Your view of the reptile hobby

[Mikoh4792]

What is your view on the reptile hobby as of now? What are some changes that would make it "better" in your opinion? In what direction would you like to see this hobby go?

[athms]

Ball pythons,leopard geckos,corn snakes,bearded dragons,crested geckos is all people are buying and selling for money. 95% of videos i watch is of a 8 year old that has bought a leopard gecko and is going to start breeding them and i always think "wow your going to make lots of money cause not like your going up against giant breeders". Here is the reptile community.

In it for money-85%
Want to show off-5%
In it for the animals-10%

Why don't people try making morphs of other animals? Like tiger salamanders or green anoles other wise were just going to be stuck in the same cycle.

[smy_749]

Ball pythons,leopard geckos,corn snakes,bearded dragons,crested geckos is all people are buying and selling for money. 95% of videos i watch is of a 8 year old that has bought a leopard gecko and is going to start breeding them and i always think "wow your going to make lots of money cause not like your going up against giant breeders". Here is the reptile community.

In it for money-85%
Want to show off-5%
In it for the animals-10%

Why don't people try making morphs of other animals? Like tiger salamanders or green anoles other wise were just going to be stuck in the same cycle.


This is pretty accurate.

You can divide the 10% that are "In it for the animals" to 8% uneducated on proper husbandry, and thinking their reptiles love them and love to dress up for halloween and sleep on their laps. 2% can say the scientific name of whats in their collection, and tell you some interesting facts.

[psychocircus]

It's hard to make any realistic changes because like you said, it's about the money.

The best companies are the ones that ask you questions such as your husbandry plans, but I understand why large scale companies may struggle to do this. Regardless young keepers and uneducated keepers will continue to buy from big time reptile "warehouses" and pet stores.

I think there are benefits to the select few species that are common to have morphs.
The morphs are usually expensive and sought after. This will typically lead to their better care.

I will most likely never breed any animals. I just try to buy from responsible companies, and give advice when it's asked for.

[athms]

This is pretty accurate.

You can divide the 10% that are "In it for the animals" to 8% uneducated on proper husbandry, and thinking their reptiles love them and love to dress up for halloween and sleep on their laps. 2% can say the scientific name of whats in their collection, and tell you some interesting facts.

Thanks i guess im in that 2% :)

[CosmicOwl]

Ball pythons,leopard geckos,corn snakes,bearded dragons,crested geckos is all people are buying and selling for money. 95% of videos i watch is of a 8 year old that has bought a leopard gecko and is going to start breeding them and i always think "wow your going to make lots of money cause not like your going up against giant breeders". Here is the reptile community.

In it for money-85%
Want to show off-5%
In it for the animals-10%

Why don't people try making morphs of other animals? Like tiger salamanders or green anoles other wise were just going to be stuck in the same cycle.

There just isn't a demand for morphs of other animals. There are a ton of Black/Texas rat snake morphs that you can easily buy for 40-50 dollars. My Grey rat snake was 35 dollars. Even if I bought one from a small breeder who specializes in North American rat snakes, it would have still only cost around 50-90 bucks. Ball Python morph easily start off at 200-400 dollars. People want the BP morphs because they're expensive and they're expensive because people want them. The only people buying lesser known reptiles are the people who genuinely like them.

Personallly, if there were one thing I could change, I'd like to see people stop treating snakes like pokemon. I think the reptile community is the only one that condones, if not encourages animals hoarding. How many times do we have to hear Tommy with 200 snakes say that it's okay to keep adult corn snakes in shoe boxes because "they like small spaces"? That isn't healthy for animals or the keepers.

[athms]

There just isn't a demand for morphs of other animals. There are a ton of Black/Texas rat snake morphs that you can easily buy for 40-50 dollars. My Grey rat snake was 35 dollars. Even if I bought one from a small breeder who specializes in North American rat snakes, it would have still only cost around 50-90 bucks. Ball Python morph easily start off at 200-400 dollars. People want the BP morphs because they're expensive and they're expensive because people want them. The only people buying lesser known reptiles are the people who genuinely like them.

Personallly, if there were one thing I could change, I'd like to see people stop treating snakes like pokemon. I think the reptile community is the only one that condones, if not encourages animals hoarding. How many times do we have to hear Tommy with 200 snakes say that it's okay to keep adult corn snakes in shoe boxes because "they like small spaces"? That isn't healthy for animals or the keepers.

Right on:):):)

[kwhitlock]

I get tired of the crazes. At least with the ball pythons holy cow. Dont get me wrong, I love that they are the economy of the reptile trade right now, and I think they are beautiful animals. But honestly when you go to a show, and 90% of the herps there are ball pythons, it shows that most are just there for the money. I honestly like going for the other animals, the skinks, moniters, tree boas, and the colubrids. I will check out a colubrid or a boa any day of the week over a ball. Ill own a ball python one day but honestly lets get some variety back into things..

But also I agree with cosmic. The motto for snakes shouldnt be gotta catch em' all. How about we breed for the fun of it, to learn something..

[Mikoh4792]

I get tired of the crazes. At least with the ball pythons holy cow. Dont get me wrong, I love that they are the economy of the reptile trade right now, and I think they are beautiful animals. But honestly when you go to a show, and 90% of the herps there are ball pythons, it shows that most are just there for the money. I honestly like going for the other animals, the skinks, moniters, tree boas, and the colubrids. I will check out a colubrid or a boa any day of the week over a ball. Ill own a ball python one day but honestly lets get some variety back into things..

But also I agree with cosmic. The motto for snakes shouldnt be gotta catch em' all. How about we breed for the fun of it, to learn something..

Ball pythons at expos are like collectors items. Oh look! a new and shiny toy! Same with non-locale morph boas.

If I ever get a ball python I'm owning a normal one.

[Lankyrob]

The best thing that can change in my opinion is for people to start respecting the laws and not keeping/importing illegal animals as well as not taking anymore specimens from the wild.

You may not agree with the laws of the land but you can always move!

[Skits]

I don't like the fact that people are keeping reptiles and showing them off in improper enclosures, and who are extremely close minded in thinking they know what they are doing because someone, or the pet store, or the website they read once said so and so. Or those who think it's "cool", and "badass" to own reptiles or arachnids, and end up keeping them in horrible conditions and not knowing a damn thing about them other than "they eat rats".

I might not know most of the scientific names to all the reptiles I own, but I always want to learn about them and I do what I can to give them the best care I could provide them with. If I can't provide an animal with what they need or more, I don't get it. Simple as that. Since owning my first gecko seven years ago, reptiles are my life and I can't imagine not continuously reading up on them and devoting all my time into my guys.

I also can respect my animals. I don't need my water monitor to be a cuddle buddy so I can walk around and show him off, or my ball python to be some thousand dollar morph. I respect my animals for what they are, and I'll take my healthy pissy monitor over an overweight dying lizard who loves attention any day. If I'm to get an animal, it's not to show it off, but because I like it, because I want to experience the species, and I want to learn more about them.

I also never want to breed my guys for money, and I definitely don't own reptiles for the money. Hell - my reptiles own my money haha. If I was to ever breed, it would be for the sole purpose of trying to produce something amazing. I've thought of breeding my leopard geckos before, or maybe some corns or something, but I think about it hard and realize there's enough of the species as it is and won't do it.

[kwhitlock]

Ball pythons at expos are like collectors items. Oh look! a new and shiny toy! Same with non-locale morph boas.

If I ever get a ball python I'm owning a normal one.

Same. Either that or an albino. Simple.

Don't get me wrong, there are some amazing looking morhps, but there's no way in hell I'm paying $1000+ for it.

And Lankyrob I also agree with that statement!

[StudentoReptile]

Quite simply, despite what a passionate, vocal minority on forums may say, the hobby is driven by money, which leads to greed, which leads to misinformation.

People get on the internet or go to shows and see all these wacky mutations with outrageous price tags, they think it is a get-rich-quick scheme, then they get into the hobby for all the wring reasons, make wrong decisions, often the animals suffer, then they realize the market for these animals is often a facade and not what they imagined, and by golly, there is actual work involved. Also, there is by-product, and we're getting to the level of cats & dogs. For a longer version of this rant, see my blog posting here. (http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/paradigm-required/)

And that is not all...in the meantime, given this new "hobby" we have where everyone is breeding, and few people keep their animals for longer than a few years. In decades past, reptiles were fairly easy captives and we had few issues with them; most people kept them in wooden enclosures and how often did we hear abotu URIs?. But now, I think we have created problems (some of which are on a larger scale than just genetic mutation quirks), and we are told we have to offer more UV lighting and vitamin supplements, and cricket dust, etc, etc. For more on that, click here. (http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/take-a-pill/) You may want to do some research on nitrate fixation and mycelium, to get a better grasp on that issue.

----
Changes and direction for the future? I dunno...getting people to stop focusing on money and greed is a tough obstacle. People think they are being noble, and supporting USARK and organizations like that, but look at most of the big name supporters: just big breeders trying protect their so-called "right" to keep snake in plastic tubs....all so all of everything I described above can continue to go on. Its not a pet store problem, because they just sell what the supply companies tell them to: Exo Terra, ZooMed, Zilla, all of them. Its like anything else in the world. WE are the product, and whatever issue problem breeders come up with and these reptile companies figure out a solution that hobbyists can walk into a store and purchase out of a box, and make money off of....that keeps things going. And many of these products have shown longterm that they are detrimental to the health of herps, not helpful.

[Mikoh4792]

Quite simply, despite what a passionate, vocal minority on forums may say, the hobby is driven by money, which leads to greed, which leads to misinformation.

People get on the internet or go to shows and see all these wacky mutations with outrageous price tags, they think it is a get-rich-quick scheme, then they get into the hobby for all the wring reasons, make wrong decisions, often the animals suffer, then they realize the market for these animals is often a facade and not what they imagined, and by golly, there is actual work involved. Also, there is by-product, and we're getting to the level of cats & dogs. For a longer version of this rant, see my blog posting here. (http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/paradigm-required/)

And that is not all...in the meantime, given this new "hobby" we have where everyone is breeding, and few people keep their animals for longer than a few years. In decades past, reptiles were fairly easy captives and we had few issues with them; most people kept them in wooden enclosures and how often did we hear abotu URIs?. But now, I think we have created problems (some of which are on a larger scale than just genetic mutation quirks), and we are told we have to offer more UV lighting and vitamin supplements, and cricket dust, etc, etc. For more on that, click here. (http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/take-a-pill/) You may want to do some research on nitrate fixation and mycelium, to get a better grasp on that issue.

----
Changes and direction for the future? I dunno...getting people to stop focusing on money and greed is a tough obstacle. People think they are being noble, and supporting USARK and organizations like that, but look at most of the big name supporters: just big breeders trying protect their so-called "right" to keep snake in plastic tubs....all so all of everything I described above can continue to go on. Its not a pet store problem, because they just sell what the supply companies tell them to: Exo Terra, ZooMed, Zilla, all of them. Its like anything else in the world. WE are the product, and whatever issue problem breeders come up with and these reptile companies figure out a solution that hobbyists can walk into a store and purchase out of a box, and make money off of....that keeps things going. And many of these products have shown longterm that they are detrimental to the health of herps, not helpful.

I agree with all of this. I understand the novelty of morphs and such, but isn't the fascination with reptiles supposed to be why they are the way they are in nature? To me a normal ball python is much more interesting than a $5000 morph ball. And I often see people commending big breeders for all the hard work they've done to achieve these multi-gene morphs. The way I see it is, the animals are the ones doing all the work, and going through all the stress of producing. All "we" are doing is 1+1=2.

[psychocircus]

I agree with all of this. I understand the novelty of morphs and such, but isn't the fascination with reptiles supposed to be why they are the way they are in nature? To me a normal ball python is much more interesting than a $5000 morph ball. And I often see people commending big breeders for all the hard work they've done to achieve these multi-gene morphs. The way I see it is, the animals are the ones doing all the work, and going through all the stress of producing. All "we" are doing is 1+1=2.

I agree, nature did it right.
That being said, I definitely understand people liking morphs. The issue is almost none of these people buying expensive morphs want them for pets and are most likely putting them right in a rack system and preparing to try to breed them.

[StudentoReptile]

I don't know what else to say as far as advice so here is what I do:
- I don't really "buy" herps anymore. I've been doing this so long, people know me often offer to give me stuff for free sooner or later, and if I don't want it, I find someone who does. I'm also on the board for a local reptile rescue so this helps.
- I educate the general public whenever possible.
- I apparently have a gene where I am unable to turn my brain off, much to my wife's dismay. I never stop learning and researching and doing creative things.
- I get out and field herp as much as possible. I feel this keeps me connected with my local herp fauna.
- I do what I can to conserve and protect that local herp fauna.
- I started a herp society that more or less promotes all of the above.

My biggest obstacle is not the general public, but the so-called "veteran" hobbyists (sometimes like myself) that think they already know it all, and don't wish to hear that a lot of what they are doing is incorrect, and the information they are promoting is also incorrect.

[formica]

What is your view on the reptile hobby as of now? What are some changes that would make it "better" in your opinion? In what direction would you like to see this hobby go?

good question! and not one that many are willing to ask!

There are several thing about caring for reptiles which I would like to see improved, for eg minimum enclosure sizes put into law, more of the tax (or additional tax) going to animal welfare groups and conservation efforts

I'd also like to see better dialog between animal rights/welfare groups and the reptile keeping community - there has been a stand off for far too long, with both sides insisting the other side does not have valid concerns, but imo, both sides need to change, including us as carers of captive reptiles

Over the last few years I have tried to stop using the word ''keeper'' and in place use the word, ''carer'', because to many people imo see reptiles as a disposable commodity, part of their Cool Factor, and many people looking from the outside, see a cruel pastime with little concern for the welfare of the animals - I am inclined to believe that those who truly care about the captive reptiles they 'own', are actually a minority, and this concerns me greatly.

If we do not progress, our hobby will not survive, and to be honest, although I will be sad if that day comes, I think the well being of the millions of captive reptiles around the world, is far more important than my own 'need' to care for captive reptiles privately.

[Mikoh4792]

good question! and not one that many are willing to ask!

There are several thing about caring for reptiles which I would like to see improved, for eg minimum enclosure sizes put into law, more of the tax (or additional tax) going to animal welfare groups and conservation efforts

I'd also like to see better dialog between animal rights/welfare groups and the reptile keeping community - there has been a stand off for far too long, with both sides insisting the other side does not have valid concerns, but imo, both sides need to change, including us as carers of captive reptiles

Over the last few years I have tried to stop using the word ''keeper'' and in place use the word, ''carer'', because to many people imo see reptiles as a disposable commodity, part of their Cool Factor, and many people looking from the outside, see a cruel pastime with little concern for the welfare of the animals - I am inclined to believe that those who truly care about the captive reptiles they 'own', are actually a minority, and this concerns me greatly.

If we do not progress, our hobby will not survive, and to be honest, although I will be sad if that day comes, I think the well being of the millions of captive reptiles around the world, is far more important than my own 'need' to care for captive reptiles privately.

Very well said, some points I haven't exactly thought about before.

What are some examples of the minimum enclosures sizes you would put into law if it were up to you?(as a hypothetical, I just want to see where you are going with this)

[formica]

Very well said, some points I haven't exactly thought about before.

What are some examples of the minimum enclosures sizes you would put into law if you had the power?(as a hypothetical, I just want to see where you are going with this)

for eg in Holland, they have a minimum size in law, Width = snake length, Height and Depth = 1/2 snake length

but, I think as a community we should go further than that, as some snakes require significantly more space than that, in order to have a high quality of life, and the ability to carry out all its natural behaviors

[Mikoh4792]

wow imagine that. I keep mainly carpets and they average out around 6 feet. That would be 6x3x3 for each adult. Pretty big and could make for an interesting setup.


Where would that put retic/burm/annie keepers? Would you say the law should apply to them as well?(ex. a 16ft burm needs to be housed in a 16x8x8)

[sharthun]

Very well said, and as student mentioned, I never stop trying to learn and educate when I have the opportunity. I also field herp to keep myself connected to nature. Unfortunately, as long as there is market for collectable morphs, we will have to ride out the waves.




good question! and not one that many are willing to ask!

There are several thing about caring for reptiles which I would like to see improved, for eg minimum enclosure sizes put into law, more of the tax (or additional tax) going to animal welfare groups and conservation efforts

I'd also like to see better dialog between animal rights/welfare groups and the reptile keeping community - there has been a stand off for far too long, with both sides insisting the other side does not have valid concerns, but imo, both sides need to change, including us as carers of captive reptiles

Over the last few years I have tried to stop using the word ''keeper'' and in place use the word, ''carer'', because to many people imo see reptiles as a disposable commodity, part of their Cool Factor, and many people looking from the outside, see a cruel pastime with little concern for the welfare of the animals - I am inclined to believe that those who truly care about the captive reptiles they 'own', are actually a minority, and this concerns me greatly.

If we do not progress, our hobby will not survive, and to be honest, although I will be sad if that day comes, I think the well being of the millions of captive reptiles around the world, is far more important than my own 'need' to care for captive reptiles privately.

[Jim Smith]

To tell you the truth, I was really uncertain what to expect in the responses to this very interesting question. I must say, I've very impressed with the thoughtful and honest responses. I suspect that with people thinking at this level of maturity and consideration that the hobby with be just fine. Sure there are some meatheads out there that garner all the press when they do something incredibly stupid or cruel, but there are also people like those who have responded to this question so far that will help turn the tide through education and responsible animal husbandry. I think that the responses to this thread will also serve to educate some of the people here on sSNAKESs that perhaps have not yet reached the same level of professionalism yet. Excellent thread.

[Pareeeee]

I'm only in the hobby because I love snakes. I don't see myself breeding in the near future.

What would I change? One would be pet shops. 9.5 out of 10 pet shop owners and/or employees know absolutely ZIP about reptiles. Pet stores are one of the few businesses I know of where you don't need to know how to do the job in order to get it. They know nothing about the animals or products they're selling. Ask a pet store employee what you need for a reptile? They will show you heat rocks, moisture-sucking light fixtures, tiny enclosures, pine and cedar bedding, etc.

This is a HUGE thing I would change about the reptile hobby. There would be a lot fewer reptiles being kept under poor conditions if pet stores educated their employees, and started selling the right product for the right animal. Most newbies will ask pet store employees for advice. I mean, it makes sense, they sell the animals so why wouldn't they know how to look after them?

I think there should be an actual animal 'handbook' that all pet stores must have. All animals listed alphabetically, with housing requirements, food, etc. Employees must consult this handbook before selling said animal.

[Aaron_S]

Ball pythons,leopard geckos,corn snakes,bearded dragons,crested geckos is all people are buying and selling for money. 95% of videos i watch is of a 8 year old that has bought a leopard gecko and is going to start breeding them and i always think "wow your going to make lots of money cause not like your going up against giant breeders". Here is the reptile community.

In it for money-85%
Want to show off-5%
In it for the animals-10%

Why don't people try making morphs of other animals? Like tiger salamanders or green anoles other wise were just going to be stuck in the same cycle.

I haven't read all the posts but this is pretty judgmental.

You apparently know EVERYONE in the reptile and hobby and why they breed. Right it's ALL about money. Get off your high horse and actually talk to those people instead of thinking you know why they do what they do.

People ALWAYS claim the hobby is so negative but what you see online is a FRACTION of the true hobby so climb out of the hole you're in and go live the hobby. Be apart of it instead of talking down to those that you know nothing about.

By the way, you can't breed morphs for just any species until they are brought in to captivity. Go hunt for some anoles and when you find an albino or axanthic or a purple one go and breed it. Don't just tell others how to live THEIR hobby by YOUR standards.

Asshat.

[athms]

I haven't read all the posts but this is pretty judgmental.

You apparently know EVERYONE in the reptile and hobby and why they breed. Right it's ALL about money. Get off your high horse and actually talk to those people instead of thinking you know why they do what they do.

People ALWAYS claim the hobby is so negative but what you see online is a FRACTION of the true hobby so climb out of the hole you're in and go live the hobby. Be apart of it instead of talking down to those that you know nothing about.

