Reptiles & Emotions

[LiL Zap]

This is sort of controversial in the reptile community so everyone keep it friendly lol.

Do you think reptiles have emotions?

I believe that reptiles have simple emotions such as pleasure, fear, trust and curiosity. Will your snake eagerly wait for you to come home from work? No. I just can't agree with the idea that snakes are animals that run purely on instinct. They LEARN and grow to trust people. Why do you think a burmese python, one of the most largest and powerful snake species, can be gently handled by people? Why do you think Tank the turtle (you can find his thread in the turtle section) takes food gently from his owner's hand instead of chomping his fingers off? I could go on and on.

I think people need to give reptiles more credit for their intelligence. I just don't think they're as simple minded as people make them out to be.

What is your thoughts? I'm really interested to hear what you all have to say!

[CosmicOwl]

I think they do have some emotions, but humans are biased in our perspective by looking at the situation in mammalian terms.

[poomwah]

I don't think they have many of the emotions that we share. But I do accept that it is possible. They may very well feel the entire spectrum of human emotions but not have the means to physically express it.
I doubt that's the case, but I'm open to the possibility since I can't prove it one way or the other.

[Pareeeee]

Uh oh, one of these posts again.

[MDT]

Uh oh, one of these posts again.


That's exactly what I thought when I saw this :)

[poomwah]

That's exactly what I thought when I saw this :)

uh oh, I'm new to this forum. what did I get myself into?

[Mikoh4792]

uh oh, I'm new to this forum. what did I get myself into?

There have been countless numbers of threads on this exact topic, and it always turns into a heated pissing match about who's right.

Having said that, I would say it's more logical to take the position that although we don't know for sure, most reptiles(particularly snakes) probably do not have emotions(except for very basic ones like fear, comfort...etc). I facepalm every time I see someone who thinks their snakes love them and like to be handled.

[poomwah]

ahh gotcha.
I don't go as far as to facepalm when I hear it, I am very doubtful about it, but as you said, the logical position is that we don't know for sure.
I would really love it if my snakes loved me, but I really doubt the care one way or the other as long as they are warm , safe, and fed.

[kwhitlock]

That's exactly what I thought when I saw this :)

Same..lol

These never go well..

[poomwah]

this isn't going to turn into one of those kinda deals like where people get all pissed off and argue that dogs can't understand human language is it?
I've seen a lot of those

[formica]

Dopamine - reward based learning, AKA pleasure
Seratonin - strongly associated with eating well, AKA contentment/happyness
Adrenaline - fight or flight response, AKA fear


all are found in reptiles.

the only emotional connections that are different, are those between mates and young - the only reason that humans form close emotional ties with mates and young, is because our babies are utterly useless at looking after themselves


....we can turn that into some complex abstract idea if we want, and claim that humans are more emotional complex, but, all of that comes from our intelligence, not our emotional capacity

[poomwah]

Dopamine - reward based learning, AKA pleasure
Seratonin - strongly associated with eating well, AKA contentment/happyness
Adrenaline - fight or flight response, AKA fear


all are found in reptiles.

the only emotional connections that are different, are those between mates and young - the only reason that humans form close emotional ties with mates and young, is because our babies are utterly useless at looking after themselves


....we can turn that into some complex abstract idea if we want, and claim that humans are more emotional complex, but, all of that comes from our intelligence, not our emotional capacity

Now if we have posts like this to look forward to. this is going to be an excellent thread

Formica,
by this logic, would you you expect reptiles that are more protective of their young to be more capable of or likely to form an emotional bond?

[drumcrush]

I posted this a while ago, take a look if you want

Reptile Emotions - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences (http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions#.Uo5IYn-9KK1)

[kwhitlock]

this isn't going to turn into one of those kinda deals like where people get all pissed off and argue that dogs can't understand human language is it?
I've seen a lot of those

I dont think so this time, there was one of these posted a few weeks/month or two ago where it went on for a couple pages.

