30gal Saltwater tankmates ???

[dbank999]

I will have an extra 30 gallon aquarium once I finish my Ball python's final enclosure that I would like to use to set up a saltwater system.

Want some opinions on my stocking list... (hard to keep alive, too many fish, compatibilty issues, etc)

Fish:
2 Ocellaris Clownfish (Tank Bred)
1 Saddle Valentini Puffer
1 Leaf Fish
2 Blue Gudgeon Dartfish
2 Green Mandarin Fish

Inverts:
4 Camel Shrimp
2 Red-Banded Snapping Shrimp
1 Decorator Crab
1 Blue Maxima Clam (first grade blue)(Aquacultured) - very unlikely, but too cool looking not to consider :cool:

Substrate:
Live sand
Live rock - 40lbs

So what do you other saltwater keepers think?

[swolek]

There are a few problems with your list.

-Too many fish, a 30-gallon should really only have a few as it's considered "small" for saltwater.

-Your puffer may eat your shrimp and crab.

-The leaf fish may eat your smaller fish and would definitely eat the shrimp.

-The dartfish need more space than a 30-gallon. They tend to be stressed in smaller tanks and end up with shorter lifespans.

-Mandarin fish are really not for beginners. You'd absolutely need captive bred specimens and even then, feeding is a pain. If you get lucky and yours will eat frozen food (oyster eggs were a favorite with mine), it's difficult to feed them because the other fish in the tank will eat everything. Mandarin fish are slow, shy feeders. They have fast metabolism and do best with multiple meals throughout the day. And that's all for captive bred ones...the wild-caught ones are very difficult to "train" to eat prepared foods and tend to starve to death.

The clownfish were a good start but the rest of your list just isn't compatible. Have you considered any of the following?

*Watchman goby
*Yellowtail damsel
*Springer's damsel
*Neon goby
*Clown goby
*Tanaka's pygmy wrasse
*Possum wrasse
*Royal gramma (occasionally eat smaller shrimp but not often)
*Bicolor blenny
*Tailspot blenny
*Six line wrasse (feed often or they become jerks)
*Flameback angelfish

The above fish all work with clowns, can be comfortable in a 30-gallon, and are unlikely to bother your invertebrates.

Also, the clam would need some pretty intense lighting and excellent water quality. I wouldn't bother unless you're planning to do a full-fledged reef in the future.

[dbank999]

Thank you!

Yes I was worried about the leaf fish and puffer.

Good info on the darts too because 30 seems to be the recommended size but as we know these can ALWAYS be incorrect for any species.

For the Mandarin I guess I will wait off for now, I do plan on having a 220gal when I have a permanent housing situation, so maybe I will work with those in the 30 later down the road with the experience (this would be a new stocking situation in the 30, so you know I don't intend to cram more fish in later lol) but again great info to know.

The clam, if I was even to get it, would not be until I had 220 or it was guaranteed in the near future.

So for the 30, would you recommend a pair of clowns, pair of watchmans, and a flameback be a good stock list ?

Thanks again for all the good info, this forum has so many good members for diversity of species

[swolek]

If in the future you do get the mandarins and clam, let me know, I've kept both species so I've learned little tips and tricks along the way :).

That sounds good except I'd do a single watchman as there's never any guarantee a pair will work. Unless you buy two that are already paired, anyway. One of your snapping shrimp might even pair with your goby, they'll share food and a burrow :). It's really neat to watch.

I'd add the flameback last, after the tank has been running for a while with no issues. Angels can be a bit more sensitive and don't do well in brand new tanks, plus they like grazing on the algae growing on well-established liverock. As far as angels go, though, flamebacks are considered easier. They also don't tend to nip coral if you get any coral in the future.

[IW17]

I would suggest no more than three fish. Unless your going to have a sump, 30 gallons isn't much water volume. Plus one you add live rock it's even less. Go with the pair of clowns, then add one more. My 29 gallon has a pair of black ice clowns, and a diamond watchmen goby. The clowns occupy the main water column, and the goby skirts the bottom. Plus they are a very comical addition.

Keep an eye out for aggression with the clowns, as they are a species of damsel and can get very territorial in such a small space.

