Herps you don't think should be kept as pets?

[CosmicOwl]

I'm pretty much all for people keeping whatever exotics they like, so long as the care is good. However, some of the things I watch and read do give me pause. When I see something like a 5 foot alligator being in a kiddie pool in someone's basement, I can't help but think that it's wrong. And even though venomous snakes fascinate me, I wonder if it's worth it to keep wild caught snakes that are quite stressed and weakened from the process.

What do you guys think? Are there any herps that you don't think should be kept as pets?

[alessia55]

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[millertime89]

Personally I feel you should have to be trained and licensed to own any snake that will pass 12ft or is venomous, any crocodilian, or any monitor that will surpass 4ft nose to tail tip. You should need a permit to breed and sell. Also you need to be over 18 to do either. However this sets a dangerous precedent as this gives information to people that have a tendency to take legislation from a "restricted" stance to banning them all together. I feel like USARK would be the best organization to facilitate a training, licensing a permit system as they're in a position to work with local herp societies.

[SuperSleuth]

I think anything that can/will outlive you is a bad idea. While *you* may be capable of providing proper care for it, you can't be certain of what will happen to it once you're gone.

[millertime89]

I think anything that can/will outlive you is a bad idea. While *you* may be capable of providing proper care for it, you can't be certain of what will happen to it once you're gone.

Unfortunately anything CAN outlive you. We're fragile creatures and death is always around the corner. Just something to consider.

[SuperSleuth]

Miller, I'm aware of that, but intentionally buying something that has a longer lifespan is different.

[Mikoh4792]

I think any animal should be able to be kept as pets provided they are taken good care of.

[SnoopySnake]

I think that species that have been taken from the wild time and time again and never survive, or end up only living a couple years shouldn't be kept. Species like dragon snakes that just can't really successfully be kept.

But with that I also realize that every animal we have in captivity now was probably once a similar story, where it took thousands of them to finally figure out how to successfully keep them - what temperatures and humidity they need, and what prey they can and can't survive on.

I also agree with Millertime that larger species and hots shouldn't be kept by the average keeper and should require some kind of training and proof of an adequate enclosure, as this is something most people just can't provide for the much larger species.

[Jim Smith]

This can be a touchy subject, but I tend to agree with millertime89. Animals that pose a significant threat to life should have some limitations placed on owning and breeding them. I also have concerns about people keeping animals that can become invasive with little or no natural predators. This of course splashes over into people who keep fish (pun intended). Exotic species such as snakeheads, species of catfish and even piranha have been caught in local lakes here in Georgia. Believe me, I am not a fan of government interference, however, history has shown us that animal owners are not always the most responsible people you'll ever meet in life.

[smy_749]

Anything you can't take care of properly haha ;)

[EL Ziggy]

I believe giants, hots and crocodilians should require training, licensing, and regulation.

[FWK]

I'm pretty much all for people keeping whatever exotics they like, so long as the care is good. However, some of the things I watch and read do give me pause. When I see something like a 5 foot alligator being in a kiddie pool in someone's basement, I can't help but think that it's wrong. And even though venomous snakes fascinate me, I wonder if it's worth it to keep wild caught snakes that are quite stressed and weakened from the process.

What do you guys think? Are there any herps that you don't think should be kept as pets?

Such a sensitive issue lol. I agree with you, I think people should be free to keep just about anything as long as proper care and security is provided. How to regulate proper care and security is the problem. My home state, Texas, has some of the most lax herp laws in the country and I hope it stays that way. In my opinion most states ridiculously over-regulate herps. Ignorance breeds fear and fear sells newspapers and gets politicians elected, it is easy to drum up support for legislation restricting animals the general public are already afraid of. If I ever have the space (and money) for a properly fenced private pond I'd like to keep a gator myself. There is a breeder in Florida working with albino gators, just breathtaking animals. But keeping a gator in a kiddie pool in a basement I don't think could be considered proper care lol. To me the real issue is not so much people keeping the animals, it's released or escaped animals. And even then the real danger (in my opinion anyway) is, as Jim Smith mentioned, the threat invasive species pose to local ecosystems. And this threat goes far beyond herps or even fish as Jim mentioned. Do a little research on the absolutely catastrophic damage that has already been done by the domesticated cat, especially to isolated ecosystems such as islands. The numbers are simply staggering. Any politician going to propose legislation banning domesticated cats? No, nobody is afraid of domesticated cats. And it would be political suicide lol. Then research how many people in the U.S. are killed by exotic pets. Those numbers are, in all honesty, minuscule. There are inherent dangers in working with hots or giants but to be fair there are inherent dangers in just about any hobby. I've been riding motorcycles for better than a decade. That hobby kills more than four thousand people a year. I have seen friends die and I've even been involved in a nasty wreck when a someone in an SUV playing on her cell phone pulled out in front me. I understand the dangers and accept the risks and responsibilities that come with riding because I love to ride. The same goes for my herp hobby. Heck more people die weightlifting, another of my hobbies, than are killed by giant snakes and crocodilians in the U.S. But you are not going to see legislation banning motorcycles or weightlifting are you? Because people aren't afraid of motorcycles or weights. People are afraid of reptiles. Fear makes money. A lot of money.

[EL Ziggy]

I think proper training, demonstrated proficiency, a minimum age requirement and sometimes insurance should be required to operate a motor vehicle, carry a firearm, or to own deadly exotic animals.

[jpsteele80]

I personally don't think anything but hots should be regulated, it all comes down to common sense, if you cant properly take care of an animal then you shouldn't buy it, it is the owners responsibility to do the research and be able to take care of it.

[EL Ziggy]

Unfortunately common sense isn't so common these days.

[SSSSnakes]

I personally don't think anything but hots should be regulated, it all comes down to common sense, if you cant properly take care of an animal then you shouldn't buy it, it is the owners responsibility to do the research and be able to take care of it.

Hots need to be regulated, but also large snake, such as Rock Pythons and Burms. Lets face the facts, larger snakes have killed family members and friends staying in the same house, were as HOTs normally only injure the owners of the snakes.

[Mikoh4792]

Hots need to be regulated, but also large snake, such as Rock Pythons and Burms. Lets face the facts, larger snakes have killed family members and friends staying in the same house, were as HOTs normally only injure the owners of the snakes.

I am of the opinion larger snakes should be regulated as well.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I agree with hots and large constrictors being regulated as stated in this thread, although I do not agree with banning them. Probably crocodilians and *maybe* large lizards (such as monitors) as well. Just because they can be so much more dangerous, and the average owner may or may not be able to properly maintain, house, and control them. Requiring a license or setting certain rules could potentially rule out many irresponsible owners, although I also worry about such laws becoming stepping-stones for even stricter laws.

[FWK]

I agree with hots and large constrictors being regulated as stated in this thread, although I do not agree with banning them. Probably crocodilians and *maybe* large lizards (such as monitors) as well. Just because they can be so much more dangerous, and the average owner may or may not be able to properly maintain, house, and control them. Requiring a license or setting certain rules could potentially rule out many irresponsible owners, although I also worry about such laws becoming stepping-stones for even stricter laws.

The proverbial head of the nail, you hit it. This is exactly why I so strongly resist anti-herp legislation of any kind. Groups like The Humane Society and PETA are working hard to chip away at our rights to keep animals of any kind, herps and Pit Bulls are their favorite and easiest targets due to public support. They know you don't fell a great tree with one mighty swing of the axe. But with many small swings they hope they can take our rights to keep any pet.

[marvelfreak]

Anacondas! I say this because 99% of the people that get them get rid of them after only a couple years. They are just to aggressive, or to big, or to moody just to name a few repeated excuses i seen over and over. Most anacondas make better display snakes then pets. Unlike me most people don't want a display snake then want something they can take out and show of all the time. So when the realization sits in that they bit off more than they can handle they get rid of them. Most are i see are not house properly or mistreated. It just sad. Out of all the anaconda tons of owners i know on line only less than a dozen still have theirs after a couple years.

[CosmicOwl]

Anacondas! I say this because 99% of the people that get them get rid of them after only a couple years. They are just to aggressive, or to big, or to moody just to name a few repeated excuses i seen over and over. Most anacondas make better display snakes then pets. Unlike me most people don't want a display snake then want something they can take out and show of all the time. So when the realization sits in that they bit off more than they can handle they get rid of them. Most are i see are not house properly or mistreated. It just sad. Out of all the anaconda tons of owners i know on line only less than a dozen still have theirs after a couple years.

Anacondas were one of the animals I was thinking of. I think that if you're going to keep the real giants, you need to be willing to give them tons of space and access to water. It seems that a lot of people keep them in enclosures that would make breeding racks seem spacious.

[StudentoReptile]

Interesting question...

First of all, should we define the word "pet?" According to the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), a pet is any animal kept for companionship, loyalty or affection. Reptiles really do not fit any of those criteria (although I'm certain there are many hobbyists out there who will disagree....if you do, there are plenty of threads in this site and others that hash out the debate of whether reptiles actually have affection. Please refrain from doing so here).

Of course, that is one definition. What is a pet, really? Just an animal you possess and own and keep? I'm an ACO (animal control officer) and believe me, its a very subjective term. There's a big difference in the person who has a dog that stays by their side nearly every hour of the day, and is considered a beloved member of the family...and the person who keeps a dog tied up in the yard all day & night, and the only interaction is coming out to give it fresh food and water. Now, IMHO the latter animal is certainly not being treated as a companion animal, is it?
---
Now, we're talking about reptiles, not dogs and cats. Whatever reason you got it for, you are keeping this animal in a box made of glass (or plastic or wood?) for most of its captive life, and it only gets limited time out of this box. It really does not love you. Its not a lapdog. Its not a smart psittacine that will learn words and sentences. Depending on the species, its intelligence level may vary, but compared to mammals and birds, this is not the type of animal one gets if you want companionship or affection. If we're being realistic, keeping herps in captivity is somewhere between aquariums and hamsters (depending on who you ask and your husbandry methods).
---
I'm going to go out on a limb and rephrase the OP's question to say: what herps should not be so readily available to the general public?

I know different states and provinces have different laws. But I think most have said the "big three" already:

crocodilians
venomous
large constrictors


I know a lot of people are against regulations of any kind, but guess what...its coming whether you like it or not. Better to try and get involved with some of the decision making, and hopefully it can be reasonable. Sometimes it is not. But the hobby has shown time and again, it has done a piss-poor job of policing itself. I see many species that have no business ending up in the hands of novices getting purchased for chump change...all in the name of greed.

I even think large lizard species like iguanas and monitors should be regulated, but I know that's going to be a hard sell (especially iguanas).

[CosmicOwl]

Interesting question...

First of all, should we define the word "pet?" According to the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), a pet is any animal kept for companionship, loyalty or affection. Reptiles really do not fit any of those criteria (although I'm certain there are many hobbyists out there who will disagree....if you do, there are plenty of threads in this site and others that hash out the debate of whether reptiles actually have affection. Please refrain from doing so here).

