strange lump in chest area?

[Sharlynn93]

Iris (CRB) has turned down food for a few weeks now, attributed it to her history of finicky feeding (from feeding records from the store and what we have encountered here and there) and the change in enclosure...took her out this morning since I was doing some picture sessions with a few others and she was VERY agitated (this happened once before when hubby tried to hold her in the early morning also, she may just hate mornings?) snapped a few pics of the bulge (best I could, since she tried to tag me 5 or 6 times which is NOT in her character at all)...I will try calling our vet tomorrow, but he isn't a reptile specialist, (but has seen her before), and no specialists that I have found yet within a decent driving distance...I work 3rd shift so its really hard for me to drive 4 hrs 1 way to a vet and still get sleep for work :( has anyone ever seen this before? I googled, but so far all I have found is a possible abcess, or a congenital heart defect? :( no regurge history at all with her, and has been urinating and defecating normally...temperment has always been extremely docile except for this incident and the 1 other morning incident...I'm stumped and worried...

[Will0W783]

It's really impossible to tell without an X-ray unfortunately. It could be a number of things, such as abcess, tumor, broken rib(s), or a congenital defect that didn't manifest until recently.

I have a nice normal boa that had a few messed up ribs from birth; I didn't notice it until the snake started to get bigger and it became more noticeable. He's been to my vet and since he's eating, shedding and not in pain we're just letting him live his life.

If your snake suddenly stopped eating at about the time this cropped up, that's not a good sign though, unfortunately. I would think that the two most likely causes are an abscess or a tumor. Either will require surgery. I hope that it turns out to not be too bad and Iris can recover. Please keep us posted...I'll have my fingers crossed for you!

[Sharlynn93]

thanks, Willow! I will call my vet, he can at least do an x-ray, and if I have to take that somewhere else for evaluation, maybe I can get someone else to go with me so I can nap on the drive...my poor baby...

[Sharlynn93]

waiting for a call back from the vet office right now (couldn't sleep, worried too much)...as soon as I mentioned having a snake there before they even remembered her name...LOL...they talk about her a lot, I'm told...she is talking to the doc about getting her in...

[Sharlynn93]

appt at 10am tomorrow...neither vet (that will see snakes) is in today...keeping fingers crossed!

[EL Ziggy]

Best wishes Sharlynn.

[Sharlynn93]

I feel like a dork...I can't stop crying..ugh..she is my favorite of my snakes...i nursed her through her RI, dehydration, got her switched to F/T, then to rats, got her gaining weight nicely..she was up to 1300g before this happened...I was so proud of how good she was doing, getting her new house, etc...I just hope she pulls through this...

[sharthun]

I feel like a dork...I can't stop crying..ugh..she is my favorite of my snakes...i nursed her through her RI, dehydration, got her switched to F/T, then to rats, got her gaining weight nicely..she was up to 1300g before this happened...I was so proud of how good she was doing, getting her new house, etc...I just hope she pulls through this...

Hang in there and good luck!

[Sharlynn93]

thanks...just got off phone w hubby, going to have my daughter go w me tomorrow, so if she needs surgery (i'm sure that would be out of town at a specialist) he can wait to take the day off to go with me for that...going to try and get some sleep now...really missing my continuous shift at this point...my days off during the week worked great for this type of stuff...vets appts were never an issue before...

[dbank999]

Sorry to hear about this :(! I hope everything works out and Iris pulls through!

Kudos for taking the right course of action ASAP... hopefully new owners will see this and emulate this behavior when needed!

[formica]

hope its something simple to resolve, fingers crossed for her! thoughts are with you are Iris tomorrow



I would think that the two most likely causes are an abscess or a tumor.

can tumors grow quickly enough to appear suddenly like that? didn't realize! or would it be secondary edema or infection in that case?

could be a blockage/obstruction somewhere along her digestive tract too perhaps?

[Will0W783]

I'm glad you're getting Iris to the vet- that's your best bet. Hang in there; I know it's tough, but you'll get through it, and hopefully it's not too bad.

Formica, Yes a tumour could grow to where you'd just suddenly notice it. In those cases, the underlying tumor has been growing for a long time, and has just suddenly reached a critical mass to disturb the scales. I had a huge ETB that went off feed- the weight loss combined with tumor growth made it just seem to suddenly appear.
This case could definitely also be a blockage, or an infection/abscess, or a swollen gland of some sort (thyroid, pancreas), or bone problems (I had a beautiful sweet albino purple retic that ended up with bone cancer- that was insanely fast growing). It's really impossible to tell until she gets the x-rays done.

