Varanids Counting and other intelligent things

[formica]

Apparently some Monitors can count (The Biology of Varanid Lizards - King/Green) - thats not something I expected to come across, I assumed they would be less intelligent than say Crows, but perhaps not? Crows are extremely intelligent of course

Anyone here tried any of the standard tests for intelligence on their varanids? lab testing and real world testing can throw up diffrent results, be interesting to hear how intelligent peoples monitors are :)

Lots of animal intelligence tests can be found around the web, tests for birds are a good place to start probably, test for dogs and cats may be pushing it a bit...although i'm pretty sure I have never owned a cat that could count lol

Also found notes on cooperation between individual monitors, working together to gain access to a food source in quite complex ways (one leads away female croc from nest, other one digs up nest while coast is clear) - any cohab monitors out there doing interesting things?

[infernalis]

watch this...

KckqWt1JU3s

http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/assets/img/posters/lizard-kings-vi.jpg

Varanidae Intelligence by Dr. Gordon Burghardt (http://www.varanid.us/intelligence.pdf) - Full PDF

ilPhdnnS4gE

[Mikoh4792]

although the first video was more impressive, the last one is definitely fascinating.

[Kera]

Those are awesome videos!

[formica]

awsome :D

will have to come up with some interesting things to build into my savs new enclosure to make his brain work a bit harder

[SnakeyJay]

Very impressive.. The sav in the first video, is that healthy? I don't keep varanids but it looks lethargic the way it drags it's body along rather than lifting to walk.

[formica]

was also intrigued to see another Sav eagerly drinking from a bowl of water - and the slight glimpse of the enclosure suggests it may be very dry, looks like paper towel and cork hides?

lets try not to derail the thread tho...this particular area has been well gone over and established

[formica]

Varanidae Intelligence by Dr. Gordon Burghardt (http://www.varanid.us/intelligence.pdf) - Full PDF

I've tried to load this pdf several times now, but it doesnt make any sense, i think something is wrong with the formatting? am I the only person having trouble with it?

[infernalis]

The PDF is fine, opened it twice from that link just now.

[Starbuck]

although the first video was more impressive, the last one is definitely fascinating.

Agreed!!! Barring any major F-ups on our part, it would be amazing to see how evolution treats monitors in the next million years or so... :)

[infernalis]

Very impressive.. The sav in the first video, is that healthy? I don't keep varanids but it looks lethargic the way it drags it's body along rather than lifting to walk.

You are not the first to notice. ;)

I feel the same way as do others.

[formica]

been thinking about things to build into the new enclosure, and things to test

building on the idea that some monitors can count, I wonder if it would be possible to get a monitor to work through say 2 or 3 levers, that have to be turned in a specific order, to get to a food item

and perhaps to test food preferences, and building on their ability to distinguish between different door triggers; say 3 levers, each a different color, and each opening one of 3 doors, each containing a different type of food - if they can learn that only one door will open each day, will they be choosy about which lever they press in order to access a certain type of food? probably easy to train, assuming that a monitor can be trained in this way...cats for eg, when presented with 3 doors where only one offers food, dont do well learning which one contains the food, unlike dogs, who learn quickly

Lastly, a small box, which can only be opened by carrying it up to a high point in the enclosure, and pushing it off, in order to ''break'' it and get to the food item...some challenges to over come in designing this kind of box and training the monitor to understand the process, but could be interesting

[Starbuck]

You can buy some of the tips youre talking about in specialty dog stores, if a German Shepard can't destroy it I doubt a sav will. Obviously wouldn't leave him alone work out at first to make sure it'ssafe, but will probably save you time and money.

[formica]

You can buy some of the tips youre talking about in specialty dog stores, if a German Shepard can't destroy it I doubt a sav will. Obviously wouldn't leave him alone work out at first to make sure it'ssafe, but will probably save you time and money.

not sure what a 'tip' is? had a search thru google without much luck, is it a toy of some kind which offers food rewards?

[mdfmonitor]

watch this...

KckqWt1JU3s

http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/assets/img/posters/lizard-kings-vi.jpg

Varanidae Intelligence by Dr. Gordon Burghardt (http://www.varanid.us/intelligence.pdf) - Full PDF

ilPhdnnS4gE

Wayne the 1st vid i hate & will always hate, poor animal.

last vid is great!! :)

[mdfmonitor]

Very impressive.. The sav in the first video, is that healthy? I don't keep varanids but it looks lethargic the way it drags it's body along rather than lifting to walk.

correct!! that's why i hate the vid, not the purpose.

[mdfmonitor]

My monitor will come to his name, especially now he's not been fed for two days!!


My monitor if fed 4 chicks on the run for about 4 days will look at me for a long time if fed 3 on the 5th day, this is why i swop food items around to stop the routine.

This is why i hide food items in the cage & still feed crickets even though he's 4.5 long, keep him looking & working for food.