[formica]

Now if we have posts like this to look forward to. this is going to be an excellent thread

Formica,
by this logic, would you you expect reptiles that are more protective of their young to be more capable of or likely to form an emotional bond?

yes I would say so, for eg those which incubate their own eggs (eg carpet pythons), are far more protective of their eggs, than those which dont, and a few (for eg Crocs) go so far as protecting their young beyond hatching - an emotional bond must exist for this to happen, whether they can discribe that emotional bond in abstract human terms, is irrelevant imo, a crocs teeth says it all!

[MDT]

instinct ≠ emotion

opinion ≠ science

that is all.
:)

[formica]

instinct ≠ emotion

opinion ≠ science

that is all.
:)

instincts are triggered by emotions, of course they arn't the same thing, one precedes the other, an instinct to fight, comes after the emotional feeling of fear.



the knowledge that reptiles, and most other animals on the planet, have neurotransmitters which function in the same way whether in humans or monitor lizards, is science, not opinion.

[pdomensis]

I think someone needs to come up with a snake/human dictionary. I see so many posts or videos talking about how snakie just loves to cuddle, or wants to come out of the tank to be held. Let me start with a few common examples. Feel free to add or amend.

Curious=trying to get the hell out of there

Wants to cuddle=is either cold and likes your body heat, or is terrified and looking for a place to hide

Comes towards owner=goes to familiar scent/heat signature or is freaked out because he was put down in an open lawn and is going to the only cover available

Likes to explore=see Curious

Watches you from tank=has learned either food is coming or there is a likely chance for escape; or is defensive

[Mikoh4792]

Watches you from tank=has learned either food is coming or there is a likely chance for escape; or is defensive

Or maybe isn't even watching you lol.

[pdomensis]

Or maybe isn't even watching you lol.

too true Mikoh

[poomwah]

yes I would say so, for eg those which incubate their own eggs (eg carpet pythons), are far more protective of their eggs, than those which dont, and a few (for eg Crocs) go so far as protecting their young beyond hatching - an emotional bond must exist for this to happen, whether they can discribe that emotional bond in abstract human terms, is irrelevant imo, a crocs teeth says it all!

crocs in particular were what I was thinking about

[poomwah]

Or maybe isn't even watching you lol.

we spend a LOT of time trying to figure out exactly what the HELL George is looking at .

[pdomensis]

yes I would say so, for eg those which incubate their own eggs (eg carpet pythons), are far more protective of their eggs, than those which dont, and a few (for eg Crocs) go so far as protecting their young beyond hatching - an emotional bond must exist for this to happen, whether they can discribe that emotional bond in abstract human terms, is irrelevant imo, a crocs teeth says it all!

The instinct to protect one's young doesn't necessarily have anything to do with EMOTION. It's simply an evolutionary strategy to preserve and pass on DNA. The question is, do crocs think about it when they do it, and do they feel something, or do they just do it because it's pre-wired.

[formica]

The instinct to protect one's young doesn't necessarily have anything to do with EMOTION. It's simply an evolutionary strategy to preserve and pass on DNA. The question is, do crocs think about it when they do it, and do they feel something, or do they just do it because it's pre-wired.

Emotion is simply an evolutionary strategy to preserve and pass on DNA ;)

I dont agree that a croc needs to ''think'' about what they are doing, or even have an awareness that what they are experiencing is fear, that is confusing intelligence and emotion, which is where this discussion tends to go wrong

[pdomensis]

Action without awareness is instinct, isn't it?

[formica]

Action without awareness is instinct, isn't it?

not really, awareness is another topic, but either way, we have to know the order things happen, or the topic gets confused:


predator appears > prey notices > emotional response (fear) > instinctive action (fight or flight)

[Pareeeee]

I'v seen no evidence proving or disproving that they have emotions. It would be nice if an actual, in-depth study was done.

Snakes are difficult to interpret.

I'm 50-50 on this.

[Mikoh4792]

I'v seen no evidence proving or disproving that they have emotions. It would be nice if an actual, in-depth study was done.

Snakes are difficult to interpret.

I'm 50-50 on this.

I'm more like 99 - 1. I like to take to the side that is more probable, but never sure without hard facts.

[pdomensis]

So to me this boils down to different definitions of emotion. The first, and I think this is what the OP was considering, involves thoughts and feelings, the second relating to formica's posts involves a chemical response to a stimulus.

Maybe they're one and the same in the end.

