Breeding Beardies

[Mr.Saturn]

I had my 2 Beardies sexed and they are both at least 3 years so they are mature enough to breed. I placed the male in with the female and for the first week he was turning his beard black and bobbing his head to get her attention and everything like they normally do. They've been in the same tank for 2-3 weeks now and he is no longer bobbing his head. They just lay around with each other and on each other. I would assume she is gravid seeing as how the male is no longer displaying himself and she is eating a lot of vegetables which she never cared for. Anything I could do to see if she is gravid and should I remove the male from her terrarium?

[xSerpentGoddess]

There's no reason to remove him. He typically wont harm her or the eggs. They are extremely communal and will be happier together. Whoever thinks beardies need to be kept alone is crazy. They live in large groups in the wild. We often see that when their raised alone they stop eating between 1 and 2 years of age. They only start eating again when they have another dragon with them. It is possible to raise them alone and have them live happily but they are programmed for communal living.

Also if the mating did take, you'll get 3 clutches regardless of whether or not they're tanked together. They store the genetic material. So there is no need to cycle.

When she gets close, you shold be able to feel the eggs. If you gently feel her stomach it should feel almost like there are marbles in her. She will stop eating about 3 days before she lays and start digging a lot. Give her the lay box as soon as she goes off food. She may want to lay sooner.

Sometimes the first clutch is always viable so don't get discouraged :)

Hope that helps!

[Tsubaki]

We often see that when their raised alone they stop eating between 1 and 2 years of age. They only start eating again when they have another dragon with them.


Having working in pet-stores, having a reptile vet as a friend, and reading on tons of forums.. This is still the very first time ever hearing, or reading about this. Never seen a bearded dragon go off food because he/she is alone, i have seen them go off food at that age because people don't know how to properly switch from 80/20 meat/greens.... to 20/80 meat/greens. Always got it fixed without adding another dragon. I highly doubt this theory.

[Pirarucu]

I have never heard that they are communal in the wild either. If anything, they are territorial... What evidence do you have that they are highly social?

[Valvaren]

I would really like to see where you pulled the communal part from, cause I doubt its a place where the sun shines, also have to agree with Tsubaki, i've seen dragons go off feed at that age from still being stuck on an 80/20 diet.

[xSerpentGoddess]

I do work in a pet store and we see it all the time. My boss has 28 years experience. We hatch 750+ dragons per year. I do not keep personally but we have a tank with 6 happy adults, and we incubate eggs for people. We have customers with anywhere from 2-9 dragons living together happily. 50% of customer probably have dragons. I only see problems with keeping two males together, and that's only sometimes. If you have 2 housed together, and one dies. The other one almost always stops eating until you get another. We find that usually adults do eat much less crickets as adults, some still prefer crickets. I really dont care what most people say/do/think. This is what my personal experience has taught me time and time again. I have even seen babies stop eating. They leave the store solo, and stop eating entirely. The people bring them back and as soon as they're back in their group they begin eating again. A second dragon is usually taken home at this point and everyone eats happily. It's much more uncommon but it happens. I SEE THIS ALL THE TIME.

Sometimes a dragon can live alone happily. I'm not saying this is never possible.

I see a ton of info on care sheets and breeder sheets for different animals with bad care. I have people come in with half dead animals because chain stores gave them them terrible instructions. Even most vets that claim to be familiar with reptiles charge you as much as they can and do very little that works. People come to us after the vet's treatment didn't work hoping for information, and we fix what the vet couldn't with easy at home remedies. Obviously some things must be treated. A lot of things can be done without as long as antibiotics aren't needed.

[Tsubaki]

Not saying you guys do a bad job, or questioning your experience. I just don't believe the myth that dragons will stop eating just because they are on their own.

