Using exhaled breath to create co2?

[mr_weatherby]

I want to start breeding my own mice just to try it, but that is not why I'm posting.

I'm posting because someone told me of a way, to euthanize a mouse. Everyone pretty much knows the old gas chamber trick with a co2 tank or vinegar/ baking soda, etc. The way that she mentioned, was to hook a straw to a piece of tupperware, poke a small hole in the lid, and breathe slowly into the straw for 45 seconds (pinching the straw to re-inhale). The idea is, that the co2 created by exhaling will put the mouse down. She claims to do this with her mice, but I have my doubts.

Anyone else ever heard of this and/or know how effective it is?

I know that may be a stupid question to some, but I'm asking for the sake of future knowledge.

[Donnie]

I would guess she is talking nonsense as we only breath out about 5% co2 with each breath and the more you breath into the straw you can't force out all the other gases and just leave the co2 from previous breaths to make the concentration of co2 higher. I may be wrong but that the way I see it.

[Sharlynn93]

if this is true, then CPR would kill people...not revive them...we breathe out 18-19% oxygen...this wouldn't work...

[dinosaurdammit]

if this is true, then CPR would kill people...not revive them...we breathe out 18-19% oxygen...this wouldn't work...


CPR has changed to just chest compressions as far as my last class went

[Lankyrob]

Just breK their necks, much more humane

[Sharlynn93]

CPR has changed to just chest compressions as far as my last class went

but it was done the other way for how many decades without killing people?

[Donnie]

CPR has changed to just chest compressions as far as my last class went

over here I think it is now 30 chest pumps to 1 breath (I would ask my Mrs but she is sleeping now so I'll confirm tomorrow)

[Starbuck]

the straw/human breath method sounds ridiculous. I would not recommend it. Cervical dislocation is probably your best bet, and pretty easy as far as i know for a few mice. I would only use CO2 on a commercial scale, and i would not recommend the homemade vinegar/baking soda trick, i would use a co2 gas tank.

[Awaiting Abyss]

I use the vinegar and baking soda method and it works great for the ones I cull. Just make sure not to do it quickly so they will drift unconscious and then pass. You should not see them gasping.

[MDT]

if this is true, then CPR would kill people...not revive them...we breathe out 18-19% oxygen...this wouldn't work...

I can tell you that "bystander CPR" doesn't do a lot...despite what the AHA says. It's not the breaths that do much of anything. The compressions are what "circulates" blood (fairly poorly at that)...

btw...room air O2 is approx 21%, exhaled O2 roughly 14%...

And it was "done for decades" because we "thought" it worked. Research has taught us otherwise, thus the revisions to protocols.

[infernalis]

your friend is talking nonsense.

bottled CO2 or a block of dry ice dropped into a container of warm water.

seems "she" (whoever she is) took too many drugs during biology class in school.

[formica]

using you breath is nonsense, and using the uncontrolled reaction of baking soda/vinegar is also not a humane way to do it, it needs to be done properly if you dont want to make the rodents suffer.

You need a bottle and a guage, it must be done in 2 stages, first anesthesia with a low concentration, then euthanasia with a high concentration.

If you flood the chamber with high levels of CO2 in one go, you will cause the rodents significant pain as they die

[Awaiting Abyss]

using you breath is nonsense, and using the uncontrolled reaction of baking soda/vinegar is also not a humane way to do it, it needs to be done properly if you dont want to make the rodents suffer.

You need a bottle and a guage, it must be done in 2 stages, first anesthesia with a low concentration, then euthanasia with a high concentration.

If you flood the chamber with high levels of CO2 in one go, you will cause the rodents significant pain as they die

The baking soda and vinegar method is used by quite a many mouseries that I know of; it is quite humane unless it is done too quickly.
Dry ice works as well.

[formica]

The baking soda and vinegar method is used by quite a many mouseries that I know of; it is quite humane unless it is done too quickly.
Dry ice works as well.

probably because it is cheap to do - however I'm not convinced that the levels can be controlled enough to anesthetize first and therefore be humane, i need to see it to believe it tbh

[Robin.M]

You're ending a creatures life.... stop trying to cut corners on cost. Do it properly and make sure there is very little or NO suffering.

Rob

[Awaiting Abyss]

probably because it is cheap to do - however I'm not convinced that the levels can be controlled enough to anesthetize first and therefore be humane, i need to see it to believe it tbh

I can't demonstrate because I have no way of showing you, but I watch my mice fall asleep before passing.