[formica]

what further facts do you need? the Neurotransmitters Serotonin, Dopamine and Adrenaline are well documented throughout the entire animal kingdom, they peform the same functions across the board.

a snake does not need to be able to write a love song, in order to protect its eggs from predators.


I think the real issue here, is a misunderstanding of what emotions actually are - they are not a complex cognitive process which relies on intelligence, they are simply the base chemical processes which trigger behaviors, and in the case of humans, it also triggers abstract and complex thought patterns.


So to me this boils down to different definitions of emotion. The first, and I think this is what the OP was considering, involves thoughts and feelings, the second relating to formica's posts involves a chemical response to a stimulus.

Maybe they're one and the same in the end.


exactly, thats the problem, confusing emotion, intelligence and human thoughts/communication



further to that, I think that we as humans, tend to overemphasize how diffrent we really are - for eg, yes we have art and music, but then...so do many birds...even art in some species of bird, and it serves the same purpose, whether the artist wishes to acknowledge that purpose or hide it behind a complicated social analysis

[MDT]

emotion = "i love you"

instinct = "protecting eggs will ensure propagation of favorable genes"

Neurotransmitters involved? Yes. Emotion? No.

[formica]

emotion = "i love you"

instinct = "protecting eggs will ensure propagation of favorable genes"

Neurotransmitters involved? Yes. Emotion? No.

saying ''i love you'', is not an emotion, it is a response to an emotion

just as a snake protecting its eggs, is responding to an emotion, the action itself is not the emotion

[Mikoh4792]

what further facts do you need? the Neurotransmitters Serotonin, Dopamine and Adrenaline are well documented throughout the entire animal kingdom, they peform the same functions across the board.

a snake does not need to be able to write a love song, in order to protect its eggs from predators.


I think the real issue here, is a misunderstanding of what emotions actually are - they are not a complex cognitive process which relies on intelligence, they are simply the base chemical processes which trigger behaviors, and in the case of humans, it also triggers abstract and complex thought patterns.



exactly, thats the problem, confusing emotion, intelligence and human thoughts/communication



I don't think you understand what my position really is. I agree with you that reptiles feel emotions like fear, pleasure...etc.

My position is that reptiles probably do not "enjoy" being handled nor do they love their owners the same way humans love eachother.... because some people do think like this and treat their animals as such.

[MDT]

Yep Mikoh...I agree w you....gigantic face palm.

[robertjnovak59]

My female boa loves me! Every so often she gives me kisses. There are a few bloodstains in the carpet to prove it.

[Mikoh4792]

My female boa loves me! Every so often she gives me kisses. There are a few bloodstains in the carpet to prove it.

That would be toughlove.

[formica]

I don't think you understand what my position really is. I agree with you that reptiles feel emotions like fear, pleasure...etc.

My position is that reptiles probably do not "enjoy" being handled nor do they love their owners the same way humans love eachother.... because some people do think like this and treat their animals as such.

are we talking about human behavior, or the emotion that is ''love''? I think we need to separate the two quite carefully

i agree that human behavior is very different, i'd also agree that snakes have no use of the kind of bonds that humans form (as I referred to early, human babies need parents to survive), although I am not sure that we can say for sure, that the emotion of ''Love'', which causes all sorts of complex behaviors in humans, is strictly a human chemical process

[robertjnovak59]

The only emotion that I'd say I've seen in a snake might be fear. Run for life, do anything to get away fear.

[poomwah]

My daughter's corn snake loves her. You can tell by the way it responds to her. She picks it up and it poos on her. That's gotta be love :P

[Mikoh4792]

are we talking about human behavior, or the emotion that is ''love''? I think we need to separate the two quite carefully

i agree that human behavior is very different, i'd also agree that snakes have no use of the kind of bonds that humans form (as I referred to early, human babies need parents to survive), although I am not sure that we can say for sure, that the emotion of ''Love'', which causes all sorts of complex behaviors in humans, is strictly a human chemical process

All I am saying is, snakes probably do not enjoy being handled... some people think snakes enjoy this the way furry animals enjoy being cuddled. Snakes also probably do not feel love the way humans feel love for eachother. Some people think their snakes "love" them.