We have an expression here that seems fitting, 'zien eten is doen eten' or roughly translated. Seeing eating, causes eating. Dragons will go off feed if they are not properly switched from mostly meat to mostly greens, maybe adding another dragon and seeing them eat causes an instinctive reaction to also eat. Might be for self preservation 'if that dragon eats everything i have nothing left', or more into your lane 'if he can eat it so can i'. So not saying there can't be some truth behind it, but i do not believe they don't eat because they are lonely. I always got dragons eating perfectly on their own without adding another dragon, the problem with non eating dragons was 90% inexperienced keepers and 10% unnoticed illnesses like worm infestations or mites.

[xSerpentGoddess]

I do agree with diet and that adults typically eat more vegetation than bug matter. We offer dragons greens and bugs daily. When a dragon starts eating less bugs we adjust for that and vice versa. Some adults continue preferring heavy bug matter. Just as some hatchling (though rare) prefer to eat greens. Your animal will really decide what's right for it. No matter how much you put in the tank they will only eat what they want.

AND

If dragons are living in a pair, and one dies, the other one almost always goes off food. If they are living happily for years as adults and go off food because of death of their tank mate the diet has nothing to do with it.

We do trouble shoot all other issues before having someone think about a second dragon: heat, UVB, diet, calcium, ETC. But when all else is right what else is there?

I realize there are many different schools of though on dragons and the internet is a plethora of good and bad information. This is what we've found to work for us.

[xSerpentGoddess]

I would really like to see where you pulled the communal part from, cause I doubt its a place where the sun shines, also have to agree with Tsubaki, i've seen dragons go off feed at that age from still being stuck on an 80/20 diet.

There are just as many online "sources" that say they need to be solitary as there are that say they do well communally. Wild dragons are be found basking together in groups. They have a social hierarchy.

I do wonder what makes you feel the need to be quite so rude over a differing opinion..

But then again, You MUST no more than I do. I only do this 40 hours/week and then I come home to tend to my own
collection.

I also find it funny that people want to comment to bash what I have to say but not to actually answer the OP's question...

[Tsubaki]

I hope your comment about bashing is not pointed towards me, since you mention 'people' comment bashing. This is a forum i expect you can accept someone simply not agreeing with you, and to my opinion i have not bashed you in any way. Simply disagreed.. If it was not towards me, please disregard this comment.

The reason i did not answer the Op's question, because i agreed with 90% of the information you had already given. The male can stay with the female if they accept each others presence and the male does not harass the female, all fine information. The only part i did not agree on was the reason why they could stay together, the only part i felt need to reply to.

And to say they are found in groups, true. But they are also found solitaire. As long as the animals are doing well, i won't ever say what you are doing is wrong. Just not the way i would do it. I can't even say which is better, ill stick to my experience and you stick to yours. Better agree to disagree than start a mud-slinging contest.

[Pirarucu]

It's one thing to say that they do well in groups in captivity, it's another to say that they are communal in the wild. I have yet to see any pictures or videos (or firsthand observations) of Bearded Dragons living together in the wild. I have only seen a handful of pictures showing more than one of them in the wild, and in most of them they were engaged in territorial displays. (And the movie Holes does not count as evidence of a communal lifestyle either.)
I'm not saying that they can't do well in groups, nor that they may not decline and go off food when they are separated from their group. What I am saying is that this is not necessarily evidence that they are communal. Most stores selling young dragons keep them in cages with quite a few others, correct? So all the dragons sold are simply used to having a lot of other dragons around, and when the others disappear the assumption must be that something happened to them and the area is no longer safe. Alternatively, as Tsubaki suggested, seeing others eating may encourage a dragon to make sure it gets a share of the food.

A friend of mine on another forum bought a group of four baby Nile Monitors a while back, with intentions to start a breeding group. After a couple months he decided against it and sold all but one. Same thing happened. With the group they were active and inquisitive, but when the group disappeared, the remaining individual dug a burrow and refused to come out if people were around.
Using your logic, this must mean that Nile Monitors are communal in the wild, yes? I bet they even hunt in packs...