[Snakesitter]

I think you are going about this the right way: x-rays should clear up what you are dealing with. I would additionally suggest that your local vet overnight copies to the nearest herp specialist for an expert opinion. Fingers crossed that it's something easily correctable.

[Sharlynn93]

Thanks everyone. I am going to have a difficult time concentrating on work tonight, I know that much.. :(

[shaunyboy]

It's really impossible to tell without an X-ray unfortunately. It could be a number of things, such as abcess, tumor, broken rib(s), or a congenital defect that didn't manifest until recently.

I have a nice normal boa that had a few messed up ribs from birth; I didn't notice it until the snake started to get bigger and it became more noticeable. He's been to my vet and since he's eating, shedding and not in pain we're just letting him live his life.

If your snake suddenly stopped eating at about the time this cropped up, that's not a good sign though, unfortunately. I would think that the two most likely causes are an abscess or a tumor. Either will require surgery. I hope that it turns out to not be too bad and Iris can recover. Please keep us posted...I'll have my fingers crossed for you!

Kimberley has covered it well


cheers shaun

[sharthun]

Definitely keep us posted!

[Sharlynn93]

Iris has 2 abscesses...the main one (where the lump is) actually almost touches her spine when she lies on her belly :( that is why she isn't eating...they didn't attempt to drain it, it feels pretty solid (which they said is common with snake abscesses, which means it is a cheesey substance and would be very difficult to drain, and Iris was obviously in pain and very stressed, she bit me for the first time and tried to bite the doctor)...so they gave her an injection of pain killers, and a dose of baytril...I have oral doses of antibiotics and pain killers to give her over the next week, and a follow up after that...poor Iris was so stressed she peed in her pillowcase, all over my daughter, the counter, the floor, etc...had to pop her in the tub as soon as we got home (which she seemed to really enjoy)...she seemed quite happy to get back to her enclosure (with no more bites)...good news is, she has not dropped any weight from not eating for 3 weeks...still at 1280 grams...I will upload her xrays as soon as I get them downloaded from the disc...

[sharthun]

Hope she recovers well!;)

[Will0W783]

I'm so glad it's only abscesses! I was really worried about bone cancer; I had a retic with that, and it grew so insanely fast. The antibiotics should clear up whatever infection she has and hopefully she makes a rapid and full recovery!

Did the vet have any ideas about how she got an abscess on her spine?

[Sharlynn93]

Best I can do is cell pics of my computer screen...cant seem to figure out how to save them to my computer...the vet seems to think the abscess may have been manifesting back from when she used to eat live...may have gotten scratched....just another reason to feed f/t!! Keep that in mind, all new keepers!!!

[Sharlynn93]

Here is the best pic...sorry, the others just show a displaced rib...

[Sharlynn93]

Idk how well you can see this, but she left a nice bite mark on my knuckle...lol...bled like an s.o.b. but didn't hurt...my first real bite (my corns and garter don't count..never broke skin) lol...better get used to it w the gtp coming, eh? ;)

[Sharlynn93]

thanks, willow and sharthun! I was worried it was a tumor, or even a heart abnormality...every one of my snakes is like a child to me...I treat them like any member of the family...I couldn't bear losing Iris, she is my favorite of all of them...she may not be the "prettiest" one of them all, but she has my heart...

[EL Ziggy]

Good luck Shar. We're all wishing Iris a full and speedy recovery!

[Sharlynn93]

Thank you! wish me luck NOT getting bit in the face while giving 2 oral injections per day for the next week :( but she is worth it... :)

[philbyi-guy]

Hope she pulls through. Must be hard

[sharthun]

Thank you! wish me luck NOT getting bit in the face while giving 2 oral injections per day for the next week :( but she is worth it... :)

You are setting a fine example for responsible keepers!;)

[Sharlynn93]

You are setting a fine example for responsible keepers!;)
thank you...that really means a lot to me...i would do anything for my "family" whether they be blood, furred, or scaled...when I take on a responsibility for someone, they get the best I can possibly give...

[formica]

glad to hear its something treatable, hope she's feeling better soon :)

[LarryS]

Hoping for a full recovery!

[Will0W783]

You're very welcome Shar. I understand what you mean, I get very attached to all my snakes too, even the deadly ones. Learning how to administer antibiotics is a very useful skill for any snake owner.

P.S. If the oral antibiotics don't fix the problem (I'm not a fan of oral meds for snakes; they have too strong a digestive system and degrade most of the medicine before it gets into the bloodstream), you can purchase Tylan from any Tractor Supply Company.

