How big should a 17 month old yellow rat snake be?

[poomwah]

I saw a lot of information on this site, and a few familiar names, so I figured I'd join.
I recently got a yellow rat snake, and I'm wondering how mad I should be at myself. I'm very disappointed with the snake I received, and I'm wondering if I should have expected more, or if I was unrealistic to expect what I did.
I had a choice between a 2012 or a 2013, obviously the 2012 was a lot more money. I chose her because I feel more comfortable handling slightly larger snakes. The snake I got, born either august or september 2012 (the breeder wasn't sure which), is very small. At least a lot smaller than what I expected.
She weighs 29 grams. This seems incredibly small for a 17 month yellow rat snake. Am I correct in thinking this? Or was I unrealistic in my expectations?

[Mikoh4792]

How long is she? my 2012 grey rat was 3 feet or so.

[poomwah]

19.3 inches and as big around as a pencil

[EL Ziggy]

Hi Poomwah, welcome to the forum. There's a lot of good information here. I'm not too familiar with rat snakes but 29g seems quite small for a 2012 colubrid.

[CosmicOwl]

That does seem small. However, I think if you feed her regularly she will catch up on whatever growing she hasn't done. Most North American rat snakes have great appetites and will grow like weeds if fed regularly.

[Sharlynn93]

my corns (a variety of rat snake from what i know) grew pretty much only in length the first year...virtually minimal weight gain...now they are totally blossoming...could be the same for actual rat snakes?

[poomwah]

thanks for all the info everyone.
she's 19.3 inches right now.
From what I'm finding on most forums, most people's are quite a bit bigger by that age.
I wish I had known she was going to be that small, I would have saved some money and got a 2013. I paid twice as much for the 2012 because I don't like handling extremely skinny snakes.

[poomwah]

That does seem small. However, I think if you feed her regularly she will catch up on whatever growing she hasn't done. Most North American rat snakes have great appetites and will grow like weeds if fed regularly.

Let's hope I can feed her regularly,hehe.
I left her alone for a week after getting here before trying to feed her. She refused her first meal. Let's hope that's a one time thing.

[Mikoh4792]

All snakes grow differently anyways. Maybe you just have a small snake.

[poomwah]

I guess so, very small, it's crazy, I have a white sided black rat that is only 2 months older.
Last time I weighed him was a month ago. So, at the time of his last weighing, he was only a month older than the yellow is now.
Yellow Rat - 17 months old 19.3 inches 29grams
White sided- 18 months old 39.5 inches 244 grams

[EL Ziggy]

I guess so, very small, it's crazy, I have a white sided black rat that is only 2 months older.
Last time I weighed him was a month ago. So, at the time of his last weighing, he was only a month older than the yellow is now.
Yellow Rat - 17 months old 19.3 inches 29grams
White sided- 18 months old 39.5 inches 244 grams
Is it possible you got the 2013 baby instead of the 2012?

[poomwah]

I was thinking that same thing. And you aren't the first one to think that was a possibility.
But the breeder assures me that it is a healthy sized 2012 (even though I have a LOT of people on many forums saying its very small for its age).
I did however post in a forum where a lot of people know the breeder, that's the only forum where I'm not being told she's smaller than I should have expected. One person on that forum PM'd me and said "WOw, that is TINY".
However, the people posting are telling me how great the guys' stock is, and how I should be happy with what I got, and that I'm turning out to be the type of customer that does nothing but complain.
Which baffles me, because the ONLY thing I've ever complained about on there is that I was expecting this snake to be a lot bigger.
I have even paid the breeder many compliments on that thread.

[Mikoh4792]

I'd say those people are idiots. If you find something to be a bit odd(a very small snake for a being a year old) you should be able to point that out and ask questions. Some people just want to be infallible.

Did you tell the breeder that a lot of people on many forums say it's small for it's age? 29 grams is pretty light.

[CosmicOwl]

I think you might have gotten a 2013 hatchling or an undersized snake from 2012. My 2013 gray rat snake is already approaching 19-20 inches long, so it doesn't make sense for a 2012 yellow rat snake to be the same length.