Note I use the word probably...because I feel that is the best position to take since I do not have evidence to show that snakes cannot feel these "emotions". If I said snakes definitely do not feel love or enjoy being handled, I feel that would be the equivalent of saying that unicorns definitely do not exist. Unicorns probably do not exist.... and that's my position. It's different from being 50/50 and undecided.

[poomwah]

All I am saying is, snakes probably do not enjoy being handled... some people think snakes enjoy this the way furry animals enjoy being cuddled. Snakes also probably do not feel love the way humans feel love for eachother. Some people think their snakes "love" them.

Note I use the word probably...because I feel that is the best position to take since I do not have evidence to show that snakes cannot feel these "emotions". If I said snakes definitely do not feel love or enjoy being handled, I feel that would be the equivalent of saying that unicorns definitely do not exist. Unicorns probably do not exist.... and that's my position. It's different from being 50/50 and undecided.

This is one of the most well put and open minded opinions I've read on any subject

[Mikoh4792]

This is one of the most well put and open minded opinions I've read on any subject

Why thank you, it comes naturally with reason and critical thought. Anyone can do it.

[pdomensis]

and here we go about unicorns...

[Mikoh4792]

and here we go about unicorns...

http://www.outsystems.com/CKEditorCommunity/Download.aspx?GUID=2013530ty2dr35x58xrekezvlxbgkkd eq5t8th0zu40c7elw3

[poomwah]

Why thank you, it comes naturally with reason and critical thought. Anyone can do it.

from some of the things I've seen on some threads, I thought the world might be bereft of reason , lol

[Sharlynn93]

http://www.outsystems.com/CKEditorCommunity/Download.aspx?GUID=2013530ty2dr35x58xrekezvlxbgkkd eq5t8th0zu40c7elw3

Love it! Unicorns ARE real!! Lmao!!

[pdomensis]

http://www.outsystems.com/CKEditorCommunity/Download.aspx?GUID=2013530ty2dr35x58xrekezvlxbgkkd eq5t8th0zu40c7elw3

ha ha, nice one!

[CosmicOwl]

All I am saying is, snakes probably do not enjoy being handled... some people think snakes enjoy this the way furry animals enjoy being cuddled. Snakes also probably do not feel love the way humans feel love for eachother. Some people think their snakes "love" them.

Note I use the word probably...because I feel that is the best position to take since I do not have evidence to show that snakes cannot feel these "emotions". If I said snakes definitely do not feel love or enjoy being handled, I feel that would be the equivalent of saying that unicorns definitely do not exist. Unicorns probably do not exist.... and that's my position. It's different from being 50/50 and undecided.

I don't think they enjoy being picked up and molested by a giant, but that isn't always what handling entails. I mentioned it before, but when I'm working on my adult corn snakes enclosure, he will often come to me and try to climb up my arms. It's easy to dismiss that as being coincidence, but think about it from the snake's perspective. He's big enough to easily climb out of the enclosure, yet still tries to climb up me. Why? If he was just trying to flee, wouldn't he go for an area that wasn't being disturbed by a potential predator? I think it is because he is adjusted to me and feels a certain amount of comfort and security from my presence that he doesn't feel from any other avenue of escape. Is that emotion, or has he just learned from experience that I will take him out of the enclosure?

[Mikoh4792]

I think it is because he is adjusted to me and feels a certain amount of comfort and security from my presence that he doesn't feel from any other avenue of escape. Is that emotion, or has he just learned from experience that I will take him out of the enclosure?

That's what I'm saying. I can't know for sure, but I am saying it's probably due to comfort, security, warmth, curiosity..

It could be that he "likes" you in the human sense of the word, but most likely not.

I don't consider snakes going out of their enclosures as escaping...I consider it to be just simply moving or exploring. Like you'd find a wild snake climbing a fence or going over a rock. I don't know why we attribute the act of going out of it's enclosure as escaping. Enclosures are small anyways, so if they are moving and there is an opening, is it escaping or simply just roaming? And when they do get out of their enclosures, aren't you one of the only things that they are used to?(scent, appearance..etc). I see it to be a natural thing that once they get out they want to go the nearest thing that they are comfortable with..which in that case would be the owner.