Tylan is a great, broad-spectrum, injectable antibiotic marketed for cattle. However, it works wonders in snakes as well. It's one of the very few that is effective against mycoplasm bacteria, does not have the tissue burning of Baytril or the dehydrating effects of Amikacin, and is very well tolerated. I keep bottles of both strengths (250mg/mL and 50mg/mL) on hand at all times.

It costs between $15-32/bottle and the dosage for snakes is 50-100mg/kg. I usually go with 100mg/kg. You inject using an insulin syringe (available over the counter in most states now or order from your vet) at a shallow 45 degree angle into the FIRST third of the body. Feel for the spine, then move halfway down the side of the snake's body, get the needle between scales and inject. You give Tylan every other day for 4-5 doses.

[Sharlynn93]

That is great to know, willow! Thanks! I wonder if that stuff would work for my rat..judging from research I think she has that pneumonia..I lost my hairless to it last week...

[formica]

antibiotics should be prescribed only when needed, the misuse of antibiotics speeds up the evolution and spread of resistant bacteria, infections should be confirmed by a professional or you may do more harm than good

[Sharlynn93]

gotcha...okie dokie...just hate to lose her, she has such a sweet personality...but I'm not spending $200 for a $5 rat... :(

[Terranaut]

antibiotics should be prescribed only when needed, the misuse of antibiotics speeds up the evolution and spread of resistant bacteria, infections should be confirmed by a professional or you may do more harm than good

Not using antibiotics until the bacteria is dead is the misuse your talking about. This does not apply if you use it long enough to kill the infection. It's when people stop part way through treatment that there is an issue. Taking an antibiotic that was not necessary is only bad for the host. It kills good bacteria as well. As long as you use it for the proper duration no harm will befall mankind. :)

[Will0W783]

Originally posted by Formica: antibiotics should be prescribed only when needed, the misuse of antibiotics speeds up the evolution and spread of resistant bacteria, infections should be confirmed by a professional or you may do more harm than good

I do not advocate rampant unwarranted use of antibiotics, and never said that I did. In this case, the vet confirmed abscesses. In my case, I keep mainly venomous- good luck finding a veterinarian who will see a venomous snake. Therefore, I have become skilled in identifying infections and knowing when to treat them.

A good practice when dealing with RIs:
1. Make sure the snake is not going into shed. Some snakes look/sound like crap when in shed.
2. Bump up heat and humidity for 5 days. If the animal improves, don't give drugs
3. If the heat/humidity bump does not improve the snake, or if it gets worse, begin treatment.

Other cases need to be dealt with on an individual basis. For lumps such as the OP's snake has, a vet visit is in order. Lumps on a hot would have to be monitored if it can't be x-rayed.

I'm sure bacteria in snakes can become antibiotic resistant, and therefore giving antibiotics too often or too soon could result in the snake not being able to be treated easily later if it gets another infection. This is true for any species. Snake infections can usually be identified pretty easily by experienced keepers however.

I only brought up the Tylan here because the OP has a snake with a confirmed bacterial infection that its body has walled off into abscesses. Treating with injectable Tylan if the oral Baytril does not work would be warranted here.

[Sharlynn93]

btw..I bought a plastic face shield to protect my face while trying to administer these dang oral drugs! LOL...piercings are fine, but if I get one I want it to be by a pro, not a pet! ;)

[Will0W783]

Good idea Sharlynn; snake-administered piercings are not fun!

[Sharlynn93]

especially in YOUR household! LOL ;)

[Snakesitter]

Glad to hear the visit went smoothly (except for the doctor's fingers), and that it is a treatable condition. Your plan sounds good. Here's to a hopefully quick recovery!!!

[Snakesitter]

Great post!

[Snakesitter]

I agree 100%. I'll lecture peole I know about finishing their full course of meds because of this. ;-)

[Sharlynn93]

just a quick update, dosing actually went well last night...no signs of aggression, whatsoever..(I really think she hates daytime hours...) oral antibiotics are definitely a 2 person job, though...thank GOODNESS my wonderful husband was able to help me! her lump has already diminished in size so much that we had to actually look for it...hoping the next week goes as well as last night...her belly is looking quite pink again so she is apparently going into shed...but she was full blue when she had her RI and we were able to dose, so hoping for the best! :D really excited that she didn't freak out like she did at the vets, and the day before...maybe the pain killers are helping her relax...all I know is I think I will finally be able to sleep today, now that i know she seems to be feeling better...its been a killer week for me :( I'm such a worry wart, I know...but she has come so far, I want her to be with me for a long time....hoping she can eat next week...I felt bad feeding the others, again, and skipping her....

[EL Ziggy]

Hang in there Shar, sounds like she's coming around.

