Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[formica]

A note - this is experimental, and not recommended

my Sav has been in ''cool season'' since November, and I'm getting ready to run a ''dry season'' simulation, upto mid-march latest, at which point (s)he'll be going into a 10X6 enclosure

I was hesitant to post this up, i'd like to ask first that we leave aside the previous discussions on this topic, which got a little overheated, would be great if we could focus on finding the safest way to approach this based on your experience and understanding of Sav's, i've tried to integrate everything I have learnt so far to do this...your advice and suggestions are very welcome!

i built a nesting box a few months ago, basically a ~2.2ft cube, filled almost to the top with soil-sand mix, and heated to 86f, this was just incase the main enclosure substrate wasnt right, and it turned out to be a she needing to lay eggs

The nest box is connected to the main enclosure via a plastic tunnel, my Sav hasnt shown any interest in it at all so far, nosed around a few times, but still sleeping in the main enclosure, but I think it will become a retreat once I switch the temps and humidity over.

So the plan, is to use a nesting box as a cool and humid hide, and the main enclosure as a hot and dry area.

For ''dry season'' (now to march) i am going to reduce the heating temp of the nesting box to about 75-78f, and keep the humidity at 90%, and then bump the basking temps up to 160f in the main enclosure, aswell as increase ventilation so its a bit drier (~30%), i'm also switching the lamps to Halides for a higher UV boost during this stage

going to a Herp Vet on friday for a checkup, but he/she seems pretty healthy, a little overweight (no surprise after cooling for a while), given the expected change in apatite I think thats probably not a bad thing in the short term

getting blood tests for Liver and Kidney Function, White Cell counts, and fecal parasite checks, aswell as BMI, all for comparison mid-march at a 2nd check up.


I was thinking of modifying the diet aswell during the simulation, my logic being that insects populations crash during dry seasons, so feeding mainly carrion type foods, highly nutritious and low fat (livers/kidneys/hearts etc), and dubias & giant snails, maybe a few big scorpians too, all depending on apatite


thoughts, comments and suggestions very welcome :)


My expectations:


Appetite reduction or possibly total fast
Reduction in activity
Weight Loss
Increased immune response as a result of:


Increased UV
(Fasting)

Breeding Behaviour / Ovulation triggered late March when switching to optimal (rainy season) climate control


Long term? Who knows, it is difficult to measure genetic repair without lots of money, but studies have shown that fasting is an important trigger for genetic repair, so potentially, increased life span, but with just one Sav, in one setup with, one set of environmental conditions, designed by someone new to monitors, its impossible to measure this properly...for now

Then again, none of the above may happen

[pdomensis]

Sounds interesting. I don't know a thing about savs so I'm just looking at this from a scientific angle. Like you mentioned, it would be impossible to quantify any results and determine any significance unless you replicated the experiment many times, but anecdotal evidence is a good beginning point.

I haven't heard the term "genetic repair" before and was curious about what that meant. Good luck!

[formica]

Sounds interesting. I don't know a thing about savs so I'm just looking at this from a scientific angle. Like you mentioned, it would be impossible to quantify any results and determine any significance unless you replicated the experiment many times, but anecdotal evidence is a good beginning point.

I haven't heard the term "genetic repair" before and was curious about what that meant. Good luck!

In humans, it relates to a hormone called IGF-1.

Essentially, IGF-1 causes cells to divide and reproduce when the levels are high, this results in minor errors in DNA, which add to form all sorts of diseases, cancers and age related degenerative conditions

When the levels are low, cells switch ''modes'', rather than dividing and reproducing rapidly, they repair their DNA and reproduce more slowly, ageing essentially slows down, and the DNA is repaired more efficiently.

IGF-1 levels are directly related to food consumption, fasting for 72hrs reduces it to a level which switches the repair mode on, eating every day, keeps the levels high, so we age faster and have more age-related diseases as a result of damaged DNA not being repaired properly

Before modern farming and civilization, hunter gather lifestlyes, and our more primitive lifestyles (as seen in some of our Ape cousins lives), would involve several days of fasting or very low calorie intake, expending lots of energy in order to find a big meal - the theory is, that we have evolved to fast, in order to repair our DNA properly, and this is unlikley to be exclusive to Humans.

IGF-1 is found in many animals, including reptiles

There is not really enough data on what monitors do during dry season, although they are known to not be totally inactive, it is debatable how much they eat or what activities they continue doing - if they do fast, and have evolved to do so, I feel that it is probably an important part of their physiology


I'll post up some links tonight...off out now! but if you want to read more, search for IGF-1 and fasting :)

[B_Aller]

This is a bad idea all around. You really think messing with the parameters that much and forcing your animal into your seasons is beneficial? Then on top of that stressing the hell out of it to be poked and prodded by the vet?
I know you said you only want people who agree with you to post on your threads but this is the problem with the trade right here in a nut shell. You should raise up 4-6 of these guys first using the proven husbandry methods so you know what normal in captivity is before posting this type of stuff, very dangerous and potentially life threatening to those who read it and think this is where their effort should go. I don't care if you say this is not recommended, this is irresponsible.

[formica]

This is a bad idea all around. You really think messing with the parameters that much and forcing your animal into your seasons is beneficial? Then on top of that stressing the hell out of it to be poked and prodded by the vet?
I know you said you only want people who agree with you to post on your threads but this is the problem with the trade right here in a nut shell. You should raise up 4-6 of these guys first using the proven husbandry methods so you know what normal in captivity is before posting this type of stuff, very dangerous and potentially life threatening to those who read it and think this is where their effort should go. I don't care if you say this is not recommended, this is irresponsible.

Yes I do believe that potentially it could be very beneficial, the science suggests it could be so. I do not believe it is anywhere near is dangerous as you are suggesting, not for the short amount of time involved, Savs deal with 5-6 months dry season in the wild, mine is getting a climate controlled humid hide, and a dry enclosure for just 2.5months.

There are at least 3 things missing from ''proven husbandry'' for monitors, which have been shown not only to be beneficial, but infact vital for many animal's lives, there is no reason to suggest that the same is not true for monitors. At least one of those has been proven scientifically already in the last few weeks, as you know, but refuse to accept.

This is my responsibility, and I accept that, i'm not a child, and I am not asking your permission.

Hope we have cleared that up and can get on with an interesting discussion :) ...theres a whole area of a monitors life beyond rainy season

[pdomensis]

Husbandry, like evolution, requires trial and error. I'm not advocating the needless harming of animals, but new things have to be tried in order to make advances. However I would agree that increased stress would be one of the results and that might undo any benefits of occasional fasting.

[pdomensis]

I actually think this would be better done to a large number of lab sized animals (feeders) to get good data instead of a single monitor.

[Starbuck]

I'm concerned form a scientific standpoint because you are altering multiple variables (climate and diet). You have no way to know which is contributing to the success/failure of your 'experiment', or if one is beneficial while the other detrimental.

[formica]

Husbandry, like evolution, requires trial and error. I'm not advocating the needless harming of animals, but new things have to be tried in order to make advances. However I would agree that increased stress would be one of the results and that might undo any benefits of occasional fasting.

may well be right, do you think that this would cause more stress than 5-6 months of dry season in the wild? I'm not sure it will, most Savs do not survive their first dry season in the wild (from what DB told me), the environmental pressures far exceed what I am going to provide

My Sav isnt going to be forced to fast, in DB's book, his observations where that monitors automatically reduced their food intake as the seasons changed, regardless of the amount of food available, so i intend to make food available, and let my Sav choose for himself

I actually think this would be better done to a large number of lab sized animals (feeders) to get good data instead of a single monitor.

definitely needs a good data set, unfortunately I dont have the money for the scale required to do a proper scientific study....but I get the feeling that no one is prepared to do that kind of study, without first seeing it happen on a smaller scale without disastrous consequences.

My years raising ant colonies from around the world, have taught me the importance of natural cycles, you cannot keep temperate species for eg, at the same temps and humidity all year round, they become sick and die off within a few years if they are not allowed to hibernate, as opposed to a decade or more life span

[formica]

I'm concerned form a scientific standpoint because you are altering multiple variables (climate and diet). You have no way to know which is contributing to the success/failure of your 'experiment', or if one is beneficial while the other detrimental.

certainly, as this has never been done before, there is no way to know anything at this point in time.

diet will not really change that much, the difference will be reduced fat intake, and increased water content in invertebrate foods, thats all - my Sav already gets whole prey items and insects

If my Sav remains as active as (s)he currently is, and eats as much as he currently dose, the of course the whole thing will need to be reviewed

[pdomensis]

Agree with both above. You'll never be able to say definitively if you were successful or not, but I hope it goes well. Good luck to you (and your sav).

[Starbuck]

My years raising ant colonies from around the world, have taught me the importance of natural cycles, you cannot keep temperate species for eg, at the same temps and humidity all year round, they become sick and die off within a few years if they are not allowed to hibernate, as opposed to a decade or more life span

an ant is not a vertebrate. My (somewhat limited) understanding of many temperate ant colonies is that the cold/dry/harsh season often coincides with a large die off in colony members, which are then replenished with new offspring during favorable conditions, the point is to protect the reproducing stage... therefore without the cycling of climate, the old ants aren't dying off as they would in nature, resulting in a more dramatic colony die off after a certain number of years, as an ant isn't designed to live that long...? additionally, in many animals, cycling is required to induce the female to ovulate/prepare her for pregnancy, but since you are not planning to breed your sav, I'm failing to see the urgency? wouldn't inducing her to cycle actually shorten her lifespan?

While i have no doubt that you have done lots of reading on the subject, i don't think it is appropriate to draw parallels and conclusions based on invertebrate, colony biology to a single vertebrate organism.

[formica]

an ant is not a vertebrate. My (somewhat limited) understanding of many temperate ant colonies is that the cold/dry/harsh season often coincides with a large die off in colony members, which are then replenished with new offspring during favorable conditions, the point is to protect the reproducing stage... therefore without the cycling of climate, the old ants aren't dying off as they would in nature, resulting in a more dramatic colony die off after a certain number of years, as an ant isn't designed to live that long...? additionally, in many animals, cycling is required to induce the female to ovulate/prepare her for pregnancy, but since you are not planning to breed your sav, I'm failing to see the urgency? wouldn't inducing her to cycle actually shorten her lifespan?

While i have no doubt that you have done lots of reading on the subject, i don't think it is appropriate to draw parallels and conclusions based on invertebrate, colony biology to a single vertebrate organism.

Some older/weaker worker ants die off during hibernation, but not in any great numbers, the biggest die off is eggs and very young larvae, older larvae and pupae all survive and continue to slowly develop if its not too cold, most of the workers survive, its the older works who are out first in spring, some workers live weeks, some a few years, depends on the species.