[poomwah]

I told the breeder I was really concerned about the snakes size.
He assured me that it is indeed a 2012. And said:
"You definitely received the right snake. Yellow rat do run a bit small than black rats both in length and girth, but aside from that our snakes our not powerfed. They do well for us on a once a week to every ten day schedule. We seem to grow them up at similar rates that I observe in wild rat snakes in my field work down here"
a BIT ???? lol

[CosmicOwl]

I told the breeder I was really concerned about the snakes size.
He assured me that it is indeed a 2012. And said:
"You definitely received the right snake. Yellow rat do run a bit small than black rats both in length and girth, but aside from that our snakes our not powerfed. They do well for us on a once a week to every ten day schedule. We seem to grow them up at similar rates that I observe in wild rat snakes in my field work down here"
a BIT ???? lol

I don't think that is true. Black rats can grow larger, but on average I think they are about the same size. At least I've run into plenty of 5-6 foot long yellow rats in the wild. Feeding a juvenile snake any less frequently than every 7 days does seem a bit skimpy. I doubt it will hurt the snake, but you could easily feed more without it being "power feeding".

[EL Ziggy]

It is what it is now Poomwah. As long as the snake is healthy I'm sure you can get it up to size with proper feedings. Best wishes and keep us posted.

[poomwah]

I agree Owl.
I'm trying not to be upset about this. But with the extra I paid to specifically get a larger snake, I feel like I got ripped off. I mean. Does this look like a 17 month old rat snake
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/20140219_131233_zpsfhun0cwc.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/20140219_131233_zpsfhun0cwc.jpg.html)
was I wrong to expect her to be a lot bigger?
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/Mobile%20Uploads/20140219_120407_107046_zpsuxxbwqsn.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140219_120407_107046_zpsuxxbwqsn.jpg.html)

now if I can just get the darn thing to eat :[

[CosmicOwl]

It's a bummer that you paid extra for a snake you thought would be bigger but I wouldn't worry if she is healthy. As long as you can get her feeding regularly, she'll do some growing.

[poomwah]

thanks CosmicOwl. It helps to hear someone say it.
As far as feeding, any suggestions? I left her alone for a week before offering her food, and she showed no interest in it. Tried dangling the pinkie with forceps, she watched it, tongue flicked it, but didn't take it. I left it in her feeding container and she climbed out of the container. I wound up putting a lid on the feeding container and keeping here in that overnight. The next morning, she was curled up in the lid of the container and still hadn't eaten.
Her temps are good, she has plenty of hiding places, lots of substrate to burrow in.

[sharthun]

Hey and Welcome! Nice looking snake, but I agree it looks small for a 2012. He should settle in and start feeding soon! Good luck and keep us posted!

[LiL Zap]

All snakes grow differently anyways. Maybe you just have a small snake.
This is what I was thinking. Do you have a picture of her?

EDIT: Nevermind, I totally missed the picture lol. She looks good to me!

[CosmicOwl]

Try feeding her in her enclosure.

[poomwah]

thanks sharthun and zap. I'll get more pics after she settle's in, I didn't take many because I didn't want to bother her. here's the pic from the original ad
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/Mobile%20Uploads/2011-05/1468041_zpslbcshcfv.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2011-05/1468041_zpslbcshcfv.jpg.html)
and here's a screen shot I took from her unboxing video
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/Mobile%20Uploads/20140219_120407_147238_zpsuhe2uqwl.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140219_120407_147238_zpsuhe2uqwl.jpg.html)
Owl, I do feed her inside her enclosure, but since she's on aspen, I put a small tub in there and put the food in that, that way I know she's not going to ingest any aspen. Then I put her in the tub with the food.
Think I should use something flatter... the lid to the tub perhaps, and put the food in there without letting her know its there and just wait and see if she finds it?

[CosmicOwl]

thanks sharthun and zap. I'll get more pics after she settle's in, I didn't take many because I didn't want to bother her. here's the pic from the original ad

and here's a screen shot I took from her unboxing video
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/Mobile%20Uploads/20140219_120407_147238_zpsuhe2uqwl.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140219_120407_147238_zpsuhe2uqwl.jpg.html)
Owl, I do feed her inside her enclosure, but since she's on aspen, I put a small tub in there and put the food in that, that way I know she's not going to ingest any aspen. Then I put her in the tub with the food.
Think I should use something flatter... the lid to the tub perhaps, and put the food in there without letting her know its there and just wait and see if she finds it?

That setup actually seems fine. I'm not an expert, but I'd probably just keep offering her food. I think in most cases the snake will get hungry and eventually eat. If she keeps giving you problems, you could buy an anole from a pet shot(or catch a wild one if they inhabit your area) and scent the mouse with it.

It's interesting that you mention this breeder, because I was actually looking into them. If I ever consider buying from them, I'll definitely ask for pictures before hand.

Also, I love her angry little face in the second picture.

[poomwah]

I can say first hand that the pictures they send don't look the same as the snake does in person. I also had requested length and weight but didn't get that info.

