Species progression?

[Dude123]

Hey everyone.

Long time lurker here, lots of good information to be found! I've never posted but a few of the posts from the last few days have made me curious about something.

Often when talking about wanting to keep species that require very specific care instructions, posters are told to work their way up to that species. While these threads usually have a recommendation for that individual I have never seen a kind of commonly agreed on progression list for heading in certain directions. Obviously this isn't something that would be for everyone, and there are obviously multiple species that can fit.

For example, people are often told that Corn Snakes are a fantastic first snake to get into the hobby, but what if your goal was to get into giant snakes like Retics? How would you recommend to progress from Corn ----> Retic? I'm the most familiar with snakes so I could see fitting a Ball and Boa somewhere in between to gain experience with bigger snakes.

What about going towards keeping the various tree boas? or Hots, though they require a different sort of preparation and a mentor. Or lizard species. If I wanted to own an Iguana or large Monitor what experience should I have before acquiring one?

I guess the short version is that it might be nice for people new to the hobby to have a rough guide to glance at that would place common species, both for snakes and lizards, in a kind of progression order, especially with how common some species like Boas and some giants are and how much experience a keeper should really have before acquiring one.

What does everyone else think? Would something like this be worthwhile or even possible?

[Kera]

I think if you know your "goal" snake, say a BCC red tail, start out small like corns/milks/etc. Then get into smaller boas and get used to them, then just start looking more into bigger localities, and progress your way up. Try to get snakes with the "same" attitude and care ("same" meaning all snakes are different, but generally speaking) and work your way up and just get experienced and comfortable with smaller snakes and get used to the care.
You move up when you KNOW you're ready, money, experience and space wise. :) I hoped this helped.

This isn't to say many people don't jump right in. My first snake was an adult IJ carpet python, she was 7' and puppy dog tame, and I still haven't owned a colubrid of any sort. (Though I plan to..I guess I'm working my way down :P )

And welcome. :D

[jpsteele80]

That's a very good question, maybe a bunch of people here should get together and come up with a list that most everyone could agree on and make a post of it for general reference?

[Starbuck]

i think it depends a lot on the individual keeper. I would not recommend a youth (under 25) to jump right into anything extreme because they may not have a stable enough situation to truly provide for that animal (i.e. giants or hots in an apartment building, when they may be going to university, or moving to different states, etc). However, an older individual who has done lots of research and is willing to take advice, and has good physical resources (mentors, vets, finances, space, etc) i might be fine in recommending they start with what they want (i.e. a larger boa or baby retic, Hots still require years of mentorship in my opinion).

I think if you know what you want, plan appropriately with your acquisitions. If someone wants to keep retics, they might be wasting time and space with a corn or king snake, they might be better off with a ball python or bcc/bci. Carpets are becoming very popular snakes for knowledgable beginners/novice keepers. The bottom line is to not be impulsive. I was guilty of this, and now have several corns that were 'accidental' acquisitions, and while I'm not trying to rehome them, they are taking up space in my collection when i would rather have another carpet or two.

As far as temperament, I know a keeper who keeps several really feisty bamboo rat snakes and coachwhips to keep her on her toes for working with hots in the field (for her research). I think there is a really good article (the abcs of hot keeping?) about how to get into keeping hots. The bottom line is treating the animal with respect, and dont get complacent or disillusioned about their capabilities (whether it be giants or hots).

[Derek Roddy]

Great question.

Keeping a corn can't "prepare" you for keeping a Boa, Keeping a Boa will not "prepare" you for keeping a BlackHead and keeping a BLackHead will not "prepare" you for keeping a Tiger snake.

The best way for anybody interested in learning about snakes (overall...no matter what the species) is not owning a snake at all.

Observation and basic understanding of a reptiles basic needs is all you need to successfully "house" any snake....big or small.
Observe them in their natural habitat, study their basic biology and work and listen to others who have experience working with said animals.

I think bad decisions are what actually cause issues with keeping various types of snakes.

If you have room for a retic and you understand the basic needs and requirements for keeping such an animal...you should have no issue.
Making a bad decision to keep a 16 foot animal in an apartment....is the actual problem. Not having the snake.

