Need help tweaking heat for Ball

[Sylorna]

Hello!
We have a male ball that is approximately 8 months old. We recently moved him from a much too small PVC display case to a glass 30gal glass tank with a wire top.
We are using a heating cord under the aspen to heat the tank. He has 2 hides, a stick to climb on and water available at all times.
He ate his first meal in the tank, but has refused meals since then. We are not sure if he does not like where his tank is now; if the new feeders are too big; if the new feeders just don't smell right (he has always had feeders from the same guy...same stock, but it is no longer available); if he's just being a male ball during the winter; or if he is not warm enough.
I bought a digital thermometer last weekend and covered his lid with tinfoil, as I read on another site that it can keep the heat in better. It certainly keeps the humidity in better. I left the lid without tinfoil so he has some good airflow. If you put the thermometer right up to the aspen on the hot end it reads 94F. If you raise it slightly and take the temp of the air it reads 85-87F. The cool end reads 78F. I'm wondering if we should be looking at A) getting a dimmer switch for the cording so he doesn't accidentally burn...if we do, what temp should I aim for? and B) if we should get a low watt bulb to raise the ambient temp a little higher.
He is still currently using both of his hides regularly and with the exception of the last 2 nights he has been coming out and exploring nightly.

Thanks for your help!

[smy_749]

Thermostat

[Sylorna]

sorry, could you explain?

[smy_749]

Don't get a rheostat, and don't get a lamp to heat up the enclosure. Just buy a thermostat, hook up your heat source to it, set it and forget it. I can't comment on why hes not eating, just saying the most reliable way to get desired temps with your heat source.

[Sylorna]

Ok, that's the type of advice I'm looking for. In terms of the not eating, I figure we just need to negate one variable at a time.
Are all thermostats created equal?
Thanks for your help.

[smy_749]

Ok, that's the type of advice I'm looking for. In terms of the not eating, I figure we just need to negate one variable at a time.
Are all thermostats created equal?
Thanks for your help.

Herpstat, vivarium electronics, Helix would be good choices for the upper end of the price range. They are proportional, adjusting the output as opposed to on/off (with exception of the lower models I think ...VE100 or something)
Having the ability to program a Night drop and lights on/off cycles is nice too.

Hygrofarm /Hydrofarm, I dont remember what its called. 35 dollars, On/Off stat, nothing to program except the desired temp. and works pretty good if you have a few degrees of leniency (your not incubating or needing exact temps) and if you aren't using a lamp. It will continue to turn the lamp on and off. Its really annoying and your lamp won't last long.

I have the herpstat and the hygrofarm, I use them both and like them both.

[Sylorna]

thanks again

[Lankyrob]

As you have a mesh top tank what is the humidity like?

[Mikoh4792]

Herpstat, vivarium electronics, Helix would be good choices for the upper end of the price range. They are proportional, adjusting the output as opposed to on/off (with exception of the lower models I think ...VE100 or something)
Having the ability to program a Night drop and lights on/off cycles is nice too.

Hygrofarm /Hydrofarm, I dont remember what its called. 35 dollars, On/Off stat, nothing to program except the desired temp. and works pretty good if you have a few degrees of leniency (your not incubating or needing exact temps) and if you aren't using a lamp. It will continue to turn the lamp on and off. Its really annoying and your lamp won't last long.

I have the herpstat and the hygrofarm, I use them both and like them both.

All good suggestions.I too have the herpstat and hygrofarm.

The high end models are nice because they are proportional and have more features(night drop, ramping...etc). The hygrofarm is good because of it's price. Works well but you can still afford it if you are on a budget.

Other decent budget thermostats are bigapple and ranco/johnsons

[Sylorna]

I have to be honest and say that I do not know what the humidity is exactly. I covered the lid to the tank with tinfoil to help keep the humidity and heat in, leaving a 4"X6" door exposed for air circulation. I could cover it too if I need to. I mist regularly, have water available at all times, (over the heat cord) and have a humidifier set up next to the tank for the house, which is set to 40% at all times.

