applicable in thus case anyway)
OSMDEATHOWNER
07-15-14, 08:27 PM
Why is you under tank heater, not under the tank?
It was one of the "ideas" that came across when trying to build up the ambient temp without using a lamp. Of course it did not work, but it helps LOADS with the humidity. There is a UTH under each side of the tank (hot and cold).
Well I guess I'm going to try and feed her today and see how that goes. I finally put the drift wood bridge thing I made into her cage and she was all over it. She's definitely a climber as she normally wraps around and climbs up the tstat probe wires... now she actually has something she can get off the ground with easily. Hopefully this helps her calm down some. I'm also going to get some fake vines or branches this weekend to brighten up the tank a bit too an give some more cover.
Chris72
07-16-14, 10:39 AM
It was one of the "ideas" that came across when trying to build up the ambient temp without using a lamp. Of course it did not work, but it helps LOADS with the humidity. There is a UTH under each side of the tank (hot and cold).
Two under tank heaters? What do you have them plugged into?
ReptiTherm tstats.
Still going to hold off on feeding her to be safe. I did pick up some hopper mice last night tho. Maybe feed her this weekend.
The vines will help alot. It's fun watching your snake explore it's new layout isn't it?
virtuousvixen
07-17-14, 02:37 PM
The vines will help alot. It's fun watching your snake explore it's new layout isn't it?
I love watching them do this. Mine uses his vines all the time.
I'm excited to finish.... been busy this week so I haven't had the time yet to check stuff out. I did however add the drift wood to the tank and she loves it. She climbed it the night after I put it in.
EL Ziggy
07-17-14, 08:40 PM
Your tank is coming along nicely Wykd. Once you add those fake plants, vines and leaves you'll be in the mix. Good job on the enclosure.
She ate tonight... ferociously might I add, could totally tell how hungry she was. I think she may have been disappointed with the size of the meal too. Have my fingers cross I don't find it layin the viv in the AM....... hold that sucker down I said. hah.
Chris72
07-21-14, 03:15 PM
She ate tonight... ferociously might I add, could totally tell how hungry she was. I think she may have been disappointed with the size of the meal too. Have my fingers cross I don't find it layin the viv in the AM....... hold that sucker down I said. hah.
Assuming it worked out?
What did she take?
So far so good, she was out again last night and I found no mouse. She ate a hopper mouse. I got 5 of them and then I'll move her back up to adult mice.
Aaron_S
07-22-14, 08:12 AM
Will you please consider switching from adult mice to rats?
It is much easier for you to switch the snake to feeding on rats.
Chris72
07-22-14, 08:57 AM
Will you please consider switching from adult mice to rats?
It is much easier for you to switch the snake to feeding on rats.
Solid point...and to add.....
Switching a BP to rats while the snake is say...under 1kg... Is much...much...easier than trying to switch a large (established) animal.
If you are going to switch...do it ASAP.
(You don't want to screw around with 4 or 5 mice a week when your animal is 2,500g....and if you wait till is that big it will probably be a struggle.)
If you have 4 hopper mice left:
> forget the adult mice completely.
> feed again in a week, if nothing make the next interval 2 wks.
> go in with a hopper mouse! Let her take it then as she is finishing give her a rat that just (just) opened its eyes....drop that in, leave it over night.
> try that a few times and you should be good.
Once she takes a rat, try just a rat the next week. Eventually she will take the rat first.
Remember some snakes switch first try.....some it will take two months of trying (I spent a year switching a large girl)....stick with it and keep us posted.
Once you get her on rats we can help you get her on F/T, the maybe we can try for thawed at room temp (no hot water....that makes life easy!!) :)
Keep us posted. :)
Aren't small rats too big? I'm still unsure what caused the initial regurge and am leary about a large meal, tho she does take down adult mice fairly easily.
I'll have to get her out and weigh her at some point, but she is approx 22 inches long and about an inch to 1.5 inches in diameter.
About a month ago I did try a rat, but as I said before it busted open and I just threw it away. If it's thought to be a good move maybe I'll feed her these last 4 hoppers over the next two weeks (2 per feeding) and switch after that.
Oh, btw... recent pic just for fun.
Also, I bought a meat thermometer and stuck it in the water while thawing out her last meal to be sure that wasn't the issue. I fed her when the water was at approx 98°F.
Lastly, getting my hands on pinky rats is nearly impossible. I've checked so many stores and most only sell small which are considerably larger than adult mice. Any tips?
Chris72
07-29-14, 05:30 PM
Lastly, getting my hands on pinky rats is nearly impossible. I've checked so many stores and most only sell small which are considerably larger than adult mice. Any tips?
Forget the pink rats. I'll have been feeding hatchling crawler rats. (With solid fur color)
It's hard to tell the size of your animal but as a rule you are going to pick the rodent size that is about the same diameter as the fattest part of the snake.
If it was eating adult mice then a fat weaned rats (45-90g) would be perfect.
Thoughts:
A) ask the pet supply place when they get the rat shipments and try to be there as close to delevery as you can.....ask for the smallest "small" rat.
B) search for a Facebook ball python "group" in your area, join that facebook group, ask who the nicest live rat supplier around is....buy from him.
C) take a picture of your snake on something really common (like a magazine) so we can get a sence of how big is it....give some guidance on the right rodent size.
D) you would be shocked at how much rodent your ball can put away. You'll bet against going down once or twice just to watch it vanish in disbelief.
PS. Very cool pattern.
Thanks again for all the help. I just got back from an out of town training trip. I fed her right before I left and returned to NOTHING in the tank (YAY!!). I'll get her out and get a few good pictures for y'all to see.
I picked up some pretty cool ivy vines and some other cheap greenery that I'm going to use to fill up the tank some more. Going to add "branches and leaves" to the drift wood pieces to add some more flare. Should have some pictures of that over the next few days if not this weekend.
Here are some pics of her on an 18 inch ruler... she's getting big lol. When I got her I think she was only 16 inches.
Aaron_S
08-01-14, 07:48 AM
Lastly, getting my hands on pinky rats is nearly impossible. I've checked so many stores and most only sell small which are considerably larger than adult mice. Any tips?
Forget the small meals.
Find rat pups or rat weanlings. Those should be fitting for yours.
Chris72
08-03-14, 07:46 AM
Here are some pics of her on an 18 inch ruler... she's getting big lol. When I got her I think she was only 16 inches.
Yup....should be eating a larger pup or weaned. (Forget the pinks)
You wouldn't want to over feed but this animal could put away a larger "small" rat in three minutes or less if it felt motivated.(impressive to watch) The pup / weenie size will be perfect right now.
Chris72
08-06-14, 03:44 PM
Just for comparison:
Here is a pinky rat a few days old with a new baby ball python.
This snakes is less than 85g today.
That pink is a good meal for this baby.
Your Alice is a solid yearling (what....400g?)..don't be afraid to feed it well.
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