Sav females can become sexual mature anywhere from 6 to 18 months from what I have read, I wont be speeding it up, as the end of march is the normal time for them to become sexually active, and (s)he will be ~1 year old at that point

I'm not just basing my ideas on Ants, as I posted earlier, there are parallels in mammals aswell, and there are plenty of known examples of reptiles which require brumation or hibernation - not saying that Monitors Brumate or Hibernate, only that there is a drastic change in the environment they have adapted to over millions of years, and I think its worth finding out if it is important to their physiology...I bring up ants as one extreme example of how animals have adapted to natural cycles in ways which can mean the difference between life and death, even tho it does not at first seem logical that ants may require hibernating to survive

Daniel Bennet has also observed monitors in captivity, seemingly attempting to brumate for weeks at a time, when presented with the right set of environmental conditions to do so (mampam website)

[murrindindi]

Hi, to base this "game" on some ants you've kept shows a complete lack of care and consideration for the animal in question in my opinion.
With virtually no knowledge of the subject (the captive care of Varanids) you want to "experiment"?
There`s absolutely no need to replicate the harsher conditions they endure in the wild here in captivity (the whole idea is to reduce/eliminate those, not increase them as you`re doing)!?
If temps, humidity and food were available year round they`d remain active as many other species do. THAT is what you should be "experimenting" on (fully supporting them 24/7). Then maybe, just maybe, this animal will live a long, healthy and perhaps productive life, which is basically what we should all practically guarantee them!
Edit: The only species I`ve heard of that might require brumation in captivity to remain in good health is V. griseus (Desert monitor).

[formica]

Got that out of your system now? if you want to discuss the topic, then please do, your input would be valuable, your attacks are not useful to anyone.

as I have said numerous times, no one has shown that the natural cycles a Sav goes thru in the wild, and have adapted to thru millinos of years of evolution, are not important.

[murrindindi]

"Attack"???
This is NOT ABOUT THE WILD, it`s about CAPTIVITY, and how we can all best support them HERE. That means passing on info that has been shown to work as opposed to the mountain of info that doesn`t, that we all have to sift through constantly!
The best way for you to learn is to keep it as simple as possible, not complicate it with unnecessary risks.....
I guess you`ve got what you wanted so far; some attention..... :)

[formica]

"Attack"???
This is NOT ABOUT THE WILD, it`s about CAPTIVITY, and how we can all best support them HERE. That means passing on info that has been shown to work as opposed to the mountain of info that doesn`t, that we all have to sift through constantly!
The best way for you to learn is to keep it as simple as possible, not complicate it with unnecessary risks.....
I guess you`ve got what you wanted so far; some attention..... :)

Its a genuine shame you cannot get over your ego and join in the discussion. please leave the thread alone if all you want to do is attack me. thanks.

[B_Aller]

Formica, Why call this an experiment? It's clearly not. You have already drawn your conclusions. You have no control group, no baseline to work with and you don't know what normal is, bloodwork or otherwise.
It's hilarious to me that you think this has never been done and that you are the first, this is what ALL newbies who think their serious do, trust me I know 'cause I did it too.
Problem is experience kinda throws a wrench in all the nonsense you propose.
This is the vicious cycle that results in the captive death of monitors. Before any of the useful techniques can be established, newbs such as yourself decide it's up to them to reinvent the wheel. Now I'm the first to point out the difference between the wheels on an ancient chariot and the tires on a formula one race car....problem is you still have to learn to drive. You don't even have your learners permit Formica, yet you want to speed...I'll watch from the sidelines as the wheels fall off!
Good luck.

[Mikoh4792]

very poetic

[formica]

Formica, Why call this an experiment? It's clearly not. You have already drawn your conclusions. You have no control group, no baseline to work with and you don't know what normal is, bloodwork or otherwise.
It's hilarious to me that you think this has never been done and that you are the first, this is what ALL newbies who think their serious do, trust me I know 'cause I did it too.
Problem is experience kinda throws a wrench in all the nonsense you propose.
This is the vicious cycle that results in the captive death of monitors. Before any of the useful techniques can be established, newbs such as yourself decide it's up to them to reinvent the wheel. Now I'm the first to point out the difference between the wheels on an ancient chariot and the tires on a formula one race car....problem is you still have to learn to drive. You don't even have your learners permit Formica, yet you want to speed...I'll watch from the sidelines as the wheels fall off!
Good luck.

I have not drawn conclusions, I have hypothesized about what may or may not happen, and outlined my plan to test it, and described the limitations of what I am trying to do and the limitations of any possible analysis or conclusions.

If you have done this, I would be interested to hear about it. It would be very useful not just to myself, but also the myriad of other people who have asked the same questions - the reason I am posting this on this website, is because I want input from experienced people, I am not doing this and ignoring what people say - the only thing I am questioning, is the belief that a major part of a Savs life cycle is not important, because no scientific evidence has been presented to say it is so, and there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest that it probably is important, but overlooked. I am not attacking anyones practices, I am asking valid questions, for which no one is willing to provide any answer other than ''your a newbie you dont have any right to question it''.

I do not need to know what baseline blood test results should be, I am not trained in blood analysis, thats what I am paying the specialist for, he will tell me what they should be, what they are, and how/if they have changed.

I would like to hear what you did when you tried this, you are the first person to say that you have tried it, i'd like to know what you did and how, and what the outcomes where, and how you measured them. I'm sure I am not the only person who would find that interesting and valuable information.

[infernalis]

My only opinion, is that 99.999% of the keepers out there are housing their animals in a nearly perpetual dry season.

Getting real, unless you have an aquifer under your substrate, drain fields and overhead sprinklers that you can sometimes cycle for 10+ hours at a time, you will never truly create a wet season, so I can't see any point in attempting to recreate the drought conditions other people are already doing?

[formica]

My only opinion, is that 99.999% of the keepers out there are housing their animals in a nearly perpetual dry season.

Getting real, unless you have an aquifer under your substrate, drain fields and overhead sprinklers that you can sometimes cycle for 10+ hours at a time, you will never truly create a wet season, so I can't see any point in attempting to recreate the drought conditions other people are already doing?

funny you should mention an aquifer...my full size build is being designed with that in mind, aerated concrete blocks will form the base, 3ft high, with a foot of drainage at the bottom, substrate separated by a steel mesh, fine gravel and more areated concrete, a big pump system with sprinklers, possibly filtered thru an Aquaponics system (for crayfish and other foods) - the idea is to create a ''water table'', at the base of the enclosure

However, I've not yet found a way of moving enough water thru the system, without eroding significant amounts of substrate (been playing with ideas on a small scale)...but I will find a way to do it, have a few more design ideas to play with

[pdomensis]

However, I've not yet found a way of moving enough water thru the system, without eroding significant amounts of substrate (been playing with ideas on a small scale)...but I will find a way to do it, have a few more design ideas to play with

That's what plants and roots are for. The microbiotic fauna that lives around the roots produces a substance called glomalin which acts as a glue holding soil together. Above ground biomass from the plants also intercepts the water and reduces impact damage on the soil.

[formica]

That's what plants and roots are for. The microbiotic fauna that lives around the roots produces a substance called glomalin which acts as a glue holding soil together. Above ground biomass from the plants also intercepts the water and reduces impact damage on the soil.


yeah I had some success with grasses in a previous setup, Monitors make fast work of plants tho, i'd need to let the enclosure grow for quite some time to get a good root system, the enclosure will be well planted up with fast growing grasses, but I need a fail safe way of keeping the soil out of the water table - aerated concrete is good for that, but its slow to drain, so its a matter of balancing the water flow and drainage

interesting re glomalin, is that something which can be bought synthetically, or any specific plants which produce it particularly quickly?

[pdomensis]

Might look into some kind of geotextile fabric as a soil/water barrier, but it won't stop the disintigration of the soil peds. An extruded geogrid (Geo-Grids.com - Grass Grids, Geo Grid, Plastic Pavers (http://www.geo-grids.com/)) might also prevent digging in certain areas.

As for glomalin, no it's not synthetically or commercially available. Agronomists are just starting to realize how important it is. The closest thing I can think of would be polyacrylamide (PAM) which is used to line canals to prevent water loss. There's a lot of work going into developing multi-species mixtures to use in crop rotations to build soil health. The basic rule is, more diverse plant communities support more diverse soil fauna which translates to better soil and less erosion.

[smy_749]

Won't get into the argument here, but I think steel mesh is a bad idea with a species that will probably burrow down till he reaches it. Can imagine he will shred through it, or get caught in it and lose some nails or something.

[formica]

Won't get into the argument here, but I think steel mesh is a bad idea with a species that will probably burrow down till he reaches it. Can imagine he will shred through it, or get caught in it and lose some nails or something.

I dont mean mesh like chicken wire, but 2mm thick perforated sheet, then 1.5inch aerated concrete slabs on top, then various grades of gravel, then the substrate. I dont imagine even a monitor could get thru aerated concrete?

Might look into some kind of geotextile fabric as a soil/water barrier, but it won't stop the disintigration of the soil peds. An extruded geogrid (Geo-Grids.com - Grass Grids, Geo Grid, Plastic Pavers (http://www.geo-grids.com/)) might also prevent digging in certain areas.

As for glomalin, no it's not synthetically or commercially available. Agronomists are just starting to realize how important it is. The closest thing I can think of would be polyacrylamide (PAM) which is used to line canals to prevent water loss. There's a lot of work going into developing multi-species mixtures to use in crop rotations to build soil health. The basic rule is, more diverse plant communities support more diverse soil fauna which translates to better soil and less erosion.

interesting thanks, yeah did a bit of reading about it, seems that time is the only real way to get it built up. although i've found the topic of ''soil glue'' now, so more research to do, thanks!

[Pirarucu]

I believe that this is an extremely unnecessary and potentially risky undertaking, mainly because it accomplishes nothing. They whether the dry season because they have to, not because it is good for them. Case in point, Ghana's dry season is far shorter than countries such as senegal, and the Savs are much more common in Ghana, as they are not restricted to areas around water like the ones in Senegal. Moreover, changing the environment serves no purpose, even assuming withholding food has the benefits you suggested. The reason is that they whether the dry season by staying where it is still humid as much as possible, using their burrows. It does not change the environment they will keep themselves in, it just limits their use of the cage.
If you are going with the assumption that withholding food helps them repair their DNA (and I still don't see the links you said you would be posting) why not stop feeding while leaving their environment the same? Why unnecessarily subject them to harsh conditions that they try their utmost to avoid?

I'll be interested to see your results, but I'm not sure how you intend to determine whether you have been "successful" or not, without having a larger test group, the DNA testing, or having owned savs using conventional methods already to have a base line.

[formica]

I believe that this is an extremely unnecessary and potentially risky undertaking, mainly because it accomplishes nothing. They whether the dry season because they have to, not because it is good for them. Case in point, Ghana's dry season is far shorter than countries such as senegal, and the Savs are much more common in Ghana, as they are not restricted to areas around water like the ones in Senegal. Moreover, changing the environment serves no purpose, even assuming withholding food has the benefits you suggested. The reason is that they whether the dry season by staying where it is still humid as much as possible, using their burrows. It does not change the environment they will keep themselves in, it just limits their use of the cage.
If you are going with the assumption that withholding food helps them repair their DNA (and I still don't see the links you said you would be posting) why not stop feeding while leaving their environment the same? Why unnecessarily subject them to harsh conditions that they try their utmost to avoid?

