calling all beardie people…

[Starbuck]

I just joined a group on FB for sharing photos of reptiles because there were some cool species you don't see all that often, but most of the pictures are of dragon morphs. Some of the people occasionally ask for advice etc, which i never respond to because i don't keep bearded dragons….. BUT REALLY, is it just FB or are these people insane?? Some of their advice makes no sense, and i was hoping to get some clarification from some of you guys who keep bearded dragons.

They actively recommend repticarpet etc. Is ingestion/impaction really that big of an issue with dragons?? And why? We tell people all the time with snakes that if the snake is kept properly impaction is not really a concern, and is actua;;y a symptom of poor husbandry.

They also refuse to keep bearded dragons with any kind of standing water, and instead bath them once a week etc… Why not just a very small water dish? Is humidity actually that much of a concern? Many of them comment all the time that 'oh spike just loves to drink during his bathes!'… so wouldn't this indicate that their dragon is dehydrated? Maybe they get impactions because people don't offer water, so the animal is dehydrated and gut motility suffers?

Lastly, some of them are anal about their feeding schedules; twice a day, PRECISELY at XXoclock. EXACTLY 8 crickets, and ONE chopped lettuce leaf! Is this really that critical? not even the feeding schedule, but feeding every day?

I realize not all bearded dragon owners are like this, and maybe its just a misrepresentative sample on this FB group, but honestly i feed my leopard gecko a few crickets 2x a week. Im going to feed her up well, but I'm not going to worry about her when i go away for a week over christmas… Maybe some of ya'll can shed some light on how you keep your bearded dragons, or point me towards a modern resource for the non-insane? thanks. This has been driving me nuts lately, and I'm pretty close to leaving the FB page because of all the crazies.

[MizCandice]

I have 3 beardies and while I am not the most experienced Ill offer you a bit of what I know... I dont feel impaction is a huge issue when the animals are kept properly hydrated, though it is NOT recommended you use calci-sand on young dragons. Mine do have standing water dishes though more often then not they just run through them rather then drink from them... I cant tell you why this is, just that it is.. My older 2 dragons (2-3yo rescues) are not on any rigid schedule.. They ate insects a bit more frequently when they first arrived to try to put a bit more weight on them but they slowly displayed less appetite so I cut back on frequency to 3 times a week or so ( varied insects but primarily dusted gut loaded crickets) The baby however does require more calories to support the rapid growth hatch lings and juveniles go through in their first year. He also is far more reluctant to eat his daily diet of veggies so gets a bath more often to ensure he gets more moisture( the bulk of beardies hydration is obtained through the fruit/veggies they eat). I do not have a specific time of day I do things but there is a bit of a schedule that developed naturally... you do x when you get up.. after work you do y.. days off you do z. I also do not own a stitch of repti-carpet so I can not answer as to what makes them think its ok other then perhaps they find it easier to maintain with daily switch and washes then to sift sand/ change paper toweling ( shrugs).

Hopefully more dragon owners will chime in with their experiences, but hope my still developing knowledge helped at least a lil.... ( though I do agree their are some odd people that crawl outta the wood works on FB )

[Valvaren]

Most owners don't keep standing water, I don't, haven't had a problem in 4 years. My dragon only goes in the bath so it makes it easier to just bath her and let her poop. I watch her urates incase I notice any discoloration but i haven't had a problem. Thil eats when she wants though even after four years of trying I cannot get her to eat veggies, and before anyone jumps on me i've tried every single trick or tip offered to me she just doesn't want them :S.

i keep mine on tile and I know lots of other keepers who recommend tile and similar (never repticarpet) When I first built Thil's enclosure I had a sand pit in there, never used it, if I put her in she'd crawl out so we removed it.

Honestly the only thing weird about her is after 4 years i've never gone through an egg cycle or anything remotely like it with her which was always my biggest fear. I'm prepared if she ever shows signs but i've never seen any. And yes i'm positive she is female unless she is male with absolutely no pores or bulges.


I gave up on dealing with the bearded dragon community a long time ago, the forums turned to obituaries, everyday hundreds of help me posts or "my dragon died of old age at 4, she had a good long life" got sick and tired of it.

[smy_749]

The bearded dragon facebook people are whack jobs that shouldn't be allowed to keep reptiles. That is all.

[jarich]

Sounds mostly like a lot of people who have been told things they dont really understand, but just repeat them as gospel. Youre right, impaction is really only an issue in dehydrated or underhoused individuals. Its not just moisture, but also muscle movement, that helps move material through the gut. I, and a growing number of others, keep them on deep bioactive soil. Its actually the enclosure that I breed my isopods in for my other enclosures (they love it in there)

The standing water thing is one I find particularly silly too. Dragons live in a very large and varied environment and are quite adaptable. Sometimes its upwards of 60% rH and sometimes its as low as 20% rh. Saying that the humidity, by necessity, must be kept low is just not true. Nor is the common statement that they dont recognize standing water. I would say they are very easy to keep because they have no real humidity requirement, which is rare with reptiles.