By the way, you can't breed morphs for just any species until they are brought in to captivity. Go hunt for some anoles and when you find an albino or axanthic or a purple one go and breed it. Don't just tell others how to live THEIR hobby by YOUR standards.

Asshat.

Well yes i have met every single person who has ever owned a reptile and i take pride in that:D. And if i fell off my high horse i would never hit the ground. And their are a certain few people who have successfully breed tiger salamanders on caudata fourm.

[athms]

I haven't read all the posts but this is pretty judgmental.

You apparently know EVERYONE in the reptile and hobby and why they breed. Right it's ALL about money. Get off your high horse and actually talk to those people instead of thinking you know why they do what they do.

People ALWAYS claim the hobby is so negative but what you see online is a FRACTION of the true hobby so climb out of the hole you're in and go live the hobby. Be apart of it instead of talking down to those that you know nothing about.

By the way, you can't breed morphs for just any species until they are brought in to captivity. Go hunt for some anoles and when you find an albino or axanthic or a purple one go and breed it. Don't just tell others how to live THEIR hobby by YOUR standards.

Asshat.

OOO yeah and anoles dont live were i am so i guess i will be looking for a long time but you probably knew that since your a expert

[Sharlynn93]

Saying that all of us just use our animals as basically status symbols is insulting...if we didn't care about them, why are we here trying to get more information about keeping them healthy and "happy"? I very much enjoy reading everything I can on my snakes, and take great pride in them...I love educating others about these misunderstood animals and have changed quite a few peoples opinions on them...even had a few people overcome their biggest fears by holding my snakes. I love them all and make sure I do everything I can to ensure they have what they need...

[Aaron_S]

Well yes i have met every single person who has ever owned a reptile and i take pride in that:D. And if i fell off my high horse i would never hit the ground. And their are a certain few people who have successfully breed tiger salamanders on caudata fourm.

I never said tiger salamanders can't be bred. Go and read what I wrote. I said you can't just pick any species to breed for morphs because they are uncommon.

You need to have morphs appear before it happens.

My point is simple. It's fine to dislike a part of the hobby. I don't care because it doesn't affect my enjoyment.
It's just really disrespectful and rude to say it's a bad part of the hobby just because you don't like it.

[Aaron_S]

OOO yeah and anoles dont live were i am so i guess i will be looking for a long time but you probably knew that since your a expert

Go find them where they are. Go travel and experience the hobby.

I am an expert. Thanks for noticing.

One day. When you eat all your wheaties and grow big and strong you can carry my snake hook. Maybe.

[Mikoh4792]

Go find them where they are. Go travel and experience the hobby.

This I would like to do someday in the future. Australia would be my first choice(not really for the hobby but more for field herping and such...etc)

[StudentoReptile]

I know everyone wants to go to far off places for field herping and such, and I'm not denying there are some awesome species in other countries. But I think we take our native species in the USA for granted, and they are disappearing just as rapidly if we don't take steps to protect them. And we have some VERY cool species in our proverbial backyards.

[Mikoh4792]

I know everyone wants to go to far off places for field herping and such, and I'm not denying there are some awesome species in other countries. But I think we take our native species in the USA for granted, and they are disappearing just as rapidly if we don't take steps to protect them. And we have some VERY cool species in our proverbial backyards.

My favorite NA genus are the pantherophis ratsnakes hands down. Grey rats in particular.

But morelia spilota will always be number one in my heart. I first saw one on Steve Irwin's program about a decade ago, and became ecstatic to find out that you could actually keep one in captivity.

[StudentoReptile]

Yeah, my comment wasn't necessarily directed you personally, just that what you said inspired it. I know what you meant, and I'm not telling anyone never to travel at all! By all means, fill up that passport!

But I've been doing this for 20 yrs, I'm just now discovering how cool Nerodia and Agkistrodon are! A lot of people shun cottonmouths, and I love finding them in the field, and can't wait to own one.

[Mikoh4792]

Yeah, my comment wasn't necessarily directed you personally, just that what you said inspired it. I know what you meant, and I'm not telling anyone never to travel at all! By all means, fill up that passport!

But I've been doing this for 20 yrs, I'm just now discovering how cool Nerodia and Agkistrodon are! A lot of people shun cottonmouths, and I love finding them in the field, and can't wait to own one.

ah I forgot about watersnakes. I've never actually seen one in person, only in video. They do seem like they'd be an interesting species to keep in a semi-aquatic enclosure. What's your input on them?(in terms of husbandry)

[StudentoReptile]

ah I forgot about watersnakes. I've never actually seen one in person, only in video. They do seem like they'd be an interesting species to keep in a semi-aquatic enclosure. What's your input on them?(in terms of husbandry)

Mine is awesome. Very easy, I feed him fish (no goldfish or minnows) and frogs. He is very attentive and active. Right now I keep him like most snakes, on wood chips with two hides, with just a very large water bowl I change often. But I do intend to set-up with a more naturalistic habitat with filter, etc.

[poison123]

Aaron, couldn't inbreeding create genetic birth defects (morphs)?

[Mikoh4792]

Aaron, couldn't inbreeding create genetic birth defects (morphs)?

Do you mean inbreeding in general? I think most reptiles are fine with inbreeding for several generations, as long as you outcross once in a while.

Some populations of snakes in captivity were started from one or two pairs(namely the insular and not so common locality boas)

[Aaron_S]

Aaron, couldn't inbreeding create genetic birth defects (morphs)?

First we need to understand how morphs happen.

They happen because there is a mutation in the genetics of the animal. We take these anomalies and see if they can be reproduced. If so then we market them.

I honestly can't answer with any certainty if inbreeding would increase the chances of it happening.

My personal opinion is that no it cannot. Considering the vast amount of morphs come from the wild population that it has nothing to do with inbreeding. It's just a "broken" animal on the genetic level.

[Aaron_S]

This I would like to do someday in the future. Australia would be my first choice(not really for the hobby but more for field herping and such...etc)

You do understand that field herping is a part of the hobby if you want it to be right?

It's the beautiful part about it all. Any part of it can be someone's preferred hobby and that's great! Whatever excites and drives someone's passion.

Your original question was loaded considering you weren't taking in all parts of what makes the "hobby" though.

[athms]

Go find them where they are. Go travel and experience the hobby.

I am an expert. Thanks for noticing.

One day. When you eat all your wheaties and grow big and strong you can carry my snake hook. Maybe.

First of all i eat cherrios not wheaties and are you going to ship that hook to me? Or how am i going to get it?

[athms]

I never said tiger salamanders can't be bred. Go and read what I wrote. I said you can't just pick any species to breed for morphs because they are uncommon.

You need to have morphs appear before it happens.

My point is simple. It's fine to dislike a part of the hobby. I don't care because it doesn't affect my enjoyment.
It's just really disrespectful and rude to say it's a bad part of the hobby just because you don't like it.

Yeah but you need to start somewhere

[CosmicOwl]

I think it's somewhat silly to pretend that a lot of people aren't getting into snakes for the purpose of breeding them. How often do you run into some 12 year old who has a normal and an amelanistic corn snake and is "working on a breeding project." They probably aren't doing it the money, but they watch SnakebytesTV, or read about the the big breeders and think it's an easy job.
There are plenty of people who are just in the hobby for the snakes, but there are also a lot of people in it for money or attention. The later two are the ones that drive the industry. They're the people with 100 or more snakes, who are constantly buying, trading and breeding.

[formica]

I think it's somewhat silly to pretend that a lot of people aren't getting into snakes for the purpose of breeding them. How often do you run into some 12 year old who has a normal and an amelanistic corn snake and is "working on a breeding project." They probably aren't doing it the money, but they watch SnakebytesTV, or read about the the big breeders and think it's an easy job.
There are plenty of people who are just in the hobby for the snakes, but there are also a lot of people in it for money or attention. The later two are the ones that drive the industry. They're the people with 100 or more snakes, who are constantly buying, trading and breeding.

its the same with all animals tbh, animal welfare/kennels/rescue centers are flooded with animals which have been bred by some ignorant soul thinking they can make a quick bit of cash, or a careless owner who didnt think that neutering/castration mattered, and people who dont bother to research breeding properly

Its a terrible shame, that so many animals lives are reduced to misery for the sake of human ignorance and greed.

[psychocircus]

its the same with all animals tbh, animal welfare/kennels/rescue centers are flooded with animals which have been bred by some ignorant soul thinking they can make a quick bit of cash, or a careless owner who didnt think that neutering/castration mattered, and people who dont bother to research breeding properly

Its a terrible shame, that so many animals lives are reduced to misery for the sake of human ignorance and greed.

I agree it happens with all animals. The problem is that to many reptiles are still seen as "disposable," many are cheap to purchase, and people are under the impression that a small reptile= a small, simple enclosure.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen anoles in terrible setups. I don't blame the "reptile trade," as much as I do the "pet trade"

[Tsubaki]

for eg in Holland, they have a minimum size in law, Width = snake length, Height and Depth = 1/2 snake length

but, I think as a community we should go further than that, as some snakes require significantly more space than that, in order to have a high quality of life, and the ability to carry out all its natural behaviors

*cough*Netherlands*cough* No we don't? Its a guideline from dutch reptile fora, and its more like Length+Depth = at least size of adult snakes length. I could keep a retic in a shoe box, as long as i feed it and provide water it's considered 'adequately cared for' There are barely any laws considering animal rights, they are almost seen as plain 'possessions' here. The few laws in animal rights we have, are very wobbly. The best we have is 'guidelines' which you are suggested to follow, but you are not obliged. (And i have only found those for mammals) Worst thing they can/will do if you really do something horrible is a slap on the wrist.

What i would like to see changed here? So many things..But ill stick to: i want more animal rights, and welfare laws.. In my country at least. The laws here are worthless, and instead of making better laws they just try to severely restrict / ban the hobby..:(

[formica]

*cough*Netherlands*cough* No we don't? Its a guideline from dutch reptile fora, and its more like Length+Depth = at least size of adult snakes length. I could keep a retic in a shoe box, as long as i feed it and provide water it's considered 'adequately cared for' There are barely any laws considering animal rights, they are almost seen as plain 'possessions' here. The few laws in animal rights we have, are very wobbly. The best we have is 'guidelines' which you are suggested to follow, but you are not obliged. (And i have only found those for mammals) Worst thing they can/will do if you really do something horrible is a slap on the wrist.

What i would like to see changed here? So many things..But ill stick to: i want more animal rights, and welfare laws.. In my country at least. The laws here are worthless, and instead of making better laws they just try to severely restrict / ban the hobby..:(

hmm perhaps its another EU country, will look it up tomorrow



offtopic - do you guys really not like the name Holland? whys that? never knew, its the common name we use, except formally

[robertjnovak59]

I'd like to see less emphasis on morphs and cheaper and better cages sold locally. Personally, I think some normals are better looking than the morphs. I think the hobby is in better shape than you'd think from scanning forums. I've met some really good people in the last few years that really care about their animals and have helped me a lot. It seems like a lot of the experienced keepers are more than happy to help.

[Aaron_S]

I think it's somewhat silly to pretend that a lot of people aren't getting into snakes for the purpose of breeding them. How often do you run into some 12 year old who has a normal and an amelanistic corn snake and is "working on a breeding project." They probably aren't doing it the money, but they watch SnakebytesTV, or read about the the big breeders and think it's an easy job.
There are plenty of people who are just in the hobby for the snakes, but there are also a lot of people in it for money or attention. The later two are the ones that drive the industry. They're the people with 100 or more snakes, who are constantly buying, trading and breeding.

I have been in this hobby for a really long time and I have yet to ever run into some 12 year old with a breeding project.

I do know it's predominant on the internet that people are seen getting into for breeding purposes but that's a minority to the amount of people in the actual hobby.

In fact this very forum is proof of such a fact. Very few people on this forum breed their animals or have goals of such to it.

[Aaron_S]

Yeah but you need to start somewhere

You make no sense.

[psychocircus]

I have been in this hobby for a really long time and I have yet to ever run into some 12 year old with a breeding project.

I do know it's predominant on the internet that people are seen getting into for breeding purposes but that's a minority to the amount of people in the actual hobby.

In fact this very forum is proof of such a fact. Very few people on this forum breed their animals or have goals of such to it.

I agree, but it is definitely more prevalent than it used to be. Unfortunately this is what the public and often beginners see.

[StudentoReptile]

Perhaps a lot of people aren't in it for the money, but they are not in it for "love of the animal" either. They just want a cool pet to show off. They are not interested in learning anything interesting about the animals they keep, or educating others or themselves. They are just interested in having a pet that scares in-laws or is fun to watch eat live prey.

So I will concur that not everyone is a breeder, and not everyone is in it for the money. But I will maintain that the majority of so-called "hobbyists" are more part of the problem than they are part of the solution.

[psychocircus]

Perhaps a lot of people aren't in it for the money, but they are not in it for "love of the animal" either. They just want a cool pet to show off. They are not interested in learning anything interesting about the animals they keep, or educating others or themselves. They are just interested in having a pet that scares in-laws or is fun to watch eat live prey.

So I will concur that not everyone is a breeder, and not everyone is in it for the money. But I will maintain that the majority of so-called "hobbyists" are more part of the problem than they are part of the solution.

agree with this as well. For every owner with a passion, there is at least one who has an alternative motive and/or doesn't provide proper care.

[CosmicOwl]

I have been in this hobby for a really long time and I have yet to ever run into some 12 year old with a breeding project.

I do know it's predominant on the internet that people are seen getting into for breeding purposes but that's a minority to the amount of people in the actual hobby.

In fact this very forum is proof of such a fact. Very few people on this forum breed their animals or have goals of such to it.

I doubt I've been in the hobby as long as you, but I still frequently see kids and/or new keepers talking about breeding. This site is the exception to the rule. Youtube and most other forums are full of people talking about breeding for the first time, or asking what kind of morphs they'll get if they breed X to Y.

What you're saying is probably true if we only consider the number of keepers compared to the number of people looking to breed snakes. The problem is that the majority of keepers will just have 1 or 2 snakes. Breeders or excessive collectors will have snakes numbering in the 10s or hundreds(much more if they have a large scale operation). They're the ones buying all of the new morphs and effecting the flow of supply and demand.

[athms]

You make no sense.

You need to start somewhere meaning they didn't just find a pied ball python or a anery kenyan sand boa.

[lady_bug87]

This thread is a pathetic excuse for you people to pat yourselves on your back like a dog who learned to scratch it's own belly.

1) want to see "different" animals at shows? Invest YOUR time and YOUR money and make it happen instead of passing the buck.

2) the person advertising 'breeding' plans today are selling their animals tomorrow. So relax.

3) no matter if you keep them in tubs or massive rooms nothing is quite like being free so stop with the elitist bullpoop of "I don't use bins I'm not one of those evil hoarding people." We're ALL those people so stuff it.

Lori OUT! <drops microphone>

[CosmicOwl]

This thread is a pathetic excuse for you people to pat yourselves on your back like a dog who learned to scratch it's own belly.

1) want to see "different" animals at shows? Invest YOUR time and YOUR money and make it happen instead of passing the buck.

2) the person advertising 'breeding' plans today are selling their animals tomorrow. So relax.

3) no matter if you keep them in tubs or massive rooms nothing is quite like being free so stop with the elitist bullpoop of "I don't use bins I'm not one of those evil hoarding people." We're ALL those people so stuff it.

Lori OUT! <drops microphone>

You can't be serious about number 3? That is some of the most backwards logic I have read in a while. It's not elitist to suggest that people should keep their animals in enclosures that provide them with space to move around and mental stimulation. None of us can truly emulate the conditions provided to snakes in the wild, but does that stop us from pointing out when somebody isn't providing the right husbandry for their animals?

[Mikoh4792]

You do understand that field herping is a part of the hobby if you want it to be right?

It's the beautiful part about it all. Any part of it can be someone's preferred hobby and that's great! Whatever excites and drives someone's passion.

Your original question was loaded considering you weren't taking in all parts of what makes the "hobby" though.

not exactly Aaron.

What is your view on the reptile hobby as of now? What are some changes that would make it "better" in your opinion? In what direction would you like to see this hobby go?

There is always room for improvement, I was just asking what would make it better, and which way would the people here like to see the hobby go. Not loaded at all, it's a neutral question.

Sure, my own views of the hobby may be biased and one-sided, but this thread isn't about just my view. I'm asking everyone to chime in.

[psychocircus]

This thread is a pathetic excuse for you people to pat yourselves on your back like a dog who learned to scratch it's own belly.

1) want to see "different" animals at shows? Invest YOUR time and YOUR money and make it happen instead of passing the buck.

2) the person advertising 'breeding' plans today are selling their animals tomorrow. So relax.

3) no matter if you keep them in tubs or massive rooms nothing is quite like being free so stop with the elitist bullpoop of "I don't use bins I'm not one of those evil hoarding people." We're ALL those people so stuff it.

Lori OUT! <drops microphone>

So it doesn't matter if an animal is in a small container or a large enclosure because "we're all those people" ?

[lady_bug87]

Yep! We're ALL selfish people. If we really cared more about the animals than we do about having something cool this hobby wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have zoos, or SeaWorld.

This hobby as others which keep exotics in captivity be it snakes or llamas is the exact same.

[lady_bug87]

You can't be serious about number 3? That is some of the most backwards logic I have read in a while. It's not elitist to suggest that people should keep their animals in enclosures that provide them with space to move around and mental stimulation. None of us can truly emulate the conditions provided to snakes in the wild, but does that stop us from pointing out when somebody isn't providing the right husbandry for their animals?

Fish tanks for ball pythons are better?

Poor husbandry and the use of tubs are 2 different things. I don't know what you keep and really I don't care if the answer is unicorns. You will never convince me that well sized tubs are detrimental to husbandry.

[CosmicOwl]

Fish tanks for ball pythons are better?

Poor husbandry and the use of tubs are 2 different things. I don't know what you keep and really I don't care if the answer is unicorns. You will never convince me that well sized tubs are detrimental to husbandry.

Well sized tubs are fine. Housing a ton of snakes in undersized tubs is a different story.

Keeping reptiles is a bit selfish, but that doesn't excuse extraordinarily selfish or neglectful behavior. We aren't hypocrites for calling out those who collect animals obsessively or don't care about providing them will a decent enclosure. It's called common sense.

Honestly, it seems like you're taking up a perspective of moral relativism just to be a contrarian.

[shaunyboy]

This thread is a pathetic excuse for you people to pat yourselves on your back like a dog who learned to scratch it's own belly.

1) want to see "different" animals at shows? Invest YOUR time and YOUR money and make it happen instead of passing the buck.

2) the person advertising 'breeding' plans today are selling their animals tomorrow. So relax.

3) no matter if you keep them in tubs or massive rooms nothing is quite like being free so stop with the elitist bullpoop of "I don't use bins I'm not one of those evil hoarding people." We're ALL those people so stuff it.

Lori OUT! <drops microphone>

^^^^^
NO where does she say small containers...

what she's saying is...

it don't matter if we are keeping them in the CORRECT SIZED tubs,vivariums,enclosures,or massive rooms...

there's NOTHING natural or right about keeping snakes in captivity

So it doesn't matter if an animal is in a small container or a large enclosure because "we're all those people" ?



Yep! We're ALL selfish people. If we really cared more about the animals than we do about having something cool this hobby wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have zoos, or SeaWorld.

This hobby as others which keep exotics in captivity be it snakes or llamas is the exact same.

again i agree.....

there's nothing natural about keeping wild animals in enclosures

anyone who keeps snakes is doing it for their own personal/selfish reasons,with the exception of people doing it for release back into the wild for re population



cheers shaun
cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

So let's just consider these statements for a second.

there's NOTHING natural or right about keeping snakes in captivity

no matter if you keep them in tubs or massive rooms nothing is quite like being free so stop with the elitist bullpoop of "I don't use bins I'm not one of those evil hoarding people." We're ALL those people so stuff it.

I'm going to be asking this neutrally, just want to know what you guys think.

Should we not keep reptiles anymore? If we know that this is not right, why don't we make it right by not keeping these reptiles anymore? Shouldn't we progress(by losing our selfishness) by doing what's "right" for the animal?

[lady_bug87]

Well sized tubs are fine. Housing a ton of snakes in undersized tubs is a different story.