[poomwah]

I've been trying to contact the breeder, but I get back an email saying they are out of the office. been like that for a bit now. But I notice they are still posting pictures on their facebook page. So my daughter sent them a message on facebook, they promptly replied telling her what they had for sale.
So, giving them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they can access facebook while out of the office but SOMEHOW can't access email, I don't know how that could be but lets say its possible.
So my wife emailed them , and they responded with information about what they had for sale.
But I get a message saying they are out of the office :\

[poomwah]

I received an email (perhaps coincidence, but interesting that it wasn't until after I posted on a couple forums that other people were getting responses from him) from Daniel. He maintains that these snakes are NORMAL size for HIS colony and this is the way he's been breeding them for years.
So it comes down to, as we've established, his snakes are bred and kept substantially smaller than what most would be expected.
This obviously is his choice and right, and it obviously works for him. It is undeniable however, that something like that should have been openly discussed. If his snakes are noticably smaller than the average in the hobby, he should be telling that up front so the customer knows what to expect.
His "solution" was the typical, I can pay to ship the snake back and get a refund on my purchase price. So I'd be out 100 dollars and have nothing to show for it except the headaches and heartaches, and he'd have the animal to resell .
HOW on earth is that ethical? Had this important information been disclosed, I would NOT have bought the animal. Why am I the one to lose 100 dollars in this deal?

[EL Ziggy]

Sounds like you've got to make the most of the situation now Poom. Returning the animal for a refund doesn't seem like it would be worth it. Do you sell the snake or keep it? That is the question. Best wishes buddy!

[smy_749]

Hi , Welcome to the reptile industry. I bought a pair of geckos, my male died after two weeks. I paid 1,500$. To some, thats not so bad. Its part of the hobby unfortunately not every animal purchase will be as expected.

[Aaron_S]

Hi , Welcome to the reptile industry. I bought a pair of geckos, my male died after two weeks. I paid 1,500$. To some, thats not so bad. Its part of the hobby unfortunately not every animal purchase will be as expected.

That isn't the reptile industry. Please don't paint the entire industry in a bad way when you had a single bad experience.

I wouldn't be around for as long as I have if I had believed the entire industry is this way.

[smy_749]

That isn't the reptile industry. Please don't paint the entire industry in a bad way when you had a single bad experience.

I wouldn't be around for as long as I have if I had believed the entire industry is this way.

I didnt say the entire industry is this way. But if you stick around , eventually you will receive animals which are not what you hoped for , intentional or not. Dont be annoying and put words in my mouth so you can find something to argue about.

[Aaron_S]

I didnt say the entire industry is this way. But if you stick around , eventually you will receive animals which are not what you hoped for , intentional or not. Dont be annoying and put words in my mouth so you can find something to argue about.

I am not arguing. I simply pointed out what you did say.

Verbatim "Welcome to the reptile industry...."

You indicated the entire reptile industry.

Further to your point, if due diligence is done correctly then there never will be a time you recieve an animal that you had not hoped for.

I can only speak for me personally but I have yet, in almost 2 decades, ever recieved an animal that I didn't hope for.

I feel for the OP as it just seems there was a miscommunication and wasn't made aware of a potential size issue. If it's any consolation the animal looks to be healthy otherwise from the pictures.

[smy_749]

I am not arguing. I simply pointed out what you did say.

Verbatim "Welcome to the reptile industry...."

You indicated the entire reptile industry.

Further to your point, if due diligence is done correctly then there never will be a time you recieve an animal that you had not hoped for.

I can only speak for me personally but I have yet, in almost 2 decades, ever recieved an animal that I didn't hope for.

I feel for the OP as it just seems there was a miscommunication and wasn't made aware of a potential size issue. If it's any consolation the animal looks to be healthy otherwise from the pictures.

Welcome to the reptile industry indicates that everyone does this? Give me a break and get off your high horse. Never been screwed or received an unhealthy animal? bullshit

[Aaron_S]

Welcome to the reptile industry indicates that everyone does this? Give me a break and get off your high horse. Never been screwed or received an unhealthy animal? bullshit

You can call BS all you like but because you hold a personal problem (which until this day I never knew) don't misconstrue my experiences.

As I said, in my experiences this has happened. Maybe it's due in fact I have made 90% of my purchases in person. I do not know the cause. Maybe it's in part to luck. I just know what has happened to me and what my personal process is for selecting animals.

[KORBIN5895]

I really don't feel bad for the op. He never got his questions answered before purchasing and this is what can happen. Stop whining all over the forums or send the snake back.

[CosmicOwl]

I really don't feel bad for the op. He never got his questions answered before purchasing and this is what can happen. Stop whining all over the forums or send the snake back.

He said that the breeder gave him a day to make the decision, otherwise the animal was gonna get packed up for a show.