I nearly got you a vid showing Lenny going in the direction on command, I've got him to do it a 3/3 times regularly, say forward he'll look forward & start walking forward & find a food reward, say behind he'd look behind & see or walk till he sees food reward, large locust worked best.

it is a case of catching him in the right mood, is he willing to corporate with me & certain food items worked best, he did it once off vid about 6/7 times, i've yet to film it, but i keeping having ago with it.

I'm sure he also watches my line of eye, because i'll look at insects that aren't moving that he can't see, i spend many hours just sat next to cage!!

the work out vid tests Lenny's brain & physical development, if the trap door was smoother & built better he'd open it every time for food, once he'd worked it out, no good to me i want those claws & forelimbs to work!!

you built a box & ticked all the boxes, now think what you can do to enhance their life experiences!! :)

[infernalis]

OtWXjjyG7fo

[SnakeyJay]

was also intrigued to see another Sav eagerly drinking from a bowl of water - and the slight glimpse of the enclosure suggests it may be very dry, looks like paper towel and cork hides?

lets try not to derail the thread tho...this particular area has been well gone over and established

It may be a "well gone over area" but it's more important than how intelligent they are... A dead monitor isn't very smart/intelligent lol..

You are not the first to notice. ;)

I feel the same way as do others.

Never watched any of his vids before, the study seems interesting but at the expense of health?... Any way I'll stop de-railing the thread.

[formica]

we all know how important it is, there is no need for every thread about monitors to go over the same thing over and over, at the expense of the topic at hand

[formica]

OtWXjjyG7fo

nice, although thats a monitor searching for food, which doesnt quite test its intelligence in the same way, i dont think its any more demanding that say digging around in the ground, following a scent trail and scratching around in leaves




monitor called munchkin, lol

[formica]

My monitor will come to his name, especially now he's not been fed for two days!!


My monitor if fed 4 chicks on the run for about 4 days will look at me for a long time if fed 3 on the 5th day, this is why i swop food items around to stop the routine.

This is why i hide food items in the cage & still feed crickets even though he's 4.5 long, keep him looking & working for food.

I nearly got you a vid showing Lenny going in the direction on command, I've got him to do it a 3/3 times regularly, say forward he'll look forward & start walking forward & find a food reward, say behind he'd look behind & see or walk till he sees food reward, large locust worked best.

it is a case of catching him in the right mood, is he willing to corporate with me & certain food items worked best, he did it once off vid about 6/7 times, i've yet to film it, but i keeping having ago with it.

I'm sure he also watches my line of eye, because i'll look at insects that aren't moving that he can't see, i spend many hours just sat next to cage!!

the work out vid tests Lenny's brain & physical development, if the trap door was smoother & built better he'd open it every time for food, once he'd worked it out, no good to me i want those claws & forelimbs to work!!

you built a box & ticked all the boxes, now think what you can do to enhance their life experiences!! :)

look forward to a video when you manage it!

I wonder if monitors can be click trained, i'm sure I read something about a similar technique somewhere with monitors

[Starbuck]

one of the methods they use to determine how intelligent a species is uses the recognition of self; they will paint a dot on an animals flank or forehead etc, and see if the animal sees the image in a mirror, recognizes that the image is 'self' and then investigates the dot.

While i personally think this test is selectively efficient for social animals, it may work for monitors. i think this would be really neat to see if monitors have this capacity; you could start by training them that if they touch a target (dot) they get food, then paint the target on the lizards side (or somewhere they could only see if the had a mirror, i.e. their chest?) and then see if the monitor makes an effort to touch the target on 'self' for the treat. The problem with monitors (and crows, and dolphins) is that they don't have hands or trunks (like chimps, people, and elephants) so it is more difficult to quantify an investigatory movement towards the dot vs. simple preening etc. i guess i'd have to do some more research, as I'm pretty sure dolphins and crows have 'passed' this test...

[formica]

one of the methods they use to determine how intelligent a species is uses the recognition of self; they will paint a dot on an animals flank or forehead etc, and see if the animal sees the image in a mirror, recognizes that the image is 'self' and then investigates the dot.

While i personally think this test is selectively efficient for social animals, it may work for monitors. i think this would be really neat to see if monitors have this capacity; you could start by training them that if they touch a target (dot) they get food, then paint the target on the lizards side (or somewhere they could only see if the had a mirror, i.e. their chest?) and then see if the monitor makes an effort to touch the target on 'self' for the treat. The problem with monitors (and crows, and dolphins) is that they don't have hands or trunks (like chimps, people, and elephants) so it is more difficult to quantify an investigatory movement towards the dot vs. simple preening etc. i guess i'd have to do some more research, as I'm pretty sure dolphins and crows have 'passed' this test...

interesting, any suggestions for a safe paint to use?

monitors use their tongues to investigate things, that could potentially be a way to do it, they dont preen, so it should be obvious...but how do you paint a dot onto a monitor, without it realizing? so that it only spots it in a mirror...maybe it could be done while being distracted with a treat

I think cats do badly with this test aswel dont they?

