Trouble with a very brazen snake.

[CosmicOwl]

Not too long ago, I posted a thread asking for a bit of advice on what do with my juvenile bloodred corn snake. The advice was helpful, but the situation itself seems to be getting worse. Honestly, I expect a snake to be shy, if not defensive. To me, that's a pretty easy behavior to work around. However, I have the complete opposite with this girl. It's not just a matter of her biting anything that comes in the environment... She's extremely energetic and manages to find her way to the top of the tub before I can even undo the latches. This worries me. If I get bit, it won't hurt me much, but I'm afraid that in her attempts to get food she will manage to make it out of the tub and escape before I can catch her. Being that she isn't even a year old, she could easily slip out of my hands and then who knows what happens.

There may be no solution for the time being, but I'm asking you guys for a bit of help. How can I discourage her from always from coming to the top of the tub? Should I remove the climbing furniture? Or should I utilize another safety precaution in case she makes it out of the tub?

[jpsteele80]

Not sure if I saw the other post but can I ask what your feeding her, maybe you could post a pic of her and the size of prey your feeding her, just taking a guess but it sounds as if she may still be hungry, like I said this is just a guess from the info you posted above.

[sharthun]

Not sure if I saw the other post but can I ask what your feeding her, maybe you could post a pic of her and the size of prey your feeding her, just taking a guess but it sounds as if she may still be hungry, like I said this is just a guess from the info you posted above.

I agree, could just be a matter of feeding larger meals.

[CosmicOwl]

I've thought about the food, but she's being fed pretty well. I'm giving her a medium-large fuzzy every 4-5 days. My grey rat is larger and eats the same prey on the same schedule and doesn't behave similarly.

[sharthun]

I've thought about the food, but she's being fed pretty well. I'm giving her a medium-large fuzzy every 4-5 days. My grey rat is larger and eats the same prey on the same schedule and doesn't behave similarly.

How large is she? Have any pics?

[jpsteele80]

Doesn't mean she still isn't hungry, every snake is different, is there a noticeable bulge in the midsection after she is finished?

[CosmicOwl]

The only pictures I have are from shortly after I first got her. When I feed her again, I will try to get some. I don't weigh my snakes, because it seems like added stress, but she's about 20-22 inches long and maybe 1/2" thick. I'm feeding her prey items that are thicker around that she is and they do leave a lump. Maybe I'm wrong about the food, but I already bumped her up to more frequent feedings since the last thread and her temperament has only become more excitable. I can definitely try feeding her even more often, but then I worry about overfeeding. How do you tell if the snake is eating out of a legitimate need for more food or instinct?

Maybe these concerns seem silly, but I'm always a bit hesitant to change things with my snakes.

[jpsteele80]

It's better to give bigger meals than to feed smaller meals more often, give that digestive track some time to rest a little, that might be a reason she is so food aggressive is because you feed her then maybe give her 2 days to digest a little, maybe handle her a little on the 3rd day and on the fourth day she's getting food again. If she is a half inch round I would think she should be able to handle an adult mouse

[CosmicOwl]

It's better to give bigger meals than to feed smaller meals more often, give that digestive track some time to rest a little, that might be a reason she is so food aggressive is because you feed her then maybe give her 2 days to digest a little, maybe handle her a little on the 3rd day and on the fourth day she's getting food again. If she is a half inch round I would think she should be able to handle an adult mouse


No offense JP, but I've seen both opinions. Some people feel that snakes should be fed smaller meals more often, while others feel they should be fed larger meals less often. I've been feeding smaller meals more often because I have been reading several people stating that this method has allowed them to keep snakes in good health for 20 years or more. I want to keep my snakes healthy for as long as possible.

I suppose I could move up to something like hoppers, but I don't see her being able to eat an adult mouse. At least not any adult mouse I've come across. However, I think I will try giving her larger meals less often to see if it has any effect on her behavior.

[EL Ziggy]

I've thought about the food, but she's being fed pretty well. I'm giving her a medium-large fuzzy every 4-5 days. My grey rat is larger and eats the same prey on the same schedule and doesn't behave similarly.

I vary my colubrids feeding schedule and meal size. The intervals are longer after big meals (7-10 days) and shorter after smaller meals (5-7 days). Both my kings are yearlings and my bull is about 8 months old. They're a little larger than your corn and they all eat (2) medium-large mice or rat fuzzys/pups per feeding. If you're comfortable with your prey size and feeding schedule you could try giving her 2 prey items per feeding and see if that helps.