And making those decisions have nothing to do with species but, knowledge of yourself and, what you know you're capable of.

That is sometimes harder to understand than the animal.

D

[Dude123]

That's a very good question, maybe a bunch of people here should get together and come up with a list that most everyone could agree on and make a post of it for general reference?

This is kind of what I was thinking of, or maybe a some sort of list along the lines of, if you like these species you may also like... though it may be too difficult to compose something like this.

[red ink]

I'm with Derek on this one...

I have friends who are "newer" to the hobby than me keeping Death adders, Taipans and scrubs who have never even kept a small python and doing it successfully.

Reason being they did the research, knew what they were in for and provide all the correct care.
If people wish to keep any snake do the research and provide the proper care.

There's tons of info out there.... the only reasons people "would" run into problems is due to poor research. Even a corn snake requires a bit of research to be kept successfully, so if you don't want a corn and want a retic instead, why buy and care for a corn?

If they aren't successful at keeping a corn is the reason being they did not "level up" properly and should have started with a feather boa? No the reason they are not successful is due to lack of research and understanding....

I don't believe in advance species, it's just advanced understanding and research. Any species will thrive under the proper conditions. What does conditions are is for the keeper to understand the animal species has nothing to do with it, they are just there to be cared for.

I have the license to keep Oxyuranus microlepidotus and Crocodylus prosus, reason i don't is because i understand the level of husbandry requirement they need and danger they pose. Neither of which i desire to undertake.

[jpsteele80]

I'm with Derek on this one...

I have friends who are "newer" to the hobby than me keeping Death adders, Taipans and scrubs who have never even kept a small python and doing it successfully.

Reason being they did the research, knew what they were in for and provide all the correct care.
If people wish to keep any snake do the research and provide the proper care.

There's tons of info out there.... the only reasons people "would" run into problems is due to poor research. Even a corn snake requires a bit of research to be kept successfully, so if you don't want a corn and want a retic instead, why buy and care for a corn?

If they aren't successful at keeping a corn is the reason being they did not "level up" properly and should have started with a feather boa? No the reason they are not successful is due to lack of research and understanding....

I don't believe in advance species, it's just advanced understanding and research. Any species will thrive under the proper conditions. What does conditions are is for the keeper to understand the animal species has nothing to do with it, they are just there to be cared for.

I have the license to keep Oxyuranus microlepidotus and Crocodylus prosus, reason i don't is because i understand the level of husbandry requirement they need and danger they pose. Neither of which i desire to undertake.

So if I've never had a snake before and I do research it's ok for me to go out and get a cobra? I have to disagree with you a bit here, you can do all the research in the world but if you can't keep a corn or a ball python alive you certainly don't need a retic or a hot

[red ink]

So if I've never had a snake before and I do research it's ok for me to go out and get a cobra? I have to disagree with you a bit here, you can do all the research in the world but if you can't keep a corn or a ball python alive you certainly don't need a retic or a hot


Yeah... you can keep a cobra with just doing the research despite never keeping a ball or a corn. Plenty of people around South East Asia do it, and some of them don't even have access to the internet :)

[jpsteele80]

Yeah... you can keep a cobra with just doing the research despite never keeping a ball or a corn. Plenty of people around South East Asia do it, and some of them don't even have access to the internet :)

Well this is one are where we disagree, people in south east Asia also have to deal with them In rice fields And removing them from there houses so there used to dealing with them as well.

[Sublimeballs]

I'm going to have to agree, other species can't get you "ready" for another other then learning how to keep the enclosure in similar conditions. I'm a believer in if you want to try something a "step up", gets some hands on experience with it. If you think you want a retic, or any other giants, find someone that is willing to let you handle( attempt to influence what it does)theirs. it will give you a good idea of what your getting into. For training for hots(as it has been pointed out) fast aggressive non venomous snakes are the best thing without possible loss of limb or life.

Edit: obviously handling an animal once isn't enough, you need to experience feeding, cleaning, etc...

All this stems back to research. You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive. After proper research if you still have an eye for what you want that's what you should get.