[Aaron_S]

He said that the breeder gave him a day to make the decision, otherwise the animal was gonna get packed up for a show.

This is part of why I have never had a bad experience with purchasing an animal.

I would never let this type of thing force me into purchasing an animal. There are more yellow rats out there and if I wasn't 100% comfortable then I would simply pass.

I still feel bad for the OP as all the information wasn't disclosed either. Lesson learned for the future.

[KORBIN5895]

He said that the breeder gave him a day to make the decision, otherwise the animal was gonna get packed up for a show.

Go read the boi thread again.

[poomwah]

thanks zig, I'm not sure what to do with the snake, nobody here likes it, they had their hearts set on what it looked like in the picture, nobody was expecting the big colorless patch on its snout that conveniently didn't show in the picture.
she's too small for me to handle, and too feisty for the family to handle. I guess I'll have to try to get rid of her. Probably won't get much out of her, but even if I sell her for 20 dollars its smaller loss than sending her back AND I save her from the stress of being shipped again. I can't however get rid of her yet, because she's not eating.
SMY, I don't know how anyone can say "that's not so bad" That's awful. I'm so sorry you went through that.

[Aaron_S]

thanks zig, I'm not sure what to do with the snake, nobody here likes it, they had their hearts set on what it looked like in the picture, nobody was expecting the big colorless patch on its snout that conveniently didn't show in the picture.
she's too small for me to handle, and too feisty for the family to handle. I guess I'll have to try to get rid of her. Probably won't get much out of her, but even if I sell her for 20 dollars its smaller loss than sending her back AND I save her from the stress of being shipped again. I can't however get rid of her yet, because she's not eating.
SMY, I don't know how anyone can say "that's not so bad" That's awful. I'm so sorry you went through that.

See if someone is willing to trade for her once she's eating. Try to make a good thing out of a bad situation.

[poomwah]

See if someone is willing to trade for her once she's eating. Try to make a good thing out of a bad situation.

That's what I'm thinking too. Probably the best viable solution. May be tricky, given my locale, not a lot of snake people around here it seems. I'm definitely not trading her to someone at a pet shop. I wouldn't do that to the snake, LOL

[Terranaut]

My take on this.....
Wait, feed, enjoy.
Keep it. Beautiful little snake. Feed it and wait for it to grow. A year from now it will be much bigger. IMHO getting rid of it because it's small is sort of ....wrong. When your the reason it has grown to whatever size it becomes, you will be proud. Seriously.
I would keep it.

[poomwah]

Thanks Terra,
I know it would be wrong to get rid of a snake just because of its size if it was just an appearance issue. In my case, its that I can't handle the snake until it gets bigger. I was worried that would be unfair to the snake , going that long unhandled. That's why I thought it might be better for the snake to find it a new home.
It seems that might not be an issue though, that she should be ok left alone other than feeding/cleaning/water changes.
Now, the tricky part, the feeding, I've had her almost two weeks, she hasn't eaten yet.
I gave her a week to settle in, offered her food, she refused it. Waited another 5 days, same thing :\

[poomwah]

Go read the boi thread again.

what do you hope they will discover by reading it again. please elaborate.

[poomwah]

Aaron,
I don't think that saying "welcome to the reptile industry" is a dangerous statement. I don't think it will hurt the industry. Look at it this way, anyone with a brain can see it was meant not as an insult to the business in general , just that if you participate in this hobby, you will eventually get burned. Anyone that doesn't have enough sense to see that's how its meant, well, is that really someone you are going to want to deal with as a customer, LOL.
I also believe that you never got burned. Due diligence and patience, being extremely careful who you buy from, etc, etc. These things would all greatly reduce , if not eliminate the risk of disappointment.

[poomwah]

I really don't feel bad for the op. He never got his questions answered before purchasing and this is what can happen. Stop whining all over the forums or send the snake back.

only an idiot would send the snake back and be out 100 dollars with nothing to show for it. Right now I bought a snake that was dishonestly represented and I'm out 115 dollars but I still have the snake.
How on earth is sending the snake back for a 100 dollar loss (50 shipping here, 50 shipping back) a solution?

and I'm not whining on the forums, I'm informing people of what happened, so they know to be more careful.

[KORBIN5895]

only an idiot would send the snake back and be out 100 dollars with nothing to show for it. Right now I bought a snake that was dishonestly represented and I'm out 115 dollars but I still have the snake.
How on earth is sending the snake back for a 100 dollar loss (50 shipping here, 50 shipping back) a solution?

and I'm not whining on the forums, I'm informing people of what happened, so they know to be more careful.