It seems lately that there is a weird push to power feed these animals. I dont understand it as they are ambush predators that dont grow particularly quickly. They have very low metabolic requirements, even for a reptile. Of course they do require more food as babies, since this is their quickest growth time, but its hardly a need to regiment timed feeding twice a day. Twice a day is fine for babies, but its not like they will starve on once a day sometimes or even not any at all in a day sometimes. Keeping veg in the enclosure at all times gives them the option anyway. I feed mine live food once or twice a week and then offer fresh veg every morning. There are enough crickets and big headed beetles living in the enclosure though, which it can also pick off from time to time if it wants to. (Im sure your FB group would be absolutely horrified to hear I keep crickets in there permanently!)

[Starbuck]

Sounds mostly like a lot of people who have been told things they don't really understand, but just repeat them as gospel.

There are enough crickets and big headed beetles living in the enclosure though, which it can also pick off from time to time if it wants to. (Im sure your FB group would be absolutely horrified to hear I keep crickets in there permanently!)

Ive had fellow vet students about die when they see me dump a dozen crix into my leo tank… they go off and hide and she gets to hunt them for a few days. They munch on other stuff and leave her alone, she like to ambush them near the water dish :P I have been thinking about getting a bearded dragon eventually (not in the next year or so), but was shocked at some of the stuff i am reading. I would like to have a more natural enclosure, and i understand why large scale breeders don't do this but was getting weirded out by the Facebook people.

@Smy, i think you hit the nail on the head….

[red ink]

I stop going to any OS reptile site dedicated to bearded dragons years ago... for some reason people over there kept telling an aussie that his country was tiled.

[jarich]

I stop going to any OS reptile site dedicated to bearded dragons years ago... for some reason people over there kept telling an aussie that his country was tiled.

Hahaha, you're doing it wrong!!!

I get told the same things all the time when i tell them I have a deep soil substrate and around 50% humidity.

[smy_749]

I stop going to any OS reptile site dedicated to bearded dragons years ago... for some reason people over there kept telling an aussie that his country was tiled.

Not all of it mate, Northern territory is repticarpet

[MizCandice]

@ Jarich
" I, and a growing number of others, keep them on deep bioactive soil. Its actually the enclosure that I breed my isopods in for my other enclosures (they love it in there)"
> Please share more about the type of soil (depth type etc) Id be interested in trying it to see how my beardies like it. :)

[Valvaren]

When we moved were considering trying to move everyone over to a bioactive type enclosure, I would really like to see setups like this for bearded dragons. I plan on redoing Thil's enclosure completely and would like to be able to offer this for her as well if it can be done well

[Starbuck]

It is interesting to see some of you guys commenting about how you keep your dragons; but i was wondering if you have any info on longevity as well? It seems 9-12 is about 'old age' for a dragon (correct me if i am wrong), and clearly SOME of them make it to this age on tile, or newspaper, etc… so how do we know that the bioactive substrate etc is working for them?
Im not doubting anyone, just trying to establish some facts.

[Valvaren]

Very true, like I said I don't keep standing water and my dragon is on tiles, she eats like a horse and i've never had any health issues with her, at four she looks a hell of a lot better then a good chunk of dragons I see people posting on groups and stuff.

You do raise a very good point though Starbuck

[lisas]

Sounds mostly like a lot of people who have been told things they dont really understand, but just repeat them as gospel. Youre right, impaction is really only an issue in dehydrated or underhoused individuals. Its not just moisture, but also muscle movement, that helps move material through the gut. I, and a growing number of others, keep them on deep bioactive soil. Its actually the enclosure that I breed my isopods in for my other enclosures (they love it in there)

The standing water thing is one I find particularly silly too. Dragons live in a very large and varied environment and are quite adaptable. Sometimes its upwards of 60% rH and sometimes its as low as 20% rh. Saying that the humidity, by necessity, must be kept low is just not true. Nor is the common statement that they dont recognize standing water. I would say they are very easy to keep because they have no real humidity requirement, which is rare with reptiles.

It seems lately that there is a weird push to power feed these animals. I dont understand it as they are ambush predators that dont grow particularly quickly. They have very low metabolic requirements, even for a reptile. Of course they do require more food as babies, since this is their quickest growth time, but its hardly a need to regiment timed feeding twice a day. Twice a day is fine for babies, but its not like they will starve on once a day sometimes or even not any at all in a day sometimes. Keeping veg in the enclosure at all times gives them the option anyway. I feed mine live food once or twice a week and then offer fresh veg every morning. There are enough crickets and big headed beetles living in the enclosure though, which it can also pick off from time to time if it wants to. (Im sure your FB group would be absolutely horrified to hear I keep crickets in there permanently!)

^^^^^Only difference is that I don't feed in the enclosure (not that there's anything wrong with it)

[murrindindi]

I stop going to any OS reptile site dedicated to bearded dragons years ago... for some reason people over there kept telling an aussie that his country was tiled.

Hi, I`m from Melbourne and I can assure you and everyone else the whole state of Victoria IS tiled, I used to be in a team of two cleaning them once a month to prevent the population getting impacted.... :crazy2:

[murrindindi]

Very true, like I said I don't keep standing water and my dragon is on tiles, she eats like a horse and i've never had any health issues with her, at four she looks a hell of a lot better then a good chunk of dragons I see people posting on groups and stuff.