Keeping reptiles is a bit selfish, but that doesn't excuse extraordinarily selfish or neglectful behavior. We aren't hypocrites for calling out those who collect animals obsessively or don't care about providing them will a decent enclosure. It's called common sense.

Honestly, it seems like you're taking up a perspective of moral relativism just to be a contrarian.

Listen to my mellifluously, competent monologue pigeon.... (see I know big words too!)

[lady_bug87]

So let's just consider these statements for a second.





I'm going to be asking this neutrally, just want to know what you guys think.

Should we not keep reptiles anymore? If we know that this is not right, why don't we make it right by not keeping these reptiles anymore? Shouldn't we progress(by losing our selfishness) by doing what's "right" for the animal?

No. Because at the end of the day we are greedy, self-absorbed prepubescents with God complexes. We will convince ourselves that we are using our animals for good. For education, conservation, passion, love, money. we turn the snake lights out and tuck ourselves into bed telling ourselves that we do a great thing. That our Hobby is a great thing.

and when we arent collecting and keeping them in appropriate sized boxes we're wiping out their wild populations and overtaking their habitats.

LAWS cant stop people, what makes you think morals will?

[psychocircus]

^^^^^
NO where does she say small containers...


cheers shaun


but that's the issue at hand in most of the complaints...
so yes it was implied

[Mikoh4792]

No. Because at the end of the day we are greedy, self-absorbed prepubescents with God complexes. We will convince ourselves that we are using our animals for good. For education, conservation, passion, love, money. we turn the snake lights out and tuck ourselves into bed telling ourselves that we do a great thing. That our Hobby is a great thing.

and when we arent collecting and keeping them in appropriate sized boxes we're wiping out their wild populations and overtaking their habitats.

LAWS cant stop people, what makes you think morals will?

How can you lump everyone into one group? Not everyone is a murderer, theif....etc even though there are people who kill and steal. Just like not everyone is greedy.

With that mindset should humans not even try to progress?(In anyway.... in terms of education, slavery, war....etc).

Sorry for broadening the topic to that^ but I guess in the end it comes down to what you generally believe about the world.

[psychocircus]

I will say this. I agree that some people need to step off their high horse and stop being elitists when it comes to animal care.
However, I don't think there is a real argument that some of the husbandry we witness in this hobby is atrocious. I don't always blame the individual. A lot of pet stores give terrible advice and there are also a lot of bad care sheets out there.
That being said, yes there is an obvious difference between an undersized fishtank/tub or a room sized enclosure. I can't see how that can be argued.

[CosmicOwl]

So let's just consider these statements for a second.





I'm going to be asking this neutrally, just want to know what you guys think.

Should we not keep reptiles anymore? If we know that this is not right, why don't we make it right by not keeping these reptiles anymore? Shouldn't we progress(by losing our selfishness) by doing what's "right" for the animal?

I think keeping captive bred animals in captivity is morally neutral. I don't think there is any harm in it if you're keeping the animal in a reasonably sized enclosure and providing them with the food and care that they need. If wild reptiles could crawl inside of a box and be kept warm and fed, they would. It beats having to roam, hunt for prey and avoid predators.

[lady_bug87]

I think keeping captive bred animals in captivity is morally neutral. I don't think there is any harm in it if you're keeping the animal in a reasonably sized enclosure and providing them with the food and care that they need. If wild reptiles could crawl inside of a box and be kept warm and fed, they would. It beats having to roam, hunt for prey and avoid predators.

And here we have a justification.

[Mikoh4792]

And here we have a justification.

It's not a justification. It's an assertion followed by a justification(latter part of his post).

Would you disagree with his post? If so why is keeping reptiles not neutral?

[KORBIN5895]

If I could change on thing about the hobby I would want everyone to buy from me and only me.

[Mikoh4792]

If I could change on thing about the hobby I would want everyone to buy from me and only me.

Wouldn't that be great

[LadyWraith]

What is your view on the reptile hobby as of now? From my own personal experience, I view the hobby as divided into categories:
1. Are the individuals that have done no independent research and use husbandry that is decades old that they acquired from Uncle Jim Bob that owned a free-roam Burm back in the early 80s. These are the animals you see for sale on CL. Most of the people in my area fall into this category.
2. Are the joe blows that purchase from pet stores and follow their advice. These people end up here and other forums looking for fixes to inappropriate husbandry.
3. Informed owners that have done research and understand proper husbandry.
4. Small scale breeders that really enjoy the hobby itself
5. Big time breeders.

What are some changes that would make it "better" in your opinion?
Education, period. Get the some 90% of reptile owners that acquire their animals through pet stores more informed about their animals. Most of these people have good intentions and buy from the pet store cause it's a PET store. A majority are probably not even aware there is a "hobby" per se. I know I didn't before becoming informed. These people would be more than willing to provide proper husbandry if educated. They want happy, healthy animals but have just fallen into the pit that is the pet trade.

In what direction would you like to see this hobby go?
One of greater societal understanding. It gets tiring answering the same questions from the general public "Do your snakes sleep in your bed?" "How do your snakes and dog get along?", when people seem to think we keep them like dogs... free roaming the house etc etc. It comes down to the fear of the unknown about our world. And it's not exactly painted in the best light by the media.

[lady_bug87]

It's not a justification. It's an assertion followed by a justification(latter part of his post).

Would you disagree with his post? If so why is keeping reptiles not neutral?

The idea of captive bred is a novelty. Just because it comes from a breeder and not the wild doesn't morally neutralize the act of keeping it. Its still an exotic animal.

So yes its a justification. Its using semantics to make a morally reprehensible act acceptable.

[Mikoh4792]

The idea of captive bred is a novelty. Just because it comes from a breeder and not the wild doesn't morally neutralize the act of keeping it. Its still an exotic animal.

So yes its a justification. Its using semantics to make a morally reprehensible act acceptable.

Why is keeping reptiles morally reprehensible? They are exotic animals, they aren't puppies and kittens, but why is it bad to keep them in captivity if it doesn't harm them?(by them i mean for an individual reptile being cared for "properly")

And also why do you keep them if it is morally reprehensible?

[CosmicOwl]

And here we have a justification.

Its the opposite, actually. I'm saying that I don't believe there are moral grounds to justify us all getting rid of our reptiles. For that to be true,the simple act of being in captivity would have to be harmful to the majority of reptiles. I don't believe that is the case. There are exceptions for some species that simply cannot be kept in captivity. They're too shy, get stressed too easily or required specialized diets. Either way, they end up dying. I think it is immoral to keep these species in captivity, because the owner is condemning the animal to die a slow and agonizing death.

I also mentioned captive bred animals for a reason. It's not that I think keeping CB animals somehow makes it better. In my opinion, it's immoral to remove animals from the wild because of the impact to the wild populations and to the environment. Not to mention, WC animals often endure a lot of stress in the process of being brought into captivity. By owning a captive bred animal, you aren't putting a strain on wild populations. It's really that simple.

[Aaron_S]

You need to start somewhere meaning they didn't just find a pied ball python or a anery kenyan sand boa.

Uhh you have NO clue on the history of this hobby.

That's EXACTLY how it happened and how it still happens today for the most part. Go read about the original albino ball python Bob Clark brought in. You can also read about the original pinstripe that BHB brought in, he talks about it on snakebytes too. Ralph Davis has his platinum ball python story up as well.

This isn't exclusive to balls either. Bob Clark talks about his original albino retic import too.

Very few instances of morphs popping up randomly in captivity.

Now go play in the kiddie pool while the adults converse.

[Aaron_S]

Why is keeping reptiles morally reprehensible? They are exotic animals, they aren't puppies and kittens, but why is it bad to keep them in captivity if it doesn't harm them?(by them i mean for an individual reptile being cared for "properly")

And also why do you keep them if it is morally reprehensible?

I want to respond to this too.

For me, I keep them because I want to. I know I'm selfish when I do it but I don't have a problem with that at all. I think that was kind of her point.

I don't want to put words into Lori's mouth but I think her point wasn't if keeping them was good or bad it's just that we're all the same so no one should have feeling of a higher status based on what they keep their animal in.

[Aaron_S]

Perhaps a lot of people aren't in it for the money, but they are not in it for "love of the animal" either. They just want a cool pet to show off. They are not interested in learning anything interesting about the animals they keep, or educating others or themselves. They are just interested in having a pet that scares in-laws or is fun to watch eat live prey.

So I will concur that not everyone is a breeder, and not everyone is in it for the money. But I will maintain that the majority of so-called "hobbyists" are more part of the problem than they are part of the solution.

I agree with this statement.

Why? There's a lot of people in this forum that will be gone from the hobby within the next 3 years. It happens time and time again.

I have seen the same type of people come tell the world how they love the animals and how they are in it for them and how they will keep them for life. Low and behold a few short years later and for one reason or another they no longer have all or any of the animals.

Sometimes it's a good reason but often it's not. They certainly didn't put the animals first or a priority.

I also know this because this hobby isn't too big and I can track some rarer animals through the shows and who has what. I have seen the same pair of geckos passed around a few times. Doesn't matter how rare or different....people change and go through it all.

Michael, this isn't aimed at you by the way I just thought your post was a good jump for my tangent lol.

[Aaron_S]

I agree, but it is definitely more prevalent than it used to be. Unfortunately this is what the public and often beginners see.

Yeah I'm attempting to carry 4 conversations within a thread at once apparently....

I agree it's more prevalent but let's look at a different angle.

The hobby has to evolve somehow. It's how we as humans are. We are egomaniacs. This hobby started out as how to properly keep the critters we choose. Once we got a really good handle on that we then said "hmm let's attempt to breed them!! That will prove how awesome I am at this."

So we did.

As time has gone on we literally have seen the landscape of the hobby change from people using rain chambers and entire room set ups to captive breed ball pythons (true story) all the way to bins and no temperature drop at all.
Does anyone believe that at one point ball pythons were considered an advanced species due to the problems people had acclimating them to captivity? Nobody thought they were remotely as easy to breed as they are today.

Things evolve and change. We're passed the stage of simply trying to figure out how to keep them alive and we're on to the next phase. I believe this plays a part in the prevalence of seeing more breeding take place. It isn't thought to be as difficult as it once was.

[lady_bug87]

Why is keeping reptiles morally reprehensible? They are exotic animals, they aren't puppies and kittens, but why is it bad to keep them in captivity if it doesn't harm them?(by them i mean for an individual reptile being cared for "properly")

And also why do you keep them if it is morally reprehensible?

Its morally reprehensible to keep any exotic. That includes zoos. Captivity has the propensity to harm exotics. Take for example Orca whales: in a documentary investigating the deaths of orca trainers at SeaWorld they proved that for these animals captivity is causing major issues. There is aggressive behavior, social anxiety etc, which is leading to human death. Perfect example of the lies we tell ourselves about captivity is that they went to a SeaWorld employees and asked basic questions and compared her answers with experts and the results were staggering. For example the employee was asked about life expectancy and she answered 25yrs (in the wild these animals easily hit 50). The other shocking question was about the collapsed dorsal fin. The employee was asked how prevalent dorsal fin collapse was she quoted 85-95% (in the wild dorsal fin collapse occurs less than 10%).

I keep reptiles because I legitimately love it, and I do it well. I'm selfish in doing so but its (as Aaron said) a selfish I can live with. I said it was morally reprehensible. I didn't say I didnt enjoy it.

Lots of things we do are morally reprehensible, its all about what you can live with.

[Mikoh4792]

Its morally reprehensible to keep any exotic. That includes zoos. Captivity has the propensity to harm exotics. Take for example Orca whales: in a documentary investigating the deaths of orca trainers at SeaWorld they proved that for these animals captivity is causing major issues. There is aggressive behavior, social anxiety etc, which is leading to human death. Perfect example of the lies we tell ourselves about captivity is that they went to a SeaWorld employees and asked basic questions and compared her answers with experts and the results were staggering. For example the employee was asked about life expectancy and she answered 25yrs (in the wild these animals easily hit 50). The other shocking question was about the collapsed dorsal fin. The employee was asked how prevalent dorsal fin collapse was she quoted 85-95% (in the wild dorsal fin collapse occurs less than 10%).

I keep reptiles because I legitimately love it, and I do it well. I'm selfish in doing so but its (as Aaron said) a selfish I can live with. I said it was morally reprehensible. I didn't say I didnt enjoy it.

Lots of things we do are morally reprehensible, its all about what you can live with.

Okay I see the point you are making, but what do you have to say about exotic animals that have longevity in captivity comparable to their wild counterparts?(ie. certain species of snakes, lizards...etc). I just ask this since you made a point about longevity.

Also if an animal is healthy and does not suffer in captivity, why is it morally reprehensible?

[kwhitlock]

Its morally reprehensible to keep any exotic. That includes zoos. Captivity has the propensity to harm exotics. Take for example Orca whales: in a documentary investigating the deaths of orca trainers at SeaWorld they proved that for these animals captivity is causing major issues. There is aggressive behavior, social anxiety etc, which is leading to human death. Perfect example of the lies we tell ourselves about captivity is that they went to a SeaWorld employees and asked basic questions and compared her answers with experts and the results were staggering. For example the employee was asked about life expectancy and she answered 25yrs (in the wild these animals easily hit 50). The other shocking question was about the collapsed dorsal fin. The employee was asked how prevalent dorsal fin collapse was she quoted 85-95% (in the wild dorsal fin collapse occurs less than 10%).


That is one of the best documentaries I have ever seen, and a great point about exotics. To me, an animal that size so should never be kept captive. But as a point about that. One of the main reasons that the pschyological issues occurred is because of cultural differences in the orca communication.

The part when the mom had the baby, and when they shipped it and the mother cried for her to come back, finding out that it was a search call she was making, tore me up.

Sorry to de-rail but I just needed to comment on that.

[Mikoh4792]

That is one of the best documentaries I have ever seen, and a great point about exotics. To me, an animal that size so should never be kept captive. But as a point about that. One of the main reasons that the pschyological issues occurred is because of cultural differences in the orca communication.

The part when the mom had the baby, and when they shipped it and the mother cried for her to come back, finding out that it was a search call she was making, tore me up.

Sorry to de-rail but I just needed to comment on that.

its a public thread! no such thing as derailing as long as you're sincere lol. I'll take a look at that documentary as well.

[kwhitlock]

its a public thread! no such thing as derailing as long as you're sincere lol. I'll take a look at that documentary as well.

If you have Netflix mikoh, it's on there. I believe it's called blackfish or dark fish. It's one of the two! You can't miss it, only thing I've seen on Netflix with the cover just being an orca.

[lady_bug87]

Okay I see the point you are making, but what do you have to say about exotic animals that have longevity in captivity comparable to their wild counterparts?(ie. certain species of snakes, lizards...etc). I just ask this since you made a point about longevity.

Also if an animal is healthy and does not suffer in captivity, why is it morally reprehensible?

Because longevity as a species is subjective. In the case of snakes and lizards, Nature weeds out the population. There are predators, parasites, harsh conditions, drought etc. Animals travel genetic variability is ensured in healthy populations. Weaker, less genetically sound specimens don't make it to breed.

In captivity we inbreed, we assist feed, we eliminate the natural weed-out process. What's left are animals that may live longer than they would in the wild but as a species they're weaker.

[TheFrogman]

My thoughts are short and simple, I always had Frogs, 10 or so different species. I never wanted a snake or thought about it.

I saw a baby High White Reverse Okeetee in a Mom n Pop store and thought it was pretyy so I bought it.

Now 5 1/2 months later, Im addicted, I have 4 and shopping for more.

[Mikoh4792]

Because longevity as a species is subjective. In the case of snakes and lizards, Nature weeds out the population. There are predators, parasites, harsh conditions, drought etc. Animals travel genetic variability is ensured in healthy populations. Weaker, less genetically sound specimens don't make it to breed.

In captivity we inbreed, we assist feed, we eliminate the natural weed-out process. What's left are animals that may live longer than they would in the wild but as a species they're weaker.

Weakness is also subjective. They may be weak to their native environment, but if they can live long in captivity(captivity being the new environment) then are they still weak? And if they are able to live long and healthy lives in captivity, is it still morally reprehensible and if so why?

How do you feel about humans nurturing the weak(handi-caps, disabled...etc)?

[StudentoReptile]

Weakness is also subjective. They may be weak to their native environment, but if they can live long in captivity(captivity being the new environment) then are they still weak? And if they are able to live long and healthy lives in captivity, is it still morally reprehensible and if so why?

How do you feel about humans nurturing the weak(handi-caps, disabled...etc)?

We're not talking about humans, we're talking about snakes. But since you brought it up....

Say you use the argument, a person with a terminal genetic condition since they were say, 60 was put on life support and lived to be 90. They are still weak. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense or insulting, just simple fact. That someone stepped in and hooked them to a life support machine, comes helps them use the restroom and brings them their food, etc, is irrelevant. That person is still weak compared to a "normal" person with normal health parameters.

Same with snakes. Sure a super-duper high-white abino cinnammin neon nut-crunch ball python can live for decades in a plastic tub being assist-fed every week, because of its head wobble....but you plop it in the African savannah and I'm telling you it is genetically weaker than a normal BP.

Same with dogs. You plop a healthy Golden retriever in the Pacific Northwest, and in a few months, you will have a thin, malnourished canine barely etching out an existence if it has not already succumbed to predators, disease, parasites or starvation. It is a domesticated animal that has become too dependent on human intervention. That is why wolves shun human contact (usually) and dogs thrive upon it (even stray/feral ones).

[Mikoh4792]

We're not talking about humans, we're talking about snakes. But since you brought it up....

Say you use the argument, a person with a terminal genetic condition since they were say, 60 was put on life support and lived to be 90. They are still weak. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense or insulting, just simple fact. That someone stepped in and hooked them to a life support machine, comes helps them use the restroom and brings them their food, etc, is irrelevant. That person is still weak compared to a "normal" person with normal health parameters.

Same with snakes. Sure a super-duper high-white abino cinnammin neon nut-crunch ball python can live for decades in a plastic tub being assist-fed every week, because of its head wobble....but you plop it in the African savannah and I'm telling you it is genetically weaker than a normal BP.

Same with dogs. You plop a healthy Golden retriever in the Pacific Northwest, and in a few months, you will have a thin, malnourished canine barely etching out an existence if it has not already succumbed to predators, disease, parasites or starvation. It is a domesticated animal that has become too dependent on human intervention. That is why wolves shun human contact (usually) and dogs thrive upon it (even stray/feral ones).


I'm not talking about snakes that need support such as being assist fed, nor am I talking about snakes with noticeable handi-caps. How weak do you want to go?

So would you say that owning dogs is also morally reprehensible since they are genetically weaker than wolves? Dogs seem to do well under the right care, and so do reptiles.

[Mikoh4792]

By the way my question on humans was not part of the argument. I was just interested in her opinion on the separate subject of humans. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was using that question as a part of my argument.

[StudentoReptile]

I'm not talking about snakes that need support such as being assist fed, nor am I talking about snakes with noticeable handi-caps. How weak do you want to go?

So would you say that owning dogs is also morally reprehensible since they are genetically weaker than wolves? Dogs seem to do well under the right care, and so do reptiles.

Its somewhat of a loaded question.

I think it is morally reprehensible to continue breeding animals when A) we are aware of the genetic issues and/or B) do it anyway for monetary gain.

I do not think it is morally reprehensible to care for such animals. Ex: adopting said animal from someone else as a pet, or from a rescue, with no intention of breeding.

I replied the way I did, because you asked the question: They may be weak to their native environment, but if they can live long in captivity(captivity being the new environment) then are they still weak?

The answer is no. They are weak in whatever environment they are. The environment is what is changes. Now, one could make the argument that if husbandry changes for the better, the individual animal improves to a state which makes it stronger.

[Mikoh4792]

So I don't understand, are we not on the same page?

I too believe it's wrong to breed/support the breeding of obviously genetically weak animals such as jaguar carpets, ball pythons with wobble issues...etc.

But I was originally asking Lady_bug why it was morally reprehensible to keep reptiles, nothing more than that.