Only an idiot will jump on a snake without getting all of the pertinent information.

Secondly this isn't the boi and you already have a thread there so why are you still complaining about it here? I understand that you feel like you got a raw deal but that is because you sent money before you got all of your facts. If I want to buy a breedable female then I make sure I ask what the weight is, a rough length, age and when last she bred. If she doesn't meet my criteria or the plan I have then I move on. If I was lied to then I would act like you are. I personally think the seller has every right to start posting threads about you all over the Internet because of how immature and idiotic you are acting. You bought the snake you fell in love with without making sure your questions were answered.

[poomwah]

I told you why, because that way more people will be informed. I'm posting about here, because other than you, people on here care. On there theres' a lot of high school clique type attitude. This thread is more civilized than that.
I'm totally cool with the seller posting whatever he wants to about me. Any breeders that do not want to deal with me as a result of this says a lot about the type of breeder they are. I've already had breeders contact me about this, some posting the size of their animals, one even suspecting from the size and feeding issues that its probably wild caught.
You are right though, he didn't lie about the size, he left that out and instead of answering , gave us a deadline on the purchase. He didn't lie about the size but he used a picture that total misrepresented the animal. A dishonest practice at least, even if he didn't outwardly lie.

[KORBIN5895]

I told you why, because that way more people will be informed. I'may posting about here, because other than you, people on here care. On there theres' a lot of high school clique type attitude. This thread is more civilized than that.
I'm totally cool with the seller posting whatever he wants to about me. Any breeders that do not want to deal with me as a result of this says a lot about the type of breeder they are. I've already had breeders contact me about this, some posting the size of their animals, one even suspecting from the size and feeding issues that its probably wild caught.
You are right though, he didn't lie about the size, he left that out and instead of answering , gave us a deadline on the purchase. He didn't lie about the size but he used a picture that total misrepresented the animal. A dishonest practice at least, even if he didn't outwardly lie.

Again this is not the boi. You are also right about me not caring about your mistake nor do I care what other mysterious breeders say. You actually had a couple of weeks to get the deal done and apparently you guys kept in contact. I would also put a deadline on someonewho so blatantly looked like a tire kicker.

The other issue I have is you haven't bothered posting any proof of what was said. You expect us to take your word for it but I personally don't take anyone's word until I'veseen the measu re of the person speaking. Unfortunately you so far look like a person with buyers remorse that failed to make sure that he understood what he was purchasing.

Also the only reason you like this thread better than the boi one is because no one here is questioning you or asking that you actually clarify. Don't think I didn't notice your little personal attack about me not caring about the snake. I actually am worried about the snake but iI'm more worried about it being in your care.

These are my thoughts and opinions about you and have no bearing on my thoughtsand opi nions of the seller.

[poomwah]

Firstly Korbin,
I sincerely apologize,there was no personal attack against you. I merely stated that you didn't care and others did. I was referring to the situation, not the snake. I'm sorry that you thought I was attacking you and thinking I said you didn't care about the snake, I have no reason to think that you wouldn't care about the animal.
That being said, the reason I like it here is because there is no mob mentality, and people tend to read and respond to entire posts where over there, as is clear to anyone who is willing to see it. There is a plethora of twisting facts and picking out certain details to make a point and completely ignoring pertinent details.
I expect to be questioned, and I welcome and encourage it. What would you like to see proof of ?
Blatantly look like a tire kicker? I ask for information and instead of getting it, I am told that I have to purchase right then.
The truth of the matter is, I messed up, it is my fault that I failed to get all the important info before making the purchase. I ran out of time to wait for the information I requested, and I trusted the good reviews I had read. THAT is my fault. I made that decision, I admit that.
But you cannot deny that the dealer used a deceptive picture and that his colony of snakes are so much smaller than is normal in the hobby that he SHOULD have said something.

[poomwah]

Korbin: I actually am worried about the snake but iI'm more worried about it being in your care.


Could someone please tell me what on EARTH have I done that makes ANYONE concerned about a snake being in my care???
Regardless of whether someone likes me or not, or whether or not they agree about the deal or how I handled it. How does my care come into question?

[KORBIN5895]

Korbin: I actually am worried about the snake but iI'm more worried about it being in your care.


Could someone please tell me what on EARTH have I done that makes ANYONE concerned about a snake being in my care???
Regardless of whether someone likes me or not, or whether or not they agree about the deal or how I handled it. How does my care come into question?

I actually came up with that impression without reading past page 11 on the boi because that was where it had stopped yesterday. You seem very inexperienced, you are giving off the impression that you are mauling the poor thing and your behaviour in the boi thread seems petty and immature. You have played every card in the refund demand arsenal.

