View Full Version : sav stay in burrow all day
Hi all. My sav has been strange lately. He would come up and bask for a little and then return to his burrow for the rest of the day. It's been 3 days now that he's like that. He's male for sure due to his flower looking hemi-*****. Not sure what's wrong with him...
formica
12-14-13, 02:12 PM
has the forum censored the word *****? looool! (edit: lol yes it has! can that be changed? its an anatomical word, not a swear word lol)
my Sav has times when he's a little less active, not worried about it myself, by all reports its pretty normal...
infernalis
12-14-13, 03:25 PM
hemipene
hemiclitoris
infernalis
12-14-13, 03:28 PM
well that test worked.
Anyways, use the scientific names and you are ok.
murrindindi
12-14-13, 03:31 PM
Hi, if conditions above ground support activity it`s not "normal" for them to stay underground for several days at a time in captivity, has anything at all changed recently?
infernalis
12-14-13, 03:33 PM
It's normal.
There have been a lot of recent reports of this behavioral difference.
Most likely the atmospheric differences in the changing season.
We can control temperatures, humidity and light cycles in enclosures, but barometric pressure is in natures hands unless you have compressors and vacuum pumps hooked to your cage. :) (sorry I had to)
murrindindi
12-14-13, 03:44 PM
It's normal.
There have been a lot of recent reports of this behavioral difference.
Most likely the atmospheric differences in the changing season.
We can control temperatures, humidity and light cycles in enclosures, but barometric pressure is in natures hands unless you have compressors and vacuum pumps hooked to your cage. :) (sorry I had to)
Hi Wayne, can you link to some of that info? Thanks!
Edit: When you regularly report your monitors can stay underground for a couple of days or so, it surely cannot always be because of the barometric pressure, otherwise everyone`s would!?
smy_749
12-14-13, 03:44 PM
My storri are doing this, I attribute it to pressure changes and let them be.
murrindindi
12-14-13, 03:50 PM
My storri are doing this, I attribute it to pressure changes and let them be.
Hi, haven`t you also been making changes in the enclosure?
Apart from during acclimation I can say NONE of my Varanids kept indoors here in the U.K have ever stayed underground for extended periods (maybe there is no barometric pressure in England)? :eek: :)
Pirarucu
12-14-13, 07:18 PM
Hi Wayne, can you link to some of that info? Thanks!
Edit: When you regularly report your monitors can stay underground for a couple of days or so, it surely cannot always be because of the barometric pressure, otherwise everyone`s would!?For what it's worth, several Argus keepers on facebook were recently talking about their monitors spending a lot of time underground lately.
jk.. I haven't changed anything lately. I have however been feeding the sav less food as discussed with you a few weeks ago. Maybe I'm underfeeding him.
mdfmonitor
12-15-13, 10:55 AM
You can change the environment without realising you have!
Cooler country's will effect you monitor as well, depending on soil depth etc, you tend to have to turn up the heat in cooler country's & this alters humidity. Also deeper soil heated from above will cool down from the bottom upwards if left on a floor.
Even with carpets etc the cold fights it's way up from the bottom, this also sends the monitor into a reduced activity state.
murrindindi
12-15-13, 11:46 AM
jk.. I haven't changed anything lately. I have however been feeding the sav less food as discussed with you a few weeks ago. Maybe I'm underfeeding him.
Hi again, can you put a few pics up and give details of current conditions in the enclosure and room it`s in, also exactly what you`ve been feeding lately?
I doubt the monitor is staying underground because you`ve reduced the total amount of food, to my mind that would probably make him somewhat more active (improved body condition and relatively "hungry")?
murrindindi
12-15-13, 11:53 AM
You can change the environment without realising you have!
Cooler country's will effect you monitor as well, depending on soil depth etc, you tend to have to turn up the heat in cooler country's & this alters humidity. Also deeper soil heated from above will cool down from the bottom upwards if left on a floor.
Even with carpets etc the cold fights it's way up from the bottom, this also sends the monitor into a reduced activity state.
Hi Mark, I would have thought these details would be the likeliest explanation, too?
It`s not to suggest that barometric pressure couldn`t have an effect also, just not my first thought, more especially if it`s a long term behaviour as I thought Wayne`s monitors exhibited (or maybe I`ve misunderstood him over the last year or so) and it`s quite a rare occurrence that regularly gets mentioned?
murrindindi
12-15-13, 11:56 AM
For what it's worth, several Argus keepers on facebook were recently talking about their monitors spending a lot of time underground lately.