[SnakeyJay]

we all know how important it is, there is no need for every thread about monitors to go over the same thing over and over, at the expense of the topic at hand

Fair enough, but as an outsider to varanid keeping I was just clarifying thing for my own benefit...

[Starbuck]

interesting, any suggestions for a safe paint to use?

monitors use their tongues to investigate things, that could potentially be a way to do it, they dont preen, so it should be obvious...but how do you paint a dot onto a monitor, without it realizing? so that it only spots it in a mirror...maybe it could be done while being distracted with a treat

I think cats do badly with this test aswel dont they?


a lot of 'intelligent' animals cannot pass, i think less than 60% of elephants pass the test, as well as dogs. Im not sure of a safe paint, but i think a human fingerpaint would be ok? or just a colored sticker... i'd have to look up the papers again to follow through on the study, but the main idea is that it has to be somewhere on the body that the animal can ONLY see it on a mirror, not just by turning their head (so i don't think a flank would work on a monitor). You can always apply the paint mark and wait for it to dry before doing the test, so the monitor no longer feels the wetness of the paint.

[Rob_H]

Magpies and jackdaws have passed the mirror test, after extensive habituation a mirror before the spot was added. Some work on keas is being done on it as well. The usual way is to stick the white spot just below the throat, so the bird cannot see it without the aid of a mirror. The normal way to control for the effect being simply due to the paint/spot is to simply use a black/camouflaged spot (which the birds couldn't see against their plumage).

Here's the paper: PLOS Biology: Mirror-Induced Behavior in the Magpie (Pica pica): Evidence of Self-Recognition (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0060202)

It would be a huge discovery if lizards were found to be capable of this!

[mdfmonitor]

nice, although thats a monitor searching for food, which doesnt quite test its intelligence in the same way, i dont think its any more demanding that say digging around in the ground, following a scent trail and scratching around in leaves




monitor called munchkin, lol

I think it's more on the lines of something different, a different experience with different safe material!

[mdfmonitor]

look forward to a video when you manage it!

I wonder if monitors can be click trained, i'm sure I read something about a similar technique somewhere with monitors

Had a go tonight, you can clearly see him look for food with his tongue & head direction when i say forward, but he may look for food at the right time to any verbal noise i make.

First he looked forward then he looked behind him which was the command i gave & he got the reward, he clicked what was going on & followed the next behind command straight away so he was facing in the right direction, i then had to give a forward command when his head was facing the right direction, he respond straight to the reward item.

I then had a food item about (locust medium) 3/4 foot way, thrown in earlier & gave the forward command, he looked but gave up because he couldn't see the item or he realised the viv door was open & he'd find bigger prey items there!! & he did (chick)

i then finished feeding another day old chick or two & closed the door, he went straight to the locust from earlier that he couldn't see in a dark area ( head pinched so they don't jump all over).

So did his logic & repetitive feeding override my command to go forward??

Not enough vid evidence at that, but enough to prove it worth keepers trying it with their mons!

[mdfmonitor]

Magpies and jackdaws have passed the mirror test, after extensive habituation a mirror before the spot was added. Some work on keas is being done on it as well. The usual way is to stick the white spot just below the throat, so the bird cannot see it without the aid of a mirror. The normal way to control for the effect being simply due to the paint/spot is to simply use a black/camouflaged spot (which the birds couldn't see against their plumage).

Here's the paper: PLOS Biology: Mirror-Induced Behavior in the Magpie (Pica pica): Evidence of Self-Recognition (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0060202)

It would be a huge discovery if lizards were found to be capable of this!
Monitors as we know can live in social groups in the right setting, possibly the best monitor to try this on is one that hasn't been manhandled in it's life or one in a group that is the dominant animal, not sure how you'd put the dot on though lol!!

And you might still have to leave the room to film it, they usually behave different when your not eye balling them. :)

[mdfmonitor]

Bit crude on his foot work! but it was his 1st time, you could see him ripping rotten tree trucks apart to get bugs out. :)

Monitor Lizard Work out Part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM2EbZPzNTU)

[varanus_mad]

Bit crude on his foot work! but it was his 1st time, you could see him ripping rotten tree trucks apart to get bugs out. :)

Monitor Lizard Work out Part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM2EbZPzNTU)

To be fair to him His feet really weren't designed for that lol

[formica]

aww I feel a bit sorry for him actually lol did he get them in the end?

edit: ah yes just spotted that he did lol

[mdfmonitor]

I'm going to try a bigger hole & see what happens! one he can get that hand in. :) But that might fit his head in as well lol

but yes those feet are designed for digging, but i have seen him run one of his claws down a grove to get a food item out in the pass!! but they would tear open a rotten log for grubs.