Of course, that is one definition. What is a pet, really? Just an animal you possess and own and keep? I'm an ACO (animal control officer) and believe me, its a very subjective term. There's a big difference in the person who has a dog that stays by their side nearly every hour of the day, and is considered a beloved member of the family...and the person who keeps a dog tied up in the yard all day & night, and the only interaction is coming out to give it fresh food and water. Now, IMHO the latter animal is certainly not being treated as a companion animal, is it?
---
Now, we're talking about reptiles, not dogs and cats. Whatever reason you got it for, you are keeping this animal in a box made of glass (or plastic or wood?) for most of its captive life, and it only gets limited time out of this box. It really does not love you. Its not a lapdog. Its not a smart psittacine that will learn words and sentences. Depending on the species, its intelligence level may vary, but compared to mammals and birds, this is not the type of animal one gets if you want companionship or affection. If we're being realistic, keeping herps in captivity is somewhere between aquariums and hamsters (depending on who you ask and your husbandry methods).
---
I'm going to go out on a limb and rephrase the OP's question to say: what herps should not be so readily available to the general public?

I know different states and provinces have different laws. But I think most have said the "big three" already:

crocodilians
venomous
large constrictors


I know a lot of people are against regulations of any kind, but guess what...its coming whether you like it or not. Better to try and get involved with some of the decision making, and hopefully it can be reasonable. Sometimes it is not. But the hobby has shown time and again, it has done a piss-poor job of policing itself. I see many species that have no business ending up in the hands of novices getting purchased for chump change...all in the name of greed.

I even think large lizard species like iguanas and monitors should be regulated, but I know that's going to be a hard sell (especially iguanas).

In this case, I'd define "pet" as being an animal that you keep for your own enjoyment, rather than educational purpose(though the two could intersect), conservation, or some sort of agriculture purpose(meat, hides, farming etc). I don't think that "pet" is the appropriate term for dogs and cats. They're companion animals, even if people don't treat them that way. They're bonded to humans in a way that other animals are not.

If we're going to rephrase the question, I'd rather go with something like this: "What herps should not be kept for personal enjoyment?"

I suppose I didn't explain in detail in my OP, but the question wasn't really intended to be about regulation of herps, or exotics in general. Instead, I was simply asking people what animals they object to being kept in captivity.

[mistersprinkles]

I feel that if you're eccentric enough to own venomous animals, and one of them bites you, and you go to the hospital, your healthcare provider, be it private or government, should not be liable for the cost of your treatment. It has to come out of your pocket. You got yourself into this mess, you pay your own way out.

I also think that if you have a venomous reptile and it bites somebody else due to your negligence you should be charged with attempted murder.

Venomous reptiles are terrible ideas for pets IMO.

[Mikoh4792]

I also think that if you have a venomous reptile and it bites somebody else due to your negligence you should be charged with attempted murder.

It would not be attempted murder.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I feel that if you're eccentric enough to own venomous animals, and one of them bites you, and you go to the hospital, your healthcare provider, be it private or government, should not be liable for the cost of your treatment. It has to come out of your pocket. You got yourself into this mess, you pay your own way out.

I also think that if you have a venomous reptile and it bites somebody else due to your negligence you should be charged with attempted murder.

Venomous reptiles are terrible ideas for pets IMO.

I think that's going a bit far. I agree that venomous aren't necessarily the best choice, but you don't need to be so extreme about it. What if somebody got mauled by their dog? You knew the dog could injure you when you got it, so let's make you pay for your operation(s). If you can't, oh well, not our problem, we'll set up your funeral. Snake owners in general are already stigmatized enough, let's not do the same to members in the same hobby. It reminds me of what asexuals put up with in the LGBT community, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

As far as OP's rephrased question. I don't think the animals I discussed in my previous post should be available to the general public (general public as in anybody can get them regardless of skill, fulfillment of requirements, ability to care for the animal, etc.). Only people who are able to care for them should be able to get them, so I don't think they should vanish completely from private ownership but we should be smarter about it.

[LiL Zap]

I believe giants, hots and crocodilians should require training, licensing, and regulation.

Took the words right outta my mouth.

[StudentoReptile]

I suppose I didn't explain in detail in my OP, but the question wasn't really intended to be about regulation of herps, or exotics in general. Instead, I was simply asking people what animals they object to being kept in captivity.

Again, are you implying captivity PERIOD, which covers zoos, rescues, wildlife rehab centers, nature centers, etc....or just the average private citizen? I'll assume you just mean the latter.

In that case, crocodilians, hands down. Even the smallest species require more space and resources than most can reasonably provide, and realistically, most acquire them for the "cool" factor. Most species of crocodilians are protected in some form or fashion, and the average citizen should not be able to acquire any species.

Each state has their own laws, and I do understand some people have special trapping, gaming or educating licenses to "borrow" from farms or capture WC American alligators temporarily for relocation and for educational use. I don't have an issue with that, because such people are not actually keeping those gators in their homes. But being able to purchase a so-called "dwarf" caiman or Alligator in some of the northern states is ridiculous.

[Pareeeee]

I think that people should be allowed to own the pet they want, but there should be some sort of licencing system to help weed out the irresponsible individuals.

There should be a educational course that everyone has to take before obtaining a licence to own a venomous or giant reptile (ie green anaconda, American alligator).

There should also be regulations, especially for venomous snakes, that ensure that enclosures are secure and the animals cannot escape and endanger others.

Instead of banning ownership of the animals altogether, I wish the government would have the initiative to implement something like what I have described.

[SSSSnakes]

There should also be regulations, especially for venomous snakes, that ensure that enclosures are secure and the animals cannot escape and endanger others.



First off I don't think there has ever really been an issue with venomous snakes escaping and killing people. There has been many cases of large snake escaping and killing people. That said, in NY I have to meet strict requirements as to the housing of my venomous snakes. They have to be in enclosures that are locked and labeled with warning signs as well as the snake common and scientific name. They have to be in an escape proof room, that is locked an a sign on the door stating there are venomous snake in the room. The DEC requires that I take pictures of all this and send it in with my license renewal each year.

[FWK]

First off I don't think there has ever really been an issue with venomous snakes escaping and killing people. There has been many cases of large snake escaping and killing people. That said, in NY I have to meet strict requirements as to the housing of my venomous snakes. They have to be in enclosures that are locked and labeled with warning signs as well as the snake common and scientific name. They have to be in an escape proof room, that is locked an a sign on the door stating there are venomous snake in the room. The DEC requires that I take pictures of all this and send it in with my license renewal each year.

I haven't heard any stories of people killed by escaped venomous either, it is almost always the keeper or handler who gets bit. I would like to see these "many" cases of people people killed by escaped giants though, I have read at least the media reports on every non-venomous snake related human fatality in this country in the last forty years and I do not recall a single instance of any other than the keeper or someone in the keepers home being killed.

It is a bit disappointing how quick the giant keepers are to point at venomous and say "those are what should be regulated!" and how quick the hot keepers are to point right back at the giants. We are all in the same boat people. If one goes the other will be quick to follow.

[CosmicOwl]

Again, are you implying captivity PERIOD, which covers zoos, rescues, wildlife rehab centers, nature centers, etc....or just the average private citizen? I'll assume you just mean the latter.

In that case, crocodilians, hands down. Even the smallest species require more space and resources than most can reasonably provide, and realistically, most acquire them for the "cool" factor. Most species of crocodilians are protected in some form or fashion, and the average citizen should not be able to acquire any species.

Each state has their own laws, and I do understand some people have special trapping, gaming or educating licenses to "borrow" from farms or capture WC American alligators temporarily for relocation and for educational use. I don't have an issue with that, because such people are not actually keeping those gators in their homes. But being able to purchase a so-called "dwarf" caiman or Alligator in some of the northern states is ridiculous.

I mean private collections. Animals kept mainly for one's own personal enjoyment. Not conservation, eduction, agriculture etc.

[SSSSnakes]

It is a bit disappointing how quick the giant keepers are to point at venomous and say "those are what should be regulated!" and how quick the hot keepers are to point right back at the giants. We are all in the same boat people. If one goes the other will be quick to follow.

I keep both venomous and giants. Both are regulated in NY and I have to have licenses for both. I was not pointing fingers, just stating some facts. Neither venomous nor the giants are allowed to be kept as pets any more.

[StudentoReptile]

This thread also begs the question/debate of rights vs privileges.

Since when did it become established that people felt they were entitled to own or possess any animal they please? [see various definitions for the word "right" (noun)]

Versus a privilege, which in reality, is what this is. We got this, free of charge, decades ago, but now, we've done a piss-poor job of maintaining it, and slowly, we're are getting these privileges taken away [Ex: take any recent state or federal legislative action against the possession of exotic pets or reptiles specifically].

Bottom line: you have a right to free speech, to an education, to food, water, shelter, to reproduce, to proper housing, to vote, to freedom (as opposed to slavery), etc. and so on. These are amenities and civil rights as a sentient being in a free world.

Everything else, such as cars (or specifically the license to operate one), guns, or pets, are luxuries. You do not require them to survive, and the first two, if not used properly, are (obviously) hazardous. Thus, a licensing system is in place, and if you abuse the privilege of owning and operating one, you get the privilege revoked (among other things).

It only stands to reason that owning and caring for a large and/or venomous animal should require a licensing system as well. Not only if you do not maintain the animal properly, there is a welfare issue to be considered, but if the animal is not securely contained or handled properly, there is again, a risk of hazard. If you abuse the privilege, and you or another human being (or someone else's pet) gets injured or killed by your animal, then your privilege should be revoked.

This is why this is touchy topic, but this is my opinion. Its that simple. Its doesn't take much to get a driver's license, or a gun permit, or a hunter's license, or boater's license, etc.....but you mess up, you lose it and pay the consequences and become another statistic. It should be no different for croc, hots or giant snakes.

[EL Ziggy]

Well said StR.

[millertime89]

What SotR said. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[red ink]

A licensing system for ALL reptiles isn't that bad... we still survive.

On an interesting point... there's an addendum added to our license requirements. We are legally bound to keep any reptile we purchase on license for 6 months.

Why would this be of any interest?

I sold one of my geckos to a kid last Saturday... guess which gecko appeared in an advert fro a $100 more than they paid on Sunday night?

The kid has now been caught out on it and no one would deal with him from now on for "flipping" once it got out on one of the forums that he did that. He has since taken the ad down but if a sale did go through from he ad then he would have been liable to have his license stripped and his animals confiscated by the governing body for a breach of his license conditions.

The six month moratorium also stops impulse buying from pet shops... as well as the fact that a pets hop will not sell you a reptile if you are not licensed (pet shops themselves are licensed therefore the care fall under regulatory restrictions - which we can inform the govt. Say... if the BDs don't have a basking light etc etc and they will get a visit from the governing body to check that they are providing the regulatory care, usually results in a fine if found to be in breach). Neither can you legally as a breeder sell to an unlicensed person as all transactions are recorded in a record book and we send a census back to the regulatory body each year off all our trades and transactions plus the exact numbers of animals and species we currently have.

As far as the info of numbers of keepers Vs what the info can be used for by the govt or animal rights activist?

Imagine the lobbying power the shear numbers of reptile keepers can have with the govt if they had cold hard facts of the numbers (not to mention the revenue they could make from licensing fees).

[SSSSnakes]

July 4th will be here Fri. What ever happened to? "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says has been given to all human beings by their Creator, and for which governments are created to protect.

My keeping reptiles is my pursuit of happiness.

[StudentoReptile]

July 4th will be here Fri. What ever happened to? "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says has been given to all human beings by their Creator, and for which governments are created to protect.

My keeping reptiles is my pursuit of happiness.

It is when people abuse those so-called "unalienable rights" you speak of that we run into an issue. Its fine that you are free to speak your mind, and practice your own religious belief system (or choose not to have one at all!), your right to protect yourself and your family from oppression or home invasion, or make sure you a half-way decent education before you are an adult.