[poomwah]

I think that's a great example of a snake being comfortable and tolerating being handled.
I personally doubt the snake looks at your arm any differently than a warm branch on which to climb.

[CosmicOwl]

That's what I'm saying. I can't know for sure, but I am saying it's probably due to comfort, security, warmth, curiosity..

It could be that he "likes" you in the human sense of the word, but most likely not.

I don't consider snakes going out of their enclosures as escaping...I consider it to be just simply moving or exploring. Like you'd find a wild snake climbing a fence or going over a rock. I don't know why we attribute the act of going out of it's enclosure as escaping. Enclosures are small anyways, so if they are moving and there is an opening, is it escaping or simply just roaming? And when they do get out of their enclosures, aren't you one of the only things that they are used to?(scent, appearance..etc). I see it to be a natural thing that once they get out they want to go the nearest thing that they are comfortable with..which in that case would be the owner.


I agree. I think the biggest problem with this discussion is that we can't help but look at things from our mammalian perspective. We unintentionally view emotions like love and affection as being the ultimate expression of emotion, because they are very important part of human relationships.

[poomwah]

That's a really good point Owl, and perhaps, like you said, the biggest problem. I think the other problem is how there's no way for any of us to know for sure, that's the part that bothers me the most

[LiL Zap]

This is a 45 minute documentary about a man who cared for a young crocodile after he was shot by a poacher and now YEARS later, the man and the crocodile have a very strong bond. Please take the time to watch and tell me your thoughts!

Link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EboT9KiTrY)

[formica]

This is a 45 minute documentary about a man who cared for a young crocodile after he was shot by a poacher and now YEARS later, the man and the crocodile have a very strong bond. Please take the time to watch and tell me your thoughts!

Link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EboT9KiTrY)

interesting! will have a watch later.

beyond caring for their young, I was not aware of them forming any other kind of bond....but thats why this discussion is so interesting, it throws up many questions, and forces us to question what we think about humanity and its place ''at the top of the evolutionary table''

[drumcrush]

This is a 45 minute documentary about a man who cared for a young crocodile after he was shot by a poacher and now YEARS later, the man and the crocodile have a very strong bond. Please take the time to watch and tell me your thoughts!

Link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EboT9KiTrY)

I love watching documentaries, I will have to watch this when I get home:)

[Sharlynn93]

I watched this with total fascination! such a wonderful story! I will not disclose the spoiler...but this just makes the topic even more "controversial"...a must watch till the end, though...

[natsirtremraf]

When it comes to the human emotion we call "love". Couldn't you argue that this emotion has the same effects as a croc protecting its young? Propogating DNA, and the survival as a species?

IMO, Human "love" comes from our instincts as well. When we fall in love, its our act of pair bonding, breeding, and continued survival. The same goes for loving our kids, our instincts are to care for our kids because its in the interest of our species to survive. Much like the croc protecting their young.

So while we call it "love", both us and them are acting on that same instinctual feeling to care and protect. We as humans are just self aware and try to attach a reason and explanation to everything.

Same for the "liking" someone situation. Whats makes you like some one? Obviously, humans have more complex emotions that complicate this. However, the people that we "like" are most likely the people we trust, and feel comfortable being around and enjoy interecting with. Snakes aren't really social animals though, so the interaction isn't something they care about too much :P.

Just my thoughts.

[LiL Zap]

To everyone who watched the documentary I put a link to, thanks! I hope it changed some of your perceptions on reptiles. :)

[Herpophiliac972]

I personally do not believe that they have them in the sense that we have them, at the very least not the comprehension of them that we do. I think that they definitely can "feel" fear, but more complicated emotions I just can't say for sure. Happiness, etc., I doubt. It does really annoy me when people say that there is just no way it is possible, they aren't that intelligent, they can't be that intelligent, etc., etc. Humans are so self important. As a species it as if we feel that we are special because we can understand each other, and, for all we know, other animals are the same way. We refuse to believe animals can be as intelligent as we are, and that kind of thinking just annoys me. It is even clearly present in our cultures. Most religions make it seem as if the entire universe was made for humans. I believe that animals at the least can be very intelligent, and can most likely feel at least basic emotions.