[IW17]

It's better to give bigger meals than to feed smaller meals more often, give that digestive track some time to rest a little, that might be a reason she is so food aggressive is because you feed her then maybe give her 2 days to digest a little, maybe handle her a little on the 3rd day and on the fourth day she's getting food again. If she is a half inch round I would think she should be able to handle an adult mouse

Gotta disagree. Smaller meals more often are the way to go more often than not. Just because snakes can handle large meals and go long periods without food doesn'tmean tthat's the healthiest option. I feed young colubrids biweekly, and the Prey is generally not too much larger than its midsection. Once they peak and stop noticeably growing I'll drop down to one meal every 7-10 days, usually 7. If one snake is always in hunt mode anytime I come in contact I'll bump up the feeding schedule to accommodate, but keep and eye on its weight to ensure its not getting obese.

[Jim Smith]

I'm not sure the question that CosmicOwl asked actually has anything to do with prey size or the feeding response. I have one young Honduran Milk Snake that is still housed in a tub while I await his permanent cage to be delivered. He constantly crawls to the top of a tub and lays along the ridge by the handle on the tub. I think he does this because he feels hidden and more secure and I believe he's looking for a way to escape. I have the same problem with them when I open the tub. He's as quick as a cat and I have to be VERY careful that he doesn't get away from me when I open the tub. This problem will go away when I get him in his permanent cage. For Cosmic Owl, I think the problem will go away either when he changes the cage to a front opening cage or his snake grows too large to hide up near the top. Just my 2 cents worth.

[mclund]

I'm not sure the question that CosmicOwl asked actually has anything to do with prey size or the feeding response. I have one young Honduran Milk Snake that is still housed in a tub while I await his permanent cage to be delivered. He constantly crawls to the top of a tub and lays along the ridge by the handle on the tub. I think he does this because he feels hidden and more secure and I believe he's looking for a way to escape. I have the same problem with them when I open the tub. He's as quick as a cat and I have to be VERY careful that he doesn't get away from me when I open the tub. This problem will go away when I get him in his permanent cage. For Cosmic Owl, I think the problem will go away either when he changes the cage to a front opening cage or his snake grows too large to hide up near the top. Just my 2 cents worth.

Jim pretty much hit the nail on the head. What you expect the snake to act like really doesn't matter. It's not up to you. it's just the snakes temperament. I also doubt it's food related. A larger meal will usually subdue the animal for a few days, but only to digest. I agree with most everyone else that larger prey items are not the best choice, but at that size 1 adult mouse weekly will produce a small lump and be gone in a day if your temps are correct. Do you have a hide box in the tub and does the snake ever use it? I use small tubs temporarily house animals when cage cleaning and in an empty tub, 90% of the time the snake will crawl up under the lip of the lid. Try to offer some other choices in the tub for hiding. A couple sheets of craft paper or newsprint rumpled into a makeshift hide works very well and can be changed easily when soiled. Even when I offer what I think is the best choice for a hide, I often find animals hid under the paper. Not sure why, but getting the animal down off the top of the tub will make it easier to deal with him when opening it. Be confident in your ability to deal with a ill tempered animal and don't avoid handling it..it will come around.

Matt

[sharthun]

Good point!


I'm not sure the question that CosmicOwl asked actually has anything to do with prey size or the feeding response. I have one young Honduran Milk Snake that is still housed in a tub while I await his permanent cage to be delivered. He constantly crawls to the top of a tub and lays along the ridge by the handle on the tub. I think he does this because he feels hidden and more secure and I believe he's looking for a way to escape. I have the same problem with them when I open the tub. He's as quick as a cat and I have to be VERY careful that he doesn't get away from me when I open the tub. This problem will go away when I get him in his permanent cage. For Cosmic Owl, I think the problem will go away either when he changes the cage to a front opening cage or his snake grows too large to hide up near the top. Just my 2 cents worth.

[CosmicOwl]

I'm not trying to confuse anybody here, but the snake isn't hanging on the inside of the lid. First of all, that's physically impossible with the type of tub I have. What's going on is that she will be hiding, and by the time I've undone all of the latches on the tub, she will be perched at the top of the tub waiting to strike/possibly escape. My worry is that she will managed to surge out of the tub and either get hurt, or manage to somehow escape before I can recover her. If she was larger, I wouldn't be worried, because even an adult corn snake is too big to escape your grasp. A 9 month of corn snake is just too small and wriggly to be 100% sure you can grab/keep in your hands.

As for feeding, I just don't see how an adult mouse would be possible for her to consume. I feed adult mice to my adult corn snake and they still produce a lump in his body. Maybe if you consider a large hopper to be an "adult mouse", but even that would be a good size meal for her.