The point is, you cannot use captive behavior to extrapolate their wild behavior or social structures. A lizard in a box acts like a lizard in a box, not a lizard in the wild. It's more likely that this "communal" behavior you are observing is the result of the way the animal is originally housed. Nurture, not nature. I'd be willing to bet that if you housed a baby on its own from the start, you would not see any longing to be part of a group, and if it were introduced to one as an adult it would most likely either shut down the way you described or become hostile to the others.

[CosmicOwl]

It's one thing to say that they do well in groups in captivity, it's another to say that they are communal in the wild. I have yet to see any pictures or videos (or firsthand observations) of Bearded Dragons living together in the wild. I have only seen a handful of pictures showing more than one of them in the wild, and in most of them they were engaged in territorial displays. (And the movie Holes does not count as evidence of a communal lifestyle either.)
I'm not saying that they can't do well in groups, nor that they may not decline and go off food when they are separated from their group. What I am saying is that this is not necessarily evidence that they are communal. Most stores selling young dragons keep them in cages with quite a few others, correct? So all the dragons sold are simply used to having a lot of other dragons around, and when the others disappear the assumption must be that something happened to them and the area is no longer safe. Alternatively, as Tsubaki suggested, seeing others eating may encourage a dragon to make sure it gets a share of the food.

A friend of mine on another forum bought a group of four baby Nile Monitors a while back, with intentions to start a breeding group. After a couple months he decided against it and sold all but one. Same thing happened. With the group they were active and inquisitive, but when the group disappeared, the remaining individual dug a burrow and refused to come out if people were around.
Using your logic, this must mean that Nile Monitors are communal in the wild, yes? I bet they even hunt in packs...

The point is, you cannot use captive behavior to extrapolate their wild behavior or social structures. A lizard in a box acts like a lizard in a box, not a lizard in the wild. It's more likely that this "communal" behavior you are observing is the result of the way the animal is originally housed. Nurture, not nature. I'd be willing to bet that if you housed a baby on its own from the start, you would not see any longing to be part of a group, and if it were introduced to one as an adult it would most likely either shut down the way you described or become hostile to the others.

If you raised a baby human with no other human interaction, you would end up with an emotionally stunted and disturbed individual. I'm not saying that what Serpentgoddess said is the truth, but many different lizards species are extremely social in the wild and some even work together to acquire food.

[Mr.Saturn]

The reason I asked if I should remove them is because I only have the one male and one female and for breeding I heard after they're done you remove them and let there hormones balance out and build up their nutrition for the next breeding. They were fine together, they'd lay on each other and share the food, so they got along just fine. And they would've been sharing a 20 gallon because I don't have room for my 75 so it'a just sitting outside. So they're separated in 2 20 gallons and I'll be breeding again in 2015. This first clutch didn't survive. The eggs caved in after a month. Thank you for the opinions on what's best for them.

[Pirarucu]

If you raised a baby human with no other human interaction, you would end up with an emotionally stunted and disturbed individual. I'm not saying that what Serpentgoddess said is the truth, but many different lizards species are extremely social in the wild and some even work together to acquire food.And likewise if you raised a human in a way that he never got any time to himself, he wouldn't be capable of functioning on his own. Not to mention the constant stimulus and lack of privacy might very well drive him utterly insane...
Regardless, people are not reptiles, a key distinction. Humans and virtually all closely related species are extremely social, forming troops and tribes that depend on each other. Reptiles evolved in the opposite direction, towards self-sufficiency without the need for a social group. Are some species communal? Sure. But "communal" is not "interdependent".
Which species are you talking about, exactly? I'm particularly interested in knowing what reptiles work together to acquire food...

[pdomensis]

The reason I asked if I should remove them is because I only have the one male and one female and for breeding I heard after they're done you remove them and let there hormones balance out and build up their nutrition for the next breeding. They were fine together, they'd lay on each other and share the food, so they got along just fine. And they would've been sharing a 20 gallon because I don't have room for my 75 so it'a just sitting outside. So they're separated in 2 20 gallons and I'll be breeding again in 2015. This first clutch didn't survive. The eggs caved in after a month. Thank you for the opinions on what's best for them.