[psychocircus]

IMO a flame would also be too active for a 30 gallon.

liveaquaria.com has some pretty accurate minimum tank sizes listed for fish

[IW17]

Good call, I didn't catch that. No angels in a 30 gallon, especially not with clowns. Angels need more space, and both species are territorial. They would need more space to establish boundaries. Live aquaria is a pretty good site. Some size recommendations are off but overall pretty close.

[psychocircus]

woops just noticed it said flameback angel, not flame angel, but my opinion stands.
Less really is more in the saltwater world

[dbank999]

Thanks guys.

I actually used liveaquaria as a resource for all the fish I picked, and all were good for the 30 (at least that's what it says) but I am glad to have checked because I know there isn't a general guide line for amount of fish for saltwater like there typically is used in freshwater.

All helpful advice!

I'm still thinking two clowns and a goby or something similar. And to create more variety I'll probably just get some more inverts and maybe some beginner corals.

Really excited in getting into the saltwater world, I like the planning and process it takes to be successful

[psychocircus]

Thanks guys.

I actually used liveaquaria as a resource for all the fish I picked, and all were good for the 30 (at least that's what it says) but I am glad to have checked because I know there isn't a general guide line for amount of fish for saltwater like there typically is used in freshwater.

All helpful advice!

I'm still thinking two clowns and a goby or something similar. And to create more variety I'll probably just get some more inverts and maybe some beginner corals.

Really excited in getting into the saltwater world, I like the planning and process it takes to be successful

Do you have an ro/di system?
What lighting are you planning to use?
Are you planning on purchasing a hyrdrometer or refractometer for measuring salinity?
Are you planning to run any kind of filtration?
Any plans for circulation pumps yet?

[dbank999]

Do you have an ro/di system?
What lighting are you planning to use?
Are you planning on purchasing a hyrdrometer or refractometer for measuring salinity?
Are you planning to run any kind of filtration?
Any plans for circulation pumps yet?

Lighting I will purchase something with 10000k and actinic and appropriate wattage.

Yes I will get a hydrometer, how else would I measure specific gravity ?
Well there are ways but I got enough of that in my fluid mechanics labs ��

Filtration will be about 40 lbs of live rock, live sand, a marineland c-360 canister filter, and the filter feeders

Any extra flow needed to meet the 30-40x turnover will be with either powerheads or a protein skimmer, or a combination. I'm unsure if I want to do a sump with a skimmer or a hang on skimmer since the tank is small.

And I have access to purchasing distilled or RO'd water, I'll keep an extra 30 gallons stored for emergency change outs

[dbank999]

Basically I can research and find everything I need for setting up the tank and getting it cycled, but the info on how species work together and size requirements is varied and scarce.

I got a lot of good info on species for the setup :D

I may get a 55gal setup instead since I don't know the history of this 30gal and if don't want to risk a leak or break.

What would be another good fish to add if I did go up?

2 clown
1 goby
1 ???

[psychocircus]

Basically I can research and find everything I need for setting up the tank and getting it cycled, but the info on how species work together and size requirements is varied and scarce.

I got a lot of good info on species for the setup :D

I may get a 55gal setup instead since I don't know the history of this 30gal and if don't want to risk a leak or break.

What would be another good fish to add if I did go up?

2 clown
1 goby
1 ???

It would really vary. You have A LOT more options if you go with a 55.
I originally got a 29g biocube and it arrived broken. Later I went to a new fish store and they had a 75 gallon and I just went for it. I'm so glad I dd. Much easier to maintain and so much more I could do with it.

If you get a 55 are you definitely wanting coral, or undecided?

[dbank999]

I'd be undecided, originally I wanted just FOWLR but when it was less fish I thought some coral would make it a little more interesting. I guess it really would depend on the stocking list for the 55gal.

I definitely want a pair of clowns, any suggestions for interesting (active/weird behavior/fun to watch) that will spruce it up ?

Suggested stock list ?

[IW17]

Skip the 55 and find a 75. More floor space which will make aquascaping your live rock much easier and if you decide to go reef, will give you much more layout space for corals.

[psychocircus]

If you go 55/75 FOWLR you can add more fish than you would a 55/75 reef. (although you can keep adding things to your reef throughout the tanks life, whereas FOWLR you are more limited.)