[EL Ziggy]

Owl- It sounds like she's just a bit skittish which means you'll have to be extra careful when opening her tub :). My bull snake will sometimes stretch for the top of her enclosure as well, especially if she's hungry. When she's full she's naturally less active. I definitely wouldn't want her to hit the floor and get hurt or lost either so I pay close attention to where she's at when I open her tank and steer her back inside with my hand if necessary. Do you handle her often? Two of my snakes were very skittish for the first couple of months after I got them. They've calmed down quite a bit since then. Best wishes with your corn.

[mclund]

I'm not trying to confuse anybody here, but the snake isn't hanging on the inside of the lid. First of all, that's physically impossible with the type of tub I have. What's going on is that she will be hiding, and by the time I've undone all of the latches on the tub, she will be perched at the top of the tub waiting to strike/possibly escape. My worry is that she will managed to surge out of the tub and either get hurt, or manage to somehow escape before I can recover her. If she was larger, I wouldn't be worried, because even an adult corn snake is too big to escape your grasp. A 9 month of corn snake is just too small and wriggly to be 100% sure you can grab/keep in your hands.

As for feeding, I just don't see how an adult mouse would be possible for her to consume. I feed adult mice to my adult corn snake and they still produce a lump in his body. Maybe if you consider a large hopper to be an "adult mouse", but even that would be a good size meal for her.

Cosmic Owl,
Forget the food...It's not the issue here. Please don't take this the wrong way, but truthfully the problem is you. I bred corn snakes for 7 years. I have dealt with every size and temperament you can think of. If I could put my eyes on it, I could handle it. From 8 inches to 5 feet. They are resilient, you will not hurt it...it will not hurt you. At this point I am not sure which one is more stressed...but I think its you. Open the tub and pick up the animal. Do it on the floor or inside a larger tub if that makes you more comfortable. You may think I am being a little harsh, but you are making this a bigger deal than you need to. I want to hear how you did with it.

[CosmicOwl]

Cosmic Owl,
Forget the food...It's not the issue here. Please don't take this the wrong way, but truthfully the problem is you. I bred corn snakes for 7 years. I have dealt with every size and temperament you can think of. If I could put my eyes on it, I could handle it. From 8 inches to 5 feet. They are resilient, you will not hurt it...it will not hurt you. At this point I am not sure which one is more stressed...but I think its you. Open the tub and pick up the animal. Do it on the floor or inside a larger tub if that makes you more comfortable. You may think I am being a little harsh, but you are making this a bigger deal than you need to. I want to hear how you did with it.


I'm not trying to discredit your experience, but I think you're reading the situation wrong. I CAN handle her. I've had her for months and her temperament outside of the cage is pretty mellow. I may not be explaining the situation properly, but here is the issue I'm running into:

I don't know whether it's a feeding response or something else, but by the time I undo the latches, she is already at the lid waiting. My fear(and I don't really have trouble admitting this) is that she will escape the tub in the brief moment that I am removing the lid, and I won't be able to grab her quickly enough. I've already had a couple close calls where she has managed to get out and I have been able to grab just enough of her to get her back in the tub.

Unfortunately, I don't have a room in my house that is air tight. But her quarantine is up and I'm going to put her in a smaller room which she couldn't go missing in. I appreciate the opinions, but I know I'm nervous. However, I was hoping to find out if anybody had a solution for training her to stay away from the lid. If there is no solution to that, I guess I will have to deal with it.

[mclund]

I'm not trying to discredit your experience, but I think you're reading the situation wrong. I CAN handle her. I've had her for months and her temperament outside of the cage is pretty mellow. I may not be explaining the situation properly, but here is the issue I'm running into:

I don't know whether it's a feeding response or something else, but by the time I undo the latches, she is already at the lid waiting. My fear(and I don't really have trouble admitting this) is that she will escape the tub in the brief moment that I am removing the lid, and I won't be able to grab her quickly enough. I've already had a couple close calls where she has managed to get out and I have been able to grab just enough of her to get her back in the tub.

Unfortunately, I don't have a room in my house that is air tight. But her quarantine is up and I'm going to put her in a smaller room which she couldn't go missing in. I appreciate the opinions, but I know I'm nervous. However, I was hoping to find out if anybody had a solution for training her to stay away from the lid. If there is no solution to that, I guess I will have to deal with it.