[Mikoh4792]

So again, why is it morally reprehensible to keep reptiles if they seem to be able to live long lives and are "properly" cared for so long as husbandry keeps progressing as our knowledge on these animals grow?

[StudentoReptile]

So again, why is it morally reprehensible to keep reptiles if they seem to be able to live long lives and are "properly" cared for so long as husbandry keeps progressing as our knowledge on these animals grow?

If that is in fact the truth, then it is not reprehensible (can we just use the word "wrong" - I'm tired of typing out reprehensible!).

But here's a question for you....how many hobbyists keep their animals the entire duration of their lives? I know very few. We all have noble intentions, but interests wane, finances drain, our human lives change, etc....how many of us can say that we have kept __ animal its entire life?

Why is that question relevant? We say all these genetic mutations live long, healthy lives, but how many times do they change hands? I'm not saying there aren't some long-lived morphs out there, but...I've had my normal BP for 22 yrs and counting. I'm not asking for a show of hands (that can be a different thread) but just ask yourselves (especially those who breed).

[Mikoh4792]

I do not disagree with anything you just said and we are on the same page.

Just wanted lady_bug to tell me why keeping a reptile is morally reprehensible, without extra assumptions(of breeding genetically weak animals, assist feeding the weak, and in the case of your post, being passed around a lot..etc). It's a pure question " Why is keeping reptiles morally reprehensible?"

[CosmicOwl]

The comparison to killer whales is really silly. They're extremely intelligent and they also have deep emotional bonds with their family members that are often violently shattered when these parks move whales around. They also naturally roam over thousands of square miles of ocean, and the tanks most parks keep them in are the equivalent of snake rack systems[in terms of size]. Often times the parks will store multiple unrelated whales in the same small holding tanks at night, which causes stress and fighting.

There are just no valid parallels between keeping killer whales and reptiles.

[Mikoh4792]

The comparison to killer whales is really silly. They're extremely intelligent and they also have deep emotional bonds with their family members that are often violently shattered when these parks move whales around. They also naturally roam over thousands of square miles of ocean, and the tanks most parks keep them in are the equivalent of snake rack systems. Often times the parks will store multiple unrelated whales in the same small holding tanks at night, which causes stress and fighting.

There are just no valid parallels between keeping killer whales and reptiles.

Don't meant to degrade your post, but I would say snake racks are not even comparable to keeping killer whales in those parks. Keeping snakes in racks has no where near the negative impact on the animal as keeping killer whales in those parks. Just want to exaggerate that point.

[CosmicOwl]

Don't meant to degrade your post, but I would say snake racks are not even comparable to keeping killer whales in those parks. Keeping snakes in racks has no where near the negative impact on the animal as keeping killer whales in those parks. Just want to exaggerate that point.

I meant that they were similar in size. It's obviously much more traumatic for killer whales.

[Mikoh4792]

I meant that they were similar in size. It's obviously much more traumatic for killer whales.

Yes I know what you meant, I just wanted to exaggerate the difference between the two.

[lady_bug87]

Weakness is also subjective. They may be weak to their native environment, but if they can live long in captivity(captivity being the new environment) then are they still weak? And if they are able to live long and healthy lives in captivity, is it still morally reprehensible and if so why?

How do you feel about humans nurturing the weak(handi-caps, disabled...etc)?

Genetic weakness is determined by physical attributes that affect the way they live and reproduce. Each generation that gets produced becomes weaker unless outcrossed properly. Clutch sizes drop, hatch rate suffers, birth defects increase etc. You may not see it in F2- F4 but it does happen, its a proven fact that once genetic variation decreases so does the genetic stability. In fact there are pieds that do not produce viable clutches since they have been so imbed. I would consider them genetically weak. No matter the environment.

I find the human question insulting.

By the way my question on humans was not part of the argument. I was just interested in her opinion on the separate subject of humans. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was using that question as a part of my argument.

I'm a caregiver to elderly grandparents and before my son came along I worked as a social worker in geriatrics and palliative care..

Apologize when ready.

The comparison to killer whales is really silly. They're extremely intelligent and they also have deep emotional bonds with their family members that are often violently shattered when these parks move whales around. They also naturally roam over thousands of square miles of ocean, and the tanks most parks keep them in are the equivalent of snake rack systems. Often times the parks will store multiple unrelated whales in the same small holding tanks at night, which causes stress and fighting.

There are just no valid parallels between keeping killer whales and reptiles.

The point was on exotics in general.

[Mikoh4792]

Genetic weakness is determined by physical attributes that affect the way they live and reproduce. Each generation that gets produced becomes weaker unless outcrossed properly. Clutch sizes drop, hatch rate suffers, birth defects increase etc. You may not see it in F2- F4 but it does happen, its a proven fact that once genetic variation decreases so does the genetic stability. In fact there are pieds that do not produce viable clutches since they have been so imbed. I would consider them genetically weak. No matter the environment.

I find the human question insulting.



I'm a caregiver to elderly grandparents and before my son came along I worked as a social worker in geriatrics and palliative care..

Apologize when ready.



I guess you're not getting my point. Why do you keep bringing inbreeding into this?

The only thing I am asking is why is it morally reprehensible to keep reptiles...just go over my last few posts. I clearly state I'm not talking about inbreeding, assist feeding...etc. I'm only talking about keeping reptiles and why it's wrong to do so.

And you miss my point again on the human part. It wasn't asked to be part of my argument. It was a side question to see where your head is at when using the same logic(nurturing the weak) with humans. It had no hidden agenda...something I also clarified.

Apologize when ready... =[

[lady_bug87]

Either I'm not being clear or you're not listening.

Its wrong because its selfish. Because we keep them for no reason than because we like them. No matter HOW you keep them you're selfish, if you really care about the animals you would be fighting for the hobby to stop collecting from wild sources, you wouldn't keep them in your home, you would go out and visit them in theirs.

[CosmicOwl]

The point was on exotics in general.

That's the problem. Generalizing all exotics is absurd. There are some that do extremely poorly in captivity(like killer whales) and some that thrive(like corn snakes). The same rules do not apply to all exotics, they don't even apply to all reptiles.

[Mikoh4792]

Either I'm not being clear or you're not listening.

It's because you were not directly answering a basic question.

Its wrong because its selfish. Because we keep them for no reason than because we like them. No matter HOW you keep them you're selfish, if you really care about the animals you would be fighting for the hobby to stop collecting from wild sources, you wouldn't keep them in your home, you would go out and visit them in theirs.

There you go! Finally answered the question without bringing in irrelevant factors such as inbreeding.

[Mikoh4792]

But that leads me to ask, why is it wrong just because it's selfish? What if the animal being cared for does not suffer?

I don't see how something is automatically wrong just because it's selfish.

[StudentoReptile]

Okay, before we all get too huffy-puffy about this, let's recap a little bit....

1.) We can all generally agree to some extent, that keeping reptiles in captivity (especially in the private sector) is a selfish endeavor, whether it is for breeding, display or just for pets. Some of us come to terms with it, some of us are in denial, whatever. But with the rare exception of projects involving restoration of wild populations that may require captive breeding, anything typically involves us keeping the animals for our benefit, not theirs.

2.) Comparing different species is like comparing apples to oranges. Different species have different needs physiologically, mentally, and socially. This is old hat to many of us here, but it bears repeating. Comparing orcas to dogs to iguanas to snakes can be a murky discussion because the bottom line is THEY ARE NOT ALL THE SAME! Snakes prefer dark, warm, relatively confined quarters in solitude and generally thrive well in those conditions, where as dogs do not, so comparing basements full of snake racks to puppy mills does not fly. Period. The inhumane conditions of one species does not constitute inhumane conditions for another; ergo, the morality & ethics of keeping those different animals are not equal as well.

3.) The issue of longevity was brought up. I already noted my thoughts on that point, but to add to it, I'll merely say something that has been said many times before: merely surviving is not thriving.
------

This is and always be a very controversial topic. I keep reptiles just like everyone else. I can rationalize what I do just like everyone else, but at the end of the day, I keep reptiles in cages because I like to look at them and find them fascinating. Would my herps be better off in their native habitats instead of the confined quarters I keep them in? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps they would be less stressed to some degree, but I do know they are less exposed to disease and predators, and yes, they will likely live longer in my care. I also know my BP has been the first snake many people has ever held. my tortoises will bring joy and wonder to my children and (hopefully) grandchildren in decades to come. My water snake will help educate others about native species and proper snake identification. So besides my own selfish desires, I use my herps as tools or ambassadors to "give back" to my community and hopefully further the hobby in more ways than to just help people find better ways to keep snakes in plastic tubs.

[CosmicOwl]

But that leads me to ask, why is it wrong just because it's selfish? What if the animal being cared for does not suffer?

I don't see how something is automatically wrong just because it's selfish.

Unless you're putting your happiness above the animal's well-being, it's arguably not even selfish.

[Aaron_S]

I guess you're not getting my point. Why do you keep bringing inbreeding into this?

The only thing I am asking is why is it morally reprehensible to keep reptiles...just go over my last few posts. I clearly state I'm not talking about inbreeding, assist feeding...etc. I'm only talking about keeping reptiles and why it's wrong to do so.

And you miss my point again on the human part. It wasn't asked to be part of my argument. It was a side question to see where your head is at when using the same logic(nurturing the weak) with humans. It had no hidden agenda...something I also clarified.

Apologize when ready... =[

Honestly you're beginning to change the argument to fit your needs. You place these parameters on what anyone can build their response on because it doesn't fit with the view you're trying to get.

You're essentially trying to railroad people into appeasing your view.

You started out with this whole general topic but you keep telling the respondants that they can't use certain arguments...assist feed, inbreeding and such...

As well you simply can't compares snakes and humans. Even with your above explanation you're bringing them into the argument to try and goad Lori into saying something that will prove her a hypocrit. Compare apples to apples.

Lastly, selfish is not a good trait to have so how can one be selfish but yet still doing good? You're grasping at straws because now we're onto the definition of the word "selfish" and what that means.

[lady_bug87]

It's because you were not directly answering a basic question.



There you go! Finally answered the question without bringing in irrelevant factors such as inbreeding.

Its all part of the hobby you want to improve so its all relevant

[Aaron_S]

It's because you were not directly answering a basic question.



There you go! Finally answered the question without bringing in irrelevant factors such as inbreeding.

You brought in irrelevant factors when you started asking about humans to try and prove your point. You go and tell others they can't bring in other factors to prove their point.

You are really trying to make people see your view and your view only.

[lady_bug87]

Unless you're putting your happiness above the animal's well-being, it's arguably not even selfish.

Keeping them IS putting your happiness above their wellbeing

[Aaron_S]

Unless you're putting your happiness above the animal's well-being, it's arguably not even selfish.

So how many people here can raise their hand that they first bought a snake not because they wanted it but because they felt it would somehow help the world?

You're grasping at straws.

[Mikoh4792]

Honestly you're beginning to change the argument to fit your needs. You place these parameters on what anyone can build their response on because it doesn't fit with the view you're trying to get.

You're essentially trying to railroad people into appeasing your view.

You started out with this whole general topic but you keep telling the respondants that they can't use certain arguments...assist feed, inbreeding and such...

Not at all. My original question to Lori was " why is it morally reprehensible to keep reptiles". She is the one who brought up inbreeding, assist feeding, and weakening a populations genes. No railroading here.

Yes some things you just can't use in an argument because it has no bearing. The only thing I was interested in was why it's wrong to keep reptiles....she finally gave her answer.

As well you simply can't compares snakes and humans. Even with your above explanation you're bringing them into the argument to try and goad Lori into saying something that will prove her a hypocrit. Compare apples to apples.

You're free to think this, but it's only an assumption and accusation on your part. I clarified there were no hidden motives behind that question and I also gave my reasoning as to why I asked.

Lastly, selfish is not a good trait to have so how can one be selfish but yet still doing good? You're grasping at straws because now we're onto the definition of the word "selfish" and what that means.

Do good? I never said anything about doing good. No grasping at straws here, just asking why selfish automatically makes something morally reprehensible.

Putting words in my mouth and making accusations at the same time.

[Mikoh4792]

You brought in irrelevant factors when you started asking about humans to try and prove your point. You go and tell others they can't bring in other factors to prove their point.

Refer to my post before this.

You are really trying to make people see your view and your view only.

Actually I don't think I am. I was just asking a question. What is my view?

I have views about the current market (ie. I don't like the emphasis on morphs and such...etc) but I don't think I was forcing my views on Lori. I was only asking questions and tried to figure out her reasoning on her assertion that keeping reptiles was wrong.

[CosmicOwl]

Keeping them IS putting your happiness above their wellbeing

In what way? Do you think a snake living in the wild that has to avoid predators and hunt for food is less stressed and more healthy than one kept under good conditions in captivity?

Also, I never said that I think it's good to keep snakes in captivity. I simply don't think it's inherently bad or selfish.

[Aaron_S]

Not at all. My original question to Lori was " why is it morally reprehensible to keep reptiles". She is the one who brought inbreeding, assist feeding, and weakening a populations genes with these factors. No railroading here.

Yes some things you just can't use in an argument because it has no bearing. The only thing I was interested in was why it's wrong to keep reptiles....she finally gave her answer.



You're free to think this, but it's only an assumption and accusation on your part. I clarified there were no hidden motives behind that question and I also gave my reasoning as to why I asked.



Do good? I never said anything about doing good. No grasping at straws here, just asking why selfish automatically makes something morally reprehensible.

Putting words in my mouth and making accusations at the same time.

Yes. She brought aspects in because she felt they would help her argument. You then told her she can't use them to support her argument. So yes I am correct. Thank you.

Again it's no assumption. You're comparing apples to oranges. Compare apples to apples. Humans are not apples in this case.

You asked why being selfish is wrong. Quite simply it's because selfish is a trait that is widely accepted as a negative trait. Ergo it's wrong to be selfish.

Like I said you're now at the definition of selfish to prove a point. You've lost...

[Aaron_S]

Refer to my post before this.



Actually I don't think I am. I was just asking a question. What is my view?

I have views about the current market (ie. I don't like the emphasis on morphs and such...etc) but I don't think I was forcing my views on Lori. I was only asking questions and tried to figure out her reasoning on her assertion that keeping reptiles was wrong.

You didn't make any reply to pointing out that you brought in irrelevant arguments to try and help you.

Everything else is just noise.

Back to the actual argument. Which you clearly don't really have one.

[Aaron_S]

In what way? Do you think a snake living in the wild that has to avoid predators and hunt for food is less stressed and more healthy than one kept under good conditions in captivity?

Also, I never said that I think it's good to keep snakes in captivity. I simply don't think it's inherently bad or selfish.

That's a silly argument, isn't it?

How can you even make the point that an animal living in the wild is unhealthy and stressed out. Have you seen any studies to suggest this?

Have you even seen many animals in captivity? I have seen dozens of animals stressed out in captivity. In fact I would even gamble that more animals die from stress in captivity than in the wild.

[Mikoh4792]

Yes. She brought aspects in because she felt they would help her argument. You then told her she can't use them to support her argument. So yes I am correct. Thank you.

I never told her she couldn't use those factors, but I am saying it doesn't logically follow to use them.

What do those aspects have to do with just keeping reptiles? How does putting a cornsnake in a 4x2x2 cause inbreeding?

See my point?

Again it's no assumption. You're comparing apples to oranges. Compare apples to apples. Humans are not apples in this case.

It is in fact an assumption and an accusation(Accusing me for trying to be sneaky), there is no way getting around it. You could have saved me the trouble by going back to read my reasoning for asking the question. I said it was a side question not meant to be part of my argument, I just wanted to see how she applies that logic when it comes to humans.


You asked why being selfish is wrong. Quite simply it's because selfish is a trait that is widely accepted as a negative trait. Ergo it's wrong to be selfish.

Like I said you're now at the definition of selfish to prove a point. You've lost...

Well I guess I don't have much else to say then. To me wrong = bad... usually meaning someone/something suffers.

If I am being selfish and nothing suffers I don't see how it's wrong. So I will agree to disagree on why selfish automatically makes something wrong.

[lady_bug87]

In what way? Do you think a snake living in the wild that has to avoid predators and hunt for food is less stressed and more healthy than one kept under good conditions in captivity?

Also, I never said that I think it's good to keep snakes in captivity. I simply don't think it's inherently bad or selfish.

Healthier? Maybe but captivity doesn't equal health. If the conditions are good and the animal is taken care of it doesn't make it any less selfish. But it does make it tolerable. The animal isn't suffering at least

[Mikoh4792]

You didn't make any reply to pointing out that you brought in irrelevant arguments to try and help you.

Everything else is just noise.

Back to the actual argument. Which you clearly don't really have one.

In fact I did. I go over these points in my last few posts you just need to read them.

Everything else isn't just noise, you're just getting into a hissy fit and resorting to ad-hominem. If you can't argue without doing that I'll stop right here.

[CosmicOwl]

That's a silly argument, isn't it?

How can you even make the point that an animal living in the wild is unhealthy and stressed out. Have you seen any studies to suggest this?

Have you even seen many animals in captivity? I have seen dozens of animals stressed out in captivity. In fact I would even gamble that more animals die from stress in captivity than in the wild.

I'm not. I'm simply saying that "the wild" isn't inherently a better place for all reptiles.

I'll agree with your point that plenty of animals are stressed in captivity. However, it's hard to say captivity itself is bad, and not individual factors of captivity such as husbandry and diet. I've also acknowledged that a lot of species simply should not be kept in captivity for the aforementioned reasons. This is why I've been trying to keep my argument focused on animals that are housed under good conditions.

[Aaron_S]

I said it was a side question not meant to be part of my argument, I just wanted to see how she applies that logic when it comes to humans...

If it's not part of the argument how is it irrelevant? Sounds more like a PM question then.

Thanks for proving my point how you were the only one allowed to bring irrelevant information to the thread.

No one else was. Not even if it's about the hobby YOU asked about improving. You can't pick and choose what people can or can't talk about it when discussing the hobby.

I said it pages ago. The hobby is what someone makes it. You're again pushing your standard of what the hobby means in regards to breeding, inbreeding or morphs or whatever... It's all apart of it and you can't take the pieces you only wish to discuss.

That's my point. You certainly are showing you have a different agenda than when you started. Why not come out and tell us what point you're trying to make everyone say?

[Aaron_S]

I'm not. I'm simply saying that "the wild" isn't inherently a better place for all reptiles.

I'll agree with your point that plenty of animals are stressed in captivity. However, it's hard to say captivity itself is bad, and not individual factors of captivity such as husbandry and diet. I've also acknowledged that a lot of species simply should not be kept in captivity for the aforementioned reasons. This is why I've been trying to keep my argument focused on animals that are housed under good conditions.

You're then trying to make the argument not about the hobby and how it is as a whole but about a certain aspect. Ignoring other factors.

It's fine if that's what you want to talk about but that isn't what this debate was originally intended for.

[Mikoh4792]

If it's not part of the argument how is it irrelevant? Sounds more like a PM question then.

Thanks for proving my point how you were the only one allowed to bring irrelevant information to the thread.

Yes an irrelevant question, which is exactly the reason why I said it wasn't part of my argument....don't know how many times I have to clarify.

In Lori's case she used irrelevant factors such as inbreeding as part of her argument.

No one else was. Not even if it's about the hobby YOU asked about improving. You can't pick and choose what people can or can't talk about it when discussing the hobby.

Of course I can't pick and choose what people can/can't talk about. I never told anyone not to talk about something.

I'm just asking what does inbreeding have to do with "why is keeping reptiles wrong"?

I said it pages ago. The hobby is what someone makes it. You're again pushing your standard of what the hobby means in regards to breeding, inbreeding or morphs or whatever... It's all apart of it and you can't take the pieces you only wish to discuss.

my point. You certainly are showing you have a different agenda than when you started. Why not come out and tell us what point you're trying to make everyone say?

Not at all. I gave my views on the first few pages of what I think about the hobby. My discussion with Lori had nothing to do with those views. It was mainly me asking the same question over and over again, until she finally decided to answer it directly.