If I were to set up a 55 FOWLR (and considering your desire for clowns) I'd probably do something like:

If I wanted large fish:
2 Maroon Clowns
1 Dwarf Fuzzy Lionfish
1 Dwarf Angel

If I wanted smaller fish:
2 ocellaris clowns
1 six line wrasse
1 dwarf angel
1 Yellow tail damsel
1 goby

People will tell you that damsels are very aggressive and they're right. IME the yellow tails are the exception.

Of course you have limitless options, but I like those lists.

[swolek]

I agree with everyone saying bigger is better, it always is when it comes to saltwater!

I still believe a flameback angel is fine in a 30-gallon but that's just my opinion. I wouldn't house any other angels in a tank that size except for the Cherub (which are similar anyway). But yeah, you can't have many fish in a 30-gallon.

I wouldn't do maroon clowns, they're complete jerks in my experience. I would stick to the ocellaris or try skunk clowns.

As far as damsels go, yeah, the yellow tails are nice. But everyone always forgets the poor Springer's damsel, haha, they're the other peaceful damsel! Pictures don't do them justice, they literally glow when they're excited!

[psychocircus]

I agree with everyone saying bigger is better, it always is when it comes to saltwater!

I still believe a flameback angel is fine in a 30-gallon but that's just my opinion. I wouldn't house any other angels in a tank that size except for the Cherub (which are similar anyway). But yeah, you can't have many fish in a 30-gallon.

I wouldn't do maroon clowns, they're complete jerks in my experience. I would stick to the ocellaris or try skunk clowns.

As far as damsels go, yeah, the yellow tails are nice. But everyone always forgets the poor Springer's damsel, haha, they're the other peaceful damsel! Pictures don't do them justice, they literally glow when they're excited!

The maroons sure can be mean. I wouldn't be too worried about an angel or lion with them though ;)

[IW17]

Two maroons are a bad idea. They are one species of clown fish that is not recommended in pairs. You'd be fine with one but add it last so other fish establish territory first. But be ready to remove the maroon clown if he starts beating up his tank mates.

[dbank999]

I understand that it takes awhile to get it established and that adding tank mates is a lengthy process to allow for acclimation so my list may change as I go along but for a plan, with the advice given, how would this work:

For a 55 gallon setup
The 2 clowns
1 six line wrasse
1 goby
1/2 beginner corals (polyp and maybe LPS)
And the inverts listed before

Opinions?

[IW17]

Looks good. Just stick with suitable species of clown. But keep in mind, not all clowns pair regardless of species. And removing a bully fish out of a large tank with that much live rock is a freakin chore. Trust me I've been there done that. The only way to be certain of a pairing is to purchase a mated pair. This can be costly. Not saying it won't work. Honestly I would just buy two clowns and wing it. But you should know what can happen. If you purchase one large and one small it clears up a pecking order and if it wasn't already the large will turn female. The six line is another bully species. I have no problem with mine, but the are notoriously Aggressive. Again, not trying to talk you out of it, just wanna put it out there.

As for corals you should let your tank run for at least three months before adding coral. Some say even longer. The biggest part is making sure your water quality is on part. My advice would be adding mushrooms, zoa's, Kenya tree and star polyps. They all grow quickly and are tolerant of less than stellar water quality. They will help dress up the tank while you wait. And when I say the grow fast I mean it. In 6 months they will explode, so less is more when starting out. Stick to frags, and spread them out. Before you know it you will be cutting frags yourself.

[psychocircus]

I understand that it takes awhile to get it established and that adding tank mates is a lengthy process to allow for acclimation so my list may change as I go along but for a plan, with the advice given, how would this work:

For a 55 gallon setup
The 2 clowns
1 six line wrasse
1 goby
1/2 beginner corals (polyp and maybe LPS)
And the inverts listed before

Opinions?

You could definitely add another fish or two, as the one's you've listed are small. Although with less fish, it is easier to maintain water quality. I currently only have 3 fish in my 75.

