Anyone with yellow rat snake experience?

[poomwah]

I'm losing my mind here.
I know it might not be the best to compare a yellow rat and black rat. But they should be similar enough species to expect them to have similar growth rates, right?
So, here are two north american rat snakes. a yellow rat from august or september of 2012 and a white sided black rat (George) hatched july 2012.
George has been fed every wednesday, and has gradually moved up in prey sized, current size : rat pup
His current weight : 261 grams.
We just got a yellow rat, one or two months older than george that we are told is "normal" size for her age and that we had no reason to expect anything different. She is 49grams.
I cannot fathom how it can be said that the size is normal for the age. What do you guys think? Do you think she's "normal" size and we should be happy about the purchase, or do you think she's very small for her age and that we should have been told that?
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/smallsnake_zpsda758b63.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/smallsnake_zpsda758b63.jpg.html)

[IW17]

I would say the yellow is from this year's clutch. Not only is it way too small in my opinion, it's still showing it's Juvenile markings. Could you post another pic of just the yellow. This one is too fuzzy to see clearly.

[CosmicOwl]

I would say the yellow is from this year's clutch. Not only is it way too small in my opinion, it's still showing it's Juvenile markings. Could you post another pic of just the yellow. This one is too funny to see clearly.

I agree. I think that by a year and a half old, most North American rat snakes have started developing their adult pattern and coloration. I think they also tend be bottomless pits that will grow pretty much as much as you feed them.

[EL Ziggy]

I'm inclined to agree with the others. I think that's a 2013 hatchling.

[poomwah]

thanks guys, I questioned the breeder and he insist that it was hatched either august or september of 2012 and that its "normal" size for its age
There are also other on fauna saying its normal size and I should be happy with it, or its a LITTLE small. It baffles me how they can't see it as an issue.
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/ebccf7db-faf9-4876-b903-8861a26b9775_zps8f750e18.png (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/ebccf7db-faf9-4876-b903-8861a26b9775_zps8f750e18.png.html)
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/20140219_131233_zpsfhun0cwc.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/20140219_131233_zpsfhun0cwc.jpg.html)
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/20140219_131216_zpsprrfvehh.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/20140219_131216_zpsprrfvehh.jpg.html)
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/Mobile%20Uploads/20140219_120407_147238_zpsuhe2uqwl.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140219_120407_147238_zpsuhe2uqwl.jpg.html)

[Mikoh4792]

how is that normal size for a yearling? I've seen yearling yellows for sale on kingsnake and they were around 3 feet long. Do they grow particularly slower than other rat snakes?

And how reputable is this breeder? What is his name?

[poomwah]

sunshine serpents. LOTS of good reviews on fauna's BOI.
It seems i'm the only one on there that ever questioned him. Didn't exactly make me very popular with some of them either.
Grab a bag of popcorn and click the link in my signature if you get bored, you will see some interesting responses


sorry guys, I just noticed a typo. In the first post, I said the yellow is a month or two OLDER than George, she's a month or two YOUNGER

[IW17]

Idk seems off to me. I could be wrong, I'm no expert. But my experience with most American colubrids leads me to think somethings amiss. Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. It doesn't seem unhealthy, just small. As long as your happy and it's healthy, that's all that matters. If you don't mind, may I ask what you paid?

[CosmicOwl]

I don't know how big your hands are for reference, but here is a shot of my 2012 gray rat snake.

http://i.imgur.com/kCZiERA.jpg

And I'm feeding him 2 pinkies or a fuzzy every 6-7 days.

[CosmicOwl]

I don't know how big your hands are for reference, but here is a shot of my 2012 gray rat snake.

http://i.imgur.com/kCZiERA.jpg

And I'm feeding him 2 pinkies or a fuzzy every 6-7 days.

I'm sorry, I meant to say my 2013 gray rat snake. I guess that shows how easy it might be to make this kind of mistake...

[poomwah]