[poomwah]

Please explain how I am mauling the poor thing? This I would love to hear. My snakes are healthy and thriving. Please enlighten me, or "school me" as the "experts" on BOI are saying and tell me what I'm doing wrong with my snakes, Instead of just insulting me, try to help and tell me what I should be doing differently in the care of my snakes.

[Terranaut]

Again my thoughts.....
welcome to the reptile industry in my mind does paint a poor picture of our hobby. See this isn't an industry. ....these are animals and as much as people use terms like "produced" ,"collection" or "industry" people will attempt to disassociate the living creatures out of the moneyto be made at their expense. At one time dogs were an industry too. Puppy mills with no regulations showed how horrible people can be. I am hoping the industry goes back to being a hobby but don't see it.
I also doubt the breeder purposely misrepresented the snake you bought. You do sound inexperienced from your posts (not a bad thing) and I don't think you asked the right questions. The two guys your arguing with in this thread are just trying to "keep it real" here and not bash a breeder who may have not done anything wrong. I too would put a time limit on interactions with a customer. The snake is nice. Looks healthy and all seems good. Can we stop this now and get away from the industry and back to the hobby?

[poomwah]

excellent point, industry does have an unpleasant connotation. When you put it that way, I do much prefer the term hobby.

[Sharlynn93]

can I just say, poomwah, that I have 2 corns (similar to rats, same family...) and 1 of mine is 6 months older than the other...for the 1st year of their lives, they grew at VERY different rates...my 6 month old weighed more than the yearling and they were exactly the same length...they ate the same things, they never refused meals, etc...every snake grows differently...and most of their first year was all length growth, their weights barely budged, then all of a sudden (at the same time, despite the age difference) the length growth slowed to a crawl and they are packing on the weight...I think you just need patience...if you really despise the poor snake at this point (and it is impossible to tell what they will look like full grown at this point) then let someone else take her who will appreciate her beauty...she may be on the smaller side of the spectrum, but she is healthy and beautiful....

[poomwah]

can I just say, poomwah, that I have 2 corns (similar to rats, same family...) and 1 of mine is 6 months older than the other...for the 1st year of their lives, they grew at VERY different rates...my 6 month old weighed more than the yearling and they were exactly the same length...they ate the same things, they never refused meals, etc...every snake grows differently...and most of their first year was all length growth, their weights barely budged, then all of a sudden (at the same time, despite the age difference) the length growth slowed to a crawl and they are packing on the weight...I think you just need patience...if you really despise the poor snake at this point (and it is impossible to tell what they will look like full grown at this point) then let someone else take her who will appreciate her beauty...she may be on the smaller side of the spectrum, but she is healthy and beautiful....

I understand that they all grow at different rates. The snake is uncharacteristically small and so far won't eat. that can't be a good sign.
The whole point is being missed , I specifically bought an older snake so that I could have a larger snake so that I could handle it. I can't safely handle a snake this small. that's why I didn't buy a hatchling.

[Terranaut]

Why can you not handle a snake that small?

[EL Ziggy]

Poom- I can understand your disappointment in receiving a snake that was smaller than expected and if the breeder omitted important info. There's no turning back on that now so let's chalk it up as a lesson learned and be forward thinking. No need to debate the could haves, should haves, and what if's. The life and health of the snake should be a key focus right now. The most important thing at the present moment is to work on getting the snake to eat regularly. Once you get that in order you'll have more options. You can either keep the snake, sell it and recoup a portion of your investment, or make someone else's day by giving it to a good home. In a worst case scenario you're out of $200. Not chump change but not the end of the world :). Best wishes comrade.

[poomwah]

Why can you not handle a snake that small?

I don't have the feeling or the coordination anymore. I've broken almost every finger at least once, sprained every finger at least once, broke several bones in my right hand, and I've got arthritis. My family doctor thinks I have carpal tunnel as well, but I haven't seen the specialist about that yet.
It makes it EXTREMELY difficult to pick up small things. You should see me trying to pick up a pencil off a hardwood floor. It's like trying to pick up a piece of spaghetti with an oven mitt, LOL. With larger snakes, its not so much a problem, but with something the size of this snake, I'm afraid I'm going to crush it trying to pick it up.
That's why the size discrepancy is such a big issue. That's why I paid more for a yearling than I did for yearling that what a hatchling would have cost.
That was the whole point, an average size yearling would have been something I could handle and work with now. It will take as long to ge this girl to handling size as it would to get a hatchling to handling size. If I was going to have to wait, what was the point of spending the extra money for something older.