I don't think I am...by your own admission. I am not trying to berate you. Your issue is confidence with a snake that acts differently than the others in your collection. Snakes are not very intelligent...most of it is instinct. If they let you handle them..it is really just tolerance. We as humans mistake this for feelings. They don't love or care...there needs are primal, food and temperature, but the level of tolerance can vary. That is what you are dealing with and you are letting it get the best of you. I do not believe you can "train" a snake. They may be subject to repetitive actions, but instinct will take over most of the time. Stick a rodent in a snakes face...it is going to eat it.

[smigon]

Have you considered the possibility that she might be trying to find a place to lay eggs? Both of my unbred girls laid slugs in the last two weeks, I didn't even consider that they would even be trying, my older girl was so nasty for the last two months and when I did decide to put a lay box in her viv she immediately went in, didn't come out for two days, and when she did she crawled out and died.

I opened the lay box and there were 12 tiny slugs the size of marbles, and she was so emaciated that she just couldn't take it.

Try putting a lay box in her viv and see what happens.

[Pirarucu]

I honestly don't think I read it that way mclund. What I am reading is he has a snake with a strong feeding response which tends to come flying out of the cage so fast that it could be hard to grab it in time to stop it from escaping. It's not a confidence issue, it's a fast, bold snake. I've dealt with the same thing, and sometimes it is genuinely difficult to stop an animal from darting out of its cage when you open it. He is asking for some way to slow the snake down so he has more time to react.
Unfortunately there really isn't much you can do. It's likely that as she grows, she will slow down a little bit and become more calm at feeding time.

[Mikoh4792]

I honestly don't think I read it that way mclund. What I am reading is he has a snake with a strong feeding response which tends to come flying out of the cage so fast that it could be hard to grab it in time to stop it from escaping. It's not a confidence issue, it's a fast, bold snake. I've dealt with the same thing, and sometimes it is genuinely difficult to stop an animal from darting out of its cage when you open it. He is asking for some way to slow the snake down so he has more time to react.
Unfortunately there really isn't much you can do. It's likely that as she grows, she will slow down a little bit and become more calm at feeding time.

+1

Owl maybe you should move him into an enclosure with front sliding doors. Much easier to deal with fast snakes that way.

[formica]

Use a bigger/deeper tub, so that she cannot get out, unless you take her out :)

possibly a sliding door enclosure, but make sure to block up the gap between the glass doors if its more than a few mm

[CosmicOwl]

I honestly don't think I read it that way mclund. What I am reading is he has a snake with a strong feeding response which tends to come flying out of the cage so fast that it could be hard to grab it in time to stop it from escaping. It's not a confidence issue, it's a fast, bold snake. I've dealt with the same thing, and sometimes it is genuinely difficult to stop an animal from darting out of its cage when you open it. He is asking for some way to slow the snake down so he has more time to react.
Unfortunately there really isn't much you can do. It's likely that as she grows, she will slow down a little bit and become more calm at feeding time.

Pirarucu, you're spot on. I made this post in the hope that with so many experienced people, they're might be a tip I didn't know. Unfortunately, it seems like there simply isn't one.

Mclund is right, in the sense that she is different than by other snakes; I wouldn't be here is she wasn't. My other snakes are very placid and make no attempts to leave their enclosures. When I'm working on my adult corn's enclosure, he will usually come out and watch me and wait for me squirt him with a little water. I can't do something like that with my bloodred.

For now, I'll be moving her into the other room, after I've made sure there aren't any possible escape routes. Then I'll take it from there. I'll consider a bigger/deeper tub too.

[CosmicOwl]

I thought I'd give you guys a little update as I think I'm getting the problem under control. I moved my blood red, Lucinda, into the room with my other snakes, which seemed to settle her down a bit. In addition to that, I've been placing her tub inside of a tall cardboard box whenever I have to open it. It may seem a little unnecessary, but I feel a lot more comfortable knowing the chances of an escape are minimized. Hopefully, she settles down more with time and handling.

[EL Ziggy]

Glad to hear you're making progress Owl.

[sharthun]

Glad to hear you're making progress Owl.

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!

[Roman]

Just another thought about your problem…

One of the issues I have with keeping snakes in tubs (or aquariums for that matter) is that you access the tub from above. This is exactly the direction where most predators like birds of prey are coming from, so a lot of snakes get nervous if something comes from that direction. Most snakes calm down after some time and might even get used to it, but maybe your snake thinks the best defense is an aggressive offence, a hit and run tactic.

So I would agree with Mikoh4792, get a front opening cage. Most nervous snakes calm down if you enter their cage from the same level as they are. Your snake can evade you and can move to / stay at the opposite side of the cage while you do your maintenance, but can not escape outside the cage because the door at this side is closed. This might solve your problem.

Roman