Looks good. Just stick with suitable species of clown. But keep in mind, not all clowns pair regardless of species. And removing a bully fish out of a large tank with that much live rock is a freakin chore. Trust me I've been there done that. The only way to be certain of a pairing is to purchase a mated pair. This can be costly. Not saying it won't work. Honestly I would just buy two clowns and wing it. But you should know what can happen. If you purchase one large and one small it clears up a pecking order and if it wasn't already the large will turn female. The six line is another bully species. I have no problem with mine, but the are notoriously Aggressive. Again, not trying to talk you out of it, just wanna put it out there.

As for corals you should let your tank run for at least three months before adding coral. Some say even longer. The biggest part is making sure your water quality is on part. My advice would be adding mushrooms, zoa's, Kenya tree and star polyps. They all grow quickly and are tolerant of less than stellar water quality. They will help dress up the tank while you wait. And when I say the grow fast I mean it. In 6 months they will explode, so less is more when starting out. Stick to frags, and spread them out. Before you know it you will be cutting frags yourself.

I agree with the beginner corals. Be careful with mushrooms though. They spread like wildfire and are near impossible to kill. They can eventually grow over other corals and kill them. With a change in flow/lighting they will detach from the rock and go to another.

[IW17]

Yes they can grow quickly. Same with Kenya trees. One day nothing, then very quickly an explosion. But it's not like a fish that you have to chase. You can just reach in and pull them out. I do that to mine abut once every 4-6 weeks.

[dbank999]

Okay so upon further research, I think I will be buying a Clear-for-life 60 gallon acrylic aquarium (48''x15''x20'')

This way I can use the 30 gallon for a homemade sump underneath the DT, and with the acrylic, I can easily drill for bulkheads and plumbing. Since the tank is on the smaller side, I want to be able to hide all the running equipment underneath.

I'm going to stick with the current plans for stocking that I most recently described, and I will add later if I feel like it.

For corals, I was thinking radioactive dragon eye, trumpet coral and the kenya tree.


I also plan to have a refugarium in the sump, with a octo reef nwb110 skimmer, and possibly some extra mechanical filtration, I know these filter catridges can become nitrate factories if not cleaned religously.

[swolek]

I also plan to have a refugarium in the sump, with a octo reef nwb110 skimmer, and possibly some extra mechanical filtration, I know these filter catridges can become nitrate factories if not cleaned religously.

Yeah, I personally wouldn't bother with mechanical filtration. It's totally unnecessary and any nitrates are not good for a reef set-up. If you want more water movement, use power heads, not filters.

[psychocircus]

Agreed. if you have a skimmer, don't use mechanical filtration.

[dbank999]

Yeah, I personally wouldn't bother with mechanical filtration. It's totally unnecessary and any nitrates are not good for a reef set-up. If you want more water movement, use power heads, not filters.


Yeah, I was probably going to skip any mechanical filtration, but was slightly considering it. It would be the last added to the system since for a while since I will be only cycling the tank with live rock until the nitrite levels peak and drop for a month or two.

I will be using powerheads for added flow since the skimmer and filter would have been in the sump (this flow does not help with turnover in the DT since it is isolated in the sump setup.)

I'm thinking:
2 in-tank Hydor 600gph powerheads (1200 gph)
And I will engineer up an overflow system to obtain the other 1000-1200 gph for a 36-40x turnover rate.
I want a higher turnover rate due to presence of corals that will be in the tank.

I ran through a bernoulli's continuity equation real quick at work just now and I got 1" for a drain pipe, at 33" of head from inlet to outlet.

But I need to double check these figures when I have more since it was a quick look on my break.

Any suggestions feel free to add!

NO HOB siphon boxes please.

[psychocircus]

sounds like you are on the right track!

[DragonsEye]

A cool invert would be a mantis shrimp. Unfortunately, you would not be able to keep any other critters in the tank with one from what I understand.

Look forward to seeing whatever you decide upon.

[psychocircus]

A cool invert would be a mantis shrimp. Unfortunately, you would not be able to keep any other critters in the tank with one from what I understand.

Look forward to seeing whatever you decide upon.

fascinating animals. they have armor stronger than a tanks, snap their claw with more powerful that a 45 caliber bullet, and it produces heat hotter than the surface of the sun.

but yeah they'll kill everything lol

[mistersprinkles]

.::AquariumPros.ca::. (http://www.aquariumpros.ca/)

SW only forum. Experts. Lots of em. Post there.