[red ink]

Well this is one are where we disagree, people in south east Asia also have to deal with them In rice fields And removing them from there houses so there used to dealing with them as well.

So how does dealing with a ball or a corn prepare you for a cobra... neither of which are a cobra?

[Sublimeballs]

An aggressive black racer will help much better then a corn or a ball.

[Kera]

I think it comes down to maturity and respect for the animal. If you know you aren't ready for a cobra, but know you want one eventually, care for an animal with a similar attitude, just not as dangerous. I agree with the research part as well, if you do enough research and know what you're getting yourself into, you can do it. That too, though, ties in with maturity.

[Dude123]

Thanks for the posts guys, its an interesting topic.

Just to be clear; I'm certainly not suggesting that one must own a corn or ball before moving on to another species. My initial post was brought on by the fact that on most places I frequent, I see a lot of, "Newbie wants to keep a Chameleon/Varanid/giant snake/Sulcata tortoise/hots" posts that end up with replies like "(Insert species here) isn't really a good beginner animal, you should get a leopard gecko/corn snake etc" but I have never seen any sort of suggested progression list and it made me curious what people were thinking.

Obviously many of these posts are just pointing out facts people might not know before they dive in, but I've seen the same responses to people who keep reptiles, but only more of the basic species.

An aggressive black racer will help much better then a corn or a ball.

This is kind of what I was thinking about. Would a list of species that would help gain experience for another species be a good thing? A list need not begin with Corns or Ball Pythons, but rather would include only relevant species in regards to the end goal. A list for hots might include suggestions of fast, aggressive non venomous species that people might want to hone their skills with before getting a viper. A list for giants might include species that are large and robust, but not to the extremes of a Burm or Anaconda.

I'm big on the research aspect of things. Personally, whenever I come across a species that interests me I add it to a list I keep on my computer. I also research these species and create my own notes or care sheets on the species. and use these to help me decide if I can provide the correct care needs when considering a new species.

[Derek Roddy]

Keeping any reptile comes down to one thing really.....observation skills. The rest is moot.

Snake is always on cool side of cage....it's too hot.
Snake is always on hot side of cage.....it's too cool.
Sitting in water bowl....too dry or pest.....

Even with breeding and hatching eggs....what works for me here in Florida might not work for those in Michigan. You have to have observation skills and a rounded overall knowledge of all snakes.

It's not rocket science. Haha.

I've had all types of snakes over the years and the only thing that helped me understanding the species was keeping that species.

All snakes are the same in that they're are cold blooded and they all have the same relative needs...give or take a few degrees but, they all have their own attributes and you can only learn those attributes is to experience it.

D

[Sublimeballs]

It really wouldn't be a species progression list so much as figuring out what reasons a person has for wanting a species and and suggesting something similar that is more suited to that individual person.

With hots that's what a lot of people have to do during the required training time to be able to own hots in regulated states. Racers, coachwhips, bull snakes, blood pythons, amazon tree boas, and some other stuff I've heard of being used during this training.

For large pythons I don't really see a stepping stone to a mainland retic other then maybe a super dwarf retic. But no matter what you can't simulate the strength of the animal.

[wareagleA5]

Great question.

Keeping a corn can't "prepare" you for keeping a Boa, Keeping a Boa will not "prepare" you for keeping a BlackHead and keeping a BLackHead will not "prepare" you for keeping a Tiger snake.

The best way for anybody interested in learning about snakes (overall...no matter what the species) is not owning a snake at all.

Observation and basic understanding of a reptiles basic needs is all you need to successfully "house" any snake....big or small.
Observe them in their natural habitat, study their basic biology and work and listen to others who have experience working with said animals.

I think bad decisions are what actually cause issues with keeping various types of snakes.

If you have room for a retic and you understand the basic needs and requirements for keeping such an animal...you should have no issue.
Making a bad decision to keep a 16 foot animal in an apartment....is the actual problem. Not having the snake.

And making those decisions have nothing to do with species but, knowledge of yourself and, what you know you're capable of.

That is sometimes harder to understand than the animal.