[smy_749]

The fact of the matter is this is not one hobby, in my opinion. Herping is much different than keeping. They share the same interests, like how race-car drivers and mechanics do, but they are not the same hobby. Likewise, I don't consider myself to be in the same hobby as ball python breeders. Nothing against ball python breeders, but I see the two as apples and oranges. To each his own

[Mikoh4792]

The fact of the matter is this is not one hobby, in my opinion. Herping is much different than keeping. They share the same interests, like how race-car drivers and mechanics do, but they are not the same hobby. Likewise, I don't consider myself to be in the same hobby as ball python breeders. Nothing against ball python breeders, but I see the two as apples and oranges. To each his own

Could you elaborate on what you mean by herping vs keeping?

[CosmicOwl]

You're then trying to make the argument not about the hobby and how it is as a whole but about a certain aspect. Ignoring other factors.

It's fine if that's what you want to talk about but that isn't what this debate was originally intended for.

This thread strayed from its original intent as soon as Lori decided to claim the moral high ground while accusing others of claiming the moral high ground.

Regardless of the intent of this discussion, my argument has only been that I don't see a moral basis for keepers getting rid of all of their animals. I don't think it is inherently selfish to keep reptiles in captivity, but I believe it becomes selfish when one starts to treat them like objects to be hoarded or if they neglect the care required by the animal.

The truth is, morality is not an all or nothing issue. If it were, anybody who had killed another person would be sent to jail for life(because killing is wrong), regardless of whether it was murder or self defense. However, we don't do that because we understand that various factors effect the morality of an issue. Likewise, I feel that keeping animals in captivity is morally neutral, but can become immoral depending upon the circumstances.

[Tsubaki]

Hmm...

Domesticated animals have been domesticated for our convenience (work/food) However 'pets' are only here because we Like them. Yes i believe keeping any animal as a pet (now leaving farm and working animals aside) is always purely for your own content. Therefor, Selfish. - Think about it, if you did not like animals.. Would you own any?- No you would not, because you do not need them to survive. So keeping pets is always for your own hobby/pleasure. And do i feel guilty for keeping an animal as a pet, even though i just clearly stated i think it is selfish? No i do not, and here is why.

Non-domesticated animals like reptiles can be justified as pets, the same way other animals are. That they do not bond with humans like domesticated animals do, does not change that keeping Any pet is basically selfish. Domesticated animals like dogs need bonding to thrive, snakes do not need it. Simple as that. So i do not see much difference between keeping reptiles or other animals, as long as they are cared for and housed in the best way possible. Basically: As long as the animals thrive in captivity, i do not see any difficulty with it. What i do have problems with, are animals who are clearly Not cut out to be kept in captivity. Like the stated before, Orca. Orca's do not thrive and are clearly not the kind of animal that should be kept captive, so there is no way you can justify keeping them in captivity if you ask me.

Thinking about it, we take away the same privileges from any animal we decide to keep as pet. And they gain the same privileges, if they are kept properly.
They gain: Stable environment, stable food supply, (medical) attention.
They lose: (Full) Freedom to roam, find their own mate, being their own boss.

All my statements are with one thing in mind, that we try to house and care for the animals to the VERY best of our abilities. And that they thrive in this good care. Anyone not caring for an animal to the best of their abilities, and only keeping them to show off.. Is just an **** in my book, and should simply not own animals. But since i do not identify in that description, ill continue enjoying caring for these marvelous beings to the best of my abilities. I do not feel any more guilty for my snake(s), than i do for my dog. I do not love them the same, but i do however love to own them both. Because i am selfish like that :D

[smy_749]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by herping vs keeping?


Going out and looking for wild reptiles in their natural habitats, vs keeping them in the house. I think they are different hobbies.

[Mikoh4792]

Hmm...

Domesticated animals have been domesticated for our convenience (work/food) However 'pets' are only here because we Like them. Yes i believe keeping any animal as a pet (now leaving farm and working animals aside) is always purely for your own content. Therefor, Selfish. - Think about it, if you did not like animals.. Would you own any?- No you would not, because you do not need them to survive. So keeping pets is always for your own hobby/pleasure. And do i feel guilty for keeping an animal as a pet, even though i just clearly stated i think it is selfish? No i do not, and here is why.

Non-domesticated animals like reptiles can be justified as pets, the same way other animals are. That they do not bond with humans like domesticated animals do, does not change that keeping Any pet is basically selfish. Domesticated animals like dogs need bonding to thrive, snakes do not need it. Simple as that. So i do not see much difference between keeping reptiles or other animals, as long as they are cared for and housed in the best way possible. Basically: As long as the animals thrive in captivity, i do not see any difficulty with it. What i do have problems with, are animals who are clearly Not cut out to be kept in captivity. Like the stated before, Orca. Orca's do not thrive and are clearly not the kind of animal that should be kept captive, so there is no way you can justify keeping them in captivity if you ask me.

Thinking about it, we take away the same privileges from any animal we decide to keep as pet. And they gain the same privileges, if they are kept properly.
They gain: Stable environment, stable food supply, (medical) attention.
They lose: (Full) Freedom to roam, find their own mate, being their own boss.

All my statements are with one thing in mind, that we try to house and care for the animals to the VERY best of our abilities. And that they thrive in this good care. Anyone not caring for an animal to the best of their abilities, and only keeping them to show off.. Is just an **** in my book, and should simply not own animals. But since i do not identify in that description, ill continue enjoying caring for these marvelous beings to the best of my abilities. I do not feel any more guilty for my snake(s), than i do for my dog. I do not love them the same, but i do however love to own them both. Because i am selfish like that :D

Thanks for the input.

[Mikoh4792]

Going out and looking for wild reptiles in their natural habitats, vs keeping them in the house. I think they are different hobbies.

Didn't know you meant field herping by that, nevermind.

[Donnie]

hmm perhaps its another EU country, will look it up tomorrow



offtopic - do you guys really not like the name Holland? whys that? never knew, its the common name we use, except formally

Holland is an area not a country (anymore) and most people who use it do so in the context of it being a country which I think would get annoying for the inhabitants of the other regions of the Netherlands. It's like somebody saying they are going to the West Midlands when they mean England.


sorry all, you can carry on on topic now

[Tsubaki]

I live in Brabant not Holland, so i get slightly frustrated if people call my entire country the name of one region. :)

[formica]

I would not consider field herping part of general reptile keeping hobby personally, I suspect that those who do it are a minority amongst reptile owners...and some of us are unlucky enough to have very few to spot in the wild any way :(



I live in Brabant not Holland, so i get slightly frustrated if people call my entire country the name of one region. :)

had no idea there was a diffrence...so Netherlands is like the UK, a union of seperate countries? dont blame you...I wouldnt appriciate being called Welsh or Scottish either :D

saying they are going to the West Midlands when they mean England.

are the West Midlands also looking for independence from England and the UK? haha :P

[Tsubaki]

had no idea there was a diffrence...so Netherlands is like the UK, a union of seperate countries? dont blame you...I wouldnt appriciate being called Welsh or Scottish either :D

Not exactly :D The name Holland goes back tot he time that the dutch were famous on the seas. Holland is the part of the Netherlands where the docks are, so the name got a round a lot, but it is merely the name of a province. I don't blame anyone, a lot of foreigners were just simply never told the difference.

Sorry for the off-topic!

I do not consider field herping a part of the the reptile keeping hobby either, but i it is still a hobby with a shared love for reptiles. I cant go legally herping within my own country without a license, and i will never get a license. So there is not much more i can say about it.

[lady_bug87]

Ball pythons,leopard geckos,corn snakes,bearded dragons,crested geckos is all people are buying and selling for money. 95% of videos i watch is of a 8 year old that has bought a leopard gecko and is going to start breeding them and i always think "wow your going to make lots of money cause not like your going up against giant breeders". Here is the reptile community.

In it for money-85%
Want to show off-5%
In it for the animals-10%

Why don't people try making morphs of other animals? Like tiger salamanders or green anoles other wise were just going to be stuck in the same cycle.

This is pretty accurate.

You can divide the 10% that are "In it for the animals" to 8% uneducated on proper husbandry, and thinking their reptiles love them and love to dress up for halloween and sleep on their laps. 2% can say the scientific name of whats in their collection, and tell you some interesting facts.

9]Thanks i guess im in that 2% :)
[/I]
I get tired of the crazes. At least with the ball pythons holy cow. Dont get me wrong, I love that they are the economy of the reptile trade right now, and I think they are beautiful animals. But honestly when you go to a show, and 90% of the herps there are ball pythons, it shows that most are just there for the money. I honestly like going for the other animals, the skinks, moniters, tree boas, and the colubrids. I will check out a colubrid or a boa any day of the week over a ball. Ill own a ball python one day but honestly lets get some variety back into things..

But also I agree with cosmic. The motto for snakes shouldnt be gotta catch em' all. How about we breed for the fun of it, to learn something..

Ball pythons at expos are like collectors items. Oh look! a new and shiny toy! Same with non-locale morph boas.

If I ever get a ball python I'm owning a normal one.




Right, I started with the moral high ground....

[Mikoh4792]

Right, I started with the moral high ground....

I did take the moral high ground first, but I think you're using the wrong example. In my comment you quoted, I was just saying expos focus too much on BP morphs and that I would rather get a normal one. I never said it was morally wrong to have too many bp's at an expo.

I took the moral high ground in my post after that, when I gave my opinion on how I think people are viewing these animals in the wrong way(ie. fascination with multi-gene morphs, feeling accomplishment for creating multi-gene morphs...etc).

So you're right. we are the ones who acted all high and mighty first.

[Aaron_S]

In my comment you quoted, I was just saying expos focus too much on BP morphs...

This is silly. It isn't the expo that picks who comes and vends at a show. ANYONE can buy a table and set up. Don't blame the expo for something completely out of their control.

So as Lori said, if you want to see something different at a show then people should put their money where their mouth is and do it themselves.

The funny part is that everyone claims they want something else and "different" but when some breeders actually do offer it, no one wants to pay for them. They simply want a different zoo everytime they go to a show.

[Mikoh4792]

This is silly. It isn't the expo that picks who comes and vends at a show. ANYONE can buy a table and set up. Don't blame the expo for something completely out of their control.

So as Lori said, if you want to see something different at a show then people should put their money where their mouth is and do it themselves.

The funny part is that everyone claims they want something else and "different" but when some breeders actually do offer it, no one wants to pay for them. They simply want a different zoo everytime they go to a show.

My fault, I chose the wrong words.

I did not mean to say the people running the expos were to blame. I should have just said "There are too many ball pythons at expos".

[Aaron_S]

My fault, I chose the wrong words.

I did not mean to say the people running the expos were to blame. I should have just said "There are too many ball pythons at expos".

Here's a good question, instead of complaining about it on the internet, what are you currently doing to change it?

[Mikoh4792]

Here's a good question, instead of complaining about it on the internet, what are you currently doing to change it?

Not exactly complaining, just expressing my views on the forum. Do I need to take action for every view I have? I personally don't see the overwhelming number of ball pythons at expos as a big deal. It's just something I'm stating while we are on the subject.

[formica]

Here's a good question, instead of complaining about it on the internet, what are you currently doing to change it?

here is a better question, what exactly is your point? what have you brought to this discussion which is of any value to the topic? all I can see are comments designed to belittle anyone with an opinion, with no participation in the discussion itself. they have a word for that you know.

sounds to me like you are being contrary just for its own sake. and there is little value in that - it certainly has less value than the discussion itself.


and FYI, in a world which values intelligent decision making; discussion's, come before actions.

[Aaron_S]

here is a better question, what exactly is your point? what have you brought to this discussion which is of any value to the topic? all I can see are comments designed to belittle anyone with an opinion, with no participation in the discussion itself. they have a word for that you know.

sounds to me like you are being contrary just for its own sake. and there is little value in that - it certainly has less value than the discussion itself.


and FYI, in a world which values intelligent decision making; discussion's, come before actions.

My point is simple. People came to this thread and belittled MY hobby. I defended it.

and FYI this "discussion" has been going on for YEARS. When does action occur?

Here are two instances where I was involved in the discussion. You can stop trying to paint me in one particular light that you see me in.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/900946-post39.html

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/900945-post38.html

I await my apology for lying about me and my participation in the discussion.

[Aaron_S]

Not exactly complaining, just expressing my views on the forum. Do I need to take action for every view I have? I personally don't see the overwhelming number of ball pythons at expos as a big deal. It's just something I'm stating while we are on the subject.

Ball pythons at expos are like collectors items. Oh look! a new and shiny toy! Same with non-locale morph boas.

If I ever get a ball python I'm owning a normal one.

Hmm if that's just a "view" it's rather negative and judgemental to a particular group within the hobby don't you think?

It followed a number of posts with the same sentiment about ball python keepers and their mentalities. I am not putting words into anyone's mouth because this is the context of which the poster's used.

...when I gave my opinion on how I think people are viewing these animals in the wrong way...

This is another quote of yours.
You want to give your opinion that people have a "wrong view" of these animals then what are you doing to help change that?

This is YOUR question essentially at the start of this thread. It's clear you want this "wrong view" to change so what are you doing to help change it?!

[psychocircus]

Sorry this is a little off topic, but it goes back to the "general" exotics that were mentioned.

Lady bug, how do you feel about captive animals that are bred in part because they are endangered in the wild? If these animals are "weaker" than their wild counterparts, then is it selfish to raise them in captivity?

Would it be better to let the species go extinct because they are not truly thriving in captivity? After all, there are still other motives in keeping those captive animals.

[Mikoh4792]

Hmm if that's just a "view" it's rather negative and judgemental to a particular group within the hobby don't you think?

It followed a number of posts with the same sentiment about ball python keepers and their mentalities. I am not putting words into anyone's mouth because this is the context of which the poster's used.

This is another quote of yours.
You want to give your opinion that people have a "wrong view" of these animals then what are you doing to help change that?

This is YOUR question essentially at the start of this thread. It's clear you want this "wrong view" to change so what are you doing to help change it?!

Judgmental and negative? Yes. It was meant to be. If I think something is "wrong" it means I am judging and viewing it in a negative light. It's common sense and self explanatory.

What am I going to do about it? To tell you the truth I'm not so sure. I don't breed snakes yet, nor can I tell people to stop breeding ball python morphs.

I am just here to discuss people's views and opinions, I don't need to take any action. Again, the fact that expos are overrun with ball pythons is an annoyance, it's not a serious problem. Why do I have to do anything? Are you trying to stop me from expressing my views here with a similar philosophy of "If you're not going to do something about it, don't say anything bad about it"?

Well what I am doing about it is spreading ideas by discussion. That's as far as I'll go.

[Mikoh4792]

It followed a number of posts with the same sentiment about ball python keepers and their mentalities. I am not putting words into anyone's mouth because this is the context of which the poster's used.

Nothing against ball pythons keepers, breeders, fans...etc. Just with the overwhelming fascination with morphs. And if it were to go the same way with my favorite genus Morelia, I'd be saying the same thing. It just so happens that right now my view is aimed towards ball pythons... since it's a good example

And to add to my last post, the reason why I won't do much about it is because it's peoples' freedom to keep and breed what they want. If I don't like it, I'll just say it, I'm not going to actually try to stop people from doing what they do as long as others are not harmed.

[Aaron_S]

Nothing against ball pythons keepers, breeders, fans...etc. Just with the overwhelming fascination with morphs. And if it were to go the same way with my favorite genus Morelia, I'd be saying the same thing. It just so happens that right now my view is aimed towards ball pythons... since it's a good example

And to add to my last post, the reason why I won't do much about it is because it's peoples' freedom to keep and breed what they want. If I don't like it, I'll just say it, I'm not going to actually try to stop people from doing what they do as long as others are not harmed.

A lot of people express the same "annoyance" with ball pythons and other commonly bred species being prevalent at expos. Yet none of those people are willing to change that. So why even mention it? Especially in a thread about changing the hobby. It's odd to talk about change then say there's no reason not to. Kind of makes the discussion moot if no one is willing to change anything...

You must be fairly new to the hobby. Carpet pythons had their time in the sunlight and people were buying them like crazy to make Jaguar this and that. It actually picked back up a few years ago with the zebra's and granites and albinos.

Nothing quite like the ball python world but it sure did happen where people were buying them up for the "next big thing". So it already happened with your favourite.

[Mikoh4792]

A lot of people express the same "annoyance" with ball pythons and other commonly bred species being prevalent at expos. Yet none of those people are willing to change that. So why even mention it? Especially in a thread about changing the hobby. It's odd to talk about change then say there's no reason not to. Kind of makes the discussion moot if no one is willing to change anything...

Never said there's no reason not to. Just saying I probably can't make much of a difference myself since a) I'm not a big name breeder b) I can't tell others not to breed ball python morphs. But the change is something I would like to see....which was actually the original theme of the thread. I can discuss this can I not? Call it moot if you want, I'm just here to discuss. If you don't see a point in this, you don't need to participate.

Again you seem to be missing my point. What I'm doing about it is discussing it, spreading ideas, sharing ideas....etc. Conversation goes a long way. I'm not going to be a hero and take radical action against this trivial annoyance. Stop trying to get me to do something about it! LOL

You must be fairly new to the hobby. Carpet pythons had their time in the sunlight and people were buying them like crazy to make Jaguar this and that. It actually picked back up a few years ago with the zebra's and granites and albinos.

Nothing quite like the ball python world but it sure did happen where people were buying them up for the "next big thing". So it already happened with your favourite.

Fairly new yes. Not completely new.

I am well aware of how carpet pythons were then and are now . However as you said yourself, it's not nearly as bad. Not so bad it takes up the majority of most expos. Not so bad since there is still a valuable market for "normals and locales". Within any given genus/species....etc there are people who will just like the species for the morphs. When it comes to jags and such... I also view that aspect of carpet pythons in a negative way, and I talk about it when it is relevant.

But since it is relevant now, yes even with carpet pythons I don't get the whole craze over jaguars... but I'm not trying to stop people from keeping/breeding them.

[Mikoh4792]

I find it adorable when people who have no clue what their talking about try and come off like they do.

I know a handful of people (including myself) that were at a local council meeting and got the proposed all out exotic ban to convert to a 2 meter rule for snakes. That's not everything but it certainly proved your theory wrong.

Glad to know you're only willing to complain about it over the internet and not actually do anything about it.

Forgive me for my assumptions, but is this where you get your "do something about it" attitude? If so why bring that mindset over to this thread? It has no relevance.

There are no council meetings for " make them stop producing ball pythons morphs!"

Again, the ball python craze is a trivial annoyance. I'm going to ask you to stop bothering me about taking action. I call THAT moot.

[Aaron_S]

Forgive me for my assumptions, but is this where you get your "do something about it" attitude? If so why bring that mindset over to this thread? It has no relevance.

There are no council meetings for " make them stop producing ball pythons morphs!"

Again, the ball python craze is a trivial annoyance. I'm going to ask you to stop bothering me about taking action. I call THAT moot.

You looked in the wrong thread.

[Mikoh4792]

You looked in the wrong thread.

I know it was in a different thread, but I'm asking you if you got that mindset from the fact that you are one of those people who "did something about it". That's why I said forgive me for assuming.

And if that is where you got that mindset, I was making my previous comment in response to that fact.

[Aaron_S]

Never said there's no reason not to. Just saying I probably can't make much of a difference myself since a) I'm not a big name breeder b) I can't tell others not to breed ball python morphs. But the change is something I would like to see....which was actually the original theme of the thread. I can discuss this can I not? Call it moot if you want, I'm just here to discuss. If you don't see a point in this, you don't need to participate.

Again you seem to be missing my point. What I'm doing about it is discussing it, spreading ideas, sharing ideas....etc. Conversation goes a long way. I'm not going to be a hero and take radical action against this trivial annoyance. Stop trying to get me to do something about it! LOL



Fairly new yes. Not completely new.

I am well aware of how carpet pythons were then and are now . However as you said yourself, it's not nearly as bad. Not so bad it takes up the majority of most expos. Not so bad since there is still a valuable market for "normals and locales". Within any given genus/species....etc there are people who will just like the species for the morphs. When it comes to jags and such... I also view that aspect of carpet pythons in a negative way, and I talk about it when it is relevant.

But since it is relevant now, yes even with carpet pythons I don't get the whole craze over jaguars... but I'm not trying to stop people from keeping/breeding them.