I'll be interested to see your results, but I'm not sure how you intend to determine whether you have been "successful" or not, without having a larger test group, the DNA testing, or having owned savs using conventional methods already to have a base line.

When an animals metabolism changes, all sorts of things change in its physiology, and for many animals, the changes can be very important and beneficial.

When a monitor is forced to escape the harsh above ground conditions, to the cool humid conditions of a burrow, its metabolism slows, simply because it is cooled down, this might be important, after all, they do it for months at a time, and nature does not do things simply for the sake of it, it takes advantage of everything in its environment and adapts to those conditions in ways which often are not apparently logically, at first - we dont know, it hasnt been studied in monitors, or if it has, I havent found it published anywhere, nor has anyone that I have asked about it - but it has been studied in many other , reptiles, mammals and invertebrates, and in some cases been found to not only be beneficial, but in some cases, essential

If food is withheld, but the same temperature and humidity is provided, it will not force the monitor to retreat to a cool and humid area, because it will remain active and searching for food, therefore its metabolism will not change, and so the physiological changes associated with a lowered metabolism, which it has evolved to deal with and which may have a beneficial affect (as it does in many other animals), do not occur.

I have been asking for months, for people to give me tempreture readings from inside burrows, and have gathered as many as I could from peoples wild observations, and used them to come up with the model for the cool and humid burrowing area to which my Sav can escape too from the dry and hot area

Testing DNA repair is not practical or within my budget, although testing for the hormones involved might be, i plan on discussing that with the vet tomorrow


How will i know if its successful? Well you are right, it is very difficult to give a firm answer to that, there could be obvious positives or obvious negatives, or there may be no discernible differences. time will tell

[Pirarucu]

When an animals metabolism changes, all sorts of things change in its physiology, and for many animals, the changes can be very important and beneficial.

When a monitor is forced to escape the harsh above ground conditions, to the cool humid conditions of a burrow, its metabolism slows, simply because it is cooled down, this might be important, after all, they do it for months at a time, and nature does not do things simply for the sake of it, it takes advantage of everything in its environment and adapts to those conditions in ways which often are not apparently logically, at first - we dont know, it hasnt been studied in monitors, or if it has, I havent found it published anywhere, nor has anyone that I have asked about it - but it has been studied in many other , reptiles, mammals and invertebrates, and in some cases been found to not only be beneficial, but in some cases, essential

If food is withheld, but the same temperature and humidity is provided, it will not force the monitor to retreat to a cool and humid area, because it will remain active and searching for food, therefore its metabolism will not change, and so the physiological changes associated with a lowered metabolism, which it has evolved to deal with and which may have a beneficial affect (as it does in many other animals), do not occur.

I have been asking for months, for people to give me tempreture readings from inside burrows, and have gathered as many as I could from peoples wild observations, and used them to come up with the model for the cool and humid burrowing area to which my Sav can escape too from the dry and hot area

Testing DNA repair is not practical or within my budget, although testing for the hormones involved might be, i plan on discussing that with the vet tomorrow


How will i know if its successful? Well you are right, it is very difficult to give a firm answer to that, there could be obvious positives or obvious negatives, or there may be no discernible differences. time will tellHere's my problem with what you are saying. Your decision is based entirely on your presumption that you need to force them to go and cool down. Why not simply provide an opportunity to cool down (burrows) and not mess with above ground conditions? While your response will, I'm sure, be about the need to trigger the behavior with an environmental change, I'd like to bring up a point you mentioned in the last thread this idea was discussed in.
DB has noted on his website (mampam i think?), that some monitors have been known to spend weeks on end in cool areas of a house, when given the run of the house, not moving, not eating, just chilling, literally, in the cool spot, even when hotter is available, and then after a while going back to the warm area to resume normal life, DB noted that this may well have been an intentional 'brumnation'/'aestivatin' by the monitorIf they will go and stay in the cool spot intentionally and voluntarily, even when conditions are not changed, why would one attempt to force the behavior?

[KORBIN5895]

If they will go and stay in the cool spot intentionally and voluntarily, even when conditions are not changed, why would one attempt to force the behavior?

Because some have a deep and well seated notion of how right their own intellect is. Besides as soon as he provides the link on how humans repair their DNA while fasting you will clearly see why it is so important to savs

[formica]

Here's my problem with what you are saying. Your decision is based entirely on your presumption that you need to force them to go and cool down. Why not simply provide an opportunity to cool down (burrows) and not mess with above ground conditions? While your response will, I'm sure, be about the need to trigger the behavior with an environmental change, I'd like to bring up a point you mentioned in the last thread this idea was discussed in.

Yes, I am assuming that it needs to be forced, you are absolutely right about that, that's the whole point - dont you think that maintaining a rainy season climate, 365 days a year, for the whole of life, is forcing a Sav to deal with an unusual climate? They have not evolved to be at full metabolic rate day in day out - metabolism itself is a factor in longevity, fast metabolism = short life, thats basic biology, for all animals...and Monitors have some of the fastest metabolisms of all reptiles, I believe that forcing them to be at peak metabolism 365 days a year, may not be as healthy as it seems.

For sure I could wait until I have kept a few monitors before trying this, but I do believe that there may be some detrimental effects in forcing their metabolism to be at full whack for their whole lives, so why would I put even one monitor thru that? There is no data on the subject, and the one person on this thread who says they have done it, is not willing to share the information about it - I find it strange that, that same person who clearly had the same questions in mind, as I have now, is so willing to simply turn it into a personal little war.

If they will go and stay in the cool spot intentionally and voluntarily, even when conditions are not changed, why would one attempt to force the behavior?

Not quite what I said, DB's observations where, at the end of rainy season, they reducing their food and activity, as it cools down, i've already done a ''cool season''


Last minute work has delayed my plans now, hopefully off to see the herp vet next week

[murrindindi]

Yes, I am assuming that it needs to be forced, you are absolutely right about that, that's the whole point - dont you think that maintaining a rainy season climate, 365 days a year, for the whole of life, is forcing a Sav to deal with an unusual climate? They have not evolved to be at full metabolic rate day in day out, I believe that forcing them to be at peak metabolism 365 days a year, may not be as healthy as it seems.

I find it strange that, that same person who clearly had the same questions in mind, as I have now, is so willing to simply turn it into a personal little war.



Where have you got the notion that providing "wet season" conditions 365 days a year forces the animal to operate at "peak metabolism" for the entire time (24 hours per day)??
Does you monitor not have rest periods each and every day where it`s metabolism slows? In fact in a period of 24 hours they are resting more than they are active (metabolism is lowered).
These "ideas" have been doing the rounds for years; "it`s unhealthy, they'll wear themselves out" (not achieve their potential life spans)?
Can you show some evidence (please)!

[formica]

Where have you got the notion that providing "wet season" conditions 365 days a year forces the animal to operate at "peak metabolism" for the entire time (24 hours per day)??
Does you monitor not have rest periods each and every day where it`s metabolism slows? In fact in a period of 24 hours they are resting more than they are active (metabolism is lowered).
These "ideas" have been doing the rounds for years; "it`s unhealthy, they'll wear themselves out" (not achieve their potential life spans)?
Can you show some evidence (please)!

I would not insult your intelligence by explaining how temperature effects metabolism.

If you want to present evidence to show that I am wrong, then go for it - I have already presented my evidence, and am not going to indulge you any more with this circular arguing, its pretty tedious.

[murrindindi]

I would not insult your intelligence by explaining how temperature effects metabolism.

If you want to present evidence to show that I am wrong, then go for it - I have already presented my evidence, and am not going to indulge you any more with this circular arguing, its pretty tedious.

Evidence of what concerning captive Varanids???

[formica]

Evidence of what concerning captive Varanids???

that the cool and dry seasons are not physiologically important, and do not in any way play an important role in their natural life cycle, quality of life and over all health - in those Varanids which have evolved to live with such cycles.

[mdfmonitor]

I've not cooled mine yet because it's too warm at the mo, i shall be when the bad weather hits.

The reason you cool them is when they've been growing at full pelt all summer it's a good idea to slow them down for a month or two, but you don't have to!

In my books 30" of growth over the last 8 months i think he's due for a slow down, but you still leave the basking lights on & they still require areas of different levels of humility, we don't have cages big enough to give a dry season effectively.

You should have different levels of heat / humidity with-in your cage, the idea is to let them choose where they want to be.

So dry season should be left for the one's in the wild, maybe a cooling off season yes! :)

[Terranaut]

I do not have a monitor and never have so I will not comment on this husbandry debate but I will say this.....
We have captive animals living in small environments. How closely should we mimick nature? Do we go so far as to introduce them to environmental pitfalls as well? Do we give them diseases known to affect their wild counterparts? Should we infect them with ticks or starve them a while to simulate real world environments? Perhaps we should have natural predators chase them around in their enclosures?
This all sounds ludicrous for a reason. We may think we can recreate their natural environment but unless we add all the bad crap too we are really just providing our interpretation of nature. How far we take it is up to the individual. I do have a question....who owns the oldest captive monitor and how do they keep it? Personally when and if I do get a monitor this would be my guide and not nature.

[formica]

I do not have a monitor and never have so I will not comment on this husbandry debate but I will say this.....
We have captive animals living in small environments. How closely should we mimick nature? Do we go so far as to introduce them to environmental pitfalls as well? Do we give them diseases known to affect their wild counterparts? Should we infect them with ticks or starve them a while to simulate real world environments? Perhaps we should have natural predators chase them around in their enclosures?
This all sounds ludicrous for a reason. We may think we can recreate their natural environment but unless we add all the bad crap too we are really just providing our interpretation of nature. How far we take it is up to the individual. I do have a question....who owns the oldest captive monitor and how do they keep it? Personally when and if I do get a monitor this would be my guide and not nature.

valid questions

most of which I would say, no, those things should not be introduced

that said, one of them, your last question regarding natural predators, is actually part of a few different studies regarding enrichment of monitor enclosures, not using actual predators, but using rival monitors/other predators scents, pieces of fur, faeces, etc, to encourage different behaviors - not simply to study the behavior, but as part of enrichment of its environment

i'll try find the study link if you are interested in reading it, was quite interesting. I really should save these bookmarks for easy access

[infernalis]

I wish I could find an Eagle or a baboon to put in my enclosure. :D

[KORBIN5895]

Am I the only one noticing the lack of actual proof...... Again.

[formica]

I wish I could find an Eagle or a baboon to put in my enclosure. :D

loooking to build some kind of Tardis enclosure? :D

Am I the only one noticing the lack of actual proof...... Again.

you are aware that proof occurs after testing, yes? Not before.

the only person who claims to have tested this already, is not willing to provide their results, which indicates to me that their test was either significantly different to what I am doing, or that the cause and effect where not easily correlated after it was carried out.

hopefully they will post their results tho, i'm sure I am not the only person interested in reading about it.

I would also suggest that if someone who is label an expert by their peers, would carry this kind of test out, perhaps I am not talking as much nonsense as is being claimed ;)

[Terranaut]

I wish I could find an Eagle or a baboon to put in my enclosure. :D

Don't worry Wayne. ....I have spares ;)



Seriously though...who has the oldest captive Sav right now?