You do raise a very good point though Starbuck

Hi, I take it you think there`s no standing water in the areas these animals live in, and if there were it would cause them to develop a RI being as the humidity level would rise? :)
I recommend everyone ALWAYS provides a container of clean, fresh water in the enclosure whether the dragon uses it or not.

[Valvaren]

Don't have to be a smart ***. Its worked for me for four years and as stated she gets bathed regularly for bowl movements, I watch her urates and have never had a hydration or humidity problem. I'll continue with what is working for Thil.

[murrindindi]

Don't have to be a smart ***. Its worked for me for four years and as stated she gets bathed regularly for bowl movements, I watch her urates and have never had a hydration or humidity problem. I'll continue with what is working for Thil.

Hi again, I wasn`t being a smart ****, I was being flippant in the first part and seriously recommending that there should ALWAYS be fresh water available in the second.
May I ask (seriously) what range of humidity you offer the animal and why that specific range? Thanks!

[red ink]

Not all of it mate, Northern territory is repticarpet

Last I heard Alice Springs to Whyalla was paper towel...

[Skits]

I'll reply to this because I want to give in my opinion. :) Basically, yes impaction is a problem with beardies. They live in a desert with impacted sand that can't be digested. It's not that big a problem if kept with proper temps and all but I don't risk it because of bad experience. I am completely open to the idea of bioactive substrates or something of the sorts but I prefer mine being on tiles.

Humidity is a problem because they live in such hot areas. I don't keep a water dish in his tank but I am thinking of putting one back as I don't like not having one in his tank. I know they get more hydration from what gets to their skin than drinking, though.

Feeding schedules like that are way too much! Mine gets fed during the day, or every two days, whenever I feel like it. He doesn't care. If someone arranges such a schedule, though, their beardie can quickly adapt and will act super hungry enough for someone to think that it's a problem for them to not be fed on certain times.

Basically, this is what I just wrong on another thread in terms of care:
"They're awesome lizards. A lot of personality in them! They need about a 40 gallon as adults, the more the better. A heat lamp with a basking spot on 100ish. They NEED UVB! They are lizards that get MBD pretty quickly. Equip the tank with a reptisun 10.0 (or 100). They eat A LOT of crickets from baby to age 1. Basically most their diet should be crickets, and a lot of them too. They eat a lot. Greens that can be introduced to them are kale, dandelion greens, parsnip, parsley, acorn squash, green lettuce (not iceberg as it contains mostly water and gives them the runs!), etc.

Do not give them sand, as they are prone to impaction. In the wild, they live in deserts but with compressed/impacted sand that can't be digested. Proper husbandry may or may not help avoid impaction, but why risk it. Mine has tiles and does great, you can also use carpet that doesn't have the small loops like reptile carpet so their finger doesn't get stuck, but tile is easier to clean and looks nice. Not sure if I missed something, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask!"

[Skits]

Also, I've seen many posts about beardies getting eaten alive by crickets. I can link some if anyone is interested, or just google them. Honestly, I dump crickets in my tank, but I know it's because my boy eats them. You should watch him eye those crickets down and do acrobatics to get to them. :yes:

[smy_749]

I'll reply to this because I want to give in my opinion. :) Basically, yes impaction is a problem with beardies. They live in a desert with impacted sand that can't be digested. It's not that big a problem if kept with proper temps and all but I don't risk it because of bad experience. I am completely open to the idea of bioactive substrates or something of the sorts but I prefer mine being on tiles.

Humidity is a problem because they live in such hot areas. I don't keep a water dish in his tank but I am thinking of putting one back as I don't like not having one in his tank. I know they get more hydration from what gets to their skin than drinking, though.

Feeding schedules like that are way too much! Mine gets fed during the day, or every two days, whenever I feel like it. He doesn't care. If someone arranges such a schedule, though, their beardie can quickly adapt and will act super hungry enough for someone to think that it's a problem for them to not be fed on certain times.

Basically, this is what I just wrong on another thread in terms of care:
"They're awesome lizards. A lot of personality in them! They need about a 40 gallon as adults, the more the better. A heat lamp with a basking spot on 100ish. They NEED UVB! They are lizards that get MBD pretty quickly. Equip the tank with a reptisun 10.0 (or 100). They eat A LOT of crickets from baby to age 1. Basically most their diet should be crickets, and a lot of them too. They eat a lot. Greens that can be introduced to them are kale, dandelion greens, parsnip, parsley, acorn squash, green lettuce (not iceberg as it contains mostly water and gives them the runs!), etc.

Do not give them sand, as they are prone to impaction. In the wild, they live in deserts but with compressed/impacted sand that can't be digested. Proper husbandry may or may not help avoid impaction, but why risk it. Mine has tiles and does great, you can also use carpet that doesn't have the small loops like reptile carpet so their finger doesn't get stuck, but tile is easier to clean and looks nice. Not sure if I missed something, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask!"