You want to know why carpet pythons never caught on like ball pythons? Nobody fricking wanted to buy them. People grow tired of the "different" and all that species entails. They go back to the ball pythons or other "easy" species.

Secondly, this has been discussed for YEARS about change. You've brought nothing new to the table. Conversation DOES NOT go a long way because this conversation has been done at least yearly for the past 5 years. Yet, there's still no change....I've been around long enough to actually know this by the way.

If it's so trivial then why even make a thread about changing the landscape of the hobby? You clearly are talking out two sides of your mouth just to always try and keep your self in some positive light.

What makes anyone think that because they aren't a "big name" they can't change something? You know you could raise up some snakes of whatever species. Get a table at a show and change just that single table from xx common morph to something "different". Simple as that.

Don't come asking others to change when you yourself aren't even open to doing it yourself.

You're also the only one currently even talking in this thread and it's an open call to be honest. ANYONE who doesn't like ball pythons being so prevalent at expos should step up and make a change themselves. Heck just go and get 2 other friends to buy a pair of a different species too and you can all split on a table at a show and hock 3 "brand new" and "different" species.

[lady_bug87]

Sorry this is a little off topic, but it goes back to the "general" exotics that were mentioned.

Lady bug, how do you feel about captive animals that are bred in part because they are endangered in the wild? If these animals are "weaker" than their wild counterparts, then is it selfish to raise them in captivity?

Would it be better to let the species go extinct because they are not truly thriving in captivity? After all, there are still other motives in keeping those captive animals.

I feel very strongly for conservation. But there are a lot of zoos that do things wrong. I'm lucky to have visited zoos and serpntariums in 3 different countries. Some good some bad,

The zoos that work with wildlife conservation trying to replenish natural populations, or strive to keep animals in captivity that would otherwise be extinct usually do a good job of ethical care, they have the resources the private sector does not. The ones that don't (SeaWorld for example) should have licenses revoked.

So its clear for you mikoh

I don't lump captivity for pleasure in with captivity for conservation. For me the context of why the animal is in captivity holds just as much ethical weight as the care itself.

[CosmicOwl]

I don't think there is inherently a problem with ball pythons being really popular. In my opinion, the problem is more that people are buying BPs just for the sake of breeding morphs. I find it shallow for people to latch onto whatever is the new morph, and constantly sell/trade their snakes. To me, it's a negative aspect of the community. Breeding BP's isn't itself bad, just becoming obsessed with attaining the latest morphs and treating animals like objects.

[Aaron_S]

Forgive me for my assumptions, but is this where you get your "do something about it" attitude? If so why bring that mindset over to this thread? It has no relevance.

There are no council meetings for " make them stop producing ball pythons morphs!"

Again, the ball python craze is a trivial annoyance. I'm going to ask you to stop bothering me about taking action. I call THAT moot.

Nothing to do with council meetings.

You want to know why it's relevant? You created a thread about change. I have the mindset if you want something changed then go and do it. How is that irrelevant? You're literally being obtuse to try and make your point.

Oh that's right. It flies in the face of YOUR view so it can't possibly mean anything to a thread about change.

There's a LOT someone can do to "change" things. They just need to get off their lazy *** and do something about it. Don't need any meetings or discussions to do it. Just go out and raise a 1.1 of any "different" species and attempt to produce offspring.

It's straight forward.

[psychocircus]

I feel very strongly for conservation. But there are a lot of zoos that do things wrong. I'm lucky to have visited zoos and serpntariums in 3 different countries. Some good some bad,

The zoos that work with wildlife conservation trying to replenish natural populations, or strive to keep animals in captivity that would otherwise be extinct usually do a good job of ethical care, they have the resources the private sector does not. The ones that don't (SeaWorld for example) should have licenses revoked.

So its clear for you mikoh

I don't lump captivity for pleasure in with captivity for conservation. For me the context of why the animal is in captivity holds just as much ethical weight as the care itself.

But by the notion of what you have mentioned in previous posts, what is the point of preventing an animal from becoming extinct, just to keep it in captivity (for the ones that are maintained in captivity, rather than bred to release the young)? Most of these are kept in "zoo" settings. If they only remain captives, is that not selfish and for human purpose only?

Not disagreeing with you, just playing devil's advocate based on what's been said so far in this thread.

[Mikoh4792]

Nothing to do with council meetings.

You want to know why it's relevant? You created a thread about change. I have the mindset if you want something changed then go and do it. How is that irrelevant? You're literally being obtuse to try and make your point.

Oh that's right. It flies in the face of YOUR view so it can't possibly mean anything to a thread about change.

There's a LOT someone can do to "change" things. They just need to get off their lazy *** and do something about it. Don't need any meetings or discussions to do it. Just go out and raise a 1.1 of any "different" species and attempt to produce offspring.

It's straight forward.

Yes but what change is there to make? People like creating morphs, people like buying morphs. That's something that I "dislike" but there's nothing to change. Why do you keep telling me to do something about it? I can have a negative opinion about something, but if it's something people want to do who am I to try to stop that? Especially when it's not violating me in anyway?


And raising 1.1 of a species won't change anything. I am currently raising "1.1's" to keep as pets and have fun breeding in the future. Why recommend that as a method of change?


Oh that's right. It flies in the face of YOUR view so it can't possibly mean anything to a thread about change.

I don't know what this statement was for, but basically you are taking this very personally and seriously over my statement of dislike for the ball python morph craze. I was just giving my input to this thread's topic and you are the one dragging this trivial issue along.


It's straight forward

What's straight forward is the OP.

"What is your view on the reptile hobby as of now? What are some changes that would make it "better" in your opinion? In what direction would you like to see this hobby go?".

My input to that question was that I have distaste for the morph craze, particularly with ball pythons... but as I've explained time and time again, there's no real change to be done. That's just what people like right now. Has nothing to do with being lazy.

You confuse me because most of your posts are filled with ad-hominem. What personal problems do you have with me?

You have the last word. I've taken the time to try to get you to understand my points. If you don't get it by now, you won't get it anytime soon. You win, I lose.

[Mikoh4792]

You want to know why carpet pythons never caught on like ball pythons? Nobody fricking wanted to buy them. People grow tired of the "different" and all that species entails. They go back to the ball pythons or other "easy" species.

Secondly, this has been discussed for YEARS about change. You've brought nothing new to the table. Conversation DOES NOT go a long way because this conversation has been done at least yearly for the past 5 years. Yet, there's still no change....I've been around long enough to actually know this by the way.

If it's so trivial then why even make a thread about changing the landscape of the hobby? You clearly are talking out two sides of your mouth just to always try and keep your self in some positive light.

What makes anyone think that because they aren't a "big name" they can't change something? You know you could raise up some snakes of whatever species. Get a table at a show and change just that single table from xx common morph to something "different". Simple as that.

Don't come asking others to change when you yourself aren't even open to doing it yourself.

You're also the only one currently even talking in this thread and it's an open call to be honest. ANYONE who doesn't like ball pythons being so prevalent at expos should step up and make a change themselves. Heck just go and get 2 other friends to buy a pair of a different species too and you can all split on a table at a show and hock 3 "brand new" and "different" species.

Too many assumptions, accusations, and personal attacks here. Only thing I'll respond to is this statement.

If it's so trivial then why even make a thread about changing the landscape of the hobby? You clearly are talking out two sides of your mouth just to always try and keep your self in some positive light.

Because it's not just about my views. I'm giving my input, and would like to hear other people's input on the topic. That's all. Do you expect every thread to be a revolution? Get real. Ever heard of casual? Or are you always this serious.

[lady_bug87]

But by the notion of what you have mentioned in previous posts, what is the point of preventing an animal from becoming extinct, just to keep it in captivity (for the ones that are maintained in captivity, rather than bred to release the young)? Most of these are kept in "zoo" settings. If they only remain captives, is that not selfish and for human purpose only?

Not disagreeing with you, just playing devil's advocate based on what's been said so far in this thread.

It depends sometimes conservation is needed to restore the balance of the ecosystem. For example dwindling bat populations affect insect numbers and in turn negatively impact other animals spreading disease.

Dwindling honey bee populations affect pollination and therefore food supplies for both animals and humans in the ecosystem are affected

[Mikoh4792]

I feel very strongly for conservation. But there are a lot of zoos that do things wrong. I'm lucky to have visited zoos and serpntariums in 3 different countries. Some good some bad,

The zoos that work with wildlife conservation trying to replenish natural populations, or strive to keep animals in captivity that would otherwise be extinct usually do a good job of ethical care, they have the resources the private sector does not. The ones that don't (SeaWorld for example) should have licenses revoked.

So its clear for you mikoh

I don't lump captivity for pleasure in with captivity for conservation. For me the context of why the animal is in captivity holds just as much ethical weight as the care itself.

And with this I agree with you.

I was just trying to get a direct answer out of you before, and you have given a direct answer.

[marvelfreak]

My view of the reptile hobby? It's full of drama queens who instead of trying to help and educate new people about the hobby would rather argue among themselves. This hobby will always be view as a joke by outsiders because 80% of the people in it act so childish.

Always have to have the last word.
Always will argue till your blue in the face even when you don't have a leg to stand on.
Can never let things just die.
Can't just admit they don't know it all or maybe i was wrong about something.

The fact that threads like this full of childish bickering get more views and post than someone asking for help. Just makes me shake my head in shame.

[psychocircus]

It depends sometimes conservation is needed to restore the balance of the ecosystem. For example dwindling bat populations affect insect numbers and in turn negatively impact other animals spreading disease.

Dwindling honey bee populations affect pollination and therefore food supplies for both animals and humans in the ecosystem are affected

absolutely, I'm referring to species that only exist in captivity, but are extinct in the wild, the ones that will probably never be reintroduced into the wild.

[Mikoh4792]

My view of the reptile hobby? It's full of drama queens who instead of trying to help and educate new people about the hobby would rather argue among themselves. This hobby will always be view as a joke by outsiders because 80% of the people in it act so childish.

Always have to have the last word.
Always will argue till your blue in the face even when you don't have a leg to stand on.
Can never let things just die.
Can't just admit they don't know it all or maybe i was wrong about something.

The fact that threads like this full of childish bickering get more views and post than someone asking for help. Just makes me shake my head in shame.

Gave him the last word. I'm done. I was just trying to explain how trivial this all is. I try to understand when someone gets bent out of shape but I'm just here for discussion and people want me to make revolution.

[lady_bug87]

absolutely, I'm referring to species that only exist in captivity, but are extinct in the wild, the ones that will probably never be reintroduced into the wild.

Ah OK.

I would still consider that conservation.

[lady_bug87]

My view of the reptile hobby? It's full of drama queens who instead of trying to help and educate new people about the hobby would rather argue among themselves. This hobby will always be view as a joke by outsiders because 80% of the people in it act so childish.

Always have to have the last word.
Always will argue till your blue in the face even when you don't have a leg to stand on.
Can never let things just die.
Can't just admit they don't know it all or maybe i was wrong about something.

The fact that threads like this full of childish bickering get more views and post than someone asking for help. Just makes me shake my head in shame.


Oh daddy most of it is mikoh stomping because no one gets his point.... ever :p

[MDT]

I wanted to assert my bipedal-opposable-thumb-large-cranium dominance over some other species...I just happened to choose snakes.













(for the humor impaired...this was a joke)

[Aaron_S]

Yes but what change is there to make? People like creating morphs, people like buying morphs. That's something that I "dislike" but there's nothing to change. Why do you keep telling me to do something about it? I can have a negative opinion about something, but if it's something people want to do who am I to try to stop that? Especially when it's not violating me in anyway?


And raising 1.1 of a species won't change anything. I am currently raising "1.1's" to keep as pets and have fun breeding in the future. Why recommend that as a method of change?




I don't know what this statement was for, but basically you are taking this very personally and seriously over my statement of dislike for the ball python morph craze. I was just giving my input to this thread's topic and you are the one dragging this trivial issue along.




What's straight forward is the OP.

"What is your view on the reptile hobby as of now? What are some changes that would make it "better" in your opinion? In what direction would you like to see this hobby go?".

My input to that question was that I have distaste for the morph craze, particularly with ball pythons... but as I've explained time and time again, there's no real change to be done. That's just what people like right now. Has nothing to do with being lazy.

You confuse me because most of your posts are filled with ad-hominem. What personal problems do you have with me?

You have the last word. I've taken the time to try to get you to understand my points. If you don't get it by now, you won't get it anytime soon. You win, I lose.

The bold states you asked how the hobby can change for the "better".

The bold underline states that there's "no real change to be done."

You can't have it both ways. You aren't open to actual answers that differ from your view because you continually tell people that certain things aren't relevant when they are.

Case in point in a previous post you said my mindset to change something that someone dislikes is irrelevant when you made a thread about change. It makes no sense because in fact if we're discussing change then yes my point is/was relevant.

It's like beating my head against a wall here.

If someone dislikes something but doesn't want to change it then shut up and keep it to yourself. No one wants to here babbling if you're not going to do something about it. It becomes pointless drivel.

[Mikoh4792]

Oh daddy most of it is mikoh stomping because no one gets his point.... ever :p

Get my point!

[Mikoh4792]

The bold states you asked how the hobby can change for the "better".

The bold underline states that there's "no real change to be done."

You can't have it both ways. You aren't open to actual answers that differ from your view because you continually tell people that certain things aren't relevant when they are.

Case in point in a previous post you said my mindset to change something that someone dislikes is irrelevant when you made a thread about change. It makes no sense because in fact if we're discussing change then yes my point is/was relevant.

It's like beating my head against a wall here.

If someone dislikes something but doesn't want to change it then shut up and keep it to yourself. No one wants to here babbling if you're not going to do something about it. It becomes pointless drivel.


Sharing my view is one part of the question. My answer doesn't need to encompass all aspects of all three questions. This isn't an assignment. It's just an opener for conversation.

Giving my view does answer the first question, it doesn't go against anything to say that there is no real change to be done. That's just a change I'd like to see.

You see it as pointless, that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.


It's like beating my head against a wall here.

I feel the same way.

[lady_bug87]

Get my point!

have one first!

[Mikoh4792]

have one first!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gBOoWjU3wDI/UFdS9Y-9_wI/AAAAAAAADCQ/q-psML1GNqU/s1600/slow-clap-gif.gif

[Aaron_S]

Sharing my view is one part of the question. My answer doesn't need to encompass all aspects of all three questions. This isn't an assignment. It's just an opener for conversation.

Giving my view does answer the first question, it doesn't go against anything to say that there is no real change to be done. That's just a change I'd like to see.

You see it as pointless, that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.




I feel the same way.

Exactly.

You would like to see a change. Why not make that change yourself? This has been my whole point and you have claimed for pages that you didn't want change.

Quit flip flopping. It's fine to have an opinion but because someone doesn't agree don't back pedal.

This has been my point the entire time.

Before I said a word this was very much a "I dislike the morphs blah blah blah" thread. Sure dislike it. That's fine but no one should be rude about it and call everyone interested in it a "pokemon collector". It's ignorant to assume someone's mentality.

Further, my point was to all those people who dislike seeing all those morphs at shows to stop whining about it on the internet and just do something about it.

For example, I wanted to see more rough scale sand boas so I went and bought a few pairs. I didn't complain that I didn't see any. I found them and bought them.

[thawes]

I wouldn't change too much...I would however like to see less fear mongering created by misinformed media, I would also like to see more parents keeping open minds towards letting their children enjoy reptiles (it's an excellent learning experience in so many ways). Besides all the hate and infighting we see within online forums, I think this "hobby" is moving forward positively. Whether you're a field herper, keeper, or breeder, it's something you do that you enjoy!


I have been in this hobby for a really long time and I have yet to ever run into some 12 year old with a breeding project.

Although you might not run into them, they're out there. My oldest boy (10), has been around reptiles his whole life and has a couple projects up his sleeve. I also know a young girl who has a few corn snake clutches under her belt.

Cheers
Terry

[Mikoh4792]

Exactly.

You would like to see a change. Why not make that change yourself? This has been my whole point and you have claimed for pages that you didn't want change.

Quit flip flopping. It's fine to have an opinion but because someone doesn't agree don't back pedal.

This has been my point the entire time.

Before I said a word this was very much a "I dislike the morphs blah blah blah" thread. Sure dislike it. That's fine but no one should be rude about it and call everyone interested in it a "pokemon collector". It's ignorant to assume someone's mentality.

Further, my point was to all those people who dislike seeing all those morphs at shows to stop whining about it on the internet and just do something about it.

For example, I wanted to see more rough scale sand boas so I went and bought a few pairs. I didn't complain that I didn't see any. I found them and bought them.

Whatever man, I'm done arguing with you. You are full of lies.

I claimed to not want change? Back pedal? No I want change, I'd like to see change. It's just so minor and trivial. It's not worth it!

get this through your skull^. It's just a complaint I make during conversation like a salty meal. " This is a bit salty". I still eat the plate!



Ah I see. So the reason you're being annoying is because you are butthurt over the collector's item comment. You have no real reason to argue other than being personally hurt. Well I'm sorry and I apologize. I can see why you were doing nothing but ad-hominem attacks this whole time. It was kind of a "get back at me" kind of thing. It's okay you won. Happy? I'm not going to keep my opinion to myself. That's what this thread is about. Discussion. If you get butt-hurt not my problem. Grow some thicker skin.


edit: where did you get pokemon? LOL

[formica]

My point is simple. People came to this thread and belittled MY hobby. I defended it.

and FYI this "discussion" has been going on for YEARS. When does action occur?

Here are two instances where I was involved in the discussion. You can stop trying to paint me in one particular light that you see me in.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/900946-post39.html

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/900945-post38.html

I await my apology for lying about me and my participation in the discussion.

neither of those links are about this topic.

this is not YOUR hobby, it is all of ours, and nothing ever progresses without criticism, i dont see why you feel the need to take it personally and then attack everyone who points out things which need to be pointed out....because currently, people are happy to just forget those problems exist. Its really no wonder there are so many direct action and lobby groups attacking OUR hobby.

[Mikoh4792]

neither of those links are about this topic.

this is not YOUR hobby, it is all of ours, and nothing ever progresses without criticism, i dont see why you feel the need to take it personally and then attack everyone who points out things which need to be pointed out....because currently, people are happy to just forget those problems exist. Its really no wonder there are so many direct action and lobby groups attacking OUR hobby.

It's alright, there's no need to continue this. This back and forth started from him feeling personally attacked at people criticizing the ball python morph craze. Whatever you or I say will not make him stop. I've tried to make him understand that the point of my statements were to just express my opinions but apparently he felt attacked and wants me to feel bad for not "doing anything about it".

He labels it "complaining, "whining", "lazy" when I'm just expressing my thoughts on a thread.

[poison123]

I would like to see less BP's and leos at shows and more frogs.

[KORBIN5895]

I would like to see less BP's and leos at shows and more frogs.

Me too! Frogs are delicious!

[Brylee1233]

Me too! Frogs are delicious!\]

I saw the coolest frog at the last show i went to... But I can't remember the name for it... :( it was a bigger frog and the guy told me that it was like a waxy frog (?) so you can hold them... it was about 90 dollars... Either way... If I could, I would get a frog like that next...

[KORBIN5895]

neither of those links are about this topic.

this is not YOUR hobby, it is all of ours, and nothing ever progresses without criticism, i dont see why you feel the need to take it personally and then attack everyone who points out things which need to be pointed out....because currently, people are happy to just forget those problems exist. Its really no wonder there are so many direct action and lobby groups attacking OUR hobby.

Wow...... Apparently you have a hard time putting coherent thoughts in order. Aaron is advocating for people to go out and so something about what they perceive to be a problem and not to just ignore it....

[poison123]

\]

I saw the coolest frog at the last show i went to... But I can't remember the name for it... :( it was a bigger frog and the guy told me that it was like a waxy frog (?) so you can hold them... it was about 90 dollars... Either way... If I could, I would get a frog like that next...

Guessing you mean bicolor tree frog/ giant waxy monkey tree frog -phyllomedusa bicolor (the one in my avatar). Wouldnt recommend them as they are all WC and can be very hard to get acclimated to captivity.

[poison123]

Me too! Frogs are delicious!

Never was a fan of frog legs.