[formica]

Seriously though...who has the oldest captive Sav right now?


and how old is it?

[infernalis]

Seriously though...who has the oldest captive Sav right now?

I know of one that is seven years old, and still walks tall with a proud strut like my animals. The coolest part, the owner does not even think he's done anything special.... just take care of his lizard.

I hear some claims of 10 year old animals, but no proof.

[formica]

I know of one that is seven years old, and still walks tall with a proud strut like my animals. The coolest part, the owner does not even think he's done anything special.... just take care of his lizard.

I hear some claims of 10 year old animals, but no proof.

I've seen claims of an 11 year old being the oldest ever in captivity, and a 17 year old, no mention of whether that was CB/WF/WC however, and no links or references to said animals or their carers

the average lifespans offered by most sources is 10-15 years, but again, without any actual references

I have also seen claims of upto 25 years and above, still no refrences

none of this, combined with the 7 year olds you know, or the 10 years that are claimed, adds up to a good lifespan when comparing wild and captive animals, my very limited knowledge is telling me that actually their lifespans in the wild and captivity are pretty similar, which is a concern given the variation in husbundary

I think a survey is order, to find out for sure - if I draw one up, infernalis (and everyone else) would you be willing to pass it around to those you know? I'll keep it simple and under 60 seconds completion time...

[KORBIN5895]

loooking to build some kind of Tardis enclosure? :D



you are aware that proof occurs after testing, yes? Not before.

;)

The links you keep talking about..

[formica]

The links you keep talking about..#

i've referred to several studies, which in particular? i've posted them all up previously on other threads around this topic, here are the IGF1 & DNA repair links:

You can probably find the science program "Horizon: Eat, Fast and Live Longer" to watch somewhere online if you are interested, it goes into much more depth, very interesting stuff.

an outline can be read here, but the program is much more indepth and very interesting: BBC News - The power of intermittent fasting (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19112549) (IGF1, fasting and aging)

one of the scientific studies used for the program:

Intermittent fasting dissociates beneficial effects of dietary restriction on glucose metabolism and neuronal resistance to injury from calorie intake (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC156352/) (IGF1, fasting and aging)

[red ink]

Do ectothermic animals posses IGF1 like endothermic animals?

[formica]

Do ectothermic animals posses IGF1 like endothermic animals?

yes it is found in many snakes and lizards (i do not know if it is found in all of them, or if that has been looked into), and is known to play some of the same roles, but it hasn't been studied completely, and not specifically in varanids that I am aware of

[red ink]

yes it is found in many snakes and lizards (i do not know if it is found in all of them, or if that has been looked into), and is known to play some of the same roles, but it hasn't been studied completely, and not specifically in varanids that I am aware of

So if you're not sure if it is found in all ectothermic animals, and is only known to play some of the same roles as well as it not being known in varanids specifically... let alone in Varanus exanthematicus


The point of the experiment is what again?

[formica]

So if you're not sure if it is found in all ectothermic animals, and is only known to play some of the same roles as well as it not being known in varanids specifically... let alone in Varanus exanthematicus


The point of the experiment is what again?

it is only known to play some of the same roles, because not all of the roles have been studied, that is not the same thing as knowing that it does not play all the same roles.

IGF1 is only one small part of the picture. and no, I am not going to explain it again...its all there in the thread prior to this post.

[red ink]

it is only known to play some of the same roles, because not all of the roles have been studied, that is not the same thing as knowing that it does not play all the same roles.

IGF1 is only one small part of the picture. and no, I am not going to explain it again...its all there in the thread prior to this post.

The explanations is in this thread or another thread? Can you link the other thread is theres another one?

If IGF1 is only a small part of the picture what's the rest of the picture look like?

Why specifically mention genetic repair and go into IGF1... citing endothermic experiments?

[lady_bug87]

So if you're not sure if it is found in all ectothermic animals, and is only known to play some of the same roles as well as it not being known in varanids specifically... let alone in Varanus exanthematicus


The point of the experiment is what again?

To wad everyone's panties into a tight little bunch.

That's my guess anyways

[formica]

The explanations is in this thread or another thread? Can you link the other thread is theres another one?

If IGF1 is only a small part of the picture what's the rest of the picture look like?

Why specifically mention genetic repair and go into IGF1... citing endothermic experiments?

It is all in this thread, and there are I think 2 other threads on the topic somewhere in this part of the forum which cite various sources. not going to go over this any more, its all on previous pages if you want to read it.

[red ink]

It is all in this thread, and there are I think 2 other threads on the topic somewhere in this part of the forum which cite various sources. not going to go over this any more, its all on previous pages if you want to read it.

Yeah I read this thread several times now trying to find what I may have missed...

You have no hypothesis in your so called "experiment" in the first post.

You conclude by saying....

Long term? Who knows, it is difficult to measure genetic repair without lots of money, but studies have shown that fasting is an important trigger for genetic repair, so potentially, increased life span, but with just one Sav, in one setup with, one set of environmental conditions, designed by someone new to monitors, its impossible to measure this properly...for now


You have also said twice now that it's all in here... what's in here mate?
The only real thing you cited is IGF1... I asked you about it and you said it only a small part...

There is not really enough data on what monitors do during dry season, although they are known to not be totally inactive, it is debatable how much they eat or what activities they continue doing - if they do fast, and have evolved to do so, I feel that it is probably an important part of their physiology


So your basing the premise of your "experiment" on what exactly?

What is the purpose of this experiment?

[formica]

Yeah I read this thread several times now

again, its all there...


When an animals metabolism changes, all sorts of things change in its physiology, and for many animals, the changes can be very important and beneficial.

When a monitor is forced to escape the harsh above ground conditions, to the cool humid conditions of a burrow, its metabolism slows, simply because it is cooled down, this might be important, after all, they do it for months at a time, and nature does not do things simply for the sake of it, it takes advantage of everything in its environment and adapts to those conditions in ways which often are not apparently logically, at first - we dont know, it hasnt been studied in monitors, or if it has, I havent found it published anywhere, nor has anyone that I have asked about it - but it has been studied in many other , reptiles, mammals and invertebrates, and in some cases been found to not only be beneficial, but in some cases, essential

If food is withheld, but the same temperature and humidity is provided, it will not force the monitor to retreat to a cool and humid area, because it will remain active and searching for food, therefore its metabolism will not change, and so the physiological changes associated with a lowered metabolism, which it has evolved to deal with and which may have a beneficial affect (as it does in many other animals), do not occur.

I have been asking for months, for people to give me tempreture readings from inside burrows, and have gathered as many as I could from peoples wild observations, and used them to come up with the model for the cool and humid burrowing area to which my Sav can escape too from the dry and hot area

Testing DNA repair is not practical or within my budget, although testing for the hormones involved might be, i plan on discussing that with the vet tomorrow


How will i know if its successful? Well you are right, it is very difficult to give a firm answer to that, there could be obvious positives or obvious negatives, or there may be no discernible differences. time will tell

[red ink]

again, its all there...

Ok cool now I get you...

see... I was stuck on this though point...


There is not really enough data on what monitors do during dry season, although they are known to not be totally inactive, it is debatable how much they eat or what activities they continue doing - if they do fast, and have evolved to do so, I feel that it is probably an important part of their physiology

Your point in red... from a scientific methodology factor since your basing your experiment on dry season behaviours and their proposed benefits kinda voids the whole thing and that's on page 1 of this thread.


When a monitor is forced to escape the harsh above ground conditions, to the cool humid conditions of a burrow, its metabolism slows, simply because it is cooled down, this might be important, after all, they do it for months at a time, and nature does not do things simply for the sake of it, it takes advantage of everything in its environment and adapts to those conditions in ways which often are not apparently logically, at first - we dont know, it hasnt been studied in monitors, or if it has, I havent found it published anywhere, nor has anyone that I have asked about it - but it has been studied in many other , reptiles, mammals and invertebrates, and in some cases been found to not only be beneficial, but in some cases, essential

If food is withheld, but the same temperature and humidity is provided, it will not force the monitor to retreat to a cool and humid area, because it will remain active and searching for food, therefore its metabolism will not change, and so the physiological changes associated with a lowered metabolism, which it has evolved to deal with and which may have a beneficial affect (as it does in many other animals), do not occur.

I have been asking for months, for people to give me tempreture readings from inside burrows, and have gathered as many as I could from peoples wild observations, and used them to come up with the model for the cool and humid burrowing area to which my Sav can escape too from the dry and hot area


Seeing as you have no data to support varanids even do this.... yet your going to base an experiment on the assumption that they do and its "benefits"

good luck with that bud.

P.S. I like the fact that you've based genetic repair and linking it to IGF1 on speculation that varanids have it or that it even plays that same role if present.... knowing you have no means of testing it!

In the immortal words of Jesse Pinkman

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn214/Red-Ink-Buldogs/images_zps397864f2.jpg (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/Red-Ink-Buldogs/media/images_zps397864f2.jpg.html)

[formica]

see... I was stuck on tho point...


maybe some confusion here, the data regarding the way the environment/climate changes during diffrent seasons, is easy to find, we know how the temps and humidity changes both above and below ground.

observations are fairly clear that Sav's activities are reduced during dry season aswell, they are much harder to find during dry season, unless you go around digging up burrows, there are indications of some activity, and the occasional one can be spotted up a tree, but on the whole, they need to be dug up.

Their seasonal behavioral patterns are well understood by locals, as Savs are an important source of protein - they do not migrate to find food or ''optimal conditions'', they goto ground and wait for the rains...why? many animals which hibernate have some physiological benefit from doing so, because evolution does not waste energy or doing things for the sake of it

what I ment by data not being available, is that the physiological changes which occur as a result of the climate changes, have not been well studied and are not well understood

RE IGF1, you cant expect me to cover everything, i dont have that kind of budget, but IGF1 is important, and until people ask the question, no one is ever going to come up with an answer, are they. first questions....then answers, that, is science.

[red ink]

RE IGF1, you cant expect me to cover everything, i dont have that kind of budget, but IGF1 is important, and until people ask the question, no one is ever going to come up with an answer, are they. first questions....then answers, that, is science.

Actually...
If you can't answer it in your experiment or test for it then don't make a point of it. If you factor it in as a basis knowing you can't test it or prove it... it ain't science, it's speculations. By all means ask away just don't call it science... it's just a question.

[formica]

Actually...
If you can't answer it in your experiment or test for it then don't make a point of it. If you factor it in as a basis knowing you can't test it or prove it... it ain't science, it's speculations. By all means ask away just don't call it science... it's just a question.

It is not 'factored in', it is part of a range of reasons why this whole topic is worth investigating. The only science in this, are the reasons behind it and the information used to model the environment. as I said clearly at the start, the limitations of this mean that it will not provide any conclusive scientific proof, thats not upto me to do.

[mdfmonitor]

Monitors continue to look for food if kept at optimum conditions, but they soon decide there's no food in the enclosure & they reduce activity till food comes along, seen it many times.