D
I think you hit the nail right on the head, I've done that with a Nile monitor in an apartment and while having a job that had me away from home to much. Now that I'm older and I understand my disease, impulsiveness, I'm trying not to over do it while I wait on a long long list for my Red Ackies.

[Terranaut]

I agree with Derek in both of his posts. Starter or progression snakes are for those who learn by making husbandry mistakes and not those who can get their "stuff" together first. This is solely in the hands of the keeper and not the snake. If you get the proper enclosure set up with the proper husbandry and follow a proper diet plan....it should not matter what you have had before. Another bad point is that people will sell or give their "prep snake" away once they buy the dream snake. These things live 20+yrs. Not fair for a corn to be turffed in favor of a retic. Or whatever snakes you want to swap with those.

[jpsteele80]

So how does dealing with a ball or a corn prepare you for a cobra... neither of which are a cobra?

Then why do they consider green trees and bloods for intermediate keepers and retics and burms for advanced keepers, why have a range at all just tell beginners if you have done your research you ready to jump straight into vipers and cobras, I believe this is done so you can be ready for when you do get that animal you want. I've been keeping Reptiles for a little over 20 years and I'd love a pair of eyelash vipers and have probably done a good 3 years researching them and could nail everything down husbandry wise no problem but wouldn't feel comfortable working with hots until I had done so with someone experienced. You telling someone if you have done research that your ready, what happens when someone gets that retic and it's the spawn of satan, that research doesn't prepare you for that, working with another demon snake that's smaller prepares you for that. It's just a difference of opinion is all.

[Terranaut]

A demon corn will not prepare you for a demon retic. Having 3 or 4 friends helping will. Getting proper knowledge is also not the same as googling it and hoping you know everything.

[jpsteele80]

A demon corn will not prepare you for a demon retic. Having 3 or 4 friends helping will. Getting proper knowledge is also not the same as googling it and hoping you know everything.

I agree with what your saying to an extent, in the end it's all going to come down to the individual and there going to get what they want to get anyways, but I think that's a reason that so many animals are re homed is because people are not prepared to take care of them.

[red ink]

Then why do they consider green trees and bloods for intermediate keepers and retics and burms for advanced keepers, why have a range at all just tell beginners if you have done your research you ready to jump straight into vipers and cobras, I believe this is done so you can be ready for when you do get that animal you want. I've been keeping Reptiles for a little over 20 years and I'd love a pair of eyelash vipers and have probably done a good 3 years researching them and could nail everything down husbandry wise no problem but wouldn't feel comfortable working with hots until I had done so with someone experienced. You telling someone if you have done research that your ready, what happens when someone gets that retic and it's the spawn of satan, that research doesn't prepare you for that, working with another demon snake that's smaller prepares you for that. It's just a difference of opinion is all.

Who's "they"? How can "they" set the gauge for "levels" of keeping?

I was working with a PhD student doing research into the colour vision of vens when I was at Uni. He has never kept a snake in their life but I wouldn't tell him. "Don't keep a taipan" if he chose to because he hadn't kept a "beginner" species.

"They"... seem to be elitist know it alls from my point of view. You just can't go around telling people they can't keep this or can't keep that because of preconceive notion of their level of ability or lack there off from keeping a "beginner" species.

The "range" is there because people choose to believe it. I for one don't.

So if someone who has never kept snakes... done the same 3 years of research as yourself then got somebody with experience to guide them:

Come time to purchase the eyelash viper it's a "no"... go and keep a "beginner" species first because you've never kept a beginner snake?

[Mikoh4792]

I don't believe in the progression mindset. I think it comes down to the individual person's ability and willingness to learn and prepare.

[Sublimeballs]

I said it already to have properly researched an animal at the extremes were talking about getting hands on experience in all aspects of keeping is needed. You need to actually know what you're getting into, the Internet can't help you with that.

With big snakes you need to know what it feels like to know you arnt in control and can only influence the animal so much without a lot of effort from multiple people.

With hots you need experience with fast and angery snakes and someone teachimg you. You need to have safety down 100% and never waiver or get over confident and take risks. You should know every aspect of the animal you plan to get and have emergency bite protocol within sight of the cage. And be prepared for a bite, know where anti venom is for your species.