[lady_bug87]

I would like to see less BP's and leos at shows and more frogs.

That was Aaron's point. If you want to see something new, make it happen. Don't wait for someone else to do all the work for you.

[poison123]

Don't wait for someone else to do all the work for you.

eh. Its easier if I just let someone else do it . I'm not in a hurry.

[lady_bug87]

eh. Its easier if I just let someone else do it . I'm not in a hurry.

If you have no intention of doing anything you forfeit the right to complain.

[poison123]

If you have no intention of doing anything you forfeit the right to complain.

Didnt know thats how things worked?

I'm selfish ;)

[lady_bug87]

Didnt know thats how things worked?

The way I see it its only fair, you want someone else to invest the money in a species you want to see, they spend the time and resources raising it and breeding it, then buy a table at a show spending more time and more money just so you can walk by a table and say "oh cool a frog"

[poison123]

you want someone else to invest the money in a species you want to see, they spend the time and resources raising it and breeding it, then buy a table at a show spending more time and more money just so you can walk by a table and say "oh cool a frog"

Yeah thats pretty much it. May talk to the vendor about it and take some pics as well.

Thats what I would like to see.

[lady_bug87]

Yeah thats pretty much it. May talk to the vendor about it and take some pics as well.

Thats what I would like to see.

You suck! :wacky:

[poison123]

Just a selfish I can live with.

Ah see what I did there? ^ I'm good huh?

[Brylee1233]

Guessing you mean bicolor tree frog/ giant waxy monkey tree frog -phyllomedusa bicolor (the one in my avatar). Wouldnt recommend them as they are all WC and can be very hard to get acclimated to captivity.

Oh.. I see... I didn't do any research on them because I don't want to get to "attached" because I can't get one for a long time.... But thank you!

[lady_bug87]

Just a selfish I can live with.

Ah see what I did there? ^ I'm good huh?

Not nearly as good as you think...

[Aaron_S]

Whatever man, I'm done arguing with you. You are full of lies.

I claimed to not want change? Back pedal? No I want change, I'd like to see change. It's just so minor and trivial. It's not worth it!

get this through your skull^. It's just a complaint I make during conversation like a salty meal. " This is a bit salty". I still eat the plate!



Ah I see. So the reason you're being annoying is because you are butthurt over the collector's item comment. You have no real reason to argue other than being personally hurt. Well I'm sorry and I apologize. I can see why you were doing nothing but ad-hominem attacks this whole time. It was kind of a "get back at me" kind of thing. It's okay you won. Happy? I'm not going to keep my opinion to myself. That's what this thread is about. Discussion. If you get butt-hurt not my problem. Grow some thicker skin.


edit: where did you get pokemon? LOL

1. I didn't lie. I don't need to. It's in your own posts.

2. This is all personal is it not? Was this not about what we want to change? I personally don't care who hates ball pythons but it's silly to attack it and then not want to try and change it. My point is specifically about expos. If people want to see something different then go and change that. It doesn't take anyone specifically to change that.

3. Sorry you took these all as personal attacks. They aren't. They are showing how your point may or may not be valid. Nothing personal on my part because I simply don't care about you enough to take it that way.

4. Pokemon part came from someone's post. Maybe if you actually read everything in your thread about change.

5. To you specifically, you made a thread about change. You then told everyone what you'd like to see changed. You then said you aren't anyone within a poisiton to make the change so why should you? You also said you don't care to change it but yet want to complain or "discuss" it.
If you care enough to "discuss" or complain about it then you care enough to change it.

In regards to your meal analogy. Going forward are you going to continue to make that same meal with as much salt or will you tone it down next time? Why would you make the same thing again knowing you prefer it with less salt?

It's the same thing here.

My mindset is if you want to complain about something needing change then go and do it. No one is stopping anyone from achieving that goal. I proved it when I, myself took on a role to support local bylaw changes enough to go to meetings.
You probably don't see how this matters in regards to change since you said it's irrelevant after bringing it to this thread...

Edit: This isn't about "winning" any argument. It's to tell people if they want something changed that they themselves can do it! That it IS possible for any hobbyiest, breeder or otherwise to change something on any kind of scale.

[Aaron_S]

neither of those links are about this topic.

this is not YOUR hobby, it is all of ours, and nothing ever progresses without criticism, i dont see why you feel the need to take it personally and then attack everyone who points out things which need to be pointed out....because currently, people are happy to just forget those problems exist. Its really no wonder there are so many direct action and lobby groups attacking OUR hobby.

The topic is about change? How were those not about change? I answered someone's further inquiry into changing a specific topic in the current hobby.

Are you now telling me what I can and cannot discuss and how it's irrelavent to what YOU want to talk about? Nothing has to be railroaded into a specific topic...if it was considered detrimental to the conversation then the mods would deal with it.

[Aaron_S]

eh. Its easier if I just let someone else do it . I'm not in a hurry.

SO what you're saying is you expect someone else to do it. It hasn't happened yet and you think someone is just going to go and do it all for you. The sadder part is you won't even support that person. You said you'd take a pic (because you're cheap) and not support what YOU YOURSELF wanted to see changed! So what kind of encouragement is it to that person to continue that? Absolutely none.

Most likely it isn't going to happen if it hasn't already. It isn't like frogs are something brand new...

My expectation (and I guess that's where I was wrong in actually having any) is that this thread wouldn't just be complaints. It would spark discussion on what someone can do and was going to go do.

Instead we got people (and I use that term lightly) complaining about this and that (mostly common morph animals as per the usual) and expecting someone else to fix things because this that or the other thing.

This is why we have the government making and passing laws. The mindset is always "someone else will do it for me".

The truth is no one else is. Yes there are groups out there but they need actually support. Not some random petition (they don't work) with random names from places that are a 1000 miles away (politicians seriously don't care about those people).
The sadder truth is when I went to those meetings there were very few people in attendance for any support. It's sad that the giant keepers never showed up either.

I agree with Lori. If you aren't willling to do anything about it then you forfeit the right to complain.

Just like those people who don't vote but complain about the elected official.

[poison123]

SO what you're saying is you expect someone else to do it.

Not expecting anything but I would like it if this happened.

It hasn't happened yet and you think someone is just going to go and do it all for you. The sadder part is you won't even support that person. You said you'd take a pic (because you're cheap) and not support what YOU YOURSELF wanted to see changed! So what kind of encouragement is it to that person to continue that? Absolutely none.

Don't know why words are being put in my mouth now. I don't think anybody is going to do it for me. I said no such thing. All I said was "I would like to see". If someone did what I liked then I would support them by saying "good job" or a pat on the back if thats what you would like? May purchase the animal depending on what we're talking about.

[poison123]

My original post was not a complaint in any way. I just stated what I would like to see. No problem if something changes or not.

[psychocircus]

ITT: A couple of people don't believe in freedom of speech.

ITT: A couple people have never complained about anything before.

[Aaron_S]

Not expecting anything but I would like it if this happened.



Don't know why words are being put in my mouth now. I don't think anybody is going to do it for me. I said no such thing....

Huh? How about that? I put words into mouths.

eh. Its easier if I just let someone else do it . I'm not in a hurry.

There's your quote saying you will "let" someone else do it because it's easier for you.

Fairly certain that means you think someone else will.

Another point I was trying to make earlier is exactly what you said about supporting someone. You will say "good job" like a lot of other people who wish to see something "different" at a show.
You all literally mean "see" something. You're using someone else's time, money and effort for you to have a cheap zoo experience. Quit complaining about it unless you plan to do something about it.

[Aaron_S]

ITT: A couple of people don't believe in freedom of speech.

ITT: A couple people have never complained about anything before.

I don't complain unless I'm willing to change something or because I have the right to complain as I took part in something. IE. when I vote and the elected official isn't the one I voted for so therefore I can complain when they are idiots.

[poison123]

Huh? How about that? I put words into mouths.



There's your quote saying you will "let" someone else do it because it's easier for you.

Fairly certain that means you think someone else will.

Another point I was trying to make earlier is exactly what you said about supporting someone. You will say "good job" like a lot of other people who wish to see something "different" at a show.
You all literally mean "see" something. You're using someone else's time, money and effort for you to have a cheap zoo experience. Quit complaining about it unless you plan to do something about it.

Haha. Aaron, ever feel like you take peoples post on the internet to seriously?

Again I did not say I think someone else will. I'm more so hoping they will. Even if I do think someone else will I still don't see a problem with waiting for someone else to spend the money. Seems like a smart way to go in my eyes ;).

Again I was not complaining about a single thing.

Quit complaining about it unless you plan to do something about it.

Not how the world works.

I don't plan on doing a single thing about it but I wont stop stating what I would like to see. And that is more unusual animals and less boring ball pythons.

[psychocircus]

I don't complain unless I'm willing to change something or because I have the right to complain as I took part in something. IE. when I vote and the elected official isn't the one I voted for so therefore I can complain when they are idiots.

Never complained about something someone said or did? Never complained about a rough day of work? Never complained when something didn't go as planned? Okay

Haha. Aaron, ever feel like you take peoples post on the internet to seriously?

Again I did not say I think someone else will. I'm more so hoping they will. Even if I do think someone else will I still don't see a problem with waiting for someone else to spend the money. Seems like a smart way to go in my eyes ;).

Again I was not complaining about a single thing.



Not how the world works.

I don't plan on doing a single thing about it but I wont stop stating what I would like to see. And that is more unusual animals and less boring ball pythons.
Exactly. No one is saying they're upset about the ball pythons. It's just something they would think would be cool if it was different. Nothing to get worked up about. This is a DISCUSSION board after all.

[limey]

My impression, other than agreeing with what others have said is this:

- Yes, too many people are crazy about these man-made "morphs". To quote a friend of mine "Morphs generally tend to attract the wrong type of people to the hobby".

- Wild phase animals are the most beautiful - they are what mother nature created, they have natural beauty and not been manipulated or selectively bred by humans to achieve a certain desired look or effect. Therefore, any upstanding naturalist should consider "normals" to be a staple of their "collection". If hoarding is what you are in to.

- There is a very small percentage of keepers that actually know what they are talking about, through and through. And of those that do, there is a tendency towards condescension of other reptile keepers. Such has been the occasional history on this forum (people butting heads, telling others they are wrong, or they know best etc).

All in all, there does tend to be a lot of reptile keepers with superiority complexes. That is one thing I would change - make more keepers "down to earth".

Outside the hobby itself - I would like to see more knowledge of reptiles throughout the world in general. To change social perceptions and our understanding of snakes. So many clueless or fearful people out there. It blows my mind.

[psychocircus]

My impression, other than agreeing with what others have said is this:

- Yes, too many people are crazy about these man-made "morphs". To quote a friend of mine "Morphs generally tend to attract the wrong type of people to the hobby".

- Wild phase animals are the most beautiful - they are what mother nature created, they have natural beauty and not been manipulated or selectively bred by humans to achieve a certain desired look or effect. Therefore, any upstanding naturalist should consider "normals" to be a staple of their "collection". If hoarding is what you are in to.

- There is a very small percentage of keepers that actually know what they are talking about, through and through. And of those that do, there is a tendency towards condescension of other reptile keepers. Such has been the occasional history on this forum (people butting heads, telling others they are wrong, or they know best etc).

All in all, there does tend to be a lot of reptile keepers with superiority complexes. That is one thing I would change - make more keepers "down to earth".

Outside the hobby itself - I would like to see more knowledge of reptiles throughout the world in general. To change social perceptions and our understanding of snakes. So many clueless or fearful people out there. It blows my mind.

Well said. I agree with everything you said

[Mikoh4792]

1. I didn't lie. I don't need to. It's in your own posts.

2. This is all personal is it not? Was this not about what we want to change? I personally don't care who hates ball pythons but it's silly to attack it and then not want to try and change it. My point is specifically about expos. If people want to see something different then go and change that. It doesn't take anyone specifically to change that.

3. Sorry you took these all as personal attacks. They aren't. They are showing how your point may or may not be valid. Nothing personal on my part because I simply don't care about you enough to take it that way.

4. Pokemon part came from someone's post. Maybe if you actually read everything in your thread about change.

5. To you specifically, you made a thread about change. You then told everyone what you'd like to see changed. You then said you aren't anyone within a poisiton to make the change so why should you? You also said you don't care to change it but yet want to complain or "discuss" it.
If you care enough to "discuss" or complain about it then you care enough to change it.

In regards to your meal analogy. Going forward are you going to continue to make that same meal with as much salt or will you tone it down next time? Why would you make the same thing again knowing you prefer it with less salt?

It's the same thing here.

My mindset is if you want to complain about something needing change then go and do it. No one is stopping anyone from achieving that goal. I proved it when I, myself took on a role to support local bylaw changes enough to go to meetings.
You probably don't see how this matters in regards to change since you said it's irrelevant after bringing it to this thread...

Edit: This isn't about "winning" any argument. It's to tell people if they want something changed that they themselves can do it! That it IS possible for any hobbyiest, breeder or otherwise to change something on any kind of scale.

Well I did say numerous times I was going to quit arguing with you, but if theres one thing that riles me up, it's intellectual dishonesty.

You did lie. You claimed I back pedaled by saying I don't want change, and then I do want change. This never happened.




This is basically where our argument took off on the morph craze subject.


Here's a good question, instead of complaining about it on the internet, what are you currently doing to change it?

Not exactly complaining, just expressing my views on the forum. Do I need to take action for every view I have? I personally don't see the overwhelming number of ball pythons at expos as a big deal. It's just something I'm stating while we are on the subject.

I'll just leave it at that.

[Terranaut]

This is why I avoided this thread altogether.

[poison123]

This is why I avoided this thread altogether.

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude :p

[Mikoh4792]

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude :p

Yeah me too. That guy keeps expressing his views in a thread about epressing views. When is he going to shut up and do something about it?

[AussieSnake]

Really glad we don't have Ball pythons in Australia (legal ones at least) if this is the uproar they cause. Phew:p Its good to read a thread like this though as I think the hobby in Australia is probably at a stage that North America was 10-15 years ago, we are starting to see the emergence of larger breeders and new morphs, we are still restricted by government laws in different states though around what can be sold and how. I hope the hobby stays a hobby, that's my view.

[Mikoh4792]

Really glad we don't have Ball pythons in Australia (legal ones at least) if this is the uproar they cause. Phew:p Its good to read a thread like this though as I think the hobby in Australia is probably at a stage that North America was 10-15 years ago, we are starting to see the emergence of larger breeders and new morphs, we are still restricted by government laws in different states though around what can be sold and how. I hope the hobby stays a hobby, that's my view.

to tell you the truth it's not really an uproar. I think most people are fine with it, some people like me are a bit annoyed by it but it's not a big deal.

The only uproar is when I state my opinions and people tell me I have no right to unless I take action. Like really? Okay there are too many ball pythons at expos, how about I just won't go to them. I'm not going to try to be a hero and change the scene. Let the people do what they want. If everyone wants to breed ball pythons and have nothing but ball pythons at expos....let it be. I'll just say I don't like it and stand back.

Same with drugs. If people want to take heroin let em. I don't like it. I'll say I don't like it. But I'm not going to try and be a hero and because a heroin addict tells me " If you don't like people taking heroin, do something about it!"

The ball python morph craze is much more trivial than that.

With a thread started originally for sharing views, it became into a multi-page long defense of myself for wanting to share our views without calling eachother out on complaining, being lazy...etc.

[KORBIN5895]

My impression, other than agreeing with what others have said is this:

- Yes, too many people are crazy about these man-made "morphs". To quote a friend of mine "Morphs generally tend to attract the wrong type of people to the hobby".


Morphs aren't "man made" they are genetic deformities that exist in nature. The reason we have them in the hobby is because they survived long enough to A) pass on their genes or B) to be captured and imported.

- Wild phase animals are the most beautiful - they are what mother nature created, they have natural beauty and not been manipulated or selectively bred by humans to achieve a certain desired look or effect. Therefore, any upstanding naturalist should consider "normals" to be a staple of their "collection". If hoarding is what you are in to.

This is all purely a personal opinion and some serious misinformation. All of the mutations are created by "mother nature", hence why almost all morphs were actually WC and imported.

My personal opinion is that leopard boas are the most beautiful boa their is available. The leopard gene comes from a specific location where they are found in the wild.


- There is a very small percentage of keepers that actually know what they are talking about, through and through. And of those that do, there is a tendency towards condescension of other reptile keepers. Such has been the occasional history on this forum (people butting heads, telling others they are wrong, or they know best etc).

All in all, there does tend to be a lot of reptile keepers with superiority complexes. That is one thing I would change - make more keepers "down to earth".
.
You're right about a very small percentage of keepers actually knowing what they are talking about. Most keepers know next to nothing about what they are talking about yet will argue and fight tooth and nail because they truly believe they are right. That is what breeds the feelings of condescension from the learned. We have to literally pounds the message home and work continually to keep bad information from spreading and quite frankly it gets old real quick.

[AussieSnake]

Fair Point. I have seen similar threads started on Australian forums, and similar stuff happens. A lot of people get into a 15 page dialogue around who's view is right etc etc.
But I do find that the common thread to it all is money. In any popular or growing hobby/industry, their will be people/companies that benefit from the growth, and their contribution to the hobby is always questioned (sometimes rightfully so).
My belief is my hobby is for me, I do what I want without the influence of the fads and crazes. My animals are mine to care for and any advances in husbandry, as well as legislation is great, and if there was any sort of organisation in Australia that spoke up for the reptile hobby in Australia I would support them, if the benefits were for everyone, not just those with the most to gain. I don't think a personal hobby is there for anyone to change. I will agree with you on that, if it is your hobby you don't have to change anything for anyone.

P.S - By the looks of your avatar Mikoh, your Morelia don't get outside much. LOL:D

[AussieSnake]

[QUOTE=KORBIN5895;901737]Morphs aren't "man made" they are genetic deformities that exist in nature. The reason we have them in the hobby is because they survived long enough to A) pass on their genes or B) to be captured and imported.


This may be true for colours and patterns, but what about the jag gene in Morelia species, I can't say that you would see too many neuro cases surviving long in the wild? I'm not 100%, but I wouldn't be betting my house that the first jag was found on a branch in North Queensland.:suspicious:

[KORBIN5895]

[QUOTE=KORBIN5895;901737]Morphs aren't "man made" they are genetic deformities that exist in nature. The reason we have them in the hobby is because they survived long enough to A) pass on their genes or B) to be captured and imported.


This may be true for colours and patterns, but what about the jag gene in Morelia species, I can't say that you would see too many neuro cases surviving long in the wild? I'm not 100%, but I wouldn't be betting my house that the first jag was found on a branch in North Queensland.:suspicious:

Isn't the jag gene a co-dominant gene? If so then it would've had to have been a WC.

Spider bp are a dominant gene and the first one was a WC. Spiders also have a head wobble.

[Snakefood]

WOW, what a read!! I have actually read every post here and here is my personal opinion.

I LOVE MORPHS!!!! I love Cornsnake morphs, I love Ball Python morphs, I love Boa morphs, I think they are beautiful and yes, I do breed them. I breed for the ones I find beautiful, different and amazing. Now if someone else likes them and buys them from me, great!! I don't care what is the "most popular" I breed what catches my eye!!

I personally think that this hobby would be incredibly boring if there were only the "normal" in any species.

I feel for those of you who's local expo's are over-run by one species, thankfully our local expo is extremely varied, We get to see many different species of snakes, Gecko's, lizards, frogs and Arachnids. I guess we're just lucky that way.

As for morph's being "man-made" that is ridiculous!! The originals of these "morphs" are genetic anomalies in the wild, captured and bred into the captive population. The most recent that I am aware of is the "Palmetto Corn", a fully grown, mature male was captured IN THE WILD, and bought by a breeder who then bred that male into his captive collection. (again, my opinion, these Palmettos are GORGEOUS!!)

To answer the original question of "My view of the reptile Hobby": My view is that individual people all have individual ideas of what they love about their chosen species, and that is what makes us such a varied population. And I love it!!