But when that wonderful document was written centuries ago, they really were not thinking of teenage sociopaths going on shooting sprees in schools or people keeping giant snakes, were they?
---
I really do feel people take the Declaration of Independence out of context to mean more than it did and tote it around to say they are entitled to do whatever the hell they want as long as it does not infringe on anyone else. The bottom line is that this hobby HAS infringed upon on others.

[FWK]

The issue here seems to run quite a bit deeper than simply the dangers of keeping, either to the keeper or anyone else. Some of y'all seem to be a bit confused as to what freedom really is and what your rights are. The more of your writing I read StudentoReptile (not just in this thread) the more convinced I become that you are simply resigned to your fate, that you believe our government really has the right to take your so called privileges at will. It is as if you are a child and the government your parents. You have no real rights, only the privilege to do as your parents say because they offer you what you call your rights to food, water, shelter etc. Where I come from the government works for me. I get up every day and go to work, I pay the taxes that keeps the government functioning and I vote for people to represent me and my interests in the various levels of government from city officials all the way up. The system is far from perfect but it is hands down the best in the world and I am damn proud to be a part of it. Some of the rights you mentioned are protected in our constitution including free speech and the right to vote. I do not believe I have an innate right to food, if I was to decide I didn't want to work and I had no money to buy food the government should not be required to feed me. Like the old saying, better to starve a free man than be a fat slave, eh? The right to own firearms is also a constitutionally protected, not a luxury as you claim. Our rights as citizens of a free country go far beyond the groundwork laid out in the constitution, just because the constitution doesn't outline the right to keep a reptile as a pet you think the government has the right to take my reptiles? Where I come from freedom means you have to right to just about whatever you please so long as you do not infringe on the rights of the next guy. In other words everybody, and I mean every human being regardless of race, creed, religion etc., is equal and has the right to pursue whatever in life makes them happy. Unless, of course, they prove themselves unequal (violent criminals, sexual predators, etc.) in which case they can lose just about all their rights including freedom. So, to get back to more the topic at hand, does keeping pet reptiles in any way infringe on the rights of my neighbor? I think we can rule out any interruption to ones daily life caused by excessive noise or other issues, the only question seems to be safety. Do these animals pose a legitimate threat to my neighbors life, limb or family? Fortunately we already have decades of statics to look back on and the numbers are clear and undeniable (despite what The Humane Society would so vehemently argue). No, these animals do not pose a legitimate threat to my neighbor in any way. Alright, maybe the keepers themselves need to be protected. Do these animals pose such an obscene danger to the hobbyist themselves that we should consider protecting the herpetoculturists from themselves? Again the answer is clearly no. Reptiles, either due to shear mass or by venom, pose virtually no threat to anyone outside the home they are kept in and very little threat to the people who keep them properly. I see no reason to reason to ban any reptile from the pet industry in the US due to safety concerns. The only valid argument would then be the threat of invasive species and only a hand full of species pose a real threat in this regard, most already are banned. So again (and probably for the last time here), I maintain that I believe people should be free to keep just about anything as long as proper care and security is provided.

I should note that I do not currently keep hots or giants and have no plans to ever keep exotic hots or true giants. A few of the smaller hots native to my part of the country are hopefully in my future though. I still believe others should be free to do what makes them happy even if it is something I personally have no interest in, if Cobras or Burms make you happy then go for it. As has already been mentioned the problem with passing any type of legislation regulating reptiles due to safety concerns is the fact that groups that hate pets in general will use it as ammunition in their next campaign. Say we agree to a licensing system, the next step is obvious. These animals are so dangerous we require people who keep them be licensed, why not just ban them altogether? One step at at time they will pave the way to ban all the pets they can, species by species if they have to. As we have already established the majority of the general public is afraid of reptiles due to ignorance and most will not hesitate to vote to ban what they do not understand out to fear.

[StudentoReptile]

FWK, I think you misread me a little.

First of all, I never said there should be a ban on any species. I DID say in an earlier post that I personally felt that crocodilians should be made so readily available to the general public, and even gave a very exemptions.
---
Regarding everything else you said...

We can debate rights vs privileges until the cows come home. I know millions of die-hard of Americans who will cling desperately to their Declaration of Independence and their Bill of Rights, and fervently believe those two documents will shield them from anything that oppresses their ability to do or say in this country. I am terribly sorry to burst that naive fantastical little bubble, but it is quite simply not that black and white, nor cut and dry.

Yes, you have freedom of speech. You can walk to any street corner and say whatever your pretty little heart or dirty little mind desires if you choose. However, depending on the circumstances, you may have to pay consequences for what you said. Nobody oppressed you from saying what you said. But you have to answer for what comes out of your mouth (or what gets typed under your username!).
---
Now...as a reptile hobbyist, I'm with you. I know how little of a risk reptiles pose to the general public....just as I know how little of a risk law-abiding gun-owners pose. My fundamental stance is punish the offenders and leave the law-abiding citizens alone. I totally agree outright bans are no-good and completely ineffective.

But some folks are living in a dream world. If you think just because you pay your taxes, and never got a speeding ticket, and your dogs are always on a leash, your lawn is always mowed, and you got the stars and stripes waving in your front yard, Uncle Sam has no right to take away something that ain't a problem to anyone....guess what? I agree with you on a philosophical level. But I'm also a realist. Just because I agree with you on principles does not mean that THEY do! And it isn't going to stop them from taking away whatever they want, because guess what? If it would, why did we get 4 species of constrictors put on the Lacey Act, hmmm? Where did the Declaration of Independence and Bill o' Rights come into play when 9 species of boas and pythons were on the block with USFWS? Apparently your "RIGHTS" can be taken away, Mr. Tax-payer.

And look around, they're not stopping. They're still trying to add 5 more species, and seems like every time we turn around, another state level legislature is popping up. Maybe not every bill goes through, but it does not stop them from trying.
---
Look, I want to keep my herps just like anyone else. But ignoring the facts is folly. I said it in another thread, and I'll say again: legislature threatening our ability to keep herps is going to continue coming down the pike. You have 4 choices on how you're going to deal with it:

1) Denial - ignore it or pretend it does not affect you =
2) Resignation - rollover and just accept whatever comes, only keeping what is legal = passively unhelpful
3) Violation - deliberately disobeying any such law or ordnance that affects you because you feel it is unjust. This really does not help you or the rest of the hobby, because WHEN you inevitably get caught, it makes everyone look bad.
4) React - Stay updated with impending and current laws, actively but professionally oppose the unreasonable ones, and lobby for reasonable alternatives for both sides (compromise?) - [BTW, this is my option]


Sorry, the free America that existed 40+ yrs ago does not exist anymore. I wish it did, but it does not. You can go hunker down in your snake room basement, and clutch your shotgun, thinking "They can take my pythons over my dead body!"....or you can crawl out of your hole, stop whining whether you really are entitled own a reptile as you do an education, and actually get an involved with a herp club somewhere. If there's not one around, start one. That's what I did. They're actually kinda fun. You go and meet and interact with REAL reptile people in person (at least once monthly) and educate the general public, and also set goals like revising city or state-level ordinances to beat back stuff like this. It sure beats sharing photos on social media and arguing on forums.

[54bogger]

FWK, I think you misread me a little.

First of all, I never said there should be a ban on any species. I DID say in an earlier post that I personally felt that crocodilians should be made so readily available to the general public, and even gave a very exemptions.
---
Regarding everything else you said...

We can debate rights vs privileges until the cows come home. I know millions of die-hard of Americans who will cling desperately to their Declaration of Independence and their Bill of Rights, and fervently believe those two documents will shield them from anything that oppresses their ability to do or say in this country. I am terribly sorry to burst that naive fantastical little bubble, but it is quite simply not that black and white, nor cut and dry.

Yes, you have freedom of speech. You can walk to any street corner and say whatever your pretty little heart or dirty little mind desires if you choose. However, depending on the circumstances, you may have to pay consequences for what you said. Nobody oppressed you from saying what you said. But you have to answer for what comes out of your mouth (or what gets typed under your username!).
---
Now...as a reptile hobbyist, I'm with you. I know how little of a risk reptiles pose to the general public....just as I know how little of a risk law-abiding gun-owners pose. My fundamental stance is punish the offenders and leave the law-abiding citizens alone. I totally agree outright bans are no-good and completely ineffective.

But some folks are living in a dream world. If you think just because you pay your taxes, and never got a speeding ticket, and your dogs are always on a leash, your lawn is always mowed, and you got the stars and stripes waving in your front yard, Uncle Sam has no right to take away something that ain't a problem to anyone....guess what? I agree with you on a philosophical level. But I'm also a realist. Just because I agree with you on principles does not mean that THEY do! And it isn't going to stop them from taking away whatever they want, because guess what? If it would, why did we get 4 species of constrictors put on the Lacey Act, hmmm? Where did the Declaration of Independence and Bill o' Rights come into play when 9 species of boas and pythons were on the block with USFWS? Apparently your "RIGHTS" can be taken away, Mr. Tax-payer.

And look around, they're not stopping. They're still trying to add 5 more species, and seems like every time we turn around, another state level legislature is popping up. Maybe not every bill goes through, but it does not stop them from trying.
---

Look, I want to keep my herps just like anyone else. But ignoring the facts is folly. I said it in another thread, and I'll say again: legislature threatening our ability to keep herps is going to continue coming down the pike. You have 4 choices on how you're going to deal with it:

1) Denial - ignore it or pretend it does not affect you =
2) Resignation - rollover and just accept whatever comes, only keeping what is legal = passively unhelpful
3) Violation - deliberately disobeying any such law or ordnance that affects you because you feel it is unjust. This really does not help you or the rest of the hobby, because WHEN you inevitably get caught, it makes everyone look bad.
4) React - Stay updated with impending and current laws, actively but professionally oppose the unreasonable ones, and lobby for reasonable alternatives for both sides (compromise?) - [BTW, this is my option]

Sorry, the free America that existed 40+ yrs ago does not exist anymore. I wish it did, but it does not. You can go hunker down in your snake room basement, and clutch your shotgun, thinking "They can take my pythons over my dead body!"....or you can crawl out of your hole, stop whining whether you really are entitled own a reptile as you do an education, and actually get an involved with a herp club somewhere. If there's not one around, start one. That's what I did. They're actually kinda fun. You go and meet and interact with REAL reptile people in person (at least once monthly) and educate the general public, and also set goals like revising city or state-level ordinances to beat back stuff like this. It sure beats sharing photos on social media and arguing on forums.


I kinda like the shotgun option!lol

[StudentoReptile]

I kinda like the shotgun option!lol

Well, it has a certain appeal, I agree...

But here's a few downsides to that approach:

whats the fun of keeping stuff if you always have to be discreet and you can't show it off?
let's face it, you'll eventually be caught (remember option #3 of last post)
if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem

----
I'll give you two examples of people I know...

Guy #1 has a mouth, personality and mindset like many here; does not believe the govt has any right to tell him what he can or cannot keep or catch. He's been busted a few times for possessing illegal herps. Now he's on our game warden's radar. He's a little wiser nowadays, but unfortunately, his past experience has hurt his chances for being able to work with the system with obtaining the licenses/permits to possess what he wants to keep.

Guy #2: fundamentally believes the same way, doesn't agree with a lot of our laws, but has been fortunate enough for many yrs to work with local govt and game service, so he is able to obtain said permits and possess species many are not able to, as well as have connections some do not have. He may not agree with the system...but he knows how to work with it.

Just more food for thought...

[SSSSnakes]

Well, it has a certain appeal, I agree...