Hi, do you happen to have details on the conditions these animals are being kept under during this time?
mdfmonitor
12-15-13, 01:54 PM
Hi Mark, I would have thought these details would be the likeliest explanation, too?
It`s not to suggest that barometric pressure couldn`t have an effect also, just not my first thought, more especially if it`s a long term behaviour as I thought Wayne`s monitors exhibited (or maybe I`ve misunderstood him over the last year or so) and it`s quite a rare occurrence that regularly gets mentioned?
All i'll say is i thought i had it right a number of years back & i spent many hours sat watching them!! I was wrong. :)
If your good at watching changes, by the time you've cocked the temps up etc & the humidity a number of times you start to see patterns in their behaviour, you get to a point were you look at the animal & then look at the temp gauge!!
they respond to changes in temps, their poop will tell you if the basking spot flood is right with the size of prey they are eating, again your looking at the animal then at how you need to react.
Keepers like Ben/Krusty/Crocdoc etc who've seen the whole picture as in bred them many times will know just by looking if it's right or not, The other day i re-hydrated his soil box, the temp is around 75f in there so i upped his temps to balance out cold damp dirt, moved up about 2/3c.
A day or so later i noticed he'd started to back fill his dirt box sealing himself in, really muddy water tub, then i realised some prat had left his background temps still set high.
Looked down at the temp gauge & that backed up what the monitor told me, also he'd been basking at 180f & i never notice any difference in how long he sat their but his poops were well processed!!
Sorry Stefan i went off at a tangent, but back on subject i've noticed that Lenny did start slow down when the sun in the west facing skylights did not reach through skylights any more, so i'm sure they will react to outside influences such as weather & light,
But as we both no we can fool them (maybe not the word) into carrying on life in a correctly setup environment! But again that's not to say they won't have a rest once in a while, it's back to reading your animals reactions & understanding them!!
Hi, the cage is the same as last time I showed the photos. Nothing has changed except I coated the plywood with waterproof resin(Bondo Fiberglass Resin). The basking temps(140F+) with 3 x 50Watt flood lights and humidity(80+) and everything remains unchanged.
Today he came out and basked for a while(like 20 minutes) , and then moved away from the basking spot and then he just lies there. I know he's hungry since I decided not to feed him yesterday to see if he'll get hungry enough to decide it's time to go look around for food. My tegu, the hungrier he gets the more active he is and more aggressive so I thought I'd try starving the sav for 1 day to see if he'll do the same, but nope.
Today I threw a small smelt in the cage and he dashed at it and ate it right away with vigor. Seems healthy when he sees food, still fast when chasing food. Then he roamed around the cage for like 1 minute thinking there's more food but then finds nothing and back to doing nothing. He's starting to act like those youtube savs who lay around all day doing nothing.
The basement is heated to 23C all day round, the cage is sitting on a 2 inch foam mats that insulates real well.. Although the winter is here and where I live it gets to -20C... But cage temps didn't change.
I have the cages situated in the basement where no window is exposed. I know it's working well because most tegus would hibernate at this time but my tegu hasn't been affected by the seasons at all and still hunts all day long, the sav cage is right next to the tegu's and the have the exact same setup.
Since the last conversation with murrindindi I only feed like this:
4 days of the week he eats superworms who live in the cage eating buried veggies/fruits, I have to dig them out for the sav to eat, unlike the tegu he wouldn't bother digging for himself unless they are only slightly buried.
3 days of the week I only feed 1 single mouse or 3 small smelts.
He's lost weight with this new feeding but he's still not active like he used to, e.g. roaming around from 10am-4pm. Now he won't even roam, just sits there unless I open the cage, then he'll run to me expecting food.
murrindindi
12-16-13, 11:42 AM
Hi again, thanks for the details, it would still be nice to see a few photos just to see his body condition right now (not that I`m doubting it when you say he`s lost some weight).
None of us know for sure what the precise reason/s for the behaviour might be, I think it`s possible because of the reduced feeding he`s reduced activity (much as they do in the wild during the dry season), as food may be less available at that time. It`s known in the areas they were studied they don`t brumate, and there is evidence of some activity, but to what extent we don`t yet know?