[sharthun]

Great news! maybe you and the hubby could use some pain killers!:p

[Sharlynn93]

We are planning on a movie night this weekend :) divergent is in our local theater and we have been dying to see it! :D

[sharthun]

We are planning on a movie night this weekend :) divergent is in our local theater and we have been dying to see it! :D

Cool! I want to see that one as well!:)

[Sharlynn93]

I will let you know how it is (unless something comes up and we don't go, that happens a lot...) but hopefully we get to go! :D

[Snakesitter]

Thrilled to hear the good progess report!

[sharthun]

How's Iris doing? :)

[Sharlynn93]

Super cranky tonight. Couldn't distribute meds. Vet suggested feeding her a mouse and see if it calms her down. So we did and she ate it. She struck at us about 50 times :( the lump is 95% gone, though...see how she is tomorrow...we may end up going with the injection method...

[sharthun]

Super cranky tonight. Couldn't distribute meds. Vet suggested feeding her a mouse and see if it calms her down. So we did and she ate it. She struck at us about 50 times :( the lump is 95% gone, though...see how she is tomorrow...we may end up going with the injection method...

95% is a very good improvement!

[Sharlynn93]

Can really only tell now by the scales staying distorted..
Thinking im gonna try and get some syringes and give her shots instead. I can wrangle her into a pillowcase for that...last night she acted like a super p'd off rattlesnake..
I do not want to overstress her by holding her down and prying her mouth open...

[Snakesitter]

Look on the bright side: the fact she was that active shows a massive improvement in energy. She's on the mend!!! :-)

[pdomensis]

Is it possible to dose a thawed rat and feed it? just curious. Glad to hear your girl is doing so much better.

[Sharlynn93]

I thought about dosing her food, but if I did that, I would be afraid to handle her and threaten a regurge when dosing the next night...also thought about just dosing a small mouse each night and give her a very small meal each night...but wasn't sure of the ramifications of that...but we have gotten a couple more doses into her and only have a few more left...she hasn't been aggressive since I fed her that small mouse the other night...she is full blue right now so she may have been a bit defensive because of that, plus the move to the new enclosure, plus the pain, etc, etc...she seemed her normal self this morning and tonight, but it will take me a while before I trust her around the kids again...last thing I want is for one of them to get bit and have Jason's ex take us to court :/

[Sharlynn93]

Cool! I want to see that one as well!:)

btw, sharthun, Divergent was awesome! can't wait to get it on blue ray and watch it again! :D

[Will0W783]

I'm so glad that Iris is doing better! Keep up the good work Sharlynn! Btw, I think injectable antibiotics would be a good way to go. They seem to work better for snakes in general, due to the strength of their digestive juices.

Keep us posted. :)

[Sharlynn93]

I will :) if these final few doses of orals don't take care of it, we have purchased the tylan..we are determined she will beat this...she has come WAY too far with us to lose her now...she is now actually using her hides instead of hiding in the foliage way back in the back of the tank behind the hides...I think she is feeling better...time will tell!

we DID try a dose of tylan (not injected) with our sick rat...mixed it with the water like I researched, etc...(figured we were gonna lose her anyway if this doesn't work)...she seems to be feeling much better already...ate a few carrot shreds (hasnt eaten in much in a week) and is roaming about and grooming herself...came up to the glass when I looked in on her...we will see how she fares...her premature litter (lost all but 3) are doing well with a foster mom...going to treat them all if this treatment seems to work...maybe we can wipe the bacteria from the whole colony and avoid this issue with both the rodents and the snakes in the future...worth a shot, anyway!

[sharthun]

btw, sharthun, Divergent was awesome! can't wait to get it on blue ray and watch it again! :D

Awesome! Thanks for the Review!

Steve

[Starbuck]

From my days in small animal, we used tylan powder for gut issues, but it is notoriously bitter, so I wouldn't count on the rat drinking it on its own, I would dose it with a small dropper and then be sure to provide fresh water. May be a different type of tylan product though.

I agree with willow that oral antibiotics are not typically my first choice. Did the vet do a needle agitate our culture to determine susceptibility? I've found that injectables are actually very easy and low stress tip administer. Good luck, and I'm glad to see she is doing better.


I would also add that reptilian abscesses unless caught very early can be very difficult to treat with antibiotics alone, though on the plus side they don't seem to go systemic as readily as mammals, and seem to be slow progressing and painful. I would keep a close eye in the future to make sure it doesn't resurface.