But here's a few downsides to that approach:

whats the fun of keeping stuff if you always have to be discreet and you can't show it off?
let's face it, you'll eventually be caught (remember option #3 of last post)
if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem

----
I'll give you two examples of people I know...

Guy #1 has a mouth, personality and mindset like many here; does not believe the govt has any right to tell him what he can or cannot keep or catch. He's been busted a few times for possessing illegal herps. Now he's on our game warden's radar. He's a little wiser nowadays, but unfortunately, his past experience has hurt his chances for being able to work with the system with obtaining the licenses/permits to possess what he wants to keep.

Guy #2: fundamentally believes the same way, doesn't agree with a lot of our laws, but has been fortunate enough for many yrs to work with local govt and game service, so he is able to obtain said permits and possess species many are not able to, as well as have connections some do not have. He may not agree with the system...but he knows how to work with it.

Just more food for thought...

I fall under the category of guy#2. But I have to disagree with;


whats the fun of keeping stuff if you always have to be discreet and you can't show it off?

I keep my snake because I like them and have no need to show others. I show other only for educational purposes and to keep my licenses. I would be just as happy to keep all my snakes out of the public's eye and to enjoy them for just me.

[aaron_cg]

I'm all for having to pass an educational type class to license for the big constrictors, and hots. The issue runs into who regulates it. Obviously FWS can't.

As far as what can and can't, as long as you can provide proper care, then there really shouldn't be a restriction. Common sense.

And as another user said, and I have been saying for years, ignorance breeds fear.

Just my opinion.

[FWK]

Well said StudentoReptile, although in stark contrast to opinions you previously expressed, finally some common ground. I deal with so many paranoid, fundamentally anti-American, government hating nut jobs in the firearm community that I may be a bit quick to judge, but I do not think I misread you. I had a pretty good idea of who you were by the way you express yourself. In the past couple of days I've done a bit of digging and to my delight I was able to confirm most of my inklings.

From this thread:

The bottom line is that this hobby HAS infringed upon on others.
It only stands to reason that owning and caring for a large and/or venomous animal should require a licensing system as well.
I even think large lizard species like iguanas and monitors should be regulated, but I know that's going to be a hard sell (especially iguanas).

You are clearly, by these statements at least, pro-regulation and not just willing to compromise. The first rule of war is to know your enemy. You insist the government is the enemy here but I know that you know better. I know you know better because I've been able to track down (not that is was difficult) and read many years worth of your blogs and other random postings on a variety of sites. You have said most everything I have said in this thread yourself in the past. So either your opinions have changed over the years, you are simply argumentative and/or enjoy a debate for the sake of debate (which I understand, I enjoy a good debate myself) or you actually on some level believe that people should not have the right to keep (I have a few ideas as to which and why but I am pretty sure you are going to clear it up for me shortly).

I am sure now that you and I stand on the same fundamentals on this matter (by and large at least and despite the quotes above) and will refrain from discussing these issues any further with you in this thread. I think I've made my opinions here clear, I'd like to hear from more of the community and will clear the floor.

[aaron_cg]

A licensing system for ALL reptiles isn't that bad... we still survive.

On an interesting point... there's an addendum added to our license requirements. We are legally bound to keep any reptile we purchase on license for 6 months.

Why would this be of any interest?

I sold one of my geckos to a kid last Saturday... guess which gecko appeared in an advert fro a $100 more than they paid on Sunday night?

The kid has now been caught out on it and no one would deal with him from now on for "flipping" once it got out on one of the forums that he did that. He has since taken the ad down but if a sale did go through from he ad then he would have been liable to have his license stripped and his animals confiscated by the governing body for a breach of his license conditions.

The six month moratorium also stops impulse buying from pet shops... as well as the fact that a pets hop will not sell you a reptile if you are not licensed (pet shops themselves are licensed therefore the care fall under regulatory restrictions - which we can inform the govt. Say... if the BDs don't have a basking light etc etc and they will get a visit from the governing body to check that they are providing the regulatory care, usually results in a fine if found to be in breach). Neither can you legally as a breeder sell to an unlicensed person as all transactions are recorded in a record book and we send a census back to the regulatory body each year off all our trades and transactions plus the exact numbers of animals and species we currently have.

As far as the info of numbers of keepers Vs what the info can be used for by the govt or animal rights activist?

Imagine the lobbying power the shear numbers of reptile keepers can have with the govt if they had cold hard facts of the numbers (not to mention the revenue they could make from licensing fees).

I like this idea, with a few modifications...

For example, I am a partner with my local SPCA as a reptile rescue. I have access to a vet who checks out the animal, and once it is cleared by him, and gets a few meals in him, I rehome them.

Now, I make sure whoever is getting them, understands the care for the animals, and if need be, has the proper permits. In Texas you need a Controlled Exotic Snake Permit to legally own a retic, burm, anaconda, or rock python, as well as any non native hots.

I also warn them that if I see the animal being flipped on Craigslist, I will be able to confiscate the animal. All is legally binding with a contract that I had a lawyer friend make for me. So far, no issues.

[Sublimeballs]

This thread also begs the question/debate of rights vs privileges.

Since when did it become established that people felt they were entitled to own or possess any animal they please? [see various definitions for the word "right" (noun)]

Versus a privilege, which in reality, is what this is. We got this, free of charge, decades ago, but now, we've done a piss-poor job of maintaining it, and slowly, we're are getting these privileges taken away [Ex: take any recent state or federal legislative action against the possession of exotic pets or reptiles specifically].

Bottom line: you have a right to free speech, to an education, to food, water, shelter, to reproduce, to proper housing, to vote, to freedom (as opposed to slavery), etc. and so on. These are amenities and civil rights as a sentient being in a free world.

Everything else, such as cars (or specifically the license to operate one), guns, or pets, are luxuries. You do not require them to survive, and the first two, if not used properly, are (obviously) hazardous. Thus, a licensing system is in place, and if you abuse the privilege of owning and operating one, you get the privilege revoked (among other things).

It only stands to reason that owning and caring for a large and/or venomous animal should require a licensing system as well. Not only if you do not maintain the animal properly, there is a welfare issue to be considered, but if the animal is not securely contained or handled properly, there is again, a risk of hazard. If you abuse the privilege, and you or another human being (or someone else's pet) gets injured or killed by your animal, then your privilege should be revoked.

This is why this is touchy topic, but this is my opinion. Its that simple. Its doesn't take much to get a driver's license, or a gun permit, or a hunter's license, or boater's license, etc.....but you mess up, you lose it and pay the consequences and become another statistic. It should be no different for croc, hots or giant snakes.


Very well put.

Also there has been an incident with an escaped hot biting someone. I posted it not too long ago. Green mamba got someone in Florida.

[SSSSnakes]

Very well put.

Also there has been an incident with an escaped hot biting someone. I posted it not too long ago. Green mamba got someone in Florida.

Fla has training and licensing requirements. I guess no matter what you do, you still are not going to weed out the idiots.

[SSSSnakes]

I've been in the snake business for over 35 years, and lets face it, all the bans and licensing is not going to stop people from owning what they want. Most of us know of people with illegal reptiles and we say nothing. Even the regulating agencies look the other way, unless it makes headlines. When something becomes banned, then an underground market opens up increasing the price of the reptile. Having the government regulate us is not the answer. We need to regulate each other. Stop selling HOTs and giants to just anyone. Make sure the person buying the snake is capable of properly taking care of it. Our own industry is at fault, because most of the people who sell reptiles don't care who buys them just as long as they make money. Lets be honest with ourselves, we know this is true.

When I go to Hamburg, PA expo and buy HOTs, no one ever asked what state I live in, or if I have a license. They just want the sale. I sent a friend who was 18 years old last time to the expo to pick up a cobra for me and they never ever questioned his age. The only person to ever question me and want to see my license was a private dealer that I purchase HOTs from his house. He is the example of the people who regulate each other, and we need more like him.

[StudentoReptile]

You are clearly, by these statements at least, pro-regulation and not just willing to compromise. The first rule of war is to know your enemy. You insist the government is the enemy here but I know that you know better.

Yep.

So either your opinions have changed over the years, you are simply argumentative and/or enjoy a debate for the sake of debate (which I understand, I enjoy a good debate myself) or you actually on some level believe that people should not have the right to keep

Actually, all three are true.
1.) Yes, my opinions have changed some over the yrs. I was once very pro-herp-keeping rights, and pro-USARK, and anti-regulation, etc. The more I observe the past few yrs and the more I research I have in the past 3-4 yrs has changed my views on the hobby and industry. I know it is very pessimistic, but someone tell me I am wrong. I know there are good people out there, but they are in a tight minority. The vast majority is greed-driven and product-driven (much like the rest of our society and world).
2.) Yes, I like to argue for the heck of it, and sometimes, I can easily argue both sides of a debate, too!;)
3.) As mentioned above, I do not believe a person has a "right" or entitlement to possess or keep any animal just because they happen to like that particular animal.
---

All in all, good thread, and I hope it got some people thinking.

In the big picture, changes will not happen unless enough people rally together and work toward those goals. Of course, irresponsible keepers will still make bad decisions, which will always reflect poorly on the entire hobby. Unfortunately, as long as [most] hobbyists are being REACTIVE: only focused on protecting their "right" to keep genetic mutations and giant snakes, etc, and keep going on buying/selling snakes, while not being PROACTIVE: also doing education, being aware of conservation, and trying to protect our ability to keep other species (native, etc)....no one's really helping, are they?
---

Here's some more food for thought...

A photo circulated the web recently depicting a truckload of Uromastyx lizards collected and killed, allegedly for bushmeat. The herp community went nuts, claiming it was BS, and the lizards were collected for novelty or whatever, and even if they were used for bushmeat, how come there is no regulation on the numbers collected to help conserve that species of Uromastyx?

My question is: how is that any different than what we do for ball pythons? We collect and import thousands of BPs every yrs with no regulation, all in the name of the pet trade. Where's the conservation going on in the ball market?

[note: I have a ball python that I've had for over 25 yrs. He's the only one I have, and I don't breed them and never plan to own any more. Just wanted to say I'm not trying to knock the BP market - just using it as an example. If you prefer, insert any other popular species in its place such as leopard geckos, etc]

[Georgia]

Heres my stand...

1. If you are old enough to go to war for your country...you can keep any snake/reptile you see fit.

2. You can argue that they can escape and bite someone...well a car can "escape" and run you over everytime you walk outside.

There is far more dangerous things out there than a snake or lizard. Whats the difference when in almost every state there is venomous snakes in the wild? You can still get bit.

Its all about our government controlling us and making money on it in the process.

[Georgia]

I will never bow down to TYRANTS who seek to trample my liberties as a free AMERICAN citizen....

[Georgia]

@StudentoReptile

WHO is to say I dont have the right? A supreme ruler? A God? Or just another power hungry politician who is under the false impression that they ARE the law? Sorry, not gonna happen. I WILL NOT be ran over by legislation. Throw me in jail...ill bond out and still keep my snakes. YES i am entitled to keep them. Some of us fought for the right to have freedom to do so and will fight again to keep it that way.