[formica]

we can understand each other

I think that humans misunderstand one another, almost as often as they don't, its a wonder we are able to do anything productive at all imo

[shaunyboy]

imo snakes have instincts nothing more....

when did you last see your snake wagging it's tail to greet you ;):D


cheers shaun

[formica]

imo snakes have instincts nothing more....

when did you last see your snake wagging it's tail to greet you ;):D


cheers shaun

I've seen plenty of snakes rear up hoping to get some dinner....which is pretty much the same thing as a dog wagging its tail hoping for something to eat :p

[MDT]

I've seen plenty of snakes rear up hoping to get some dinner....which is pretty much the same thing as a dog wagging its tail hoping for something to eat :p


Are you kidding me?

[CK SandBoas]

imo snakes have instincts nothing more....

when did you last see your snake wagging it's tail to greet you ;):D


cheers shaun

Not to greet you, but my Kenyans will routinely wag their tails during breeding season to let their mates know they're interested :D

[formica]

Are you kidding me?

partly yes (as the tounge poke smiley indicated), however, do you think a dog would ''love'' its owner if it didn't get fed by them?

[Aaron_S]

partly yes (as the tounge poke smiley indicated), however, do you think a dog would ''love'' its owner if it didn't get fed by them?

Short answer...yes.

[formica]

Short answer...yes.

elaborating on that would lead to a more interesting discussion

[Aaron_S]

elaborating on that would lead to a more interesting discussion

Sure...

It has been found many many times that when a dog's owner has died in the home/whatever that the dog will not leave the side of the body. They do not consume the body either and their are cases where the dog has starved to death instead of eating the body.

This shows me that dogs will continue to love their owner even if they aren't fed.

Further, many cases of dogs being abused(starvation and other methods) and yet that same animal still wags their tail to greet that person because no matter what had happened.

To me that shows love far beyond just feeding them.

[formica]

Sure...

It has been found many many times that when a dog's owner has died in the home/whatever that the dog will not leave the side of the body. They do not consume the body either and their are cases where the dog has starved to death instead of eating the body.

This shows me that dogs will continue to love their owner even if they aren't fed.

Further, many cases of dogs being abused(starvation and other methods) and yet that same animal still wags their tail to greet that person because no matter what had happened.

To me that shows love far beyond just feeding them.

this is true, and I wouldnt dispute that a dog which has a bond with its owner, will continue to have that bond after the owner dies

that said, some dogs have been known to eat their owners once they have died. but thats probably exceptional, and not really my point

what about before the dog has a bond with the owner? how and why does that bond get formed? because the dog falls in love? or is it something far more basic...like, a food source? a source of protection? is companionship between a man and a dog really a selfless love affair? or is it actually something more practical.

I'm inclined to believe that it is practical, and the bond becomes stronger as the years go by, and then we dress it up with silly human concepts

[Mikoh4792]

Thing thing is, humans and dogs are social animals. Snakes are solitary. They do not form bonds like humans and dogs do.

Put a human or a dog on an island alone for 15 years...they'll go crazy. Put a snake on an island alone for 15 years...it'll be doing great. Probably prefers solitude.

[shaunyboy]

I've seen plenty of snakes rear up hoping to get some dinner....which is pretty much the same thing as a dog wagging its tail hoping for something to eat :p

if a snake was rearing up say at the scent of prey defrosting.....

its instinct...

looking/hunting for prey,it's what they've done for millions of years

the need to eat is instinct not emotion imo mate


cheers shaun ;)

[shaunyboy]

Not to greet you, but my Kenyans will routinely wag their tails during breeding season to let their mates know they're interested :D

tell me a male of any species that wouldn't do what it takes to get a female breeding pal :D

cheers shaun :yes:

[shaunyboy]

Dopamine - reward based learning, AKA pleasure
Seratonin - strongly associated with eating well, AKA contentment/happyness
Adrenaline - fight or flight response, AKA fear


all are found in reptiles.

the only emotional connections that are different, are those between mates and young - the only reason that humans form close emotional ties with mates and young, is because our babies are utterly useless at looking after themselves


....we can turn that into some complex abstract idea if we want, and claim that humans are more emotional complex, but, all of that comes from our intelligence, not our emotional capacity

a humans child falls into a raging river....