[psychocircus]

aquariumadvice.com is a good one as well.

[dbank999]

Well guys... about $1000 later, a craiglist's adventure in a snowstorm, hours of internet shopping and nearly (not even kidding) 60 hours of researching forums/websites/LFS experts.... I am almost ready to start a set-up. (Going to get RO water, salt mix, and sand* this weekend)

EDIT: also one or two small live rock pieces to seed my dry base rock.

Toying with a BB (bare bottom) set-up idea.

If you guys are interested... I will be creating a new thread on THIS forum to follow and post a link here for those of you who are sub'd to this thread and interested. And to also provide some information I have found along the way, for anyone who may also decide to move into saltwater reef keeping.

:)

[IW17]

Bare bottom is a great idea. If I had it to do all over, this is what I'd do. Not quite as pleasing to the eye, but makes maintenance so much easier. Plus if your doing corals it really helps keep your nitrates and such down.

[swolek]

I've always done bare bottom OR deep sand bed. There's no good way to do it in between IMO. DSB can result in nitrate reduction if it's deep enough and mature enough to have anaerobic areas. Bare bottom, on the other hand, also results in less nitrates because it's soo easy to vacuum. Both work well :).

[psychocircus]

I have a sand bed of normal depth and have no issues with nitrates.
Also you don't have to seed your base rock with live rock, but it may help speed up the process a bit.

[dbank999]

The problem that I have seen with DSB's from other people's experience, is that over time levels of nitrates and phosphates collect and become saturated in the sand. This is because Tugor is barely effective with the limited surface area to expell the NO3s and PO4s
..
The sand only has one surface to release these back into the water column, whereas live rock has an exponentially higher amount of surface area, when compared pound for pound.

Eventually, (seems to be about 6-8 years of no problems) the DSB fails and needs to be replaced or thoroughly overhauled. When disturbing the sand, EVERYTHING is released back into the water.

There's a lot more information touched upon in this thread below "Reefkeeping made easy - what was not explained"

Reefkeeping made easy- what was not explained. - The Reef Tank (http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/reefkeeping-made-easy-what-was-not-explained-160389.html?highlight=reef+keeping+made+easy)

Great read - classroom style discussions with great information on Nitrates, Phosphates, and sand beds

I would be going BB, but I really want the sand-sifters such as gobies

[dbank999]

I have a sand bed of normal depth and have no issues with nitrates.
Also you don't have to seed your base rock with live rock, but it may help speed up the process a bit.


Yeah, I was hoping for the expediated process with seeding the base rock. Even though I know I'm looking at few months before I have a stable environment lol

[swolek]

The problem that I have seen with DSB's from other people's experience, is that over time levels of nitrates and phosphates collect and become saturated in the sand. This is because Tugor is barely effective with the limited surface area to expell the NO3s and PO4s
..
The sand only has one surface to release these back into the water column, whereas live rock has an exponentially higher amount of surface area, when compared pound for pound.

Eventually, (seems to be about 6-8 years of no problems) the DSB fails and needs to be replaced or thoroughly overhauled. When disturbing the sand, EVERYTHING is released back into the water.

There's a lot more information touched upon in this thread below "Reefkeeping made easy - what was not explained"

Reefkeeping made easy- what was not explained. - The Reef Tank (http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/reefkeeping-made-easy-what-was-not-explained-160389.html?highlight=reef+keeping+made+easy)

Great read - classroom style discussions with great information on Nitrates, Phosphates, and sand beds

I would be going BB, but I really want the sand-sifters such as gobies

Not sure how long it takes a DSB to do that but mine went 6-7 years with no problems :).

[dbank999]

Not sure how long it takes a DSB to do that but mine went 6-7 years with no problems :).

It really would depend on the bioload in your set-up, how frequently you do water changes, how much the soil is disrupted, etc.. You may go the whole life of the tank without having any DSB issues arise, just a lot of other people are not so lucky apparently lol

Anyway, I went with sand... just running a powerhead with a heater ATM, base rock will be in tomorrow. Started the journey, and pretty excited to be getting into this hobby :D

[dbank999]

If anyone wants to follow along..

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/aquatic-forum/104569-55-gallon-reef-tank.html