I know I've already said it Owl, but that snake is BEAUTIFUL!!!!
IW17, I paid 65 plus shipping for her, so 115 total.
The bad part is, I'm not happy at all with her. I don't do well with really small snakes. Too many issues with my hands and fingers. I can't safely handle a snake that smalled, that's why I paid extra to get a yearling instead of a hatchling.
I suppose I could just leave it alone and wait for it to grow. But I'm not sure how good that's going to be for the snake going that long without being handled, or how long its going to take for that matter. I will have had her two weeks on wednesday and she hasn't eaten yet. The breeder says she never missed a meal and ate a pinkie every 7 to 10 days. If I had ANY idea that she was that small, there's NO way I would have bought her. Not to mention, the picture they sent me of her made her look so bright an colorful. My wife fell in love with her instantly, got disappointed when we almost didnt get her because the breeder got some males in and decided he wanted us to buy one of those instead or to get her he decided that he wanted us to buy a male as well. I posted on fauna and he agreed to honor the original deal. My wife was like a little kid on christmas waiting for the fed ex driver. You should have seen the confused and concerned look on her face when she saw how small the box was. Then , I wish I could forget the look on her face when she saw the snake. She was beyond disappointed, almost heart broken.
The kids got home from school, ran in to see the new snake. "did fedex come, is she here yet?" I pointed to the tank and they asked where she was, I said in the tank, they both said, where, she's not in there, I lifted up the paper towel and their excitement was instantly gone. They disappointedly asked me why we didn't get the one I told them we were getting. It looked so much better in the pictures that we actually wondered if it was the same snake. The breeder assured us it was the right snake, the right hatch date, or date range since he couldn't be sure which month in the 4th quarter of 2012, and assured us that she is the right size.
So unfortunately, I'm not happy at all, I'm really pissed off, partly at the money I wasted, but mostly because the disappointment it caused my wife and kids.
I'm actually trying to find another home for her, I know I'm not going to get anything for her, a few bucks, but really, who is going to pay anything for her. It's not like yellow rats are insanely popular. Between my not being able to handle her and my family's disappointment, I decided to try to get something else that they will be excited about and that I can work with. We don't have room for another snake unfortunately.

[CosmicOwl]

I know I've already said it Owl, but that snake is BEAUTIFUL!!!!
IW17, I paid 65 plus shipping for her, so 115 total.
The bad part is, I'm not happy at all with her. I don't do well with really small snakes. Too many issues with my hands and fingers. I can't safely handle a snake that smalled, that's why I paid extra to get a yearling instead of a hatchling.
I suppose I could just leave it alone and wait for it to grow. But I'm not sure how good that's going to be for the snake going that long without being handled, or how long its going to take for that matter. I will have had her two weeks on wednesday and she hasn't eaten yet. The breeder says she never missed a meal and ate a pinkie every 7 to 10 days. If I had ANY idea that she was that small, there's NO way I would have bought her. Not to mention, the picture they sent me of her made her look so bright an colorful. My wife fell in love with her instantly, got disappointed when we almost didnt get her because the breeder got some males in and decided he wanted us to buy one of those instead or to get her he decided that he wanted us to buy a male as well. I posted on fauna and he agreed to honor the original deal. My wife was like a little kid on christmas waiting for the fed ex driver. You should have seen the confused and concerned look on her face when she saw how small the box was. Then , I wish I could forget the look on her face when she saw the snake. She was beyond disappointed, almost heart broken.
The kids got home from school, ran in to see the new snake. "did fedex come, is she here yet?" I pointed to the tank and they asked where she was, I said in the tank, they both said, where, she's not in there, I lifted up the paper towel and their excitement was instantly gone. They disappointedly asked me why we didn't get the one I told them we were getting. It looked so much better in the pictures that we actually wondered if it was the same snake. The breeder assured us it was the right snake, the right hatch date, or date range since he couldn't be sure which month in the 4th quarter of 2012, and assured us that she is the right size.
So unfortunately, I'm not happy at all, I'm really pissed off, partly at the money I wasted, but mostly because the disappointment it caused my wife and kids.
I'm actually trying to find another home for her, I know I'm not going to get anything for her, a few bucks, but really, who is going to pay anything for her. It's not like yellow rats are insanely popular. Between my not being able to handle her and my family's disappointment, I decided to try to get something else that they will be excited about and that I can work with. We don't have room for another snake unfortunately.


Thanks, I really am fond of this little guy.

It's a bummer to read all of that, particularly the bit about your hands. My hands are fine and it can still be troublesome to hold onto a squirmy little snake. That being said, I'm not sure how much evidence there is to suggest that handling has much of an affect on a snake's personality. From what other people have said, age and natural temperament seem to be bigger factors. You probably wouldn't suffer any consequences from waiting 6 months to start handling her frequently. She would still adjust to your presence and come to realize that you aren't a threat.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the coloration too much. Rat snakes go through pretty extensive changes over time, and I think the yellows are among the most drastic in that respect. From my perspective, she does seem to be developing some yellow around her face and neck. Either way, the choice is yours. I don't think it would hurt to grow her up and see how she turns out, but you also might not want to sink so many years into a snake you aren't happy with. All that really matter is that the snake gets taken care of and that you are happy. How that happens isn't important.

[IW17]

Feeding a juvi every 7-10 days is not enough in my opinion. I feed Adult Rats every 7. Juvenile rats I would feed every 4 days. That might be one reason it's growth is so far behind.

[poomwah]

Feeding a juvi every 7-10 days is not enough in my opinion. I feed Adult Rats every 7. Juvenile rats I would feed every 4 days. That might be one reason it's growth is so far behind.

that's what I thought too, but like I said, the breeder steadfastly insists that the snake is the size it should be.