[MDT]

First comes anoxia....whether painful or not, a sentient being will sense hunger for air and "struggle" for breath. I have no way of *knowing* what is going through the mouse's brain with the onset of anoxia. I do know that if I can't breathe, I'm gonna move heaven and earth to get my next breath. After that, you become unconscious. With depleted O2 in the cardiac muscle, comes arrhythmia and then death. You are not awake when this happens. But what you go through to get to that point must really suck bad.

[formica]

First comes anoxia....whether painful or not, a sentient being will sense hunger for air and "struggle" for breath. I have no way of *knowing* what is going through the mouse's brain with the onset of anoxia. I do know that if I can't breathe, I'm gonna move heaven and earth to get my next breath. After that, you become unconscious. With depleted O2 in the cardiac muscle, comes arrhythmia and then death. You are not awake when this happens. But what you go through to get to that point must really suck bad.

thats why you start with a very low dose, just a couple of % it works as an anesthetic, the rodents do not struggle or show any signs of fear when done properly, but a couple of % too much, will as you say, cause fear, aswell as damaging the lungs and causing all sorts of nasty physiological changes

[MDT]

It's not anesthetic...it's hypercapnea. I'm not aware of any pain receptor involvement with hypercapnea. There is no anesthetic quality, just plain old loss of consciousness before cardiac dysrhythmia and death.

edit: this may be sematics (stuporous vs "anesthetic") however, you should not be lulled into the idea that air hunger and struggle does not occur.

[formica]

CO2 is an anesthetic, and acts as an analgesic, it has been used as one for close to 200 years because of this, its all about the dose, high doses = high levels of stress and pain then anesthesia, low controlled doses = analgesia and anesthesia.

its not used any more because there are less risky and more efficient anesthetics today

i've seen the reaction of rodents to both high and low doses, the diffrence is stark

[MDT]

Dude...it is not an anesthetic or an analgesia. Next time you have surgery, tell them you want CO2 as your anesthetic agent. I'll pay to watch.

[Robin.M]

CO2 is an anesthetic

Making this statement is as ludicrous as stating, "Blood-letting (often called, "bleeding") is a cure for the common cold".

Sure, CO2 HAS been used in the past (Over 150 years ago) as a Anesthetic. But talking about medical knowledge from 150 years ago is ridiculous.

I'd no sooner take CO2 when going under for surgery then I would let a GP "bleed" me if I went in with Streptococcal pharyngitis (Strep Throat).

Rob

[formica]

yes, it is both...

http://altweb.jhsph.edu/wc6/paper101.pdf


its not used any more because there are less risky and more efficient anesthetics today

as i said.

[Hotchkiss]

Does anyone know about euthanasia by helium?

[shaunyboy]

Just breK their necks, much more humane


^^^^^
this

cheers shaun

[KORBIN5895]

Dude...it is not an anesthetic or an analgesia. Next time you have surgery, tell them you want CO2 as your anesthetic agent. I'll pay to watch.

What do you know? How dare you question the medical knowledge of a producer?

[MDT]

What do you know? How dare you question the medical knowledge of a producer?

Yeah, I know...I'm just makin' stuff up. You know...practicing physician and all...I really don't know this stuff.

Next time I'm reducing a dislocated shoulder in the ED, I'm gonna have the patient suck in a whole bunch of CO2 for their pain control. That ought to work. Then, I'm gonna have to correct the hypercapnic acidosis that occurs and hope I haven't killed off brain cells, renal cells, or cardiac muscle. But, hey....Formica says it works, so....

[MDT]

^^^^^
this

cheers shaun


^^^^^^^^^ x1000000

:)

[formica]

perhaps you should just read the scientific paper I posted up in my last post.

not only is it very clear not only that CO2 is an analgesic, when used at the right dose, but they have also worked out the mechanism for the first time.

[formica]

What do you know? How dare you question the medical knowledge of a producer?

perhaps you should read it aswell. lots of big in it words tho, dont hurt yourself.

[MDT]

I read the paper... I see zero clinical application to the use of CO2 on neonatal rat neural tissue in a practical application. In terms of the strict definition of "analgesia and anesthetic", I'll concede your point. However, I would venture that there will be a total of zero people who "anesthetize" properly w CO2 before they whack their rats for feeding. Not for lack of empathy, but for lack of appropriate monitoring equipment (not readily accessible or cost effective for the average person).....Just do what Lankyrob recommended. Easier, cheaper, faster and much more reliable.