"What would I change??" well I can't remember who actually said it (it was many pages ago now!) but I would change the way pet stores sell their reptiles. In my personal experience, the owners of these stores (I am sure there are exceptions) don't care about giving proper information on care and husbandry, they care about their profit margins. To give an example: a local pet store sells snakes and other reptiles, I was looking for a part-time job that I would enjoy and because of my experience with most of the species of snakes he sold, he hired me on. However, whenever I gave a customer good advice on husbandry, I would get pulled aside and told to say something different. "Why", you ask?? Because the proper advice that I gave on the care of these beautiful creatures did not always make him the most $$. I was told to "stop thinking like a breeder and to start thinking like a sales person" I don't think I need to add that I no longer work there, I have gone back into the office where I make $$, and I keep my collection of snakes, I breed them, aiming for the morphs I WANT to create, and they are properly cared for.

IMO...... MISINFORMATION (whether purposeful or not) is what needs to be changed and bettered in this hobby, not whether or not X and Y person(s) are breeding morphs rather than Normals.

[AussieSnake]

I don't argue that the original gene occurred naturally in an individual snake, however I believe the first jag was bred overseas, not in Australia, so therefore it was through a selective breeding process in captivity. If this mating was to occur naturally in the wild (which I doubt), I don't think you would have too many surviving. As stated, I'm no expert, just my 2 cents.

Anyway this is off subject from the thread, sorry for any derailing.

[Mikoh4792]

WOW, what a read!! I have actually read every post here and here is my personal opinion.

I LOVE MORPHS!!!! I love Cornsnake morphs, I love Ball Python morphs, I love Boa morphs, I think they are beautiful and yes, I do breed them. I breed for the ones I find beautiful, different and amazing. Now if someone else likes them and buys them from me, great!! I don't care what is the "most popular" I breed what catches my eye!!

I personally think that this hobby would be incredibly boring if there were only the "normal" in any species.

I feel for those of you who's local expo's are over-run by one species, thankfully our local expo is extremely varied, We get to see many different species of snakes, Gecko's, lizards, frogs and Arachnids. I guess we're just lucky that way.

As for morph's being "man-made" that is ridiculous!! The originals of these "morphs" are genetic anomalies in the wild, captured and bred into the captive population. The most recent that I am aware of is the "Palmetto Corn", a fully grown, mature male was captured IN THE WILD, and bought by a breeder who then bred that male into his captive collection. (again, my opinion, these Palmettos are GORGEOUS!!)

To answer the original question of "My view of the reptile Hobby": My view is that individual people all have individual ideas of what they love about their chosen species, and that is what makes us such a varied population. And I love it!!

"What would I change??" well I can't remember who actually said it (it was many pages ago now!) but I would change the way pet stores sell their reptiles. In my personal experience, the owners of these stores (I am sure there are exceptions) don't care about giving proper information on care and husbandry, they care about their profit margins. To give an example: a local pet store sells snakes and other reptiles, I was looking for a part-time job that I would enjoy and because of my experience with most of the species of snakes he sold, he hired me on. However, whenever I gave a customer good advice on husbandry, I would get pulled aside and told to say something different. "Why", you ask?? Because the proper advice that I gave on the care of these beautiful creatures did not always make him the most $$. I was told to "stop thinking like a breeder and to start thinking like a sales person" I don't think I need to add that I no longer work there, I have gone back into the office where I make $$, and I keep my collection of snakes, I breed them, aiming for the morphs I WANT to create, and they are properly cared for.

IMO...... MISINFORMATION (whether purposeful or not) is what needs to be changed and bettered in this hobby, not whether or not X and Y person(s) are breeding morphs rather than Normals.

Great post! You and I have differing opinions but I won't chastise you for them! It's all about discussion and I just started this thread to know where people's heads are at about this topic.

[Snakefood]

Great post! You and I have differing opinions but I won't chastise you for them! It's all about discussion and I just started this thread to know where people's heads are at about this topic.


Well, that's where my head is at, some will call me selfish for breeding the morphs I find attractive....koodos for them, that's their opinion and everyone is welcome to have one!!

Don't get me wrong, I love the normals too, I have an Okeetee Corn (which is actually considered a normal, (and NO I don't know if it is a Locality Okeetee or not) And I have 2 Columbian Red tail Boa's, and I have 5 Normal BP's in my collection. But I also have some AMAZING morph BP's and am gearing up for 2 awesome projects with Cornsnakes!! (Oh and I would so love a Salmon Boa..... GORGEOUS!!):D

[CosmicOwl]

The only thing that bugs me about morphs is when people breed them just to throw as many morphs into an animal as possible. Think about how many corn snakes are just a slightly different version of pink. It would nice to see more people selecting localities and line breeding animals to get things like the extreme Okeetees, which have a really distinctive look.

[Snakefood]

But it isn't always about throwing as many morphs into one snake, it is (at least for me) what morphs is it going to take to reach my goal, sometimes it's two, sometimes it's 4. Sometimes it takes one generation, sometimes it takes 3. I really like high contrast snakes, which is why I like the Okeetee and Palmetto Corns. Although I also really like the Coral snows and Orchids, which even though they don't have a lot of contrast, their coloring is beautiful.

There is one BP morph that I have only seen one person produce, In some future season, I would like to start on that project, it is going to take 4 different morphs and 3 generations, but I believe it will be worth it in the end. I don't care how many morphs' genes are in the snake, be it 1 or 5, I just love the colors/patterns that are in the one snake that comes out in the end!!

[smy_749]

Morphs are man-made after you go past the basic morphs. There is 0% chance you would get high-way ball python or a Puma or whatever else, I can't think of complicated morphs off the top of my head but you get the point. Multiple gene animals like we see in the industry have a TINY chance of occurring naturally. Yellow gene and blue gene are wild, making painting on a canvas with yellow/blue/green/(whatever else those combinations can make) in a striped or banded pattern is different.

[Terranaut]

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude :p
No........

Very few people here can "discuss". Most choose to "argue".

[Snakefood]

Morphs are man-made after you go past the basic morphs. There is 0% chance you would get high-way ball python or a Puma or whatever else, I can't think of complicated morphs off the top of my head but you get the point. Multiple gene animals like we see in the industry have a TINY chance of occurring naturally. Yellow gene and blue gene are wild, making painting on a canvas with yellow/blue/green/(whatever else those combinations can make) in a striped or banded pattern is different.


Very true. But then again, we can say the same (speaking genetically only) about every species of dog in the world. none of them would have been created without humans keeping and breeding the "Morphs" (for lack of a better term) How else would a maltese have been bred down form wolves and dingos??

For many of us, breeding for a specific "look" IS part of the hobby. And as far as I am concerned, as long as the animals are kept and fed properly, then that's OK.

[psychocircus]

Very true. But then again, we can say the same (speaking genetically only) about every species of dog in the world. none of them would have been created without humans keeping and breeding the "Morphs" (for lack of a better term) How else would a maltese have been bred down form wolves and dingos??

For many of us, breeding for a specific "look" IS part of the hobby. And as far as I am concerned, as long as the animals are kept and fed properly, then that's OK.

good point.
and keeping them purebred makes them much more susceptible to certain predisposed diseases/health issues.
for example flat face dogs often have respiratory issues, certain shepherds have hip dysplasia, etc.

It goes back to humans being selfish to meet their needs. Most bp morphs are no less "healthy" than the originals though.

[Snakefood]

good point.
and keeping them purebred makes them much more susceptible to certain predisposed diseases/health issues.
for example flat face dogs often have respiratory issues, certain shepherds have hip dysplasia, etc.

It goes back to humans being selfish to meet their needs. Most bp morphs are no less "healthy" than the originals though.

Yes, that is very true, as a former vet tech, I could go on forever about breed specific illness and weaknesses. Of course humans have been breeding dogs to suit their purposes for thousands of years, so it is rarely thought of as breeding for certain characteristics anymore, it is just thought of as breeding your chosen breed never considering what the "normal" version was! (of course the Wolf, Coyote, Dingo and African Wild Dog)

And 1000 years from now, the same ideology will probably apply to the breeding of morphs in the reptile world.

I agree, humans are selfish by nature, but that is how we got to the top of the food chain(so to speak), it wasn't accomplished by thinking of others!!:eek:

[limey]

No........

Very few people here can "discuss". Most choose to "argue".

It would seem you are right.

I was just penalized like a little boy for using the term "man-made" to describe most of the obscure morphs that exist in the snake hobby.

Well.. *sighs* I fail to believe that "lavender albino retics", for example, are all over the place in the jungles of Southeast Asia. Granted some genetic anomalies exist in nature, of course they do. However, most "morphs" we see today, most (not all) especially in the ball python arena were created by selective breeding, not by catching them in that state in the wild.

Selective breeding is done by humans. Human intervention is done by men. If something is done by men, it is man-made. Perhaps the term "man-made" is a little misleading. (However it could be used as a very simple, generic explanation - a term I might use to explain a bright yellow, black and orange ball python, for example, to an 8 year old kid that is under the impression that these snakes occur in that colour in the wild after he saw one at a show, or at the previous zoo I was head keeper of).

It is my opinion (and get this: opinion is what this thread is all about lol) that wild morphs are as "natural" as it gets. And therefore I like them best. Period. My opinion. No need to be offended, kiddies :)

But of course, it would seem that there are always those that wish to argue. Nitpick the little things and try to create an argument out of them.

It's hard to take the people on this forum too seriously though :)

Can't believe I just wasted 10 minutes of my life explaining myself to somebody I don't even know, or doesn't know me... lol...

Okay, back to more important things... bye for now :D

[Mikoh4792]

Yes, that is very true, as a former vet tech, I could go on forever about breed specific illness and weaknesses. Of course humans have been breeding dogs to suit their purposes for thousands of years, so it is rarely thought of as breeding for certain characteristics anymore, it is just thought of as breeding your chosen breed never considering what the "normal" version was! (of course the Wolf, Coyote, Dingo and African Wild Dog)

And 1000 years from now, the same ideology will probably apply to the breeding of morphs in the reptile world.

I agree, humans are selfish by nature, but that is how we got to the top of the food chain(so to speak), it wasn't accomplished by thinking of others!!:eek:

We have domesticated dogs descended from coyotes? What are the breeds?

I always thought they were all from wolves(or most of them at least)

[Snakefood]

Well actually, all domestic dogs have the genes of every canine that originally existed before human intervention.

They say that all dogs share 99.9% of their genetic makeup with wolves, because in truth 35-50 thousand (obviously averaging it out here) years ago, it WAS only the wolf in existence, then land masses parted and came together, the wolves prey migrated to new lands and environments, which the wolves followed and then natural evolution occurred. Therefore coyotes, dingoes and African wild dogs came into existence because those wolves evolved to survive their new environments.

So, when humans intervened and took "this" canine and "that" canine and bred them, then selected the best looking ones or the best suited ones for the humans needs, that was the start of humans creating "breeds" of dogs. Yes, depending on where geographically you are, you will find the genes to the "wild" type dog within the genetic makeup of todays canine companions.

And it is still done today, here in BC we have many wolf and coyote hybrids, usually crossed with shepherds or husky's, but I have seen others too.

So to answer your actual question.........all breeds have at least a very minute percentage of Coyote, Dingo, or African wild dog in them. You just don't hear about it because the wolf was THE FIRST original wild canine!!

[Mikoh4792]

Learning new things everyday! Hard to imagine how a little Chihuahua came from all that day in such a short time.

[LiL Zap]

One thing that really angers me is selling a reptile to someone who cannot adequately care for it. For example, at a reptile show back in December I witnessed a chameleon breeder sell a specimen to a family with a small boy. Immediately, the small boy began playing with the chameleon like a small toy. My coworker who went to the show with me informed the family that chameleons stress easily and aren't really animals to handle. The family had no idea of this and actually had never owned a reptile before. This really boils my blood because a chameleon (in my opinion) is an advanced animal to own and you can't just hand them off to someone who has the money for one. I hope that chameleon is alive today but I'm also a realistic person and most likely...it has passed away due to ignorance of some people.

I just wish vendors, pet shops and whoever sells reptiles would just educate the potential buyer thoroughly and if that person doesn't get the grasp of caring for that particular reptile...they should refuse the sale. I'm going to jump off a cliff if I see one more damn chameleon sold to a 10 year old kid or pretty much ANY advance or intermediate level reptile sold to someone who just cannot care for it properly.

Great thread by the way!

[Mikoh4792]

One thing that really angers me is selling a reptile to someone who cannot adequately care for it. For example, at a reptile show back in December I witnessed a chameleon breeder sell a specimen to a family with a small boy. Immediately, the small boy began playing with the chameleon like a small toy. My coworker who went to the show with me informed the family that chameleons stress easily and aren't really animals to handle. The family had no idea of this and actually had never owned a reptile before. This really boils my blood because a chameleon (in my opinion) is an advanced animal to own and you can't just hand them off to someone who has the money for one. I hope that chameleon is alive today but I'm also a realistic person and most likely...it has passed away due to ignorance of some people.

I just wish vendors, pet shops and whoever sells reptiles would just educate the potential buyer thoroughly and if that person doesn't get the grasp of caring for that particular reptile...they should refuse the sale. I'm going to jump off a cliff if I see one more damn chameleon sold to a 10 year old kid or pretty much ANY advance or intermediate level reptile sold to someone who just cannot care for it properly.

Great thread by the way!

Happens all too often with animals that have special requirements. Like chameleons in your example, monitors...etc.

[LiL Zap]

Happens all too often with animals that have special requirements. Like chameleons in your example, monitors...etc.
I could go on and on about this issue. It's horrible.

[Sublimeballs]

Happens all too often with animals that have special requirements. Like chameleons in your example, monitors...etc.

Hots are ones that amaze me aswell. I got offered 2 western diamondbacks for $5(obviously didnt get them). But anyone over 18 can get 2 wdbs for $5 that's crazy.

[Mikoh4792]

Hots are ones that amaze me aswell. I got offered 2 western diamondbacks for $5(obviously didnt get them). But anyone over 18 can get 2 wdbs for $5 that's crazy.

5$?! Were they wild caught or something?

[sharthun]

Hots are ones that amaze me aswell. I got offered 2 western diamondbacks for $5(obviously didnt get them). But anyone over 18 can get 2 wdbs for $5 that's crazy.

Wow, now that's a recipe for disaster! :(

[psychocircus]

One thing that really angers me is selling a reptile to someone who cannot adequately care for it. For example, at a reptile show back in December I witnessed a chameleon breeder sell a specimen to a family with a small boy. Immediately, the small boy began playing with the chameleon like a small toy. My coworker who went to the show with me informed the family that chameleons stress easily and aren't really animals to handle. The family had no idea of this and actually had never owned a reptile before. This really boils my blood because a chameleon (in my opinion) is an advanced animal to own and you can't just hand them off to someone who has the money for one. I hope that chameleon is alive today but I'm also a realistic person and most likely...it has passed away due to ignorance of some people.

I just wish vendors, pet shops and whoever sells reptiles would just educate the potential buyer thoroughly and if that person doesn't get the grasp of caring for that particular reptile...they should refuse the sale. I'm going to jump off a cliff if I see one more damn chameleon sold to a 10 year old kid or pretty much ANY advance or intermediate level reptile sold to someone who just cannot care for it properly.

Great thread by the way!

absolutely. just goes back to it being all about the money. On the flip side, every potential pet owner should do extensive research on an animal (preferably before purchasing) even if you were informed by a pet store/breeder on basic care. I still agree with you though.

Happens all too often with animals that have special requirements. Like chameleons in your example, monitors...etc.

Makes my heart wrench every time I see savannah/nile monitors in a pet shop with only a uvb light, no heat, and a dry enclosure with crickets climbing all over their still bodies.

Hots are ones that amaze me aswell. I got offered 2 western diamondbacks for $5(obviously didnt get them). But anyone over 18 can get 2 wdbs for $5 that's crazy.
That's crazy. but at least people know the danger of these animals. Chances are they'd know what they're getting themselves into (doesn't mean they're prepared, I know) but MOST people have enough common sense to decline such an offer.

[Aaron_S]

I don't argue that the original gene occurred naturally in an individual snake, however I believe the first jag was bred overseas, not in Australia, so therefore it was through a selective breeding process in captivity. If this mating was to occur naturally in the wild (which I doubt), I don't think you would have too many surviving. As stated, I'm no expert, just my 2 cents.

Anyway this is off subject from the thread, sorry for any derailing.

I believe, don't quote me as I haven't read about it in awhile, but the jaguar carpet popped up in two animals (I don't know if they were WC or CBB when bred) in a collection in Europe.

It honestly doesn't matter how many live or die in the wild. An albino snake could be produced in every clutch in the wild but most die anyway due to the loss of camoflage. It's what makes them rare to find and then imported in the hopes the mutation is genetically inheritable through breeding.

[Sublimeballs]

Common sense is no longer common

Not sure if they were WC. But he had a ton of them.

[Terranaut]

My father is a retired auto mechanic. Our shop had a sign behind the cash that read " There is enough honest work out there you never have to rip anyone off". You can be a responsible breeder and make lits of money without doing what "the industry" does. This is setting people up with a snake and a couple hundred bucks worth of the wrong stuff knowing you will have issues and return for the right stuff. An example would be the plethora of people on this site alone that left Petco with a 20 gal screen top, a heat lamp, a bag of aspen, and a ball python. We need laws to regulate this practice. Knowingly putting the animal at risk to make a bit more cash due to ignorant buyers. Shameful.

[Mikoh4792]

I believe, don't quote me as I haven't read about it in awhile, but the jaguar carpet popped up in two animals (I don't know if they were WC or CBB when bred) in a collection in Europe.

It honestly doesn't matter how many live or die in the wild. An albino snake could be produced in every clutch in the wild but most die anyway due to the loss of camoflage. It's what makes them rare to find and then imported in the hopes the mutation is genetically inheritable through breeding.

some input on the jaguar gene

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/morelia-spilota/101670-carpet-boyfriend-2.html#post875260

[Mikoh4792]

We need laws to regulate this practice. Knowingly putting the animal at risk to make a bit more cash due to ignorant buyers. Shameful.

I agree, but what kind of regulations/laws would you like to see to prevent these kinds of problems?

[psychocircus]

I agree, but what kind of regulations/laws would you like to see to prevent these kinds of problems?

full description of care required from an employee
or at least a required handout of standardized care that comes with the animal.

[smy_749]

I agree, but what kind of regulations/laws would you like to see to prevent these kinds of problems?

I'm pretty sure in europe they have laws with regards to keeping reptiles, I.e. things like minimum cage sizes and what not. Thats what I read on facebook so it must be true.

[psychocircus]

I'm pretty sure in europe they have laws with regards to keeping reptiles, I.e. things like minimum cage sizes and what not. Thats what I read on facebook so it must be true.

they can't put anything on the internet that's not true.

but yeah I think it's only a couple countries but youre right.

[AussieSnake]

Some states in Australia now have mandatory enclosure sizes, these are a bit contentious though as it is hard to please everyone, you have those who are happy to have large display units, then those people with large collections who prefer rack systems. We also have rules around breeding between species (eg inter breeding between Morelia sub species). Unfortunately each state has different laws and none of them are really enforced correctly. For example technically jags are illegal in some states in Australia due to them being a breeding between sub species. For many years jags were only sold as RPM to get around this. I think regulation is important but it is difficult to find common ground between different sections of the hobby. And it seems you can never stop some individuals form indiscriminately breeding there animals for the heck of it, or to make a $$$$.

[Mikoh4792]

Some states in Australia now have mandatory enclosure sizes, these are a bit contentious though as it is hard to please everyone, you have those who are happy to have large display units, then those people with large collections who prefer rack systems. We also have rules around breeding between species (eg inter breeding between Morelia sub species). Unfortunately each state has different laws and none of them are really enforced correctly. For example technically jags are illegal in some states in Australia due to them being a breeding between sub species. For many years jags were only sold as RPM to get around this. I think regulation is important but it is difficult to find common ground between different sections of the hobby. And it seems you can never stop some individuals form indiscriminately breeding there animals for the heck of it, or to make a $$$$.

Aren't jags one subspecies?(from a coastal).

Those laws are pretty interesting. Is there a defined reason for why you can not produce intergrades in some states? Would it be illegal to cross naturally occurring intergrades such as coastal/jungles, coastal/diamonds...etc?