Everyone: Whenever I do a search for hygrofarm I find stuff for hydrofarm thermostats. They are used for hydroponics, and I see some other people have used them successfully. Do you have any thoughts? Finding stuff like this in Canada can be a bit challenging. Worst case there is another reptile expo in March that I plan on attending.

I'm confused about something though. Everywhere I read, I read that you measure the temp for the thermostats at the source of heat, and you set said heat to the temp you want for the tank. If you do that, the temperature on top of the substrate would be cooler, would it not?
Also: There's a lot of talk about ambient temperatures, which I take to mean the air in the tank. Where do you measure said ambient temp, and if you are in a situation like mine where the air is much cooler than the substrate, do you need to heat the air? (back to the light fixture thing).

[Mikoh4792]

I'm confused about something though. Everywhere I read, I read that you measure the temp for the thermostats at the source of heat, and you set said heat to the temp you want for the tank. If you do that, the temperature on top of the substrate would be cooler, would it not?
Also: There's a lot of talk about ambient temperatures, which I take to mean the air in the tank. Where do you measure said ambient temp, and if you are in a situation like mine where the air is much cooler than the substrate, do you need to heat the air? (back to the light fixture thing).


1.You plug the heat source( heat lamp, heat mat, radiant heat panel) to the thermostat.

2. When using a heat mat/heat tape you can tape the probe directly on the heat mat/heat tape, or you can put the probe inside the enclosure on the floor of the cage. When you place the probe directly on the heat source outside the enclosure, you obviously need to set the temp a little higher to get the desired hotspot inside the cage(ie. I set mine to 99F to get a 90F hotspot). When you place the probe inside the enclosure on the floor of the cage you usually set the temp to desired hotspot(ie. set the temp to 90F to get a 90F hotspot).

3.When using an overhead heat source you can place the probe on the floor of the cage, on an elevated perch... basically anywhere. With radiant heat panels I choose to attach the probe on a perch using zip ties. Then I set it to the desired hotspot(ie. 90F)

example:
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a594/mikoh4792/20131103_143521_zps7729b01b.jpg




And you are correct on ambient air temperatures. You can use most thermometers to measure air temps, I like to use accurite thermometers from amazon. And yes, air usually gets cold as it does where i live, I like to use an overhead heat source to heat the air(in my case RHP's)

[Sylorna]

Ok, so after some searching, I can either order a hydrofarm, which will show in about 10 days or I can go down to the store and get a repti temp. Is one better?
Planning on grabbing a low watt lamp as well.

[Mikoh4792]

Ok, so after some searching, I can either order a hydrofarm, which will show in about 10 days or I can go down to the store and get a repti temp. Is one better?
Planning on grabbing a low watt lamp as well.

I'd go with hydrofarm. Instead of a heat lamp, I'd invest in a radiant heat panels.

I noticed you said you were using a glass tank to house him. Screen tops and heat lamps don't mix well for moderate humidity requiring species.

[Terranaut]

No lamps. Hydrafarms are awesome for the money. Seal the entire lid other than a couple square inches. If you can you might want to consider a tub. Look it up on here. Aquariums are about the worst thing you can keep a ball in.

[Sylorna]

So how do I increase the ambient temp without a lamp if the substrate is already too hot and I'm having to decrease the temp on that? The hot end is too hot and the cold end is too cold as it stands. What is the issue with putting a red 40watt bulb over the tank to increase the temp 5-10 degrees?

I'll order the hydrofarm to arrive in a week and a half and am going to adjust the cord in the mean time.

As mentioned, I have covered the lid a week ago.

I understand that people do not appreciate glass tanks, and I get it, however, I am trying to make due with what I have and what is available to me. In the future, when we have a house, perhaps I will take the time to create a build on a wooden unit, however I cannot do that until we have a house.

[Mikoh4792]

So how do I increase the ambient temp without a lamp if the substrate is already too hot and I'm having to decrease the temp on that? The hot end is too hot and the cold end is too cold as it stands. What is the issue with putting a red 40watt bulb over the tank to increase the temp 5-10 degrees?