[EL Ziggy]

And what gives anyone the right to own and possess any creature? It's is not a right. It's a privilege and a responsibility to keep and care for an animal. We are not their owners or masters. Their right to live freely supercedes our desire to keep them in captivity. No matter how well we treat them or how much we may even love them, we are imposing our will on them aren't we? Are they not enslaved? If given the choice they would be free of all of us. We talk about how the big bad government is trying to trample/tread on our liberties and freedoms but not in the ways that matter most. Like allowing the all powerful billionaires and corporations to steal and hoard our collective wealth while ruling and destroying our planet with their greed, pollution and wars. And tell me again what you're going to fight the mighty governmental war machine with? AR's, shotguns, and pistols vs. omnipresent surveillance, missles, drones, bombs, chemical and biological weapons doesn't sound like much of a fight to me. We are a nation of laws and laws are required in any civilized society otherwise there will be chaos and anarchy. We can't all just do whatever we want, whenever we want, however we want without concern for the greater common good. There are rules in life. In home, at school, at work and in society. The problem is the leaders WE appoint and elect and the laws they're implementing at the commands of their real masters. In order for that to change WE have to do that through better education, personal responsibility, elections and effective legislation.

[Georgia]

To address your question...man has dominion over all creatures of the Earth. You can do as you see fit.

[EL Ziggy]

To address your question...man has dominion over all creatures of the Earth. You can do as you see fit.

Really, says who?

[SSSSnakes]

Really, says who?

Says GOD. And since we can not discuss religion on this forum, this should end this topic as it can only be a one sided topic because the mods. will remove it.

[EL Ziggy]

Says GOD. And since we can not discuss religion on this forum, this should end this topic as it can only be a one sided topic because the mods. will remove it.
Really? GOD said that? Again, says who? And what GOD are you referring to? What else did this GOD say? Lets keep the church and state seperate please. You're right though this isn't the forum for that discussion. On that note I resign. Best wishes all.

[red ink]

A "God" also says his followers have the right to jihad... see what happens when you take and believe the words of Santa Clause, sorry I mean "a God" to suit your own agendas.

[marvelfreak]

Ok i see your all starting to talk about me.(god) Let just keep my name out of this or i'll strike you all down with lighting. lol

[SSSSnakes]

As per the rulers of this forum, I no longer can continue this discussion. As I said it is now only one sided were I can not defend what I believe. The Mods need to lock this thread.

[StudentoReptile]

Heres my stand...
1. If you are old enough to go to war for your country...you can keep any snake/reptile you see fit.

Philosophically, I agree, brother...but legally, it ain't so. Find the law that makes your statement true, and I'll eat my hat.

2. You can argue that they can escape and bite someone...well a car can "escape" and run you over everytime you walk outside.

False. A car [or a gun for that matter] is an inanimate object, and cannot "spring" to life and escape the confines of your garage [or gun case] when you are away. A reptile [or a dog or any other animal] is a living thing, and it has a mind of its own & can always seek escape/test boundaries; thus, it is the keeper's responsibility to ensure it is confined properly.

There is far more dangerous things out there than a snake or lizard. Whats the difference when in almost every state there is venomous snakes in the wild? You can still get bit.

I agree totally. But there is a difference in 1.) venomous snakes in the wild, (or any other wild animal), which we do not have control over, and 2.) animals that are intentionally kept in captivity, which we DO have control over.

You can (within reasonable bounds) control what your dog does: you keep him confined in a secure fence, or him secured by a proper run or chain (if your laws allow such). If he gets loose, you are liable. It is no different for livestock, and it should be no different for exotic animals, including reptiles, especially giant constrictors. The argument that wildlife could or could not present a higher risk to public safety is a weak one, because that is an uncontrollable variable.

Its all about our government controlling us and making money on it in the process.

I also agree. In the same token, most of conservation efforts are funded by govt entities, mainly state-level fish & game agencies sourced mostly by hunting & fishing licenses, as well as trapping permits, hunter education courses, etc. So it can be a matter of perspective, depending on where you live.

man has dominion over all creatures of the Earth. You can do as you see fit.

[looks at the entire planet, including the current state of this country] and we're doing a marvelous job of that, aren't we? :rolleyes:

[Georgia]

Im sorry for derailing a thread... Just my "opinion".

[Georgia]

But also dogs nd cats.send more people to the E.R and kill more people in 1 year than ALL reptile attacks. So should all dogs and cats be on a permit system and regulated? Tell me when the last pack of snakes mauled someone to death...

[SSSSnakes]

But also dogs nd cats.send more people to the E.R and kill more people in 1 year than ALL reptile attacks. So should all dogs and cats be on a permit system and regulated? Tell me when the last pack of snakes mauled someone to death...

Amen Brother

[StudentoReptile]

Im sorry for derailing a thread... Just my "opinion".

Nothing to apologize for. You had an opinion and spoke up.

I for one, do not feel you derailed the thread, because you brought up some interesting points that many people think about. I merely countered what the difference between wild nature and captive animals was.

But also dogs nd cats.send more people to the E.R and kill more people in 1 year than ALL reptile attacks. So should all dogs and cats be on a permit system and regulated?

I work as an animal control officer, and again, I'm with you. There is a lot of people in this world [lots of America near the very top of that list] who have no business owning any kind of pet period. I agree dogs definitely should be on a permit system as well, but no politician is going to touch it with a 39-ft-pole. Trust me, I wish they would. I wish they would implement a more strict system for to license dog breeders, and enforce everyone who is not to spay/neuter. But sadly I do not see it happening anytime soon.
---


Again, we can sit here and talk about how much dogs and deer and vending machines are more dangerous to people than reptiles [Seriously, statistically, more people get killed by knocking over vending machines because it took their dollar - compared to snakes!], and we can point our fingers at the govt for taking away our freedoms, and we can deflect blame to HSUS for being anti-pet ownership and PETA for euthanizing more animals than they adopt out, and we can even gripe about USARK for not doing a good enough job for fighting for our "rights" to keep all our herps....and I'm not necessarily saying some of that is not accurate...BUT

But in the end, all we are doing is just trying to deflect blame to someone else, trying to take focus off ourselves, when in reality, most hobbyists still do not have the boons to admit that WE were the cause of all these problems and still are today. Maybe not every person is a complete scumbag or a flipper or one of those irresponsible neglectful twits who dumped a snake in the swamp, or didn't have a secure enough cage....but if all you do is go to shows, and buy/sell/trade herps, and just click "Like" whenever you see something cool on social media and never do any real research on a particular issue, you are part of this merry-go-round. I know because I was part of it, too, not so long ago. I got caught up in the same stuff and just believed whatever was told, and bred my mutations, and donated my money to USARK like a good little snake breeder because thats what everyone else did and by golly, I have a right to keep whatever I want, right? Well, it ain't quite that way. And the more folks buck up and realize that we are not innocent and that the blame-deflection game is not going to work, the better and more changes might be seen.

[StudentoReptile]

and I forgot to touch on this point last night, it came to me later...

I do not understand where this mentality comes from, but it simply is not true. Just because you pay taxes or served in the military does not make you exempt from abiding from the law as a private citizen. Period. I get this all the time as an ACO. Your dog runs loose, you receive a ticket, end of story. The fact that you "pay taxes" is irrelevant.

I know there are certain places that allow discounts & privileges to veterans and the military, but guess what? When you are off duty, you STILL have drive on the right side of the road & under the speed limit, you still got to abide by state hunting/game laws, and NO, you do not get keep whatever kind of animals you wish: lions, tigers, leopards, primates, giraffes, etc, or if the laws dictates, certain reptiles. I'm sorry, it ain't so. Believe me, trust me when I say I sincerely say that I appreciate all of you have or currently do serve to protect our country. I have a brother who currently serves in the Air Force, so I know. But it does not give him special privileges to keep tigers and bazookas in his spare time.

[Thorny]

Lets ignore the fact I am new.

I was browsing HSUS's website for negative snake propaganda and one of their arguments was that only 1% of reptiles are still with their original owner within a year of their initial purchase. Frankly, if true, that would not surprise me.

I think impulse buying does more harm to reptiles than anything else. If reptile sales at pet shops could be banned wouldn't things be better for both reptiles and those who keep them? Those who bought the reptile would have to be knowledgeable enough to go to a breeder or at least an expo and they would have to think about this for more than five minutes. The person they would be getting the animal from would likely actually know about its care and could actually answer any questions the buyer might have.

Currently we have people who want something cool buying iguanas and retics from pet shop employees who do not know proper care for these animals at triple the price they would from a breeder because they put less than 10 minutes of thought into it. The coolness wears off and the animal is left without a home, sick or dead from husbandry issues, or ends up being almost impossible to work with because they were never held as a juvenile.

Same is more or less true for dogs or cats. I would not be surprised if 50% of dogs have to be rehomed before reaching adulthood and no one is convincing me they put thought into buying a puppy at a pet store when they could have got one for half the price straight from the breeder.

I honestly have a thing for hots but I know I am not in a situation to take care of them. The private owners I have met are not as responsible as one would hope and most have been tagged at some point but to be fair they do know how to take care of them. I obviously do not want a lot of red tape between me and my dream of owning hots, if it is ever to be realized, but I would have a hard time objecting to a reasonable permitting process. I have no interest in the true giants but I respect their owners and am well aware that bans on the giants could put my hopes of keeping hots in jeopardy.

Maybe we could have a mandatory wait period for purchasing a pet like we have for guns and abortions?

As to things I do not think should be kept. The majority of diurnal lizards, turtles, and tortoises cannot be expected to have a full and healthy life by the average person who buys them. At least I know that a fair number of the idiots getting crocodilians and hots know exactly what they are in for.

[Georgia]

Technically, you can.own a Bazooka or Rocket Launcher, just not the rockets :-)

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree in regards to
all the restrictions and control of a citizens choice of snakes when the focus should be on
more pressing and immediate threats.

[StudentoReptile]

Technically, you can.own a Bazooka or Rocket Launcher, just not the rockets :-)

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree in regards to
all the restrictions and control of a citizens choice of snakes when the focus should be on
more pressing and immediate threats.

Yeah, I mean where do you draw the line? Is it okay to own a tiger or a chimpanzee?
---
And what immediate threats are we talking about here? Gun control? Vehicle accidents? Drug trafficking? Terrorists?

What makes you think those threats are not being focused on? I'm just asking...

[Mikoh4792]

man has dominion over all creatures of the Earth. You can do as you see fit.

That is an unsubstantiated assertion. Why does man have dominion over all creatures of the earth?

[SSSSnakes]

That is an unsubstantiated assertion. Why does man have dominion over all creatures of the earth?

GOD said. Genesis 1:26-28

[EL Ziggy]

GOD said. Genesis 1:26-28

To each his own brother. Your beliefs are YOUR truth, not everyone's. You're totally entitled to believe whatever you want but not always to do whatever you want, and you definitely can't impose those beliefs on others.

[Sublimeballs]

To address your question...man has dominion over all creatures of the Earth. You can do as you see fit.

Umm....no, no creature is more or less important then any other. And this mind set is what is killing the earth.

Who cares about the oceans or rainforest....I've got opposeable thumbs.

[Mikoh4792]

GOD said. Genesis 1:26-28

Before going further into this discussion I want to point out it's not my intention to get into religious discussion, but rather my intention is to discuss the facts that support certain claims about humans and their relationship to other animals.


Now that, that's out of the way, could you demonstrate how you know this particular deity said this?

[franks]

Before going further into this discussion I want to point out it's not my intention to get into religious discussion, but rather my intention is to discuss the facts that support certain claims about humans and their relationship to other animals.


Now that, that's out of the way, could you demonstrate how you know this particular deity said this?

I love you Mikoh- but despite your disclaimer this challenge is a bit inflammatory. Whether or not our friends on this forum believe in Jehovah, Allah, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, anything or nothing, nobody should have to justify their beliefs or explain their religion to you or anyone else here.