[Sharlynn93]

if you get her feeding regularly, up the size accordingly, etc, she will get bigger quite fast at that age...no need to worry about them "needing" handled to keep them docile...and if you want to handle her, put your hand in daily and let her get used to you...eventually she will crawl into your hand...all mine do...I have bad issues with my hands as well...chronic severe tendonitis, arthritis, etc...I have days I can barely wash my own hair...but I still manage...they will not get aggressive from not handling, as long as they acclimate to your presence they are fine...

[poomwah]

that is good news that the snake should be ok without the handling. But what seems to be ignored is that I shouldn't have to wait.
If the snake was what it should have been, I wouldn't have to.

[Sharlynn93]

but what we are getting at, is all snakes grow at a different rate...she may just be on the lower end...as for her beauty, she will definitely change as she matures...all of my pictures of mine look a lot better than they do in normal room lighting...but I still think they are gorgeous...I think you will be very pleased with her if you decide to keep her...just don't hold your feelings of "animosity" towards her...she deserves the best, just like any other snake...mine get prettier and prettier with every shed...its a wonderful process to watch! :)

[Sharlynn93]

i think you are really hung up on the size issue...yes, she is relatively small...but not abnormally small...give her time...i bet you will be very surprised at her growth once she starts eating and moves up in prey sizes....

[poomwah]

sharlynn, one thing I can totally guarantee you, no matter how disgusted I am about this whole situation, I will NEVER allow the snake to suffer as a result.
I totally understand what you are getting at, that all snakes grow at a different rate. I agree. The issue is about her possibly being on the lower end. That is not the case. The breeder only fed her every 7 to 10 days, and never raised her prey size . The reason she's so small is because he intentionally raised her to be small. He even specifically told me the other day that she is normal size for his colony.
That's the point I'm trying to make, that she's not on the low end or that she's a slow grower or anything of that nature, that the breeder intentionally raised her to be the size she is now.
I'm sure she will get prettier, most snakes do. I can tell you that the white nose is always going to drive me nuts though, I hate the way some yellows have that, I was specifically looking for one that didn't.
So, I can say I'll never be totally happy with her, but while she is with me she will get the best care I can possibly give her, just like all our others, and when I do find her another home , I will be EXTREMELY particular about where she goes.

[poomwah]

Poom- I can understand your disappointment in receiving a snake that was smaller than expected and if the breeder omitted important info. There's no turning back on that now so let's chalk it up as a lesson learned and be forward thinking. No need to debate the could haves, should haves, and what if's. The life and health of the snake should be a key focus right now. The most important thing at the present moment is to work on getting the snake to eat regularly. Once you get that in order you'll have more options. You can either keep the snake, sell it and recoup a portion of your investment, or make someone else's day by giving it to a good home. In a worst case scenario you're out of $200. Not chump change but not the end of the world :). Best wishes comrade.
Thanks Zig, great advice. And I totally agree that the snakes health should be my main focus and it is, but I can't help that this is just driving me nuts. Every time I read a post out loud about someone saying that the snake is not unusually small, I hear at least one person in my family yelling.
i am hung up on the size issue because she IS abnormally small here. 29 grams at 17 months? I just talked with a breeder who has one the same age that has been brumating for 4 months that weighs 79 grams.
So, please, lets look at this logically, a snake the same age that hasn't eaten for 4 months is 50 grams heavier.
We are not talking about relatively small, we are talking 2 and a half times smaller than the example I mentioned, and that snake was on the lower end.
I really am trying Zig, I'm trying to not think about the could haves and would haves, but my whole family is sitting here trying to figure out how anyone could say she's not abnormally small. I've got rat snake owners asking if I am sure the snake isn't 7 months or 17 weeks because its so small. I've got breeders telling me the snake is VERY small, one even saying that with its size and weight it sounds like its wild caught.
But I still get all these people saying the size is not an issue or that its not THAT small.
Early in this thread Mikoh pointed out having a 2012 that was 3 feet or so long, my 2012 is 19.3 inches. My eastern rat is only a month or 2 older than the yellow, not enough difference in age to make much difference in size. George has been fed once a week (which most will admit is conservative), and at last measuring he was 39.5 inches and 261 grams.
I'm sorry for being hung up on size , but I'm just trying to understand how anyone can say that's not abnormally small
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/smallsnake_zpsda758b63.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/smallsnake_zpsda758b63.jpg.html)

[Will0W783]

I'm not arguing or debating your concerns, poomwah, but the picture you have posted shows the overlaid tub the small ratsnake is in as being smaller than the other tub. The edges of the bottoms don't line up.