I'll order the hydrofarm to arrive in a week and a half and am going to adjust the cord in the mean time.

As mentioned, I have covered the lid a week ago.

I understand that people do not appreciate glass tanks, and I get it, however, I am trying to make due with what I have and what is available to me. In the future, when we have a house, perhaps I will take the time to create a build on a wooden unit, however I cannot do that until we have a house.

Can you post pics of your setup?

Lamps are fine for heating, they just tend to dry out the air very quickly. And even if your enclosure is humid, the area right beneath the lamp still gets dried out quicker.

Some people make it work, but many people can't.

As mentioned before, radiant heat panels are the way to go.

[Toggsy]

TBH I think the problem maybe the tank itself more so it's the fact that's its glass.
Glass tanks are notoriously bad for keeping heat and ambient temps so personally I would go for decent wooden viv you'll find the all round temps will be more stable and easier to control, you won't get problems with loss of heat and ambient temp will be more stable.
I've experienced similar problems with corn I was keeping in a glass tank so switched over to wooden viv after lots advice from others since then I've not had any issues with ambient or heat loss.

[Mikoh4792]

TBH I think the problem maybe the tank itself more so it's the fact that's its glass.
Glass tanks are notoriously bad for keeping heat and ambient temps so personally I would go for decent wooden viv you'll find the all round temps will be more stable and easier to control, you won't get problems with loss of heat and ambient temp will be more stable.
I've experienced similar problems with corn I was keeping in a glass tank so switched over to wooden viv after lots advice from others since then I've not had any issues with ambient or heat loss.


this, or if you don't have the time to build a wooden viv now, i'd buy a plastic enclosure from animal plastics, constrictors north west, pvc cages...etc. They are also good at insulating heat and humidity.

[Terranaut]

So how do I increase the ambient temp without a lamp if the substrate is already too hot and I'm having to decrease the temp on that? The hot end is too hot and the cold end is too cold as it stands. What is the issue with putting a red 40watt bulb over the tank to increase the temp 5-10 degrees?

I'll order the hydrofarm to arrive in a week and a half and am going to adjust the cord in the mean time.

As mentioned, I have covered the lid a week ago.

I understand that people do not appreciate glass tanks, and I get it, however, I am trying to make due with what I have and what is available to me. In the future, when we have a house, perhaps I will take the time to create a build on a wooden unit, however I cannot do that until we have a house.
Glass tanks are fine for many species...just takes a lot of work to make it good for a ball python. Pics would be good. What is the ambient temp of the room the enclosure is in? What ate you using to measure temps? Have no fear we are here to help make it right. What substrate do you use? Where abouts in Onyario are you? Maybe if we know what city we can tell you were to shop. Just incase your not aware a nice tub will only cost you about $20 and other that viewing itbis 100% better for a ball. Keep the glass for a king or corn or something. Just my opinion but it would save you so many headaches.

[Toggsy]

this, or if you don't have the time to build a wooden viv now, i'd buy a plastic enclosure from animal plastics, constrictors north west, pvc cages...etc. They are also good at insulating heat and humidity.
I'm not a big fan of plastic cages and rubs but in some cases they do have their uses.
I'm from the Uk are the vivexotics range vivs available across the pond ?
There not bad vivs TBH, easy to put to together so even someone with DIY experience can make one up, plus prices are also reasonable cheap.

[Mikoh4792]

I'm not a big fan of plastic cages and rubs but in some cases they do have their uses.
I'm from the Uk are the vivexotics range vivs available across the pond ?
There not bad vivs TBH, easy to put to together so even someone with DIY experience can make one up, plus prices are also reasonable cheap.

Not sure, never heard of vivexotics. Why don't you like plastic cages? I think they're better than wood most of the time.

[Sylorna]

Ok, so I'll get some pics up in a bit...after I make some needed changes.
We are going to:
1. move the tank to a quieter place in the room
2.reduce the substrate (currently about 2 inches thick, but I read it should be about half that)
3. Attach a heating pad to the back of the tank to provide some extra ambient heat.
4. Add a couple extra layers of tinfoil to the top, as apparently it helps to have it a bit thicker.