If you fed mice all the time why look for insects in the cage! no point, if you don't leave food around in the viv hid before they rise why look for it!! no point.

they are not daft, when it comes to food. :)

[formica]

Happy to report that after a short dry season simulation, my Sav is in perfect health, some weight loss, as to be expected, (1.02kg before, 1.012kg after)

now that the humidity has been increased outside of his high-humidity box, activity and apatite has increased significantly over the last week.

I have added lots of seeds (bird seed and grass seed), and enclosure is gettng ''rain'' every day in the afternoon, I havent increased feeding yet, I will do that once the seeds start to sprout, although there are a fair few crickets in the enclosure anyway that have been happily breeding away


I do have a question....who owns the oldest captive monitor and how do they keep it? Personally when and if I do get a monitor this would be my guide and not nature.

15 this year - according to the results so far on the Savannah Monitor Longevity Survey, it has been kept with access to Sunlight for UV, a 120f basking spot, and, both cooler and drier seasonal variations.

[Rudiman]

I will go on record and say I don't care for this at all.

Scott

[formica]

I will go on record and say I don't care for this at all.

Scott

dont care for what? that he survived in good health?

or that the oldest recorded captive Sav in the survey so far, also goes thru dry and cool seasons, and has somehow made it to 15 years old? ...while many that are kept at ''optimum'' conditions are lucky to live to 10

well I can see why that wouldn't sit well with many people

[MDT]

So...your study group has an "N" of 1?

[formica]

So...your study group has an "N" of 1?

what study group?

[Rudiman]

There you go.....a single animal is not a study group.

[MDT]

There you go.....a single animal is not a study group.

Ding ding ding!!!!! :)
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!!!


And therefore, results speculative and certainly no conclusions may be drawn.

[Lankyrob]

There you go.....a single animal is not a study group.

I used to live on 7000+ calories per day therefore i conclude that all adult males will be perfectly healthy with a similar calorific intake.......:rolleyes:

[Akuma223]

There you go.....a single animal is not a study group.

+1, It isn't a proper experiment without a study group.

[formica]

why is this irrelevant argument being brought up again? what has it got to do with anything I am doing?

Or is it just another diversionary tactic, because the oldest Sav in the survey is 15 years old and has been kept with dry and cool cycles....its funny how people are able to ignore things like this to suit their own agenda. but, its also a predictable response when dogmatic and unscientific opinions are held, esp when they are questioned.

Here are some facts for you:

15 year old Sav, kept with dry and cool seasons in between ''optimal'', still alive today
9 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today
8 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today

additionally, 3 Savs died at ~5 years old, despite being kept in ''optimal'' conditions.


I hope over the next 9-12 months much more data can be collected, the target of 1000 animals is a long way off, but the survey continues.

[Aaron_S]

why is this irrelevant argument being brought up again? what has it got to do with anything I am doing?

Or is it just another diversionary tactic, because the oldest Sav in the survey is 15 years old and has been kept with dry and cool cycles....its funny how people are able to ignore things like this to suit their own agenda. but, its also a predictable response when dogmatic and unscientific opinions are held, esp when they are questioned.

Here are some facts for you:

15 year old Sav, kept with dry and cool seasons in between ''optimal'', still alive today
9 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today
8 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today

additionally, 3 Savs died at ~5 years old, despite being kept in ''optimal'' conditions.


I hope over the next 9-12 months much more data can be collected, the target of 1000 animals is a long way off, but the survey continues.

It is relevant because one animal (or 3) can be an exception to a rule. Just like a single person can drive drunk every single weekend and never experience an incident and then another guy does it once and kills someone.

Is the person who has never had a crash still right that driving drunk is safe and doesn't cause incidents? No they are not. A single (or 3) animals don't make a brand new rule.

Besides, you are taking surveys from around the globe I presume. Are the 6 animals you mentioned being fed the same diets? Held in the same enclosures? Given the exact same barometric pressures? Were they all collected/bought from the same place? Were they all raised from babies or were some "rescues" some months down the line? Have all of them been regularly vet checked and a necropsy done to see cause of death? Maybe those 3 had cancer or some sort of illness that had nothing to do with how they were kept. Happens to all animals, why would savannah monitors be any different?

All factors that could change any "scientific" research.

By all means, go ahead and do it because you will anyway but until you are able to control pretty much every facet of the "experiment" it will never prove anything.

[murrindindi]

dont care for what? that he survived in good health?

or that the oldest recorded captive Sav in the survey so far, also goes thru dry and cool seasons, and has somehow made it to 15 years old? ...while many that are kept at ''optimum'' conditions are lucky to live to 10

well I can see why that wouldn't sit well with many people

Hi, considering your monitor is still only around ONE YEAR old (or less?), to suggest it "survived in good health" is ludicrous, it`s also meaningless because you have no idea what "healthy" means for any captive Varanid.....

[formica]

It is relevant because one animal (or 3) can be an exception to a rule. Just like a single person can drive drunk every single weekend and never experience an incident and then another guy does it once and kills someone.

yes of course there are exceptions, I posted a thread called ''anomalies'', about that very topic, in relation to the survey. 3 exceptions on the other hand, is something worth investigating.


Besides, you are taking surveys from around the globe I presume.


yes, worldwide


Are the 6 animals you mentioned being fed the same diets?


yes, 50/50 inverts/whole prey (question is in survey)


Held in the same enclosures?


yes, all enclosures, apart from the oldest, where 6ft or larger, with soil/sand substrate for burrows. the oldest had soil/sand which was not deep enough for burrows. all had the same ambient humidity of 60%, all had the same basking spot tempreture (except the oldest, at 120), and all where provided with UV

(various questions in survey to determine husbandry)


Given the exact same barometric pressures?


this question was not asked, if the consensus is that this would be an important question to ask, then it will be added to the list for when the final validation take place.


Were they all collected/bought from the same place?


so far all but 5 entries have been Wild Farmed or Wild Caught Hatchlings, 3 where CB, and 2 listed as unknown origin


Were they all raised from babies or were some "rescues" some months down the line?


not specifically asked, can be added later on depending on consensus regarding its importance.


Have all of them been regularly vet checked and a necropsy done to see cause of death?


3 of the Savs entered into the database as deceased had been examined by a vet after death, 2 others had known medical problems diagnosed by vets prior to death.

(questions relating to death and professional consultations are included in the survey)


Maybe those 3 had cancer or some sort of illness that had nothing to do with how they were kept.


one Sav died at the age of 7 from cancer, the 3 listed above all died suddenly but cause of death was not found

(cause of death, as determined by a vet, is asked in the survey)


All factors that could change any "scientific" research.


there are far more factors than that, as many as possible where included in the survey to get as clear a picture as possible of the husbandry, source of the animal, veterinary involvement and other areas


i'm not the idiot you would like to think I am ;)

[formica]

It is relevant because one animal (or 3) can be an exception to a rule. Just like a single person can drive drunk every single weekend and never experience an incident and then another guy does it once and kills someone.

yes of course there are exceptions, I posted a thread called ''anomalies'', about that very topic, in relation to the survey. 3 exceptions on the other hand, is something worth investigating.


Besides, you are taking surveys from around the globe I presume.


yes, worldwide


Are the 6 animals you mentioned being fed the same diets?


yes, 50/50 inverts/whole prey (question is in survey)


Held in the same enclosures?


yes, all enclosures, apart from the oldest, where 6ft or larger, with soil/sand substrate for burrows. the oldest had soil/sand which was not deep enough for burrows. all had the same ambient humidity of 60%, all had the same basking spot tempreture (except the oldest, at 120), and all where provided with UV

(various questions in survey to determine husbandry)


Given the exact same barometric pressures?


this question was not asked, if the consensus is that this would be an important question to ask, then it will be added to the list for when the final validation take place.


Were they all collected/bought from the same place?


so far all but 5 entries have been Wild Farmed or Wild Caught Hatchlings, 3 where CB, and 2 listed as unknown origin


Were they all raised from babies or were some "rescues" some months down the line?


not specifically asked, can be added later on depending on consensus regarding its importance.


Have all of them been regularly vet checked and a necropsy done to see cause of death?


3 of the Savs entered into the database as deceased had been examined by a vet after death, 2 others had known medical problems diagnosed by vets prior to death.

(questions relating to death and professional consultations are included in the survey)


Maybe those 3 had cancer or some sort of illness that had nothing to do with how they were kept.


one Sav died at the age of 7 from cancer, the 3 listed above all died suddenly but cause of death was not found

(cause of death, as determined by a vet, is asked in the survey)


All factors that could change any "scientific" research.


there are far more factors than that, as many as possible where included in the survey to get as clear a picture as possible of the husbandry, source of the animal, veterinary involvement and other areas


i'm not the idiot you would like to think I am ;)

Hi, considering your monitor is still only around ONE YEAR old (or less?), to suggest it "survived in good health" is ludicrous, it`s also meaningless because you have no idea what "healthy" means for any captive Varanid.....

the specialist vet, who carried out the examination and blood tests, before and after, knows a allot more about what healthy means, than either myself, or you.

[Aaron_S]

yes of course there are exceptions, I posted a thread called ''anomalies'', about that very topic, in relation to the survey. 3 exceptions on the other hand, is something worth investigating.

You are welcome to spend your time doing whatever you want but 3, out of an ENTIRE world population begs investigation? I personally disagree.


yes, 50/50 inverts/whole prey (question is in survey)

Ah but what specific inverts are being fed? Are the feeders coming from the same source and fed the same food items across the board? Are the feeders all kept the same from the various places around the world?

See. This just brings more questions to the table than answers.



yes, all enclosures, apart from the oldest, where 6ft or larger, with soil/sand substrate for burrows. the oldest had soil/sand which was not deep enough for burrows. all had the same ambient humidity of 60%, all had the same basking spot tempreture (except the oldest, at 120), and all where provided with UV

(various questions in survey to determine husbandry)

They are not all kept the same. Why? You ranged the enclosures from 6ft to larger. That would indicate that some were kept with more room than others. Were the soils all brought from the same place? Did all of them have soil/sand at the same depth? Were all the soils bought or dug up from areas around their places?



this question was not asked, if the consensus is that this would be an important question to ask, then it will be added to the list for when the final validation take place.

The barometric pressure question I brought up matters because it is rumoured (nothing scientific about it) that in the ball python world the females/males can sense the pressure change. In general, it changes with a storm and everyone finds that these animals breed better during said storms. The thought process is that it triggers something in the snakes that has to do with the rainy season in Africa. The rainy season in Africa is breeding season for ball pythons. So if it's believed that ball pythons sense it and are affected it by it it could mean that savannah monitors MAY have the possibility as well. Pure conjecture on my part though and I'm okay with that.



so far all but 5 entries have been Wild Farmed or Wild Caught Hatchlings, 3 where CB, and 2 listed as unknown origin

Were they all farmed from the same place? Were they all wild caught from the same area? Were the farmed ones fed the same items as they are getting here? Could this be a factor? yes? No? Maybe?



not specifically asked, can be added later on depending on consensus regarding its importance.

I would believe knowing if the animal had bad husbandry given beforehand would be an important factor. Considering it could affect lifespan. Diet and the like...



