Ackie sex determination?

[RyanReptile]

So I have heard that there is a theory that suggests that hatchlings that are housed together will decide their own gender for the betterment of the group. For instants if three hatchlings are housed together, two will be female and one will become a male, if you buy two one will be male and the other female. Is there any truth behind this theory?

[smy_749]

No truth behind it. Sex is determined before they hatch in varanids. The theory was debunked after this was discovered.

[jpsteele80]

Yeah that would be nice if it were true

[Gatorhunter1231]

If ackies would change sex then I would not have held back 12 ackies in hopes of getting pairs

[murrindindi]

Wasn`t it Frank Retes who first put this silly idea forward?

[Alisa-D]

Sort of off topic but has any research been done to see if other monitors are parthenogenic(sp) like the komodo dragons.. If you had a large group of females would they produce fertile eggs without a male present

[murrindindi]

Sort of off topic but has any research been done to see if other monitors are parthenogenic(sp) like the komodo dragons.. If you had a large group of females would they produce fertile eggs without a male present

Hi, so far V. komodoensis, V. panoptes and V. ornatus have been found to be parthenogenetic, it is reasonable to assume other species are, too.
I don`t quite understand what you`re saying about having a large group of females?

[smy_749]

Wasn`t it Frank Retes who first put this silly idea forward?

yes I believe so.

[wareagleA5]

Wasn`t it Frank Retes who first put this silly idea forward?
It wouldn't seem so silly when you consider what was known at the time, and raising a trio together still seems to be the best way to get a ratio of males and females and animals that tolerate each other.

Interestingly enough the last time I talked to Frank Retes was 6-7 years ago and I was asking him for his opinion on getting monitor DNA tested and linking up with a company that does DNA testing of birds to determine their sex. It was something new at the time and I thought it would be a great resource for our hobby as it has been for the avian hobby. I didn't know anything about DNA at the time and Frank explained why it wouldn't happen any time soon. Back then it was up to $300.00 to get a test, it's now less than $20.00, and you can do it without a vet.

Lastly Frank's idea wasn't so silly or far fetched considering the many ways of sexual determination in the animal kingdom, and I can't believe I'm defending him considering the way he's talked to me lol, but he was right right about some things and may still be right on other things as well. You can see the date this was published, we're getting closer.
PLOS ONE: Highly Differentiated ZW Sex Microchromosomes in the Australian Varanus Species Evolved through Rapid Amplification of Repetitive Sequences (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0095226#pone-0095226-g006)

[smy_749]

All science comes from 'silly' ideas when you think about it. I just think its a silly idea because I don't like mr. retes very much for the way he talks down to just about everyone and he is extremely rude. But yea, only silly when its proven wrong :P

[RyanReptile]

No truth behind it. Sex is determined before they hatch in varanids. The theory was debunked after this was discovered.

Alright thanks, I thought it seemed a little far fetched, but I've heard about it on multiple occasions so I thought it was worth asking. I've read about fish changing sexes but never in reptiles.

[jpsteele80]

All science comes from 'silly' ideas when you think about it. I just think its a silly idea because I don't like mr. retes very much for the way he talks down to just about everyone and he is extremely rude. But yea, only silly when its proven wrong :P

Yeah your not joking, when I was on the kingsnake varanid forums he was an a$$ to people just for seeking advice, it was like if you didn't know as much as he did you were not worth his time.

[Gatorhunter1231]

There are lizards and amphibians know to change sex but monitors are not one of them. There are a few varanerds that having researching it. I have raised all male groups. Luckily I had a few extra females from other groups.

V. Salvator is also known to be parthenogenesis. Someone had pics on Facebook.

[poison123]

There are lizards and amphibians know to change sex

There is? Mind sharing the species that are able to do this?

[Pirarucu]

Sort of off topic but has any research been done to see if other monitors are parthenogenic(sp) like the komodo dragons.. If you had a large group of females would they produce fertile eggs without a male presentAs said, several species are known to be parthenogenic and it is likely that others are as well. But why would one want to have a large group of females to produce eggs? Given the infrequency of parthenogenic reproduction and the low numbers of viable eggs actually produced, you would produce a lot more babies with just one or two male-female pairs.

[wareagleA5]

All science comes from 'silly' ideas when you think about it. I just think its a silly idea because I don't like mr. retes very much for the way he talks down to just about everyone and he is extremely rude. But yea, only silly when its proven wrong :P
Exactly why I haven't talked to him since then lol, thankfully there are other places to talk and learn without all the riddles.

[Alisa-D]

Hi, so far V. komodoensis, V. panoptes and V. ornatus have been found to be parthenogenetic, it is reasonable to assume other species are, too.
I don`t quite understand what you`re saying about having a large group of females?

As said, several species are known to be parthenogenic and it is likely that others are as well. But why would one want to have a large group of females to produce eggs? Given the infrequency of parthenogenic reproduction and the low numbers of viable eggs actually produced, you would produce a lot more babies with just one or two male-female pairs.

Thanks for answering.

I ment more in the wild than in captivity, if for some reason there was no males in an area but didn't word it very well:laugh:

[smy_749]

Thanks for answering.

I ment more in the wild than in captivity, if for some reason there was no males in an area but didn't word it very well:laugh:



This would never be the case, its probably statistically impossible for that to happen.

[Gatorhunter1231]

Not monitors but an all female lizard species that reproduces without males. Pretty cool.
I could have sworn they used to think that they changed sex at will but appears that more research has been done and that females just act like males for better fertility rates. Might be a different whiptail that changes sex. Cool none the less.

The All-Female Species Of Lizard - KnowledgeNuts (http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/01/10/the-all-female-species-of-lizard/)
Teiidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiptail_lizard)

[wareagleA5]

Have any of you tried transillumination?

[Gatorhunter1231]

There was a big thing on transillumination a while back on varanus.nl but I believe it was inconclusive (for babies).

[Pirarucu]

This would never be the case, its probably statistically impossible for that to happen.Not necessarily, when you consider that varanids island-hopped their way throughout Southeast Asia. If a monitor was one of the first few to arrive, parthenogenesis would be a very valuable tool. Although not monitors, Mourning Geckos have this technique mastered...

[smy_749]

Not necessarily, when you consider that varanids island-hopped their way throughout Southeast Asia. If a monitor was one of the first few to arrive, parthenogenesis would be a very valuable tool. Although not monitors, Mourning Geckos have this technique mastered...

Good point, I was thinking of aussie species though, not many chances to island hop haha.

Maybe thats why komodos and salvators developed that skill?

[murrindindi]

Good point, I was thinking of aussie species though, not many chances to island hop haha.

Maybe thats why komodos and salvators developed that skill?

Hi, V. komodoensis is originally an Aussie species.

[smy_749]

Hi, V. komodoensis is originally an Aussie species.

Are the aussie speciments the ones that show parthenogensis? Ofcourse I don't know if the theory is viable anyways as panoptes have also been observed doing this and they do not island hop as far as I know?

[murrindindi]

Are the aussie speciments the ones that show parthenogensis? Ofcourse I don't know if the theory is viable anyways as panoptes have also been observed doing this and they do not island hop as far as I know?

I`m not sure which animals you mean when you ask if the Aussie specimens are parthenogenetic (other than Panoptes)?
We have no idea how common it is in the wild, perhaps fairly regular in a number of species (and also throughout the world), and it doesn`t necessarily need to be simply for the purpose of island hopping.