Both of these groups of snakes arnt for your average hobbyist. And come with great risk to you and others.

[jpsteele80]

Who's "they"? How can "they" set the gauge for "levels" of keeping?

I was working with a PhD student doing research into the colour vision of vens when I was at Uni. He has never kept a snake in their life but I wouldn't tell him. "Don't keep a taipan" if he chose to because he hadn't kept a "beginner" species.

"They"... seem to be elitist know it alls from my point of view. You just can't go around telling people they can't keep this or can't keep that because of preconceive notion of their level of ability or lack there off from keeping a "beginner" species.

The "range" is there because people choose to believe it. I for one don't.

So if someone who has never kept snakes... done the same 3 years of research as yourself then got somebody with experience to guide them:

Come time to purchase the eyelash viper it's a "no"... go and keep a "beginner" species first because you've never kept a beginner snake?

I get what your saying and I have never told anyone that they can't get something, yeah I may recommend something a little easier to keep if it's a beginner and I have seen people do great going into what would be considered an advanced species and I have seen people prove my point of getting something they didn't need and end up re homing it. When I say "they" I ment the general community and what has been the general consensus for years, yeah that obviously needs to change as I agree with a lot of what your saying, but as far as hots I don't agree that someone that has never kept a snake but has done research on them should jump into them but that's just my opinion. One mistake and it could cost you your life.

[Terranaut]

I but I think that's a reason that so many animals are re homed is because people are not prepared to take care of them.


Had they have gained the knowledge they should have...they would be prepared. I also believe these are animals and not stamps we collect. Get one in hopes of it teaching you so you can get the real one you want also makes for "give away" snakes. Learn what you need to get what you want.

[jpsteele80]

Had they have gained the knowledge they should have...they would be prepared. I also believe these are animals and not stamps we collect. Get one in hopes of it teaching you so you can get the real one you want also makes for "give away" snakes. Learn what you need to get what you want.

I agree they are animals and not stamps and I have never advocated to get rid of an animal once you move on. Like I said I agree with a lot of what your saying.

[Derek Roddy]

With hots that's what a lot of people have to do during the required training time to be able to own hots in regulated states. Racers, coachwhips, bull snakes, blood pythons, amazon tree boas, and some other stuff I've heard of being used during this training.

I know a dozen "venomous" trainers here in florida and none of them use nothing but hots to "train" understudies.

I have never seen or heard of them training with anything other than hots. What good would it do to train with a snake that acts nothing like other snakes?

The biggest excuse I used to hear about keepers wanting venomiods cobras was "so, I can learn about cobras". The only way you can learn about "cobras".....it to work with "CobraS"....not A cobra.

They all have different personalities and actions....even from sub species to sub species. It's very short sighted to think that having one cobra will teach you about all cobras....much less having a racer teach you about them. haha.

And what's funny about that is.... every keeper I ever heard make that statement about having a vemomiod.....has been biten by a non vemoniod.

Don't fall into that trap....because it is a trap.

Learn yourself first....then worry about the animal.

D

[Sublimeballs]

Derek the racer isn't getting you used to a cobra. It gets you used to being careful around snakes in general. And so your mentor can assess what if anything that is going to get you killed in your handleing techniques. This is how my cousins training was. As I said another species can't prepare you for something different. But with hots any all experience is helpful.

[Derek Roddy]

Derek the racer isn't getting you used to a cobra. It gets you used to being careful around snakes in general.

And this is the point I'm making. Who would handle a cobra without being careful around snakes "in general"?

That's exactly the flaw in logic that I'm talking about.

Of course, having experience handling snakes and being comfortable around snakes is a must if you want to handle venomous.

That has nothing to do with any species at all.....it comes down to you making the right decision for you and your life.

For example....when I was considering keeping hots the very first thing I asked myself is...."Am I ready to die"?

That was a serious question that lead me to make a decision about me....not the animal I choose to keep. Understand?

The same thing can be asked about a retic, burm, African Rock...because anyone of those animals CAN and WILL kill you given the right opportunity.