The issue is that I just bought this tank (albeit 2nd hand) in part because we could never see our snake, and therefore were not enjoying him. Previous to this I was actually considering adopting him out as a result of it. A plastic tub would be unsightly, and I would be back to not enjoying my pet.

The second part of the issue is that we live in an apartment, and therefore do not have access to things like outdoor spaces, ventilation, or tools which we would need to build the wood housing you are suggesting.

I am currently awaiting a response from someone regarding price on a PVC tank, although I think they're pretty unattractive as well. Like everyone here I am also on a tight budget...which makes things less easy.

Terranut, I live in Brampton, and typically shop for reptile stuff in Toronto. Ambient temp in the room is around 75F. I use a laser thermometer; and the substrate is aspen.

I really wish that the wooden option was more common in Canada, so I could purchase one on Kijiji, and sell off the glass one for around the same cost.

Soo if we can get the temps more regulated for now, I might be able to talk my brother in law into making something for us this summer or pick up a PVC tank on sale. Looks like it might be a couple hundred dollars in supplies to make one though? Am I imagining things?

Thank you all for your concern. We live, we learn, we grow, right?

[LarryS]

The bad rep glass tanks get really is not deserved IMO.

I think the reason they do have the bad reputation amongst keepers has more to do with the design itself than the material they are made out of. The insulating difference between glass and plywood is minuscule if in fact there is one at all. If memory serves, I believe 1/4" glass actually has a higher R value than 1/2" plywood. That surprises most people.

There are other factors involving the materials themselves that may cause difficulties of some form or another, but if properly configured a glass tank can perform as well as one made of plywood.

I just don't understand why more people don't lay their glass tanks on the side and install a door of some sort over the now front opening. It is as inexpensive of a DIY cage as they come.

[Terranaut]

So how are you measuring ambient temps in the viv? Here is my suggestion. First if your heat cord is inside the viv you need to remove it and place it under the viv. I know a guy in Brampton who sells wired heat tape. He can hook you up with enough to heat 1/3 of your viv. With the hydrafarm your heatbissues are solved and the tape will cost the same as a heat matt. Then get a a different substrate. Aspen is fine unless your setup can rob humidity. Use a reptibark or cypress or bio active setup. Get a cheap small led light to light the tank with at a dollar store. Using lights to heat causes convection which is why these tanks can be bad. But eliminate a hot light at the top and you reduce that too. You can buy white Styrofoam style insulation at Home depot or Rona. Put it on the top. Any little air crack is enough. If it is unsightly you can wrap it with black fabric for next to nothing. All of this is very cheap, uses what you have and will be 100% better than now. Seeing as you are just up the 401 I assume your home is sitting at 20ish% humidity like mine. I control my snake room to 50-60% . If yours is low your ball will have shed issues.

[Sylorna]

Thanks Terranaut
I am embarrassed to say that my cord was inside, but I took it out after realizing it shouldn't be today. We put it under the tank, not attaching it and raising the corners of the tank so it will lessen the heat. We agreed that the cord does not have an even temperature and gets really hot (can't wait for that thermostat to arrive). Will be replacing it (with tape?) in a paycheck or so.

The thermometer has a reading of ambient temps when it is on standby, so that's what I've been using.

Our humidity sits at 40ish because I have a humidifyer that runs all winter long...I just can't stand the static and dry skin during the winter. I have placed the water bowl over the warm end, and I think the reptibark will probably do a nice job of adjusting the rest. I had forgotten about that stuff, used to use it for some african land snails I had and it was really good stuff.

[CameronVarnish]

No lamps. Hydrafarms are awesome for the money. Seal the entire lid other than a couple square inches. If you can you might want to consider a tub. Look it up on here. Aquariums are about the worst thing you can keep a ball in.

true but I think a cardboard box may be worse
:p

[Sylorna]

The hydrafarm arrived today (1 week early) while I was at work. Will be picking it up from the depot on my way home tomorrow.
Is it better to put it directly on the heat source or in the hot spot? Does it matter? At what temp should I worry about him moving the substrate and touching the glass? Ie: Burns? He buried himself last Sunday in the cold hide, but this was before I moved him to the more secluded spot. Hasn't done it since, but it still makes me uneasy. Thankfully it was on the cold side.