Everything bolded doesn't make any sense. I'm assuming you meant compacted sand, not impacted sand, even though its still not true.

[Skits]

Everything bolded doesn't make any sense. I'm assuming you meant compacted sand, not impacted sand, even though its still not true.

Oops, yes compacted. Not sure how I made the mistake more than once!

I should probably pay more attention as I type. Kept erasing sentences and not finishing them properly. I mean humidity isn't needed because they live in Australia in hot places with not much water around.

And as for the their beardie can quickly adapt and will act super hungry enough for someone to think that it's a problem for them to not be fed on certain times., I meant that the beardie can get used to the schedule that the owners created, and when it comes to that time, they'll act hungry and dance around..making the owner believe they need a schedule and are starving.

Also here are pictures, note the compacted, unloose sand.
http://media.tumblr.com/4e59491d071c719256502d1f272841cb/tumblr_inline_muw43mLGig1re90ys.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_W90V87w3sr8/TSdOuFvk8xI/AAAAAAAAAmo/Fk9CRiT2kMc/s1600/Bearded+Dragon1.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/moloch05/Queensland%20Nov%202012/Windorah/Pogona-vitticeps2.jpg

[Starbuck]

So i recently attended a veterinary conference here in Florida, and one of the speakers was the chief herp vet at one of the vet colleges/zoos there (sorry i don't remember his exact appointment), speaking to the 'australian perspective' to owning/caring for a bearded dragon.
most of what he talked about was relating to diet, and i guess one of the major health issues with aussie dragons is periodontal disease (complicated with old age). He also said old age for an aussie dragon was about 15 yrs. The zoo he worked at kept the majority of their dragons outside (similar to how someone in florida might keep an iguana), and REALLY REALLY stressed the importance of UV/natural sunlight and light cycling.
As for the diet he said most of the periodontal disease (which is virtually irreversible once it has started) is a result of too many soft fruits and vegetables, and 'potato chip' feeder insects such as crickets.
Ideally, he said he catches native insects using a light trap at night (mostly moths and katydids, etc), and the feeding video we watched, the bearded dragons were DEFINITELY acting more like a monitor than the americn bear dies we see. Vegetation was primarily native australian flowers and buds, and he said the bearded dragons there will preferentially pick the flowers and buds off of whole provided feeder plants.

Some of the vets in attendance asked about the mythological 'transition' between insectivore to herbivore with age, the speaker basically said it was not real, and it is hard to judge because the some dragons will just preferentially chow down on potato chip crickets (because who wouldnt> heh hehhehehehe).

I asked him about the humidity/temperature issues, and the tendency in america to keep them super dry, and he did not really have an answer since his facility keeps the majority of his dragons outside.... Though i would imagine that the animals can burrow into the moist earth, or can ingest some amount of dew or something in the morning, coupled with native plants. HE ALSO SAID BRUMATION WAS A THING that happened and that they did.


He shared some diagrams for light traps to catch insects for dragons, but it is important to remember to collect away from areas where pesticides may have been used, and LIGHTENING BUGS ARE TOXIC AND CAN KILL A BEARDED DRAGON. Large moths, some beetles, katydids, and grasshoppers should all be ok, and the tough cuticle of these wild insects really helped to combat periodontal disease.

He made no mention of impaction in most of his australian clients' dragons, the main health issues he mentioned were MBD due to improper sunlight and periodontal disease due to improper diet.

just what was shared with me from one australian vet.

[murrindindi]

I'll reply to this because I want to give in my opinion. :) Basically, yes impaction is a problem with beardies. They live in a desert with impacted sand that can't be digested. It's not that big a problem if kept with proper temps and all but I don't risk it because of bad experience. I am completely open to the idea of bioactive substrates or something of the sorts but I prefer mine being on tiles.

Humidity is a problem because they live in such hot areas. I don't keep a water dish in his tank but I am thinking of putting one back as I don't like not having one in his tank. I know they get more hydration from what gets to their skin than drinking, though.

Feeding schedules like that are way too much! Mine gets fed during the day, or every two days, whenever I feel like it. He doesn't care. If someone arranges such a schedule, though, their beardie can quickly adapt and will act super hungry enough for someone to think that it's a problem for them to not be fed on certain times.

Basically, this is what I just wrong on another thread in terms of care:
"They're awesome lizards. A lot of personality in them! They need about a 40 gallon as adults, the more the better. A heat lamp with a basking spot on 100ish. They NEED UVB! They are lizards that get MBD pretty quickly. Equip the tank with a reptisun 10.0 (or 100). They eat A LOT of crickets from baby to age 1. Basically most their diet should be crickets, and a lot of them too. They eat a lot. Greens that can be introduced to them are kale, dandelion greens, parsnip, parsley, acorn squash, green lettuce (not iceberg as it contains mostly water and gives them the runs!), etc.

Do not give them sand, as they are prone to impaction. In the wild, they live in deserts but with compressed/impacted sand that can't be digested. Proper husbandry may or may not help avoid impaction, but why risk it. Mine has tiles and does great, you can also use carpet that doesn't have the small loops like reptile carpet so their finger doesn't get stuck, but tile is easier to clean and looks nice. Not sure if I missed something, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask!"