[Sharlynn93]

Our vet isn't a reptile specialist, but she is a new vet who has treated snakes in her previous place of employment. No culture, but as I said before, the lump was kind of solid so a culture would have been difficult since she was so aggressive that day...she responded well so far, but I bought the tylan and syringes for a backup in case this round doesn't work...and I will definitely be doing very regular inspections to make sure it does not resurface since I know I didn't catch this one early :( given her history, when she gets moody I give her time, and I guess I shouldn't have this time...I feel terrible but I thought she was just p*ssy because of the new enclosure and my job change resulting in less attention....(she seemed to "enjoy" her out of tank climbing and roaming time)...

[Will0W783]

You're doing all that you can; snakes do not tend to show any signs of illness until it's pretty bad, so don't feel badly that you didn't catch it sooner.
Snakes can get "moody" because of many things; it's likely a new cage and a change in handling schedule also contributed. I don't bother snakes when they are moody either; it's not worth being bitten.

[Sharlynn93]

thanks, willow...I have been beating myself up about this... :'(

[Will0W783]

I know it's hard, but don't beat yourself up. You got her to the vet as soon as you noticed, and she's getting better. I've had snakes suddenly go from looking perfect to looking really really sick almost overnight. I'm just really glad for you that it was only an abscess. :)

[Snakesitter]

^^ Agreed! You are doing well by her!

[Sharlynn93]

Thanks, guys :)

[Sharlynn93]

update...after a FULL shed, in 2 segments (i'm assuming it is could be from being so swollen at the middle section that it separated)...Iris has NO signs of having any bit of a lump..no sign of aggression like she was having...still no appetite, but considering we put her in a huge enclosure just as she was getting ill, then went into shed, we will see how she does in a day or two...I do have a backup of a round of tylan if the lump seems to reappear...she was a complete sweetheart like she always was this morning...i feel terrible we didn't get the full round of baytril into her, but wrestling her in full blue, feeling aggressive, while acclimating to a new enclosure seemed a bit too much at 1 time...will be monitoring her daily to watch for any signs of the lump reappearing...then will go with the injections...orals are a terrible way to go with snakes in blue...did it the first time around with her, but she was just super aggressive this time...i was afraid of tearing her skin :(

[formica]

how many doses did she miss? its really important to give her all the doses, if it hasnt been long since the last one then I would discuss the issue with her Vet, to see if more doses would be appropriate, you'll get the hang of injections pretty quickly, a towel is a simple way to get it done quickly

[Sharlynn93]

She missed 2...its been about 5 days...we were discussing just starting a whole new regimen of meds to make sure it is completely knocked out of her system.

[shaunyboy]

thanks, willow...I have been beating myself up about this... :'(

an abscess can appear really quickly,so i wouldn't beat yourself up pal

also as Kimberley said,snakes can go from a picture of health to really ill overnight

glad it's something treatable


cheers shaun

[Snakesitter]

I agree with Formica. However, five days is just long enough finishing might not work. I'd see what your vet says -- but you are doing a great job by already having a second round ready to go. Well done, and so glad to hear she is feeling better!!!

[Snakesitter]

Any more news?

[Sharlynn93]

She seems to be back to normal after round 2..no signs of the lump, no further aggression, etc...only change is, we cannot get her to take a rat no matter what we do...tried scenting, everything...but she pounds down mice no problem... :/

[Will0W783]

Congratulations! I'm so glad she recovered. :)

[formica]

She seems to be back to normal after round 2..no signs of the lump, no further aggression, etc...only change is, we cannot get her to take a rat no matter what we do...tried scenting, everything...but she pounds down mice no problem... :/

did she eat a rat just prior to getting sick? perhaps she has developed an aversion to them

well as long as she is eating it doent matter to much! glad she's doing well :D

[Sharlynn93]

Yes, she was fully on rats when she got ill...im fine w feeding mice...have others that will always be on mice as well...but she is so large I fear I will always be under feeding her...so much easier to find 1 rat that equals the 10 to 15% than to try and mix and match...but I love her dearly..I will just feed her a few mice on a weekly schedule...seems to be working thus far...she was on mice for quite some time after we got her and she still packed on the weight...im just glad she seems more herself...I took her out the other day to clean her enclosure, set her on the floor beside me...after a few minutes she climbed up me to my shoulders and just sat there waiting till I was done...then she went back to her house...she really seems to love the space...she sure does make the most of it...she is ALWAYS in a different spot every time I look...she hardly ever came out of her warm hide before... :)

[pdomensis]

This is all good news. Glad to hear she's doing so well.

[Snakesitter]

Glad to hear all is well. Interesting on the rats -- either she associates them with her illness, or something is still bugging her just a bit. At any rate, she'll be fine on mice. I've found though it takes four to six of them to equal one rat meal, so you have your work cut out for you!!! Please do keep us posted, and again glad all is well.