Are you willing to take that step.

THAT is what will prepare you for any animal you want to keep.

D

[Derek Roddy]

And, not only that but.... how does handling a harmless snake "get you used to" handling a snake that could kill you?


D

[red ink]

That has nothing to do with any species at all.....it comes down to you making the right decision for you and your life.

For example....when I was considering keeping hots the very first thing I asked myself is...."Am I ready to die"?

That was a serious question that lead me to make a decision about me....not the animal I choose to keep. Understand?


D

Same exact question I asked myself about the elapids we have here when I was entertaining the idea of getting vens..

The question the really sacred the crap out of me was, can I live with myself if the wife got bitten by a Mulga, Taipan or Death Adder should the unthinkable happen and they get out around the house without me knowing.

I don't doubt my capabilities around hots... played with Naja philippinesis growing up in the old country as a young un, can't bring myself to play with them now. Well maybe I had a little cheeky play last time I was there.

[red ink]

What I don't get though is the notion that some species are "advanced" specimens due to husbandry requirements. Some species require a bit more care but I would not call them, intermediate or advance.

Don't be "lazy" or slack as a keeper and no species is advanced...

Why is a diamond python more "advanced" than the rest of the carpets?
The requirement of lower temps and possible addition of UV?... so just pay attention to the temps and get a UV bulb, whats so advanced about that.

Why is a GTP more "advanced" than a spotted python. The specific humidity needs and an arboreal set up? Get a hygrometer and use a humidity retaining substrate (sphagnum moss) in an enclosure that can handle high humidity. How much more difficult can that be from the care of a spotted python?

[Sublimeballs]

And this is the point I'm making. Who would handle a cobra without being careful around snakes "in general"?

That's exactly the flaw in logic that I'm talking about.

Of course, having experience handling snakes and being comfortable around snakes is a must if you want to handle venomous.

That has nothing to do with any species at all.....it comes down to you making the right decision for you and your life.

For example....when I was considering keeping hots the very first thing I asked myself is...."Am I ready to die"?

That was a serious question that lead me to make a decision about me....not the animal I choose to keep. Understand?

The same thing can be asked about a retic, burm, African Rock...because anyone of those animals CAN and WILL kill you given the right opportunity.

Are you willing to take that step.

THAT is what will prepare you for any animal you want to keep.

D

I think you're reading to deeply into some of what I've said, that or this is more a generalized thing and not directed at me.


I agree, I already said i feel no species can prepare you for another, and proper research on something as extreme an undertaking as hots or giants requires a good amount of hands on experience with them.

The problem isn't people like you or me or most of the people on this site. The problem is that a ton of people are stupid or think they're invincible.. I'm sure there are plenty of idiots out there that would jump at the chance to handle a cobra without any knowledge of how to be careful around snakes. Or even own one if they knew how easy they are to get. These people arnt going to take a look at themselves.

I agree completely that its all a matter of making the right decision for your life. It's the same reason I don't own mainland retics.

As for the racer thing. I do feel a non venomous snake can help prepare you for hots. Most of us take much more risk with harmless snakes. if that's all you have experience with, a mentor can help you correct the sloppiness in your handling techniques and teach you how to keep the head safely away. This isn't for people that say have been working with wild hots and now would like to own them this is for complete beginners.


I got done typing this then I accidentally deleted it so it did sound much better, but hopefully you get my point.

[Sublimeballs]

What I don't get though is the notion that some species are "advanced" specimens due to husbandry requirements. Some species require a bit more care but I would not call them, intermediate or advance.

Don't be "lazy" or slack as a keeper and no species is advanced...

Why is a diamond python more "advanced" than the rest of the carpets?
The requirement of lower temps and possible addition of UV?... so just pay attention to the temps and get a UV bulb, whats so advanced about that.

Why is a GTP more "advanced" than a spotted python. The specific humidity needs and an arboreal set up? Get a hygrometer and use a humidity retaining substrate (sphagnum moss) in an enclosure that can handle high humidity. How much more difficult can that be from the care of a spotted python?


Haha, that's exactly what it is. How much do I actually have to try levels.lol