Hi, I have a few questions, hopefully you`ll answer them for me!
I`d like to ask where you`ve ever seen bearded dragons in the wild to know what they eat, what the humidity range is, and how compacted the sand they sometimes live on in some areas is?
They do NOT absorb moisture through their skin (or cloaca).
The last question for now is; how long have you been keeping these animals in captivity and where does your information come from?
Please understand I`m NOT being sarcastic, just responding to your post! :)
In my personal experience (spent much of my life in Australia having been born there), they actually live on loose sand dunes in some areas, and at times the humidity can be over 50%.
While crickets are certainly acceptable as part of the diet there are many other inverts and some vertebrate animals that can be offered.

[pdomensis]

Somewhat off topic and if there is already a thread you can point me there; is there really a difference between the long tubular UV lights compared to the coiled tubes that fit in standard sockets? Thanks!

[Skits]

Hi, I have a few questions, hopefully you`ll answer them for me!
I`d like to ask where you`ve ever seen bearded dragons in the wild to know what they eat, what the humidity range is, and how compacted the sand they sometimes live on in some areas is?
They do NOT absorb moisture through their skin (or cloaca).
The last question for now is; how long have you been keeping these animals in captivity and where does your information come from?
Please understand I`m NOT being sarcastic, just responding to your post! :)
In my personal experience (spent much of my life in Australia having been born there), they actually live on loose sand dunes in some areas, and at times the humidity can be over 50%.
While crickets are certainly acceptable as part of the diet there are many other inverts and some vertebrate animals that can be offered.

I haven't seen any in real life, I haven't had one for long but I tried researching as much as I could on them. From what I know, they live in the rockier parts of Australia with compacted sand. I know they eat locusts, earthworms, roaches..basically whatever they find. Maybe small rodents as well (mine loves pinkies as a snack). Of course we can offer more than crickets as well but it's common for people to have crickets. I don't know too much about the humidity, just going from what I heard really, but I know they don't like it too humid. I don't see why taking a water dish is so much of a big deal, a bit of humidity can't kill them. They aren't uros.

Somewhat off topic and if there is already a thread you can point me there; is there really a difference between the long tubular UV lights compared to the coiled tubes that fit in standard sockets? Thanks!

I heard there is but I never looked into why. I use the tube. I had coiled, I was told to switch it. I honestly didn't care too much and never looked into why, the only reason I switched it is because I got a tube and fixture for free so why not. :p

Edit: Just found a post on another website where the coiled bulbs don't emit the UV necessary for beardies. They have shorter wave lengths.

[Skits]

...

Changed the quote to not expand the page too much, but thanks for the info! :) Was worth reading.

[pdomensis]

Thanks Skits.

[Skits]

Found out the main problem with humidity is that it causes them to get respiratory infections, thought I'd put that out there. Wasn't too sure why it was so horrible for them in the beginning, but guess it makes sense!

[Bacon]

Sorry to come to this thread a month old, but I'm so happy to find this place I could about cry. :D

I'm not part of the FB community, but waded through the tumblr one for a while. It's pretty venomous. There is a pretty awful mixture of neglect/abuse on the part of uneducated owners and shaming/abuse form folks trying to "correct" husbandry. There is a lot of circular feedback with the "introductory" level (not sure what to call em) communities and most of them seem pretty bonkers. Some of the tips are helpful to bring a neglected animal up to suitable conditions and I can respect the effort, but the vitriol against change or differing opinions is scary. The firm and vocal rejection of science in favor of common (non)sense is just plain weird. (One of the "resources" about the dangers of using red/IR night-lights was for a industrial safety glasses manufacturer???). Sorry if I sound a little catty, it's started to get under my skin.

I did the math once on how much humidity my water dish would add to the cage. It came out to something like 10% up, assuming it instantly vaporized and the cage had no vents. Since it takes more days to dry out than the water stays fresh I'm not worried about my little dish.

I'm looking forward to learning from folks with experience on the same planet I live on.

[murrindindi]

Hi, I`m hoping we live on the same planet, otherwise one of us is an alien (is it me)???
I have a 2 questions for you; why would adding a water dish to a Bearded dragon`s enclosure matter too much, and what do you think is a suitable range? Thanks!

[Bacon]

Hi, I`m hoping we live on the same planet, otherwise one of us is an alien (is it me)???
I have a 2 questions for you; why would adding a water dish to a Bearded dragon`s enclosure matter too much, and what do you think is a suitable range? Thanks!

It's probably me! I'm still trying to relearn (or at least vet) a lot of the nonsense I picked up around the web. :/

The scare tactic of "a water dish will raise humidity and give your dragon an RI" is pretty prevalent, to the point there are folks saying "take it out, it's dangerous". Which would matter if it were true, but I can't imagine that a set up that is dangerously humid at dragon temps would be a safe or appropriate one, or in a room I could tolerate being in.

Humidity aside, spills and cleaning/refilling is just an inconvenience on my part, but shouldn't be a reason to deny my critter the choice to use or ignore water. No, I've never seen him use or drink from it, but he's done a lot of things I've never seen him do. He shouldn't have access to water solely at my discretion and convenience.