3 of the Savs entered into the database as deceased had been examined by a vet after death, 2 others had known medical problems diagnosed by vets prior to death.

(questions relating to death and professional consultations are included in the survey)



one Sav died at the age of 7 from cancer, the 3 listed above all died suddenly but cause of death was not found

(cause of death, as determined by a vet, is asked in the survey)



there are far more factors than that, as many as possible where included in the survey to get as clear a picture as possible of the husbandry, source of the animal, veterinary involvement and other areas


i'm not the idiot you would like to think I am ;)



the specialist vet, who carried out the examination and blood tests, before and after, knows a allot more about what healthy means, than either myself, or you.

So "natural causes" was the determined factor in the 3 inconclusive deaths? Were these the young ones in "optimal" conditions or "cool/dry" seasons?

You are right. A lot of people know more about "healthy" than I do. The question to ask though is are all the animals seeing the same qualified vet? Are they seeing different vets with different levels of experience with not only savannah monitors but reptiles in general?

There are MANY cases where the vet believes they know more about reptiles when in fact they do not. I would believe my questions about their abilities would be apt.

My point is simple. There are FAR too many factors involved that are not accounted for in your experiment to determine anything more than conjecture at the expense of some animals.

As I said at the start by all means do as you please I am just pointing out areas of needed improvement to garner any real knowledge from this "experiment" for anyone involved or reading this.

[formica]

Y...I brought up matters because it is rumoured (nothing scientific about it)...Pure conjecture on my part though and I'm okay with that....

did you really just use that as part of an argument against an idea which is claimed to have no scientific basis? (despite the fact, that there is far more scientific evidence to suggest that dry season may well important)


So "natural causes" was the determined factor in the 3 inconclusive deaths? Were these the young ones in "optimal" conditions or "cool/dry" seasons?


again, No cause of death was found, and each one was kept at ''optimum''., if you dont know what optimum is, then read Infernalis' website.


You are right. A lot of people know more about "healthy" than I do. The question to ask though is are all the animals seeing the same qualified vet? Are they seeing different vets with different levels of experience with not only savannah monitors but reptiles in general?


that point was not directed at you, hence the quote.


As I said at the start by all means do as you please I am just pointing out areas of needed improvement to garner any real knowledge from this "experiment" for anyone involved or reading this.


once again, I never claimed this was a scientific experiment.

as for the survey, of course there are improvements which can be made, there are ALWAYS improvements which can be made.

[Aaron_S]

did you really just use that as part of an argument against an idea which is claimed to have no scientific basis? (despite the fact, that there is far more scientific evidence to suggest that dry season may well important)


I never said there's no scientific basis it's just that it's full of holes to come to any conclusive information. From your updates it's clear that you are coming to conclusions based on your simple findings.

I would also think if you were trying to have a scientific basis then you would account for all factors, such as the barometric pressure I mentioned, and have done the necessary research prior to see if there's any grounds for it.



again, No cause of death was found, and each one was kept at ''optimum''., if you dont know what optimum is, then read Infernalis' website.

It's why I posed questions. How do you know the person doing the necropsy was competent? Was it the same person across the board? It's why I mentioned the vet aspect of this "study" or whatever you call it.

You've brought in a lot of extra factors and trying to draw conclusions based on what you personally want to see. It's faulty at the ground level.

The foundation of your "study" is actually flawed. Why? You have no idea if anyone filling out the survey is lying or not. You have never met these people or know much about them. They could be lying because they don't want to be seen as a bad keeper.

All the best but as it currently stands you should go back to the drawing board or just stop.

I also noticed you didn't refute or respond to any of the other points I made. I take it you have no rebuttal to the again the fact that these are fundamental flaws within your "study" or whatever. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but at this point you're simply putting an animal (at least) at risk for you to prove some silly point.

[formica]

I never said there's no scientific basis it's just that it's full of holes to come to any conclusive information. From your updates it's clear that you are coming to conclusions based on your simple findings.

I would also think if you were trying to have a scientific basis then you would account for all factors, such as the barometric pressure I mentioned, and have done the necessary research prior to see if there's any grounds for it.





It's why I posed questions. How do you know the person doing the necropsy was competent? Was it the same person across the board? It's why I mentioned the vet aspect of this "study" or whatever you call it.

You've brought in a lot of extra factors and trying to draw conclusions based on what you personally want to see. It's faulty at the ground level.

The foundation of your "study" is actually flawed. Why? You have no idea if anyone filling out the survey is lying or not. You have never met these people or know much about them. They could be lying because they don't want to be seen as a bad keeper.

All the best but as it currently stands you should go back to the drawing board or just stop.

I also noticed you didn't refute or respond to any of the other points I made. I take it you have no rebuttal to the again the fact that these are fundamental flaws within your "study" or whatever. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but at this point you're simply putting an animal (at least) at risk for you to prove some silly point.

what study? who said I was doing a scientific study?

of course I dont know if anyone is lying, how does anyone know if someone is lying? frankly I believe that you are picking holes for arguments sake, not because you actually give a toss about this discussion.

ALL of the information will be validated once it reaches a large enough data set, systems are in place to ensure this can happen and provide a useful starting point for further discussions on the topic.

at least I am doing something and finding out more information, rather than simply relying on a dogmatic approach which completely ignores 60% of a Savs life cycles.

what are YOU doing? other than arguing the toss on the internet...

[Aaron_S]

what study? who said I was doing a scientific study?

of course I dont know if anyone is lying, how does anyone know if someone is lying? frankly I believe that you are picking holes for arguments sake, not because you actually give a toss about this discussion.

ALL of the information will be validated once it reaches a large enough data set, systems are in place to ensure this can happen and provide a useful starting point for further discussions on the topic.

at least I am doing something and finding out more information, rather than simply relying on a dogmatic approach which completely ignores 60% of a Savs life cycles.

what are YOU doing? other than arguing the toss on the internet...

I don't know what you call it so I put "study" in quotation marks and called it "whatever you call it" as well. I have no clue what you are doing and "study" or "experiment" is the best I can use to describe it.

See you have missed every point I made here. There is no system in place to ensure any useful starting point for further discussion. There will not be a large enough data set because I have pointed out many flaws to the way things are currently being conducted. Far too many variables.

You seem to dislike my posts as you don't respond to the actual points but now simply saying I'm here "poking holes" for arguments sake. I do not need to poke holes because you already had them.
Secondly, am I not allowed to discuss? Is that not what YOU say gets people to change for the better? If no one is pushing against what's being said then how do grow for the better? Or does this only count for when YOU do it to others?

Also, before you come tell me that that is what you're doing with your little "thing" (pushing against the status quo) I would like to say that is fine but you need to remove your blinders and fix the foundation and plug the holes I pointed out. By all means, do something worthwhile but ensure it actually makes sense before doing it.




Here's a good example of something simple. Brian and BHB (big snake breeder) wanted to do a small "experiment" that he determined was on a small scale and NOT to be taken as the be all end all to snake feeding.

He wanted to see what kind of feeding regime would affect some corn snake growth. Different prey sizes and whatever else...
Anyway, he took corns ALL from the same clutch. Kept them ALL on the same rack system in the same room in the exact same manner. Fed them the same prey item (various sizes and frequency which was the experiment) which he got from the same supplier feeding the same thing to all the adults.

That's already much better than yours. He controlled everything he possibly could to exclude it from the findings. You should learn to do this as I have pointed out. Many factors you have overlooked.

[formica]

you have no idea what systems are in place
you haven't even read the Survey to see what is actually being asked
you havent seen the plan for validation
you havent read the discussions on additional data collection and ensuring that the results are validated as well as possible

It is a Survey, not a study. You know nothing about it, and are arguing about it with a preconception about what it is.

I have answered all the points you made, which I felt where relevenet to the SURVEY, and nothing more, because I do not believe that you have a genuine interest in the subject, you just want to troll the thread.

thats the last reply you are going to get from me, unless you have a genuinely interesting point to make about the topic at hand, ie, dry season and savannah monitors, in which case I will discuss with you with enthusiasm.

[KORBIN5895]

Why are you people still talking to him? He doesn't care about anything but proving himself right, even of it means the health of his sav.

[Terranaut]

I have to agree that the sample size is way to small to use as any sort of guide or direction for making changes to the care of a persons sav. I think just posting info on longer living captive savs is a good idea. Share what you do. Let others pull from your data. Remember people used to keep boas on pine shavings at one point....look at husbandry practices today.

[Aaron_S]

you have no idea what systems are in place
you haven't even read the Survey to see what is actually being asked
you havent seen the plan for validation
you havent read the discussions on additional data collection and ensuring that the results are validated as well as possible

It is a Survey, not a study. You know nothing about it, and are arguing about it with a preconception about what it is.

I have answered all the points you made, which I felt where relevenet to the SURVEY, and nothing more, because I do not believe that you have a genuine interest in the subject, you just want to troll the thread.

thats the last reply you are going to get from me, unless you have a genuinely interesting point to make about the topic at hand, ie, dry season and savannah monitors, in which case I will discuss with you with enthusiasm.

Is your study not about cool/dry season being a better set up for captive savannahs? Did you not just do this with your own as an experiment? I believe I read a thread about you starting it.

I have an interest in this because it's further knowledge about reptiles in general. You are making a generalization that I do not seek out additional information about reptiles. Of course this intrigues me.

You have not answered my points because you never answered the questions about feeders, enclosure sizes or qualified vetrinary care. You used the survey, that it asks these questions, to varify your beliefs.

You use this survey to validate your view of this cool/dry season thing you have attempted. That is all.

You say I am here to "troll" but I have asked many pertinent questions in regards to this "survey". You do not like me asking probing questions because it doesn't agree with you.

I have made my interests known by asking questions about feeders, vets and the like and you ignore them as "trolling attempts". You never once tried to answer them simply referring to "I do not know the survey".

The only thing I do know is if you're taking a global survey to help show some view of yours that at best it's inconclusive based on the flaws I have presented.
You did not refute or respond to my example of a "survey" or "study" or "experiment" done by Brian. He wanted information like you do and like you attempting the cool/dry season thing with your animal he did the same with his in his own way. The difference is he took precautions to ensure results could not be skewed by other factors.

I do not need to respond again because you refuse to engage in discussion and throw me aside as a "troll" in which I assure you I am not. If there's anything you want to ask or say to me you only need read previous posts of mine to get your answer as I believe we will end up running in circles.

All the best to you Formica. If you wish for additional help feel free to PM me.

[mdfmonitor]

Good intentions, but it's so hard to translate keepers own perception of their husbandry into actual fact & results. :)

[Terranaut]

I would say old and disease free would be the only indicators for this

[Rob_H]

Great idea for a study. Very interested to hear the results of the survey so please keep us updated. Regarding your monitor: the conditions are well within the experiences found in the wild, so assuming you're keeping a close eye on its health as you said (maybe you can post photos up here so people can judge for themselves every now and then?) there's no problem. Well done for taking some initiative.