The heat mat on the back (an older one...I have an anti sticking policy with my pads) is working really well to bring up the ambient temp. Glad I remembered I had it.

I think we talked too much about humidity this weekend. My humidifier decided to go on the fritz yesterday suddenly. I think I just need to pick up a new filter this weekend, but still, it has some great timing!

[Sylorna]

I realized I could do a search and did so...it's on the cord and currently set to 95...I'll check the temps in a bit once it starts to regulate a bit more.
Thanks again!

[Aaron_S]

Ok, so I'll get some pics up in a bit...after I make some needed changes.
We are going to:
1. move the tank to a quieter place in the room
2.reduce the substrate (currently about 2 inches thick, but I read it should be about half that)
3. Attach a heating pad to the back of the tank to provide some extra ambient heat.
4. Add a couple extra layers of tinfoil to the top, as apparently it helps to have it a bit thicker.

The issue is that I just bought this tank (albeit 2nd hand) in part because we could never see our snake, and therefore were not enjoying him. Previous to this I was actually considering adopting him out as a result of it. A plastic tub would be unsightly, and I would be back to not enjoying my pet.

The second part of the issue is that we live in an apartment, and therefore do not have access to things like outdoor spaces, ventilation, or tools which we would need to build the wood housing you are suggesting.

I am currently awaiting a response from someone regarding price on a PVC tank, although I think they're pretty unattractive as well. Like everyone here I am also on a tight budget...which makes things less easy.

Terranut, I live in Brampton, and typically shop for reptile stuff in Toronto. Ambient temp in the room is around 75F. I use a laser thermometer; and the substrate is aspen.

I really wish that the wooden option was more common in Canada, so I could purchase one on Kijiji, and sell off the glass one for around the same cost.

Soo if we can get the temps more regulated for now, I might be able to talk my brother in law into making something for us this summer or pick up a PVC tank on sale. Looks like it might be a couple hundred dollars in supplies to make one though? Am I imagining things?

Thank you all for your concern. We live, we learn, we grow, right?

With honest sincerity maybe you've picked a bad species.

You go on about how you want to see your pet and how you pick housing for it based on your need to see it and necessarily the animals needs first.

Ball pythons are NOT the best display animal. They do not come out often and when they do it is usually at night.
They prefer to be secluded. It is something built into their instinctual brain (they live in rodent burrows/abandoned termite mounds in the wild).

Maybe you should re-consider adopting your ball python out to someone else and going with a more active snake that doesn't quite have the same humidity requirements you can accommodate.
A corn snake or king snake would do just fine in the enclosure you currently have. They don't require high humdity or heat. Both come in variety of colours. Eat well. Handle well. Affordable and will meet your activity requirement in your pet.

It's just a silly notion to make the animal bend to our needs in a pet instead of finding the pet that simply fits our needs.

[Aaron_S]

The bad rep glass tanks get really is not deserved IMO.

I think the reason they do have the bad reputation amongst keepers has more to do with the design itself than the material they are made out of. The insulating difference between glass and plywood is minuscule if in fact there is one at all. If memory serves, I believe 1/4" glass actually has a higher R value than 1/2" plywood. That surprises most people.

There are other factors involving the materials themselves that may cause difficulties of some form or another, but if properly configured a glass tank can perform as well as one made of plywood.

I just don't understand why more people don't lay their glass tanks on the side and install a door of some sort over the now front opening. It is as inexpensive of a DIY cage as they come.

Side note, you would be correct.

Someone on here posted I believe the "r" ratings for materials and I believe glass was the best if not one of the best regarding how well it insulates.

That was some time ago though and don't remember where he got the info from.

Tanks are poor choices for a number of species but on different merits though.