I'm guessing range means humidity. My current understanding is around 30-50% Rh. I'll be honest that I'm still pretty iffy about that one. Too much lower seems like it would desiccate the poor thing with the conditions "advised" on care sheets (bare floor, nice and toasty, no real cool/damp shelters) universally "low" seems unrealistic considering how they range so broadly over the continent.

If I've got any of it wrong, please enlighten me. I am here to learn.

[murrindindi]

It's probably me! I'm still trying to relearn (or at least vet) a lot of the nonsense I picked up around the web. :/

The scare tactic of "a water dish will raise humidity and give your dragon an RI" is pretty prevalent, to the point there are folks saying "take it out, it's dangerous". Which would matter if it were true, but I can't imagine that a set up that is dangerously humid at dragon temps would be a safe or appropriate one, or in a room I could tolerate being in.

Humidity aside, spills and cleaning/refilling is just an inconvenience on my part, but shouldn't be a reason to deny my critter the choice to use or ignore water. No, I've never seen him use or drink from it, but he's done a lot of things I've never seen him do. He shouldn't have access to water solely at my discretion and convenience.

I'm guessing range means humidity. My current understanding is around 30-50% Rh. I'll be honest that I'm still pretty iffy about that one. Too much lower seems like it would desiccate the poor thing with the conditions "advised" on care sheets (bare floor, nice and toasty, no real cool/damp shelters) universally "low" seems unrealistic considering how they range so broadly over the continent.

If I've got any of it wrong, please enlighten me. I am here to learn.

Hi again, considering you came to learn more you make more sense than most "experienced" keepers I meet around these websites.
A humidity range of between approx. 30 to 50% is perfectly fine, the idea they live in places where it hardly ever gets much above zero is complete nonsense (I speak from personal experience of visiting some of their wild locations on very many occasions).
I`ve never understood why most keepers regularly spray their dragons and the enclosure (is the humidity too low)??? :)
Another myth is that they can absorb water through the cloaca to keep themselves hydrated (NOT true, not a shred of evidence).
They DO recognise standing water, though they may not need to drink very often, but clean, fresh water MUST be available at all times.
They DO live on sand in some parts of their wild range, and not always well compacted either, sometimes it`s loose "dune" type sand.

[Bacon]

Hi again, considering you came to learn more you make more sense than most "experienced" keepers I meet around these websites.
A humidity range of between approx. 30 to 50% is perfectly fine, the idea they live in places where it hardly ever gets much above zero is complete nonsense (I speak from personal experience of visiting some of their wild locations on very many occasions).
I`ve never understood why most keepers regularly spray their dragons and the enclosure (is the humidity too low)??? :)
Another myth is that they can absorb water through the cloaca to keep themselves hydrated (NOT true, not a shred of evidence).
They DO recognise standing water, though they may not need to drink very often, but clean, fresh water MUST be available at all times.
They DO live on sand in some parts of their wild range, and not always well compacted either, sometimes it`s loose "dune" type sand.

Makes all those lizard baths feel quite silly. :/
It's been so surprising to really see how much gets believed just because it gets said more. I enjoy seeing which side has more evidence and what sort it ends up being, it's quite enlightening when considered objectively. I could count the times on my hand I've heard someone even suggest they don't absorb water thru the vet. Where as the other is so prevalent its become like saying the sky is blue.
The ironic part is so many of the folks saying many of those things rage against "pet-store" advice and how people should never trust it. Makes it all quite a challenge to sort out, so here I am. Haha.

[Skits]

I was one of those morons that didn't give their beardie water. One day I just looked at my girl and wondered why the hell not and she's had one since. Not having water in there lasted about 2 weeks. Only thing I've noticed is I don't think she ever drinks? I keep making myself believe she does and then realize it's probably evaporating.

[Pareeeee]

My old beardie always had a water dish. She did recognize what it was and would use it (although rarely). She drank a lot in the bath.

They like a substrate they can dig in. Brings out more natural behaviours.

Regarding the bioactive enclosure - are you planning on putting plants in it? If so, your beardie will most certainly eat them all. Mine even would attempt eating her plastic plants from time to time, there were always tooth marks in them.

[Mikey T]

this is just my experience, 1. I currently have all my beardies in "clean enclosures" altho i have been slowly changing my husbandry to more monitor type. come spring i will be using all natural substrates. i keep water dishes in all my enclosure and a very hot basking spot. my beardies are doing great. I found with the really hot basking spots their feed response and activity is drastically increased. all my basking spots are right around 120* even for my juvies ( altho i keep bubblers in their water dish just to remind them that they are there.
I have found i don't notice most of mine using the water unless its as i am pouring water in the bowls. except for one adult female. she will jump in the bowl and completely sumerge herself and try to swim down ... i feel like i could put a massive water feature in with her and she'd love it.
as for worrying about RI or Impaction. as was said above somewhere, if the animals have enough room to be active and they can get their temps high enough, neither RI or Impaction should be a problem. They burrow in the wild, why deprive them of that in captivity?