our intelligence would say...don't dive in to save your child as you will end up dead

our emotions is what makes us jump into said raging river,regardless of the fact we will most likely die

same applies to rushing into a burning building for a family member,its emotion that drives that decision,NOT intelligence...

intelligence would tell us to wait for the fire brigade

we are emotionally more complex imo mate...

to the point we would sacrafice our own lives for tha sake of our emotions...

we would gladly push our child out the path of a speeding car,taking the hit ourselves,knowing we will end up dead


cheers shaun

[formica]

if a snake was rearing up say at the scent of prey defrosting.....

its instinct...

looking/hunting for prey,it's what they've done for millions of years

the need to eat is instinct not emotion imo mate


cheers shaun ;)


not quite

the need to eat, causes mental (emotional) and physical discomfort, AKA hunger

seeing food, causes a chemical response (adrenaline - improves focus) which leads to a physical response and highly alert state, AKA excitment (emotional)

catching the food, causes a learning response (dopamine is released as part of the reward based learning system all animals have) AKA pleasure

eating the food, causes a physical and chemical reaction in the gut, which spreads thru the blood into the body (Seratonin is releasesed) AKA happyness


a humans child falls into a raging river....

our intelligence would say...don't dive in to save your child as you will end up dead

our emotions is what makes us jump into said raging river,regardless of the fact we will most likely die

same applies to rushing into a burning building for a family member,its emotion that drives that decision,NOT intelligence...

intelligence would tell us to wait for the fire brigade

we are emotionally more complex imo mate...

to the point we would sacrafice our own lives for tha sake of our emotions...

we would gladly push our child out the path of a speeding car,taking the hit ourselves,knowing we will end up dead


cheers shaun

I would agree of course that humans have a broader range of behavoural responses to emotions and more complex relationships - but we MUST separate behaviors, instincts and emotions, they are not the same thing

Yes humans have a broader range of emotional behaviours (instincts) compared to a Leopard Gecko, but more complex? more advanced?

no imo not at all, we are more complex in our behaviors/instinctive reactions, but the emotions are simply chemical reactions, its how we react to those chemicals which is diffrent

[shaunyboy]

i would agree of course that humans have a broader range of behavoural responses to emotions and more complex relationships - but we MUST separate behaviors, instincts and emotions, they are not the same thing

Yes humans have a broader range of emotional behaviours (instincts) compared to a Leopard Gecko, but more complex? more advanced?

no imo not at all, we are more complex in our behaviors/instinctive reactions, but the emotions are simply chemical reactions, its how we react to those chemicals which is diffrent

imo it's not instinct that causes us to give our own life to save our child,its love which is an emotion,no matter how the chemical response takes place

instinct,is when your sitting in a pub/bar and you know it's all about to kick off into a bar fight,so you either leave the pub/bar or get ready to fight,before you say it,it's fight or flight,which is caused by a surge of Noradrenaline

talking about human emotions and reptiles or even dogs is a mute point,as we are the most complex and dangerous creatures on the planet mate


cheers shaun

[MDT]

we are the most complex and dangerous creatures on the planet mate


cheers shaun

Q.E.D.

However, the more this topic is debated and I keep hearing things like "my snake likes how I smell and it cuddles w me", my belief that bipedal mammals with opposable thumbs and the ability of complex reasoning may be slipping a bit on the "smart" side....

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/c4bc3f6bfc5d9bda224e3d7b5c8ac485_zps9bbe1eee.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/c4bc3f6bfc5d9bda224e3d7b5c8ac485_zps9bbe1eee.jpg.h tml)

[shaunyboy]

Q.E.D.

However, the more this topic is debated and I keep hearing things like "my snake likes how I smell and it cuddles w me", my belief that bipedal mammals with opposable thumbs and the ability of complex reasoning may be slipping a bit on the "smart" side....

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/c4bc3f6bfc5d9bda224e3d7b5c8ac485_zps9bbe1eee.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/c4bc3f6bfc5d9bda224e3d7b5c8ac485_zps9bbe1eee.jpg.h tml)


could not agree more mate :D


another emotion is and will be the death of this planet...