The topic at hand:
It hard not to see both sides of this. Personally, I fear government regulations of many kinds because I do not like people telling me how I should live. However like student of reptile said- it's obvious that many people do need regulation. I grew up as a kid in NYC proper and for three summers in a row alligators were pulled out of a local pond by my house that we would all wade in, fish in, and play in. That is not right on different levels, one for the animal, and two for the potential people it can effect. Some people are just plain stupid. It is unfortunate. Some of this is our responsibility as hobbiests. I see many many adds to sell giant snakes, monitors, even gators, and a minute small fraction of these sellers will demand proof of housing of any sort.

[charlesc84]

Okay, I'm late here but I wanna throw my 2 cents in. All I can do is speak for myself, but my animals are healthy. I post pics all the time but nonetheless...


http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx223/charlesc84/10489899_10204390045215734_5216894439503407202_n_z psbef81c05.jpg (http://s758.photobucket.com/user/charlesc84/media/10489899_10204390045215734_5216894439503407202_n_z psbef81c05.jpg.html)

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx223/charlesc84/1549294_10204160275471634_1042191188965526813_n_zp s6ae5b300.jpg (http://s758.photobucket.com/user/charlesc84/media/1549294_10204160275471634_1042191188965526813_n_zp s6ae5b300.jpg.html)

Do they look unhealthy or abused to anyone? Why do we direct so much negativity towards our own hobby?
Now personally, I do not find raising THESE reptiles to be a very difficult task that should be entrusted to the most experienced herpetologist or zoologist.
We can all sit here and talk about what should and shouldn't be regulated, but the people do the regulating DO NOT know the difference between between an Amazon Tree Boa and an Eyelash Viper. For example, how can they be trusted to regulate Retics? Especially with all the different dwarf localities being bred now. I think most of us are okay with REASONABLE regulations, so long as they are done by people in touch with the hobby, and of course what's best for the animals as well. But people who think ball pythons are going to eat your neighbors and kill the family dog are not the ones who be trusted in doing so.
Also, whether we all like or not, there's always going to be people who mistrust and abuse their pets. There's bad seeds in all walks of life... That's why I posted the pics of my animals, to show that we have to think positively and not beat ourselves up over things out of our control.

[Mikoh4792]

I love you Mikoh- but despite your disclaimer this challenge is a bit inflammatory. Whether or not our friends on this forum believe in Jehovah, Allah, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, anything or nothing, nobody should have to justify their beliefs or explain their religion to you or anyone else here.

Which is why I don't want to have a religious discussion. It will only go that direction if the "other side" chooses to do so. When you have beliefs that will affect other people then one does need to justify their beliefs. Bringing "man has dominion over all creatures" into an argument is not keeping one's beliefs to themselves, and therefore is open to criticism.

No one needs to justify or explain their beliefs to me, until they bring it into the argument. Keep your beliefs to yourself and there is no problem.

edit: It's not inflammatory Frank. It is rational discussion and criticism during an argument.

[franks]

No I understand. That post just kind of slipped it in there lol. Fact is whether you agree that statement is true or believe it to be false- although diametrically opposed both views are representative of a person's belief system and the discussion of them cannot really lead this conversation anywhere but into a religious discussion/argument. There is nothing wrong with that btw, and your question is certainly vital and valid towards the core of that issue. I just feel (as per the sites guidlines) that this is not the place to hold the discussion that would result from attempting to answer that question.

[Mikoh4792]

No I understand. That post just kind of slipped it in there lol. Fact is whether you agree that statement is true or believe it to be false- although diametrically opposed both views are representative of a person's belief system and the discussion of them cannot really lead this conversation anywhere but into a religious discussion/argument. There is nothing wrong with that btw, and your question is certainly vital and valid towards the core of that issue. I just feel (as per the sites guidlines) that this is not the place to hold the discussion that would result from attempting to answer that question.

I guess it's right on the edge of religious conversation... but I really don't think it needs to go that direction. I'll just wait and see Georgia's reply and decide whether or not we can further the discussion without breaking forum rules.

[SSSSnakes]

Which is why I don't want to have a religious discussion. It will only go that direction if the "other side" chooses to do so. When you have beliefs that will affect other people then one does need to justify their beliefs. Bringing "man has dominion over all creatures" into an argument is not keeping one's beliefs to themselves, and therefore is open to criticism.

No one needs to justify or explain their beliefs to me, until they bring it into the argument. Keep your beliefs to yourself and there is no problem.

edit: It's not inflammatory Frank. It is rational discussion and criticism during an argument.

What I believe is my personal choice and I have not pushed it on anyone. A question was asked and I answered it. Asked to back up what my answer was and I did. I can't discuss religion here so this conversation is one sided. Have the Mods remove the restrictions and I will justify what I believe, otherwise the topic should be closed.

[Mikoh4792]

What I believe is my personal choice and I have not pushed it on anyone. A question was asked and I answered it. Asked to back up what my answer was and I did. I can't discuss religion here so this conversation is one sided. Have the Mods remove the restrictions and I will justify what I believe, otherwise the topic should be closed.

I forgot I was responding to two people. For a second i thought it was Georgia(the original proponent) who wrote "god said".

[SSSSnakes]

I forgot I was responding to two people. For a second i thought it was Georgia(the original proponent) who wrote "god said".

I was the original person who said, God made that statement. Georgia just quoted the statement.

[Georgia]

Like i said...i didnt intend to derail the thread.

Bottomline is this. As with ANYTHING else...give the government an inch and they will take 20 miles.

Those that want restrictions and regulations are playing with fire.
They wont just stop with simple regulations. It will/is evolving into a total ban on ALL reptiles.

[Georgia]

Some may say, "bless god i dont have.any venomous or big snakes, its not gonna affect me, all i got is corn snakes". The big snakes and hots are just the start. What are you gonna do when EVERY reptile is banned? And its illegal to keep a cornsnake or gecko?

All legislation mutates into more...

[red ink]

Some may say, "bless god i dont have.any venomous or big snakes, its not gonna affect me, all i got is corn snakes". The big snakes and hots are just the start. What are you gonna do when EVERY reptile is banned? And its illegal to keep a cornsnake or gecko?

All legislation mutates into more...


They won't ban something they can make money from... hence suggestions of an agreed licensing system. If it cost $20 a year to keep reptiles, then that's a lot of money lining their pocket. It would also pacify their need/desire for governance.

[EL Ziggy]

Some may say, "bless god i dont have.any venomous or big snakes, its not gonna affect me, all i got is corn snakes". The big snakes and hots are just the start. What are you gonna do when EVERY reptile is banned? And its illegal to keep a cornsnake or gecko?

All legislation mutates into more...

What evidence do you have that the government wants to ban all reptiles? Why would they eliminate an international billion dollar enterprise? Do you have facts to support these claims or are these just beliefs based on a general distrust of government? There are a lot of our rights/liberties that are being threatened by government overreach, corruption, ineptitude and inaction, but I don't believe owning harmless reptiles is in jeopardy at all.

[Georgia]

Its simply a theory. But some harmless snake such as a BP is being suggested to be regulated...so why not everything else?

[SSSSnakes]

In NYC Ball Pythons are banned and in NJ to own a Ball Python you need a permit. As far as only banning snakes to make money, my Endangered & Threatened license, Venomous license & Large Reptile license are free. Only my Collect & Possess license cost money. It is not about money, it's about the government controlling us.

[Georgia]

In NYC Ball Pythons are banned and in NJ to own a Ball Python you need a permit. As far as only banning snakes to make money, my Endangered & Threatened license, Venomous license & Large Reptile license are free. Only my Collect & Possess license cost money. It is not about money, it's about the government controlling us.

Exactly. Its no secret. Control in EVERY aspect of our life is the goal. Venomous snakes our ofblittle concern to a politician. Theres way more to it than that. Ulterior motives.

[StudentoReptile]

In Georgia, its illegal to own corn snakes [native species]. Is that not a ban?

[Georgia]

In GA its illegal to own ANY Native Non-Venomous species.

[StudentoReptile]

In GA its illegal to own ANY Native Non-Venomous species.

Well, exactly. I knew that. My point being, they do not care how popular the snake is in the pet trade, if they find a reason, they can and will restrict people's ability to keep it. And how freaking popular are corn snakes?

There is rumor they'll do it here in Alabama as well, much to my dismay. And people wonder why I take the PROACTIVE approach.

[red ink]

In NYC Ball Pythons are banned and in NJ to own a Ball Python you need a permit. As far as only banning snakes to make money, my Endangered & Threatened license, Venomous license & Large Reptile license are free. Only my Collect & Possess license cost money. It is not about money, it's about the government controlling us.


Any of your licenses hinder you in any way from your hobby?

Do they have any benefit on a whole for reptile keeping as a hobby?

[SSSSnakes]

Any of your licenses hinder you in any way from your hobby?

Do they have any benefit on a whole for reptile keeping as a hobby?

I can only keep my licenses if I perform shows and exhibit the snakes. The snakes on the licenses can not be kept merely as pets.

[Georgia]

Yayyyyy thats sooooo much fun smfh.

[Georgia]

How is that benefiting the hobby? Oh wait...its not.

[StudentoReptile]

I can only keep my licenses if I perform shows and exhibit the snakes. The snakes on the licenses can not be kept merely as pets.

Can you clarify? If you did NOT perform public shows and exhibits, would you still require said licences just to keep said snakes in your home?

[SSSSnakes]

Can you clarify? If you did NOT perform public shows and exhibits, would you still require said licences just to keep said snakes in your home?

If I did not do the shows and exhibits, I would not be able to get the licenses at all. and not be able to keep the snakes. You have to have the licenses to keepthe snakes qand you have to have a reason to have the licenses. The 3 reason to have the licenses are, educational, exhibitional or scientific. You can not get a licenses to keep any of these reptiles as pets.

[robertjnovak59]

I think any legislation is ridiculous, the statistics dont back up the commonly believed conceptions about snakes. Pretty soon you won't be able to use a lawnmower without a permit. I dont know anyone with hots but I know a few people with giants, they aren't hard to find. Either they aren't that dangerous or the people that keep them are pretty responsible. Either way, there is no need to fix what isn't a problem. Until the numbers back up the claims, all reptiles should be legal.

[Georgia]

Tyranny in its rawest form

[EL Ziggy]

I believe people should be able to keep hots and giants as pets with proper training, a certified handlers license, and fair / sensible regulations. If you feel a rule or law is unjust then challenge it. That's a big part of the democratic process. With enough support you may even get the rule changed.

[CosmicOwl]

Hmm... this thread drifted into some weird territory.

If you think that the government is banning reptiles to control the populace, I think you're overestimating the coordination of the government. Most of these laws are passed on a state level, and they're passed out of irrational fears from the general population. Or in the case of certain states, to protect native animals. If the "government" really wanted to exert control over us, restricting the ownership of reptiles is pretty far down the list of ways to accomplish that goal.

I suppose this is my fault for not being explicit in my original post, but I was talking about animal welfare. Hence why I brought up wild caught hots and alligators being kept in kiddie pools. We can argue all day or which animals we have the "right" to possess, but that's not the point. The question is, does owning these animals result in a positive or negative outcome? Do the animals benefit or suffer? What are the impacts to the environment should these animals escape? And so forth.