Were both snakes photographed in the same tub? If not, it would substantiate your claims more to have each snake photographed separately in the same tub. Post the two pictures side-by-side. We can then see how much room each animal takes up in the tub. The way you posted it looks off.

[EL Ziggy]

Poom- I guess my point is it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says about the size of the snake. You can't always change other peoples minds or opinions, and they're entitled to those opinions just like you're entitled to yours. The bottom line is the snake is in your possession now and the only way the it's is going to get larger at this point is by eating. All the rest is water under the bridge. We can't change the past so onward we go my friend.

[poomwah]

I can understand the confusion Willow. It's the same tub, when I took the pic of the yellow, I had the camera closer, so not all of the tub was in the pic. When I took the pic of george I had to move the camera back. The way I made it in scale was by using the frosted circles on the floor of the tub. I made the pictures so the circles were the same distance apart and the same size.
I can see how it looks off though.
How about this one
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/poomwah/2014030595120356_zpsu43g65sb.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/poomwah/media/2014030595120356_zpsu43g65sb.jpg.html)

[poomwah]

Poom- I guess my point is it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says about the size of the snake. You can't always change other peoples minds or opinions, and they're entitled to those opinions just like you're entitled to yours. The bottom line is the snake is in your possession now and the only way the it's is going to get larger at this point is by eating. All the rest is water under the bridge. We can't change the past so onward we go my friend.

I'm sorry Zig, I know the point you are making. I'm sorry it took me so long to listen. You've been the voice of reason in this thread for quite a while now.
I'm trying brother, I really am.

[EL Ziggy]

She's not very big but she's a really pretty snake Poom. If I had the room and you lived closer I'd take her off your hands :). My girlfriend just gave me $500 to go shopping with one condition, I can't bring home any new animals. Sheesh!

[sharthun]

She's not very big but she's a really pretty snake Poom. If I had the room and you lived closer I'd take her off your hands :). My girlfriend just gave me $500 to go shopping with one condition, I can't bring home any new animals. Sheesh!

$500 will cover the cost of 2 new T10's! hehe:D

[EL Ziggy]

$500 will cover the cost of 2 new T10's! hehe:D
Don't think I haven't thought about that. She wants me to buy a new suit or more clothes. I could use some new threads.

[poomwah]

new suit and ONE T10?

[sharthun]

new suit and ONE T10?


Now that sounds more logical! hehe:)

[Will0W783]

That picture shows the size differences a lot better poomwah. She is a pretty snake, but it's really subjective whether you are happy or not. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience; I hope that the snake thrives now with more frequent meals and care.

[Terranaut]

Also it seems your handling the small snake just fine. Again IMHO....keep and enjoy it. The snake will grow.

[poomwah]

Also it seems your handling the small snake just fine. Again IMHO....keep and enjoy it. The snake will grow.

It was a chore, lol, It's not that I CAN'T do it, its that I'm EXTREMELY uncomfortable doing it. I got lucky today, she was in a ball which made her easier to pick up, and she was content to just wrap loosely around my hand and stay there.
Think I can talk her into doing that all the time? hehe


In regards to Zig's shopping, I looked into those t10s when you had mentioned them to me earlier. Wow, those are nice.
Out of my budget but nice. I'll have to stick with my 55's for a while. I can't complain about them though, already had one, found THREE of them on craigslist for 45 bucks! couldn't pass that up

[sharthun]

It was a chore, lol, It's not that I CAN'T do it, its that I'm EXTREMELY uncomfortable doing it. I got lucky today, she was in a ball which made her easier to pick up, and she was content to just wrap loosely around my hand and stay there.
Think I can talk her into doing that all the time? hehe


In regards to Zig's shopping, I looked into those t10s when you had mentioned them to me earlier. Wow, those are nice.
Out of my budget but nice. I'll have to stick with my 55's for a while. I can't complain about them though, already had one, found THREE of them on craigslist for 45 bucks! couldn't pass that up

Yeah plenty of deals on glass aquariums for sure. I love the t10's! Well worth the money IMO. Easy to clean and heat, especially with RHP's! I wish I had 4! I have my corn in a 40g long and my prairie king in an exo terra 36x18x12 glass terrarium. My wife would kill me if I ordered 2 more!:p

[EL Ziggy]

I'm laying low on the hobby purchases right now. I'm gonna make a big purchase of new enclosures and quite possibly a new snake after we get moved into the new house this fall. It's all in the timing :)

[sharthun]

I'm laying low on the hobby purchases right now. I'm gonna make a big purchase of new enclosures and quite possibly a new snake after we get moved into the new house this fall. It's all in the timing :)

I've heard about timing! May have to give that a try!:p