[Bacon]

this is just my experience, 1. I currently have all my beardies in "clean enclosures" altho i have been slowly changing my husbandry to more monitor type. come spring i will be using all natural substrates. i keep water dishes in all my enclosure and a very hot basking spot. my beardies are doing great. I found with the really hot basking spots their feed response and activity is drastically increased. all my basking spots are right around 120* even for my juvies ( altho i keep bubblers in their water dish just to remind them that they are there.
I have found i don't notice most of mine using the water unless its as i am pouring water in the bowls. except for one adult female. she will jump in the bowl and completely sumerge herself and try to swim down ... i feel like i could put a massive water feature in with her and she'd love it.
as for worrying about RI or Impaction. as was said above somewhere, if the animals have enough room to be active and they can get their temps high enough, neither RI or Impaction should be a problem. They burrow in the wild, why deprive them of that in captivity?

How do you have your bubblers set up? Is it like a aquarium air pump or mini fountain pump? I experimented with something like that but the pump motor was much too loud to put in the cage. I do have a spare air pump though.

[Mikey T]

I am using am aquarium air pump. It supplies the 2 juvi ' s water dishes.
I am touting with the idea of water falls in the other enclosures tho. Just not sure I wanna deal with the maintenance

[LIZARDS LOVE]

:sad:hello I'm new an I have a 4 year old breaded dragon his names Godzilla when do I start feed him pinky

[jarich]

You dont. There is no need to feed a bearded dragon pinkies ever. They have low metabolisms even for a reptile as they are an ambush predator adapted to camouflage protection from other predators (in other words, they are adapted to a "dont move if they dont have to" style of sitting around) Feeding them red meat is silly and unnecessary.

[Mikey T]

yet another thing i disagree with, while they can do completely fine without. i still give all mine (that are large enough) a pinky here and there. especially breeding females both pre and post lay. it will help them gain weight and calcium. have had absolutely zero issues.
As long as their heat and humidity are correct of course (sound familiar Jarich?) alot of people are starting to treat their beardies like monitors with outstanding results.
all my basking temps are right around 120ish, and one of my juvie females is always stretching toward the lamp to get warmer, and they all eat like maniacs.
now all this is not to say go ahead and feed your beardie pinkies everyday (really... don't) but every now and then is fine. do you really think they would pass up a chance in the wild if they came across a fresh mouse/rat nest with mom and dad away?

[jarich]

Except that a pinkie provides them with no more calcium. Pinkies have no bones really, only cartilage. So all you're providing then with is fat they aren't adapted to processing. While it will not do harm to them on occasion, it won't do them any good either

[Pareeeee]

You can feed them to adult beardies as treats now and then, but you should dust them with calcium + vit powder, just like you would crickets.

[Mikey T]

i don't even feed mine crickets anymore, (except if i have a few extra lying around) roaches, supers, silks, the odd pinkie, and lots of veggies. I HATE crickets with a burning passion. but now i am gonna have to start buying 1/4" when my babies start hatching. and this makes me sad lol.

[Starbuck]

You can feed them to adult beardies as treats now and then, but you should dust them with calcium + vit powder, just like you would crickets.


(Paree I'm not directly trying to call you out or anything, just responding to the last few comments)
My question is what is the point? Are beardies in Oz getting pinkies? Are their crickets getting dusted with every feeding? I realize that some of the constraints of captivity such as limited feeder insect variety necessitate some calcium dusting, and a heavy reliance on crickets, but the pinkie mouse thing seems over the top. Reminds me of youtube videos of people feeding scorpions (tail removed) to beardies or tiny mice to leos (Adult, Male leopard geckos and bearded dragons!!) Just because they can.

proper breeding conditioning shouldn't rely on pinkie mice or other unnatural foods, it seems like it should be obtainable with a varied diet of healthy gut loaded insects.

The idea of a treat also doesn't make sense to me. I give my dog treats so she has a motivation to do the things i am asking her to do, and because we have a mutual social bond. I give my leopard gecko wax worms etc not as a treat, but as part of her regular varied diet. I guess I'm just not understanding the motivation behind giving treats to a reptile. If you want them to be happy and to feel good, leave them alone for a day? give them proper basking temps, and enriching food to chase around, or novel vegetation.

[Mikey T]

All valid points. But in response to your question about are they getting pinks in the wild. ... I'd be willing to bet that if an adult beardie came across a nest of pinks, he'd look at it as a buffet.

[murrindindi]

(Paree I'm not directly trying to call you out or anything, just responding to the last few comments)
My question is what is the point? Are beardies in Oz getting pinkies? Are their crickets getting dusted with every feeding? I realize that some of the constraints of captivity such as limited feeder insect variety necessitate some calcium dusting, and a heavy reliance on crickets, but the pinkie mouse thing seems over the top. Reminds me of youtube videos of people feeding scorpions (tail removed) to beardies or tiny mice to leos (Adult, Male leopard geckos and bearded dragons!!) Just because they can.

proper breeding conditioning shouldn't rely on pinkie mice or other unnatural foods, it seems like it should be obtainable with a varied diet of healthy gut loaded insects.