[Jim Smith]

I think CosmicOwl is correct regarding the reasons for the restriction from keeping native species. The intent of the law is to protect the native animal populations, not to control people. Ask yourself, if people could collect wild caught specimens and sell them for good money, how much impact would that have on the reptile population. I live in Georgia and thus I can not keep any native non-venomous snakes. While I may like to keep some of them, this does not significantly impact me since I can purchase and keep any of of hundreds of other species available to me. As far as SSSnakes having to do shows and exhibits, I think that is a huge benefit to both the wild animals and the hobby. How often have you heard people making inaccurate and ignorant statements about snakes and why they kill every snake they find. That response is primarily due to ignorance. I believe that the shows and exhibits that Shane does helps educate people and very probably results in fewer snakes being killed and in fact introduces people to snakes in a different light that generates interest so that they may start keeping snakes as a hobby instead of listening to ignorant people spout off of why the only good snake is a dead snake. Requiring training and licenses to keep hots protects not only the handler (and family and friends) but also the snakes. If you don't think so, look at the record of the religious communities that use snakes in their services. The average life span of their wild-caught snakes is usually a couple of months at best. Then they're back out hunting for more to use until they die off. I'm not getting into the religious aspects here, only the lack of knowledge of animal husbandry which is ultimately hurting the snakes. Just one man's opinion.

[StudentoReptile]

Hmm... this thread drifted into some weird territory.

....

I suppose this is my fault for not being explicit in my original post, but I was talking about animal welfare. Hence why I brought up wild caught hots and alligators being kept in kiddie pools. We can argue all day or which animals we have the "right" to possess, but that's not the point. The question is, does owning these animals result in a positive or negative outcome? Do the animals benefit or suffer? What are the impacts to the environment should these animals escape? And so forth.

If the subject is welfare, then why limit it to reptiles? Walk a month in my line of work. I'll tell you right now, there are many people in this country alone completely unfit to keep animals period, whether it be dogs, cats, cockatoos, or snakes or horses, but the laws we have are laughable. Even if there is a violation, most of the time, its a slap on the wrist and the owner is merely instructed to straighten up. And what is welfare exactly? Keeping the animal healthy? And the ability to keep the animal safely confined so it does not escape and injure itself or anything else? [shrugs]

For example [I may have already cited this in thread - forgive me if I have, its been going on for so long, I can't remember! :D], in Alabama, it is permissible by state law to chain up your dog in your yard as long as the chain is 10 ft long, there is a shelter (no real definition listed), and fresh water & food is given. Could be a plastic doghouse with no floor, and its over 100'F outside, and its within the law.
---
So back to the initial question: in terms of the average person being able to provide any given animal what it needs to not only stay alive, but thrive...I would definitely say...

Herps I don't think should be kept as pets are:

large monitors (except ackies perhaps)
crocodilians
large iguana species (green, rock, rhinos, etc)


I almost said large tortoises, like sulcatas, but despite their size, they are hardy, their mortality rate in captivity is significantly less than iguanas (even as babies), and contrary to what some sites & groups claim, it is not hard to rehome large adults. Yes, it can be hard to securely confine a large sulcata, but in terms of feeding, and just housing them, they're pretty sturdy (more along the lines of a small pony or goat).

[franks]

So you would ban savanah monitors based on the fact that most people that keep them cannot provide for their welfare? That's a slippery slope. That leads to conversations about the way people house their snakes in plastic shoe boxes. I agree with your sentiments concerning the volume of mistreated animals in this country- but I would hate to see the government start enforcing regulations on citizens regarding their pets and or hobbies.
Also your point seems to be based on the difficulty of getting an animal to "thrive" in captivity which completely misses the point and does not address the core issue that you brought up yourself: people mistreat anamals. If person X is irresponsible and government regulations prevent him from getting- say- a savanah monitor than that monitor is spared from the mistreatment. But person X is going to get a bearded dragon instead and mistreat that animal. Some people take this hobby very seriously, and to others it is just a fad that quickly loses its glamor. That aspect is not changing anytime soon. Government regulations do not differentiate- they are imposed on the responsible in order to curb the irresponsible. That is the point and the nature of them.

[StudentoReptile]

So you would ban savanah monitors based on the fact that most people that keep them cannot provide for their welfare?
That's a slippery slope. That leads to conversations about the way people house their snakes in plastic shoe boxes. I agree with your sentiments concerning the volume of mistreated animals in this country- but I would hate to see the government start enforcing regulations on citizens regarding their pets and or hobbies.
Also your point seems to be based on the difficulty of getting an animal to "thrive" in captivity which completely misses the point and does not address the core issue that you brought up yourself: people mistreat anamals. If person X is irresponsible and government regulations prevent him from getting- say- a savanah monitor than that monitor is spared from the mistreatment. But person X is going to get a bearded dragon instead and mistreat that animal. Some people take this hobby very seriously, and to others it is just a fad that quickly loses its glamor. That aspect is not changing anytime soon. Government regulations do not differentiate- they are imposed on the responsible in order to curb the irresponsible. That is the point and the nature of them.

The OP asked a question and I responded with my opinion. It should be noted that the OP did not mention a ban in their initial query and neither did I.

I do not think an outright ban is the answer, but I'm not sure what is. I know what we have right is not working at all. Its funny you bring up savannah monitors because not only are they the most commonly kept monitor species, but the most misunderstood in terms in husbandry and arguably, more die in the name of the pet trade every than any other monitor species.

So what's the solution to reduce the number of thousands of dead savannah monitors? Education is a very slow & steady game, because there's still oodles of misinformation that people regurgitate and cite and the faction of hobbyists trying to enlighten the masses is still a small minority [right, Wayne? I know you agree!]

We could regulate or reduce the numbers of savs being imported from Africa, which would limit the supply, thus driving up the price of WC savs, making them either more desirable and/or not as available to the average person. Of course, the only way that's gonna happen is A.) convince the countries of origin that savannah monitors are threatened enough to warrant protection, or B.) convince the pet trade in the U.S. there is not enough demand to warrant the import of such high numbers. I doubt either will happen.

The other option is an aforementioned license or permit system that people to actually "qualify" for and get certified to possess certain animals.

Or....an outright ban on the species altogether.

I don't have all the answers....but I tell you what: I get tired of seeing people neglect their pets (any type of pet). I get tired of seeing people trying to rehome sav monitors, iguanas, big snakes, tortoises, etc, all because they lost interest, or the animals are too much to keep or handle, too large, etc., tired of seeing people posting about "oops, Spike or Kaa got out again! Tee hee!" I get tired of see people mishandling herps, and news articles of another python found somewhere in someone's apartment complex (not just in Florida!). Its not just a welfare problem, its a PEOPLE problem, plain and simple.
---
Which leads me to something else...

Franks, you hit on something else, by mentioned in keeping snakes in little plastic boxes. Once again, I'll say this is not just about pythons in Florida, or whether we have rights vs privileges, or a welfare issue on alligators & giant lizards in bathtubs. Its about common stuff, too.

In this hobby, we are at the precipice of which some species (namely ball pythons and corn snakes at the top of the list, & perhaps other colubrids, maybe leopard geckos and bearded dragons down further) are so "popular" and so commonly bred, they are close to the stage as dogs & cats are, when the "by-products" of the genetic mutations are being produced = large quantities of normal phenotype, low-value animals put in the market. Think I'm wrong? How many ball pythons are showing up on Craigslist & similar classifieds venues nowadays? Heck even, low-value morphs like pastels & spiders are hitting CL ads. I know that's not a concrete analysis of the reptile economic, but its a keen observation. I know reptile rescues here locally who cannot GIVE AWAY normal ball python adoptions (snakes that are vet-checked, feeding great & mite-free).

What does that tell you? Normal ball pythons have the market value of a stray dog. Unless you just happen to know someone wants one then and now, & that particular size and gender, or happens to have the space or money to care for one.....its' "nah, I ain't got room for another snake."

[Georgia]

The problem i see with the "permit" system is this...
1. What are the standards to prove one can competently have x reptile?
2. Is there a written test like youd take at the DMV and a test to demonstrate your skills and knowledge? If not then that PERMIT system doesnt mean a damn thing and is pointless other than for collecting money and control.

[Georgia]

as everyone can tell I'm 100 percent against permits.

[franks]

The OP asked a question and I responded with my opinion. It should be noted that the OP did not mention a ban in their initial query and neither did I.

I do not think an outright ban is the answer, but I'm not sure what is. I know what we have right is not working at all. Its funny you bring up savannah monitors because not only are they the most commonly kept monitor species, but the most misunderstood in terms in husbandry and arguably, more die in the name of the pet trade every than any other monitor species.

So what's the solution to reduce the number of thousands of dead savannah monitors? Education is a very slow & steady game, because there's still oodles of misinformation that people regurgitate and cite and the faction of hobbyists trying to enlighten the masses is still a small minority [right, Wayne? I know you agree!]

We could regulate or reduce the numbers of savs being imported from Africa, which would limit the supply, thus driving up the price of WC savs, making them either more desirable and/or not as available to the average person. Of course, the only way that's gonna happen is A.) convince the countries of origin that savannah monitors are threatened enough to warrant protection, or B.) convince the pet trade in the U.S. there is not enough demand to warrant the import of such high numbers. I doubt either will happen.

The other option is an aforementioned license or permit system that people to actually "qualify" for and get certified to possess certain animals.

Or....an outright ban on the species altogether.

I don't have all the answers....but I tell you what: I get tired of seeing people neglect their pets (any type of pet). I get tired of seeing people trying to rehome sav monitors, iguanas, big snakes, tortoises, etc, all because they lost interest, or the animals are too much to keep or handle, too large, etc., tired of seeing people posting about "oops, Spike or Kaa got out again! Tee hee!" I get tired of see people mishandling herps, and news articles of another python found somewhere in someone's apartment complex (not just in Florida!). Its not just a welfare problem, its a PEOPLE problem, plain and simple.
---
Which leads me to something else...

Franks, you hit on something else, by mentioned in keeping snakes in little plastic boxes. Once again, I'll say this is not just about pythons in Florida, or whether we have rights vs privileges, or a welfare issue on alligators & giant lizards in bathtubs. Its about common stuff, too.

In this hobby, we are at the precipice of which some species (namely ball pythons and corn snakes at the top of the list, & perhaps other colubrids, maybe leopard geckos and bearded dragons down further) are so "popular" and so commonly bred, they are close to the stage as dogs & cats are, when the "by-products" of the genetic mutations are being produced = large quantities of normal phenotype, low-value animals put in the market. Think I'm wrong? How many ball pythons are showing up on Craigslist & similar classifieds venues nowadays? Heck even, low-value morphs like pastels & spiders are hitting CL ads. I know that's not a concrete analysis of the reptile economic, but its a keen observation. I know reptile rescues here locally who cannot GIVE AWAY normal ball python adoptions (snakes that are vet-checked, feeding great & mite-free).

What does that tell you? Normal ball pythons have the market value of a stray dog. Unless you just happen to know someone wants one then and now, & that particular size and gender, or happens to have the space or money to care for one.....its' "nah, I ain't got room for another snake."

I do not disagree with what you are saying at all- I just do not like how you are leaning towards involving the government as a solution. The reason I chose Savanah Monitor as an example is because I keep one. I feel perfectly confident expressing my belief that no other reptile is mistreated in that high of a percentage. Aside from the forums, I have never even heard of one being kept correctly. Your Craigslist example is a great one and where I live the ball python issue is much more severe than you gave credit. It's a national issue to some extent. I was talking to a very reputable breeder who was trying to get rid of breeder female pastels for $100 a piece and couldn't move them. He was trying to give them away. In the tri - state area, here, CL is swamped with Mojave and Fire and all that stuff.