I'm pretty that 4 to 5 days is what you would hear from most people who raise north american rat snakes.

[DMong]

Well, I'm sure the snake was only fed a "maintanance" diet thus far. It will grow very well if fed a decent sized rodent that's about 1/3rd larger than the widest diameter of the snake's mid-section about every 4-5 days for a good while. As long as you provide a small area on one end only that is in the mid-80s F so it can properly digest, and a cooler side in the mid-70s F to conserve its calories and body mass between feedings, it should really take off in growth. This is what they do in the wild. You want to see a very noticeable bulge from the meal without it being TOO large. If the meals are a bit small, feed it two at a time. With a decent feeding regimen it should grow very rapidly for you.


~Doug

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc140/DMong_bucket/Copy8ofIMG_0005.jpg

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc140/DMong_bucket/Copy3ofIMG_0007.jpg

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc140/DMong_bucket/IMG_0141.jpg

[CosmicOwl]

Well, I'm sure the snake was only fed a "maintanance" diet thus far. It will grow very well if fed a decent sized rodent that's about 1/3rd larger than the widest diameter of the snake's mid-section about every 4-5 days for a good while. As long as you provide a small area on one end only that is in the mid-80s F so it can properly digest, and a cooler side in the mid-70s F to conserve its calories and body mass between feedings, it should really take off in growth. This is what they do in the wild. You want to see a very noticeable bulge from the meal without it being TOO large. If the meals are a bit small, feed it two at a time. With a decent feeding regimen it should grow very rapidly for you.


~Doug

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc140/DMong_bucket/Copy8ofIMG_0005.jpg

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc140/DMong_bucket/Copy3ofIMG_0007.jpg

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc140/DMong_bucket/IMG_0141.jpg

Your Everglades rat snake is very purdy. I really want to get one of those neon orange, hypo everglades rats.

[poomwah]

beautiful snakes Doug, thanks for the advice.
I wish I could get mine to eat

[CosmicOwl]

beautiful snakes Doug, thanks for the advice.
I wish I could get mine to eat

Try scenting with an anole. It might work.

[poomwah]

thanks owl. I was hoping to avoid that if at all possible but I might not have a choice.
I've got a soft spot for anoles as I used to keep them as pets

[wareagleA5]

thanks owl. I was hoping to avoid that if at all possible but I might not have a choice.
I've got a soft spot for anoles as I used to keep them as pets
You don't have to harm the anole, just rub the pinkie on him.

[poomwah]

You don't have to harm the anole, just rub the pinkie on him.

I know I don't have to hurt it. I got a WC king snake switched to FT mice by rubbing. BUT, at that time I also had pet anoles.
I don't have set up for them now, and the only "local" place that has them won't let me rub one of their anoles with a pinky. Should have seen the look on their face when I asked, LOL.
So that leaves me having to buy an anole that I can't take care of :[

[CosmicOwl]

I know I don't have to hurt it. I got a WC king snake switched to FT mice by rubbing. BUT, at that time I also had pet anoles.
I don't have set up for them now, and the only "local" place that has them won't let me rub one of their anoles with a pinky. Should have seen the look on their face when I asked, LOL.
So that leaves me having to buy an anole that I can't take care of :[

Buy a frozen feeder anole?

[poomwah]

Buy a frozen feeder anole?

I can't find any place that carries them. I'll probably have to bite the bullet, buy one and euthenize it.

[CosmicOwl]

I can't find any place that carries them. I'll probably have to bite the bullet, buy one and euthenize it.

Yeah, maybe. You could maybe try a frog if you knew anybody who had one as a pet.

[EL Ziggy]

You can also try scenting with chicken broth or chicken feathers. As a more drastic measure you could try a live pinky.

[poomwah]

live pinkies definitely would be easier to find.
I wish it was warmer out, we live right next to a creek and in the summer there are frogs on the sidewalk every night.
Chicken broth, that would be even easier. I heard of someones snake, can't remember who or what kind of snake, that wouldn't eat unless the pinkie was scented with tuna.

[poomwah]

thanks again for all the advice guys

[poomwah]

She ate!!!!!

[EL Ziggy]

She ate!!!!!
GREAT news Poom!

[poomwah]

thanks Zig, funniest part is, even though she fed, I'm STILL getting crap about my set up, LOL

[sharthun]

Your Everglades rat snake is very purdy. I really want to get one of those neon orange, hypo everglades rats.

Wow those are beautiful!

[CosmicOwl]

Wow those are beautiful!

They're at the top of the list of snakes I have my eyes on.

[sharthun]

They're at the top of the list of snakes I have my eyes on.

I can definitely see why!

[poomwah]

indeed. perhaps I should have got one of those instead :P