[Pirarucu]

I will stick with what I said before. This is risky and unnecessary. I have no problem with you doing it, as it isn't something they can't handle if done properly. However, I will take issue with your claiming success after a single cycle with one animal, especially when you have not kept one before and thus have no baseline from which to determine whether you have been successful or not. That is like someone keeping their first Sav alive for a year in a glass tank on sand with no heat and then claiming that is the best way to keep them. Nothing (visibly) bad happened yet, so it must be the right way to do things. In addition, you cite several of your survey results that seem to support your conclusion. However, this is an online survey, with no way of knowing whether the statements made by those taking it are anywhere close to reality. Perhaps they are lying, perhaps they are misinformed, or possibly they are interpreting some of the questions or answers differently than you are. Who knows? They could be telling the truth, but we have no way of knowing that for sure. You say you will be validating the results once you have a large data set. Until you have successfully, without a doubt, verified all of those reports, why don't we restrain ourselves from drawing conclusions from them? Which brings me to my final issue. You are not conducting a test, nor are you drawing fair results from your survey. You have decided for yourself what the answer is, and seem to be paying attention only to the results that support that conclusion, the only verified example of which is your own. Again, congrats. Your sav didn't die after a month or two of suboptimal conditions. Here's a medal.

[formica]

...I will take issue with your claiming success after a single cycle with one animal

why don't we restrain ourselves from drawing conclusions from them?

I have not posted up any conclusions! perhaps you assumed that I had, based on the fact that others have inferred conclucions on my post and then argued against said conclusions, which I myself had not written.

nor did I claim success, but simply reported that my Sav is in good health after a short time under the conditions as described in the original post.

let me repost it for you to clarify:


Happy to report that after a short dry season simulation, my Sav is in perfect health, some weight loss, as to be expected, (1.02kg before, 1.012kg after)

now that the humidity has been increased outside of his high-humidity box, activity and apatite has increased significantly over the last week.

I have added lots of seeds (bird seed and grass seed), and enclosure is gettng ''rain'' every day in the afternoon, I havent increased feeding yet, I will do that once the seeds start to sprout, although there are a fair few crickets in the enclosure anyway that have been happily breeding away



Originally Posted by Terranaut View Post
I do have a question....who owns the oldest captive monitor and how do they keep it? Personally when and if I do get a monitor this would be my guide and not nature.

15 this year - according to the results so far on the Savannah Monitor Longevity Survey, it has been kept with access to Sunlight for UV, a 120f basking spot, and, both cooler and drier seasonal variations.



You use this survey to validate your view of this cool/dry season thing you have attempted. That is all.

no i didnt, I answered a question which Terranaut had posed, with the information I had available - all I have done thru this entire debacle, is ask questions about currently accepted practices and how it reflects the needs of Savs based on their evolutionary adaptions, I want to know how the two compare, and am well aware of the scientific process required to gain conclusive answers, and am also aware, and made it clear that I was aware, of the limitations that all of this brings up

until someone with enough money to support 50 or more Savs thru their entire life, and all the veterinary bills required for testing, so that proper number crunching can be done, well there is nothing additional I can do is there!

Once the survey is complete, it can be used as a basis of further study into the monitors which have been added into it, but right now, no one has a clue really how old monitors are getting and under what conditions, just lots of speculation and anecdotal evidence. (edit: apart from one study into the way in which high basking temps reduce the risk of developing many common Sav health conditions, eg kidney failure)


until someone proves to me, that the 60% of a Savs life cycle which is being ignored by current husbandry techniques, is not important, I CANNOT believe that it is not important, there is not a single animal on the planet (studied so far) which does not benefit from its periods of dormancy, or does not rely on the cycles of season in order to survive and be healthy, regardless of whether those seasons bring plenty of food or apparently extreme hardship.




Great idea for a study. Very interested to hear the results of the survey so please keep us updated. Regarding your monitor: the conditions are well within the experiences found in the wild, so assuming you're keeping a close eye on its health as you said (maybe you can post photos up here so people can judge for themselves every now and then?) there's no problem. Well done for taking some initiative.

before and after pics would have been a good idea!



I would say old and disease free would be the only indicators for this

definitely


Good intentions, but it's so hard to translate keepers own perception of their husbandry into actual fact & results. :)

true, but I dont have a zoo, a uni or a (herd?) of Savs at my disposal, so I do what I can :)

[Terranaut]

Not owning a sav I didn't pay much attention to the numbers in the first post. After reading a bit on savs today I decided to look at the humidity levels where they are from. To my surprise the humidity map I looked at did not resemble the conditions you mentioned in your first post. It's rarely 30% humidity there. The "dry" season still seldom dips below 75%. Unless I am reading this wrong.

http://fs.weatherspark.com.s3.amazonaws.com/production/reports/year/000/029/219/2fb3553e/relative_humidity_percent_pct.png

I think the fluctuations are far less than your study. Considering the chance of gout and other issues savs face from dry air I don't think this good for your sav at all. Now if your dry season was 75% instead of the 95% norm there (yuk...sweat city) it might not be badn. I am not a weather expert but the numbers don't match your study. Where did you get your weather data from?
How did you come up with your numbers?
Just curious.

[formica]

Not owning a sav I didn't pay much attention to the numbers in the first post. After reading a bit on savs today I decided to look at the humidity levels where they are from. To my surprise the humidity map I looked at did not resemble the conditions you mentioned in your first post. It's rarely 30% humidity there. The "dry" season still seldom dips below 75%. Unless I am reading this wrong.

http://fs.weatherspark.com.s3.amazonaws.com/production/reports/year/000/029/219/2fb3553e/relative_humidity_percent_pct.png

I think the fluctuations are far less than your study. Considering the chance of gout and other issues savs face from dry air I don't think this good for your sav at all. Now if your dry season was 75% instead of the 95% norm there (yuk...sweat city) it might not be badn. I am not a weather expert but the numbers don't match your study. Where did you get your weather data from?
How did you come up with your numbers?
Just curious.

the humidity varies massively across the African continent and within the Savs territories, some areas remain higher in humidity than others - how this impacts on Savs is an important question - one answer (somewhere on this forum i think) is that Savs are not found in large numbers in those areas, compared to areas which experience a true dry season, however that is not something I can find scientific studies into

(perhaps the studies going on at the moment are looking into this? is that something that Daniel Bennett's work can tell us?)

the numbers I used are based on a wide range of sources, talking to people who have taken readings of their enclosures, and looking at the humidity and temperature levels of areas that Savs are found in large numbers, various recommended books on the subjects - more input is required in this area, but the figures are generally not disputed in themselves, although the variables are more complex and numerous than I have used in the original post, the ones being monitored and adjusted are the ones I have decided are probably the most important

But back to population density in tropical areas which do not experience a dry season, Savs are known to live as far as the Congo, and it would be very interesting to find out how well they do there. They do not seem as common in those areas, as they are further north where dry seasons occur, population density is a good indicator of how well suited an animal is to its enviroment - but currently those numbers need to be confirmed on a large scale i think

[Terranaut]

There would also be a huge variation in prey between those areas as well. To be honest , I think your doing narrow research on a vastly variable subject. You should narrow your experiment to studying what does well in captivity as oposed to attempting to simulate nature or if you do wish to try to mimic nature then choose one local and stick with it. You also mentioned measurements from other keepers enclosures? Do these people simulate dry season? If not shouldn't you not use their readings? If you wish to continue may I suggest choosing a sav heavy location and adjusting your husbandry to match the daily weather for that area. Seems the best choice to give validation to your theory. If the dry season is that important then your sav should live a long healthy life and that is the only true indicator here. IMHO

[MDT]

When in undergrad, my herpetology prof was studying the natural history of Uta s. stansburiana. This was essentially a lifelong pursuit. Not only did he go on multiple collecting trips for specimens, but he spent almost every summer in the desert observing both the animal and the environment. The SW desert of the US is significantly smaller than the range for Sav monitors. But despite the much smaller range, the countless pages of data were staggering. And to my knowledge, he is still working on that species (that was 1984, btw)

I say this to echo Terranaut. Regardless of your survey, regardless of your study group of one animal. Your conclusions/observations/whatever you are calling them are meaningless. It will simply further solidify in your mind that your way of husbandry is correct. Whether accurate or not. Your observational group is too small, your variables are not controlled and too numerous. Just enjoy your lizard. Make a comfortable home for him. Watch it grow and hopefully live a long, predator free life in the UK.

[formica]

There would also be a huge variation in prey between those areas as well. To be honest , I think your doing narrow research on a vastly variable subject. You should narrow your experiment to studying what does well in captivity as oposed to attempting to simulate nature or if you do wish to try to mimic nature then choose one local and stick with it. You also mentioned measurements from other keepers enclosures? Do these people simulate dry season? If not shouldn't you not use their readings? If you wish to continue may I suggest choosing a sav heavy location and adjusting your husbandry to match the daily weather for that area. Seems the best choice to give validation to your theory. If the dry season is that important then your sav should live a long healthy life and that is the only true indicator here. IMHO

I said above, the numbers I used where based on known high population density areas - the limits of the adjustments I made, where based on readings on captives (for eg minimum low temp in substrate burrows, max basking temp, burrow humidity etc etc), to ensure that the Sav had access to a safe environment (ie one that it was known to tolerate in the wild), at all times

Yes diet is another important factor, and difficult to judge, what we do know about the food chain, is that during dry season plants die off, this reduces the insect population, and the population of those animals which prey on said insects, and infact all the other animals in the area including grazers, scavengers and predetors are reduced in numbers, the chain follows all the way upto predators like Savs, which are very difficult to find above ground during dry season and must be dug up (Savs are an important food source for locals) - so we know that the type of food available to a Sav would be very diffrent to that available during rainy season - an interested party has offered to send me back some data when they visit Ghana this year, and food/animal types and availability is one area which would be interesting to look into

When in undergrad, my herpetology prof was studying the natural history of Uta s. stansburiana. This was essentially a lifelong pursuit. Not only did he go on multiple collecting trips for specimens, but he spent almost every summer in the desert observing both the animal and the environment. The SW desert of the US is significantly smaller than the range for Sav monitors. But despite the much smaller range, the countless pages of data were staggering. And to my knowledge, he is still working on that species (that was 1984, btw)

I say this to echo Terranaut. Regardless of your survey, regardless of your study group of one animal. Your conclusions/observations/whatever you are calling them are meaningless. It will simply further solidify in your mind that your way of husbandry is correct. Whether accurate or not. Your observational group is too small, your variables are not controlled and too numerous. Just enjoy your lizard. Make a comfortable home for him. Watch it grow and hopefully live a long, predator free life in the UK.

I am not trying to conduct a scientific experiment, I have said that at least a dozen times already.

I do not believe that ignoring 60% of an animals life cycle is a good thing, and until it is proven otherwise, my mind wont be changed on that point

[MDT]

my mind wont be changed on that point

That part has been established.

[Terranaut]

I also don't see how this is 60% of the animals life cycle. I see 40% at best? Please explain?

[formica]

I also don't see how this is 60% of the animals life cycle. I see 40% at best? Please explain?

rainy seasons lasts from 3 to 9 months, varying by location, and year on year. average 4-6 months, with 1 month of very heavy rain. some years it doesnt rain at all.