GREED

government greed

cheers shaun

[Pareeeee]

this is true, and I wouldnt dispute that a dog which has a bond with its owner, will continue to have that bond after the owner dies

that said, some dogs have been known to eat their owners once they have died. but thats probably exceptional, and not really my point

what about before the dog has a bond with the owner? how and why does that bond get formed? because the dog falls in love? or is it something far more basic...like, a food source? a source of protection? is companionship between a man and a dog really a selfless love affair? or is it actually something more practical.

I'm inclined to believe that it is practical, and the bond becomes stronger as the years go by, and then we dress it up with silly human concepts

There is a different type of bond with dogs. Something much deeper than with other animals. They are extremely social animals (hence why most dog species run in packs). They have a much higher intelligence than most other animals, too. Watch a few dog documentaries and you'll see what I mean.

As for some dogs eating people, That is not an indicator of emotion or intelligence in my opinion. I would argue that some people (ie, cannibalistic tribes, etc.) eat other people too... :hmm:

They did a recent study on cats and found that they don't really care about their owners in the sense that a dog does, they see us as more of a provider of food, protection, etc. I wish I still had the link to it.

Anyway, snakes. Since they do have some of the 'emotion' hormones, I would be forced to agree that they have the ability for very primitive and limited emotion, but there is no behavioural evidence to back that up. Their behaviour and body language is so different, so alien compared to other animals that it makes it very difficult. Just because a snake wags its tail or snuggles up on your lap doesn't mean it likes you. I think people need to stop comparing them to other animals and treat their behaviour like you would an alien's - if my analogy makes sense.

[Mikoh4792]

There is a different type of bond with dogs. Something much deeper than with other animals. They are extremely social animals (hence why most dog species run in packs). They have a much higher intelligence than most other animals, too. Watch a few dog documentaries and you'll see what I mean.

As for some dogs eating people, That is not an indicator of emotion or intelligence in my opinion. I would argue that some people (ie, cannibalistic tribes, etc.) eat other people too... :hmm:

They did a recent study on cats and found that they don't really care about their owners in the sense that a dog does, they see us as more of a provider of food, protection, etc. I wish I still had the link to it.

Anyway, snakes. Since they do have some of the 'emotion' hormones, I would be forced to agree that they have the ability for very primitive and limited emotion, but there is no behavioural evidence to back that up. Their behaviour and body language is so different, so alien compared to other animals that it makes it very difficult. Just because a snake wags its tail or snuggles up on your lap doesn't mean it likes you. I think people need to stop comparing them to other animals and treat their behaviour like you would an alien's - if my analogy makes sense.

Most sensible post

[Rich Experience]

An alien who's brain also happens to run on the same emotion chemicals that ours does. Perhaps would not be too "alien".

[LiL Zap]

There is a different type of bond with dogs. Something much deeper than with other animals. They are extremely social animals (hence why most dog species run in packs). They have a much higher intelligence than most other animals, too. Watch a few dog documentaries and you'll see what I mean.

As for some dogs eating people, That is not an indicator of emotion or intelligence in my opinion. I would argue that some people (ie, cannibalistic tribes, etc.) eat other people too... :hmm:

They did a recent study on cats and found that they don't really care about their owners in the sense that a dog does, they see us as more of a provider of food, protection, etc. I wish I still had the link to it.

Anyway, snakes. Since they do have some of the 'emotion' hormones, I would be forced to agree that they have the ability for very primitive and limited emotion, but there is no behavioural evidence to back that up. Their behaviour and body language is so different, so alien compared to other animals that it makes it very difficult. Just because a snake wags its tail or snuggles up on your lap doesn't mean it likes you. I think people need to stop comparing them to other animals and treat their behaviour like you would an alien's - if my analogy makes sense.
Nice response. Very thorough and your analogy makes sense.

[xSerpentGoddess]

I don't know about emotion. I have snakes that bite the crap out of other people when they go into their tank, but not me. I also have snakes that slither out of their hides and up the glass to come out when you go up to the tank. I believe you get what you put in and that they can enjoy your company. I firmly believe there is such a thing as building trust in them. Often times when I hand a snake to a customer to see, they try to come right back to me. I am also more comfortable with them and they sense it. Snakes act different in the hands of someone who's unsure.