The idea of a treat also doesn't make sense to me. I give my dog treats so she has a motivation to do the things i am asking her to do, and because we have a mutual social bond. I give my leopard gecko wax worms etc not as a treat, but as part of her regular varied diet. I guess I'm just not understanding the motivation behind giving treats to a reptile. If you want them to be happy and to feel good, leave them alone for a day? give them proper basking temps, and enriching food to chase around, or novel vegetation.

Hi, during my many, many trips into the bush I`ve personally observed Bearded dragons taking skinks (species unknown) on occasion, to describe pinky mice as an "unnatural" food is rather strange, being as they are vertebrate prey (albeit at that age not much skeletal tissue), they ARE natural in that sense.
If I were to offer rodents/other vertebrates now and again I would stick to either fuzzies or older.
None of the members so far passing comments in this respect have ever been to Australia or seen a Bearded dragon to know what they eat in the wild, including whether on occasion they might come across a nest of rodents and take what they can get (please correct me if I`m wrong about having first hand experience in the wild).
Being a "sit and wait" predator does NOT mean they cannot or would not openly pursue prey, they can and do!
The idea that the adults in the wild eat 80% greens and 20% inverts is quite ridiculous, too!?

[murrindindi]

All valid points. But in response to your question about are they getting pinks in the wild. ... I'd be willing to bet that if an adult beardie came across a nest of pinks, he'd look at it as a buffet.

You would be quite right! ;)

[Mikey T]

Actually I have no first hand experience with wild beardies as I have never been to Australia (tip of my bucket list tho) But I am super glad I was right in my assumptions. Another question I would like classification on is. .... is it true that the northern half of Australia is ruled and the southern half covered in paper towel? LOL

[Mikey T]

On a more serious note, What basking temps/ humidity gradients are there in their home range? And do you agree with keeping them as one would keep a monitor?

[murrindindi]

Actually I have no first hand experience with wild beardies as I have never been to Australia (tip of my bucket list tho) But I am super glad I was right in my assumptions. Another question I would like classification on is. .... is it true that the northern half of Australia is ruled and the southern half covered in paper towel? LOL

Now you`re being silly, of course it isn`t covered in paper towels???? :wacky:
For your information, mostly it`s reptile carpet with a few small areas covered in ceramic tiling with grout in the joints to stop them getting their claws stuck (or debri collecting in there), and signs reminding them of the percentages of veg to protein ratios, and not to accidently drown in the liquid they do not recognise unless it`s moving.

[Mikey T]

I literally almost made my boss crash his truck I laughed so loud lol

[murrindindi]

On a more serious note, What basking temps/ humidity gradients are there in their home range? And do you agree with keeping them as one would keep a monitor?

The same basking surface temps that are in place for all the animals living in that specific area at that specific time. Whether they choose to use surface temps up around 60 to 70c is another matter? I would suspect not, they are mainly active in the morning and afternoon on the hotter days (as many reptiles are).
Personally, I recommend around 45 to 50c (110 to 120f), obviously providing there are cooler areas to retreat to.
As far as housing them like Varanids in the sense you provide a substrate and use relatively high basking surface temps, I think that is probably the healthier option in captivity.
Not to mention the usual "humidity must be kept under 30%, or they develop IR`s"? It can get over 60% humidity at times in some parts in the wild. I would recommend a level between approx. 30 to 50% in captivity.

[murrindindi]

I literally almost made my boss crash his truck I laughed so loud lol

Don`t crash the truck, you`ll have to walk the rest of the way (unless you`re not going far of course, then it won`t matter so much)...

[Mikey T]

Awesome. Thanx fOr the help

[jarich]

Hi, during my many, many trips into the bush I`ve personally observed Bearded dragons taking skinks (species unknown) on occasion, to describe pinky mice as an "unnatural" food is rather strange, being as they are vertebrate prey (albeit at that age not much skeletal tissue), they ARE natural in that sense.
If I were to offer rodents/other vertebrates now and again I would stick to either fuzzies or older.
None of the members so far passing comments in this respect have ever been to Australia or seen a Bearded dragon to know what they eat in the wild, including whether on occasion they might come across a nest of rodents and take what they can get (please correct me if I`m wrong about having first hand experience in the wild).
Being a "sit and wait" predator does NOT mean they cannot or would not openly pursue prey, they can and do!
The idea that the adults in the wild eat 80% greens and 20% inverts is quite ridiculous, too!?

Actually, I'd be happy to correct you. Yes I have Stefan, on both counts. I lived in Queensland, and saw numerous dragons. Does this mean I'm now qualified To ask you if you ever saw a dragon eat a rodent then?

Please read more carefully too. I was not saying that because it is an ambush predator that it would not hunt. I said that because they have such low metabolisms, there is no reason to feed them rodent prey. There is also a vast nutritional difference between a skink and a rodent. Simply because they both have a vertebral backbone does not make it the same. Again, not saying the odd pinkie is some big issue, merely that there is no reason to ever bother. Obesity is an issue with many captive dragons, so it seems ridiculous to suggest people feed rodents to adult dragons especially.