[lady_bug87]

I said above, the numbers I used where based on known high population density areas - the limits of the adjustments I made, where based on readings on captives (for eg minimum low temp in substrate burrows, max basking temp, burrow humidity etc etc), to ensure that the Sav had access to a safe environment (ie one that it was known to tolerate in the wild), at all times

Yes diet is another important factor, and difficult to judge, what we do know about the food chain, is that during dry season plants die off, this reduces the insect population, and the population of those animals which prey on said insects, and infact all the other animals in the area including grazers, scavengers and predetors are reduced in numbers, the chain follows all the way upto predators like Savs, which are very difficult to find above ground during dry season and must be dug up (Savs are an important food source for locals) - so we know that the type of food available to a Sav would be very diffrent to that available during rainy season - an interested party has offered to send me back some data when they visit Ghana this year, and food/animal types and availability is one area which would be interesting to look into



I am not trying to conduct a scientific experiment, I have said that at least a dozen times already.

I do not believe that ignoring 60% of an animals life cycle is a good thing, and until it is proven otherwise, my mind wont be changed on that point

Now I haven't read your survey, I would be interested in reading the questions

When studying for my own undergraduate degree in took various courses in which I conducted social surveys, focus groups, and came up with procedural criteria for social studies.

From what I know about those things I think you're experiment isn't going to answer what it should. As others have said its all too broad.

For example if you wanted to use natural populations of monitors as a control group you would have to collect specimens, examine the weather patterns of the area, examine stomach content, stool samples etc. Tagging specimens for follow up over the course of an extended period of time.

Then using a large captive collection which you would have to keep yourself, set up a number of enclosures with different keeping parameters some of which should match wild populations, others should be kept in optimal conditions without dry season. Etc.

This survey and your subsequent changes in the way you're keeping this animal are in my opinion a teeny tiny itty bitty part of something. The issue is you're using semantics to validate this as far more complete research than it really is

[formica]

The survey is not trying to prove or disprove anything, and has nothing to do with this thread, other than answering terranuts question.

The survey is simply collecting information about husbandry techniques/parameters, captive or wild sourcing, age and cause of death.

[lady_bug87]

I would disagree based on your other responses to this thread. You continue to mention that ignoring 60% Of the year in the weather cycle is wrong and you mention others providing similar situations.

Also I personally haven't seen any evidence of wild sourcing. Or comparison between wild and captive population

If you weren't trying to prove something than why defend yourself in that way?

[formica]

I would disagree based on your other responses to this thread. You continue to mention that ignoring 60% Of the year in the weather cycle is wrong and you mention others providing similar situations.

If you weren't trying to prove something than why defend yourself in that way?

I mentioned 1 providing similar situations (although infact i did not detail anything beyond the basic survey responses), as part of a response to a specific question which was only loosely connected to the topic at hand - everyone else jumped on the answer and used it to attack what the thread was actually about, the only reason I responded, was to explain what the survey was about, rather than leaving it with responses which made incorrect assertions about its content and purpose.

The 60% of life cycle figure has nothing to do with the Survey whatsoever.

[mdfmonitor]

In the right wild environment they find their own conditions that suit them, if they fail they die or get eaten!

I've kept savs/b/throat/nile/ackies & argus now & one thing they all have in common is they can grow very quick, even held back a year they can still catch up to what size they would of got by the end of the 1st year.

If heated properly & not over fed they'll will still eat very small insects, even at 4.5 foot they'll take small locust.

So nature has moulded them into animals that can grow very quick & take advantage of seasonal food resources & environments, in captivity we can create these perfect environments all year round.

So as a keeper we need ideally not to over do the growth as in feeding 4 days out the week as they get older/larger & putting them through cooler periods. I recently put Lenny (vph) through a cooling session for 3 weeks till the weather hotted up to early across here in the UK, i was quickly told they don't need cooling. I went on to explain i'd dropped the temps down to 140f surface basking spot & around 73f background temps, his usual temps are 160f surface basking spot & around 76f back ground temps, this shut him down.

Many keepers still keep their animals at the temps i was using to cool Lenny, point been you should have times they are not running at full pelt, but at the same time you need the higher temps to maintain a good fit body condition, you can't achieve that on 120f & 75f background heat.

A good sized run with deep substrate/ or decent large soil boxes will allow your sav to find what it's needs as opposed to what we think it needs, they do need slow periods as in a dry season but the sav will find the right temp underground with the right humidity till the correct environment returns above ground, so a good set-up backed with the right temps it won't bother the sav because that's what they evolved to do.

[Pirarucu]

I have not posted up any conclusions! perhaps you assumed that I had, based on the fact that others have inferred conclucions on my post and then argued against said conclusions, which I myself had not written.

nor did I claim success, but simply reported that my Sav is in good health after a short time under the conditions as described in the original post.My apologies. I wasn't aware that saying something like this (again, with no prior experience to base this off of) is not considered a claim of success.Happy to report that after a short dry season simulation, my Sav is in perfect health
What was that about not drawing any conclusions?
I do not believe that ignoring 60% of an animals life cycle is a good thing, and until it is proven otherwise, my mind wont be changed on that point
Personally, I do not believe that ignoring the advice given to you on this thread by 100% of the verified successful breeders and keepers posting here is a good thing, and until it is proven otherwise, my mind won't be changed on that point.

[formica]

What was that about not drawing any conclusions?

not my conclusion, but that of a specialist reptile vet who saw him before and after - as I stated would be happening at the start of the thread.

[Pirarucu]

not my conclusion, but that of a specialist reptile vet who saw him before and after - as I stated would be happening at the start of the thread.I was referring to the quotation below that statement actually, but both work. Who specifically is the vet? What are their credentials? It's been well established that even specialist reptile vets don't necessarily know much when it comes to Varanids...

[murrindindi]

Hi, I`d like to ask for the results of the x-rays, blood tests, etc, etc before and after the experiment, I think they would be most interesting. Also, what you and the vet consider to be "perfect health" for a captive Varanid of any species? Thanks!

[murrindindi]

I went on to explain i'd dropped the temps down to 140f surface basking spot & around 73f background temps, his usual temps are 160f surface basking spot & around 76f back ground temps, this shut him down.

Many keepers still keep their animals at the temps i was using to cool Lenny, point been you should have times they are not running at full pelt, but at the same time you need the higher temps to maintain a good fit body condition, you can't achieve that on 120f & 75f background heat.

A good sized run with deep substrate/ or decent large soil boxes will allow your sav to find what it's needs as opposed to what we think it needs, they do need slow periods as in a dry season but the sav will find the right temp underground with the right humidity till the correct environment returns above ground, so a good set-up backed with the right temps it won't bother the sav because that's what they evolved to do.

Hi, Mark, I`d like to ask you what you think happens to the MANY species that are active year round in the wild ("running at full pelt") as you put it, do they burn themselves out and die prematurely?
Have you ever kept species that spend much of their life high in the canopies in the wild, do they experience basking surface temps of 160f on a very regular basis, and if not, do they "shut down" (or die prematurely)?
How do you know Savannah monitors would suffer if the conditions supported activity and all that goes with it throughout the year?
You are giving figures that may be suportive to some species/individuals but not to others, I feel generalising in this way is a mistake.
These are simply questions, NOT criticisms! ;)

[formica]

there was no cause for X-Rays, that is not the kind of risk level procedure I would ask to be done for the sake of it

when and if I get the blood test results by email, I will post them up.

what do I consider perfect health? I would consider a specialist's opinion on the matter, to be the only reliable answer to that question

[MDT]

Why do you say there was "no cause for x-rays"? You are trying to be thorough, no? Can you definitively say there has been no calcium deposition in the kidneys? Are you concerned about radiation exposure? If so, what exactly is the "risk level" associated there? As for the blood tests, you'd subject your animal to a stress producing painful procedure with zero validation of the results? What is the "normal" sodium level or creatinine level for a Savanna monitor? Does your vet *really* know? Has anyone ever done field collecting of blood data of multiple specimens? I ask partly because I truly don't know that answer. But if the answer is "no", then you just have a page of numbers that fit into a "normal range" for "a lizard".

[formica]

Why do you say there was "no cause for x-rays"? You are trying to be thorough, no? Can you definitively say there has been no calcium deposition in the kidneys? Are you concerned about radiation exposure? If so, what exactly is the "risk level" associated there? As for the blood tests, you'd subject your animal to a stress producing painful procedure with zero validation of the results? What is the "normal" sodium level or creatinine level for a Savanna monitor? Does your vet *really* know? Has anyone ever done field collecting of blood data of multiple specimens? I ask partly because I truly don't know that answer. But if the answer is "no", then you just have a page of numbers that fit into a "normal range" for "a lizard".

I do not have answers for any of those questions except, yes the risks from radiation exposure is of concern when there is no clear benefit from the procedure, and that I have no reason to mistrust the vets judgement or experience

[murrindindi]

there was no cause for X-Rays, that is not the kind of risk level procedure I would ask to be done for the sake of it

when and if I get the blood test results by email, I will post them up.

what do I consider perfect health? I would consider a specialist's opinion on the matter, to be the only reliable answer to that question

If your exotic vet is not a specialist in Varanids he/she is NOT a reliable source in determining what is "perfect" health or "normal" for these animals!

[formica]

If your exotic vet is not a specialist in Varanids he/she is NOT a reliable source in determining what is "perfect" health or "normal" for these animals!

you mean that he is less reliable than random people on the internet ;)

but any way, his knowledge of Varanid husbandry was spot on, and his experience with them goes back many years, he clearly spends his time researching all the animals that he works with, as any professional would be expected to do - not doing so, would be unprofessional.

demanding that vets specialize in one family of animals, is just a little bit unreasonable and unrealistic, that's what scientists are for.

[mdfmonitor]

you mean that he is less reliable than random people on the internet ;)

but any way, his knowledge of Varanid husbandry was spot on, and his experience with them goes back many years, he clearly spends his time researching all the animals that he works with, as any professional would be expected to do - not doing so, would be unprofessional.

demanding that vets specialize in one family of animals, is just a little bit unreasonable and unrealistic, that's what scientists are for.

formica you are way way over the pint of defending your findings right or wrong, leave it be , give us some feed back another 6 months time & see how things are going.

[Terranaut]

Yup ....over the pint for sure ;)
Do you have any pics of your sav and it's enclosure?
Just curious.

[mdfmonitor]

Yup ....over the pint for sure ;)
Do you have any pics of your sav and it's enclosure?
Just curious.

not again lol!! :)

[formica]

cant really expect me to not respond to peoples posts, can you?

I have searched every website I could think of, contacted various veterinary associations in the UK, and none have been able to point me n the direction of a Varanid specialist vet, still waiting to hear back from a few, but I have my doubts that they even exist outside of science labs.



Yup ....over the pint for sure ;)
Do you have any pics of your sav and it's enclosure?
Just curious.

yeah I'll get round to putting some up recent ones up eventually! been a while - did try and get some top down shots a little while ago, and got bitten for my efforts lol

[varanus_mad]

Hi formica please can I have the name of your vet thank you.