Sorry you lost your clutch. Better luck next time.

[Mr.Saturn]

It was the first one so it probably wouldn't have been a good one. I was experimenting on how I could set up the lamp and get 27.6 C for the temp and it was at first, but it was supported by a metal frame and as the frame heated up it increased the temp inside the incubator and so they cooked at 40.3 C :/ it was a stupid mistake that won't happen the next time.

[Valvaren]

Wait am I misunderstanding, you have your adult bearded dragons living in 20 gallon tanks?

[xSerpentGoddess]

Tsubaki, it wasn't aimed at you :). I quoted it in the post. I can respect differing opinions but there's no reason to be outright rude.

In all honesty, I was told they were communal in the wild and seeing how they were in captivity it made sense to me. I never thought to look into it. I have and I have found sites that say both that they're communal in the wild and some that say they aren't.
Whether or not it is acquired through captive breeding, I still have seen them do way better in pairs or groups.

Mr. Saturn, The first one goes bad pretty often. Sometimes they don't even make it that long :) The 2nd clutch is always better.

[Mr.Saturn]

They're about a 12-15" head to tail, so they aren't that large like most adults, but age wise is consider them adults. Again, I have a 75, but at the moment, no place to put them. My female bearded dragon I know needs a larger terrarium because her favorite tree is too small for her now, half of her hangs off when she lays on it. But there's plenty of room for them to move around and hang out.

[Mr.Saturn]

My male is 16" and the femal is 15" head to tail. Both of them are in 20L terrariums, so the terrariums are 24" long.

[Valvaren]

:\ And you think that is adequate?

[Mr.Saturn]

No I do not, but like I've said 2 times before, I don't have room for the 75 gallon and I also made the comment that I know they need a larger terrarium because my female beardie no longer fits on her favorite tree and the larger one would hit the top of the terrarium so she needs a larger terrarium. And I know the rule of thumb is to have the length of the terrarium 2x the adult length of the reptile.

[smy_749]

No I do not, but like I've said 2 times before, I don't have room for the 75 gallon and I also made the comment that I know they need a larger terrarium because my female beardie no longer fits on her favorite tree and the larger one would hit the top of the terrarium so she needs a larger terrarium. And I know the rule of thumb is to have the length of the terrarium 2x the adult length of the reptile.

Thats absurd. 2 times its length? One leap and thats it? Go as big as you can, make 4 times your minimum. Humans can survive in Jail cells....closets even. Its no bueno my friend, especially for diurnal active species.

[Valvaren]

A 75 for two beardies? Heck 55 is what people say as the minimum for one and I find that way to small. 4x2x2 is a perfect size for one adult beardie.

[Mr.Saturn]

I never said it was for 2 of them. I have 1 at them moment that I got for $20.

[jarich]

Can I ask you a serious question Mr Saturn? Why do you want to breed them? There are already far too many of these animals being bred, to the point that they now become throw away pets sold to kids. The rescues are full of them. You have to understand that its not just a simple case of one clutch and then youre done. The females bank the male sperm and cycle repeatedly in a single season. You could easily end up with 120 or so eggs per year. In such small enclosures you risk egg stasis, and thats just one of the numerous problems that can arise with multiple cycling in females. Then the question remains, what are you going to do with these little babies when you get them? Most pet stores wont buy from individual breeders. Even if they did, youd get almost nothing for them, so money cant be a motivation. If you dont sell them right away, where are you going to put them? Since you dont have room for a single 75 gallon, how will you house dozens of growing babies? I know its fun to think about breeding reptiles, but there are more issues involved than what is fun for the keeper. Please reconsider what you are doing. I doubt you would want to be part of what would likely be a slow painful death that most of these animals go through.