It's a tricky issue. When it comes to government regulations there are no perfect answers. Just because so ebony else is mistreating their animals does not mean that my keeping of animals should be imposed upon at all by the government. That is my opinion and I completely understand the other side of it. Where I live people fight dogs. That is horrible, but I do not want regulations imposed on what I do with my dog because of them.

Self regulation is a utopian concept, proved to be flawed to the point of failure, but is still the method I like the best. It starts with the sellers. The people importing monitors and selling them 2 for $20. When I bought my monitor the man selling him to me tried so hard to get me to take 3. Offered me all kinds of deals. Who could possibly care for 3 monitors? Never have I bought an animal where I was asked how I would be keeping it (except for my dog.)

The realistic truth is sad- we cannot do it ourself. The government has been involved and more involvement is in our future. Our only hope is in the popularity of our hobby at this point- which puts us in a bad spot because the more people that get into the hobby the more careless mistakes and mistreated animals. The other day I saw a fashion add on the subway with a young African American man decked out in designer clothes holding a ball python- I thought that was very cool. Sorry student- I think I'm rambling at this point. I'm a brand new father, I haven't slept in two weeks.

[SSSSnakes]

Government bans stop nothing, it just makes for under ground markets. People are going to keep and buy what they want if it is legal or not. They even advertise the sale of illegal snakes on forums and Craigslist.

[Mikoh4792]

Where I live people fight dogs. That is horrible, but I do not want regulations imposed on what I do with my dog because of them.

+1

I wholeheartedly agree

[StudentoReptile]

I do not like govt intrusion anymore than anyone else, but...does anyone have an alternative solution?

[Mikoh4792]

I do not like govt intrusion anymore than anyone else, but...does anyone have an alternative solution?

If we apply the same logic to Frank's point on dogs, what kind of government intrusion do you propose would help the problem?

[SSSSnakes]

Governments intrusion has not solved any problems. People still keep what they want regardless of what the laws say.

[StudentoReptile]

Governments intrusion has not solved any problems. People still keep what they want regardless of what the laws say.

Then more people disobey the laws, then they make more laws then before you know it, there's laws prohibiting everything and everyone is an outlaw.

Sorry, I just don't agree that is an acceptable outcome. I know people that work with the laws and the permit system, while not entirely desirable, works.

The issue is that 99% of the reptile community thinks they are innocent of everything, and they have a right to keep whatever they want, and their mentality is that they WILL keep whatever they want until they get caught, and even then, they'll keep on doing whatever, and it keeps making it look bad for the tiny minority of us who are trying to make a difference. As long as this keeps going on, everything will get worse. Period.

So gentlemen, my herp society and I will work toward the goals we have set before ourselves, and until someone else comes up with a better solution than the above, we will continue to do so, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

[SSSSnakes]

Then more people disobey the laws, then they make more laws then before you know it, there's laws prohibiting everything and everyone is an outlaw.

That's the way it goes and that is the way it will end up, with rebellion. But isn't that the way this country started in the first place.

[IW17]

That's the way it goes and that is the way it will end up, with rebellion. But isn't that the way this country started in the first place.

Amen. People in this country have gotten way to submissive with our govt. A sit back and take it on the chin attitude. And the govt will keep overreaching it's boundaries until we stand up for ourselves and put them back in there place. The purpose of govt is to be the voice of the people, not our appointed nannies. At some point you have to push back, either figuratively, or physically. We need to show this govt the same as we did the last, that we are free men and women willing to fight back against oppression, and take back our freedoms that we are slowly losing day by day.

[Georgia]

The issue is that 99% of the reptile community thinks they are innocent of everything, and they have a right to keep whatever they want, and their mentality is that they WILL keep whatever they want until they get caught, and even then, they'll keep on doing whatever, and it keeps making it look bad for the tiny minority of us who are trying to make a difference. As long as this keeps going on, everything will get worse. Period.

So you are saying that 99% of the reptile community is the problem? Thats total nonsense. I think you got that backwards.

[StudentoReptile]

So you are saying that 99% of the reptile community is the problem? Thats total nonsense. I think you got that backwards.

You're entitled to your opinion and I am to mine.

If you have ever sold, bought or traded a reptile, you are part of the merry-go-round, and thus, part of this whole mess. If you continue to look in the mirror, and as long you think "Oh I didn't do anything wrong ; It's all the _____ that are wrong, not me ; I told them how big it gets, and it's going to need ___ before they bought it ; well, I live in America, and I have a right to make a living and make money as long as I care for my animals, etc, etc..".....yeah, you're part of the problem.

...and tell me that is not how 99% of herpers think.

BTW, this is coming from someone who has done these things and finally looked in the mirror and realized the truth, and decided to get off the merry-go-round.

[Mikoh4792]

StudentoReptile would you say buying a reptile as a pet is inherently a part of the problem as well?

[franks]

StudentoReptile would you say buying a reptile as a pet is inherently a part of the problem as well?

Yes he would: his opening line was "if you have ever sold, BOUGHT, or traded a reptile.

[franks]

So... Basically you took the question "what herps should not be kept as pets?" -and through a series of short essays on this post came to the conclusion that none of them should be? They shouldn't be "bought, sold, or traded" at all. So if it were up to you, none of us would have reptiles of aby kind?

[FWK]

So... Basically you took the question "what herps should not be kept as pets?" -and through a series of short essays on this post came to the conclusion that none of them should be? They shouldn't be "bought, sold, or traded" at all. So if it were up to you, none of us would have reptiles of aby kind?

Hes been saying so all along, that's why I quit arguing with him about it. Read between the lines. He says hes been an animal control officer for a long time. He has seen to much of the bad side of the pet industry, he is jaded on the whole thing. I used to see this sort of thing all the time working with retired cops. We called it post traumatic stress disorder. I even called him a troll and he just tipped his cap with a smug smile and said why yes I am. Just ignore him lol.

[StudentoReptile]

So... Basically you took the question "what herps should not be kept as pets?" -and through a series of short essays on this post came to the conclusion that none of them should be? They shouldn't be "bought, sold, or traded" at all. So if it were up to you, none of us would have reptiles of aby kind?

Um...no, no, and no.

No, I never said no herps should be kept as pets. I never said none of them should be bought, sold, or traded. And I never said if it were up to me, nobody else would have reptiles of any kind. That would be hypocritical and selfish of me.

Those are assumptions on your part.
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I have merely stated my opinions that the issues & problems we are experiencing (legislature, irresponsible keepers, etc) are caused by the herp hobby & industry as a whole, and as a whole, everyone is part of that hobby, and everyone is part of that merry-go-round, including myself. I'm not saying that everyone stops keeping pets right now. All I have been saying is that the way we have been doing things thus far is not working, because these problems are still existing and getting worse.

Is regulation the answer? Maybe & maybe not. But we're not doing it by ourselves very well. Just saying.

Is revolution the answer? Maybe....but I'm telling you the game has changed just a tad in the past few centuries.

But whatever...you guys are the breeders, so you know better and more than me. I only see the bad and the worse, so I apparently I could not possibly offer any fresh perspective to this matter.

[Mikoh4792]

deleted. Invalid argument

[franks]

Hey, please don't get defensive SOR. It's hard for me to believe that you really think that and that is why I asked you to clarify. If you go back and re - read the post I commented on, you will see that the questions I drew are pretty valid based on the words that you wrote. Your perspective (given your occupation) is a very unique one on this forum, and although it's clear that it heavily influences your thoughts about this (as it should) it is valuable to this conversation.
There is no right answer tho this problem. I stated this before. My analogy compared this issue to keeping dogs.
In a scenario where there is not a right answer I do not feel the responsible should be punished for the irresponsible. That is the only place where you and I seem to disagree.

[StudentoReptile]

It is a big issue with a long history. When I say everyone is part of problem (mind you, I do not mean that everyone has an EQUAL part of the problem), I mean that the industry is driven by greed. Its a tough pill to swallow, but people need to take it and accept it.

You ever acquired an animal and taken it upon yourself to care for that animal, provide for its needs until it dies of natural causes? Did you follow through on your word? Or did you eventually sell off that animal for money or trade it for something else you wanted better?

If your answer is the latter, then you put your own desires above the animals welfare = greed. And we all have done it; we've done it at shows, online, at gas stations, flea markets, etc.

Big snakes, big lizards, big turtles & tortoises...ever gotten rid of one because it got too large for you? Did you sell it? Well, sure maybe the person who got knew what they were doing, and maybe they didn't. But deep down, if you were honest with yourself, did you make the decision based on "I need money more than I need this animal." Mind you, I'm not asking you to respond to these questions on this thread, but just to look back think about those things.

[Now I'm not talking about rehoming an animal because you had to move or you literally got over your head and were financially unable to care for it, and gave it to a better home; that is different. Those cases are exceptions to the rule.]

And we've been doing this for decades...all of us.

Believe me, I'm in it, too. I keep stuff for various reasons: I got a ball python because he was my very first snake back in 1991 and even though he's cranky, and I don't care much for BPs now, I ain't getting rid of him. I have a anery cornsnake that was a rescue & pretty mellow that I keep primarily for my kids. I have tortoises that were rescues, and I keep mainly as pets for me and the kids. I have a water snake I have for educational purposes. That doesn't count all the stuff I have had over the yrs I have acquired and gotten rid of. A lot of stuff I wish I kept, and a lot of stuff I never should have gotten in the first place.

And there's a lot of stuff I still want, too! I want a Boelen's python. I want an Argentine tegu. I want Solomon prehensile-tailed skinks. I want to keep hots.

There's a reason I bring that up. My state is pretty lazy when it comes to reptile laws. Their mentality is: toss it on non-game listing (which requires little due process) and if it goes extinct, that's just nature's way. They also do not take much account for the pet trade. So if they feel it is justified, they may throw non-native species of any kind on the prohibited list. The only way to keep it is a permission letter from DCNR. But it is easier for them to say no to everyone because it is less work for them.

SOOOOO....what am I to do? Just sit around and whine every time they prohibit something else in my state? They already threw speckled kingsnakes on the nongame list, one of the most common and easiest to keep snakes in our state, and one of my favorite species. I can be an outlaw and just keep them anyway, but I can tell you what, fellas; animal control officers don't make enough dough to pay off tickets for keeping illegal wildlife if I get caught! :O_o: Just sayin! Maybe that works for some of you, but I got a wife and 2 kids. I can't afford to risk fines just to keep "whatever I want because I'm gonna stick it to the man."

...Or I can work toward change, toward a hobby in the future where my children can still keep a cornsnake in Alabama, and I can still get a Boelen's python or a Solomon Islands skink.

But I'm not a person who prefers stagnation or deterioration.
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I know this thread has taken some odd turns, but I feel it, for the most part has stayed somewhat true to the general topic. The OP asked what herps should be kept as pets, and people responded. Whether is it a matter of welfare or a matter of rights/privileges (irresponsible keepers, which arguably could go back to welfare), it is still an opinion of each poster of why they feel which species (if any) should not be kept. I posted which species, and explained why.

I know I've been accused of "dominating" the discussion (not sure how, it is a public forum, and anyone can chime and post as much as they want as long it is accordance to the rules)...but anywho, if anyone is interested in chatting the subject matter further with me, feel free to send me a PM, email, I'll be more than happy to oblige. I kinda feel like a broken record at this point though.