Hopefully next year Dr. Daniel Bennett will complete more studies and maybe have a few more answers in this regard (fingers and toes firmly crossed)! ;)
Edit: Can you offer more variety in the form of inverts rather than just the superworms?
Hi, I didn't take one today because he was gone in the burrow after my post, but I did take one yesterday when it made ONE circle around the cage, his ONLY circle he made all day lol.
He still looks fat when he lays down and belly spread on the floor but here's his standing picture from yesterday.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3uKIKqva_LY/Uq3OUaqhM6I/AAAAAAAAWRo/ldayaG74k7U/w1089-h817-no/IMG_20131215_084406.jpg
murrindindi
12-16-13, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the pic, he`s still a little on the heavy side (it will take time to lose the excess weight), this will undoubtably effect the activity levels to some extent.
Are the mice adult, and how big in comparison to his head are they, and will you be able to offer other inverts besides superwoms?
Edit: Do you have an accurate length and weight measurement?
Hi I'll get to measure him when he comes back tomorrow for his morning bask. But I don't have a scale.
We can get crickets too but he isn't always interested and they die off to fast. There's horn worms but they cost too much. Super worms is the only thing I can afford at large quantity that will live long enough and eat just about any nutritious food I provide them (buried in soil like carrots veggies fruits etc)
Mice ate adult frozen thawed. About the size of his head or smaller slightly. Basically one gulp and he downs it.
murrindindi
12-16-13, 02:40 PM
Have you tried exercising him outside the enclosure if he`s acclimated enough to do that without being stressed (cordon off an area)?
mdfmonitor
12-16-13, 03:13 PM
Hi, the cage is the same as last time I showed the photos. Nothing has changed except I coated the plywood with waterproof resin(Bondo Fiberglass Resin). The basking temps(140F+) with 3 x 50Watt flood lights and humidity(80+) and everything remains unchanged.
Today he came out and basked for a while(like 20 minutes) , and then moved away from the basking spot and then he just lies there. I know he's hungry since I decided not to feed him yesterday to see if he'll get hungry enough to decide it's time to go look around for food. My tegu, the hungrier he gets the more active he is and more aggressive so I thought I'd try starving the sav for 1 day to see if he'll do the same, but nope.
Today I threw a small smelt in the cage and he dashed at it and ate it right away with vigor. Seems healthy when he sees food, still fast when chasing food. Then he roamed around the cage for like 1 minute thinking there's more food but then finds nothing and back to doing nothing. He's starting to act like those youtube savs who lay around all day doing nothing.
The basement is heated to 23C all day round, the cage is sitting on a 2 inch foam mats that insulates real well.. Although the winter is here and where I live it gets to -20C... But cage temps didn't change.
I have the cages situated in the basement where no window is exposed. I know it's working well because most tegus would hibernate at this time but my tegu hasn't been affected by the seasons at all and still hunts all day long, the sav cage is right next to the tegu's and the have the exact same setup.
Since the last conversation with murrindindi I only feed like this:
4 days of the week he eats superworms who live in the cage eating buried veggies/fruits, I have to dig them out for the sav to eat, unlike the tegu he wouldn't bother digging for himself unless they are only slightly buried.
3 days of the week I only feed 1 single mouse or 3 small smelts.
He's lost weight with this new feeding but he's still not active like he used to, e.g. roaming around from 10am-4pm. Now he won't even roam, just sits there unless I open the cage, then he'll run to me expecting food.
I'm same, my cage temps don't change, but what does change is the amount of appliances you have to use to maintain the temp, this burns off humidity.
The only way you'll ever guarantee a warm room temp cage floor is by having the cage raised off the floor, the cold works it's way up the cage floor & cools the substrate inside, the deeper the substrate the more this takes place(regardless of insulation on the floor).
These changes effect your monitor!! take my soil box why is it that it's sat on top of rooms that are lived in & heated to around 20c & the temps in the viv are around 82f across floor level, but in the bottom of the soil box it can be around 75f. When i had a nest soil box in there in the summertime & back ground temps were about 84f ground level, the substrate still had to be heated on a stat from below to maintain a 86f area.
mdfmonitor
12-16-13, 03:25 PM
Hi, I didn't take one today because he was gone in the burrow after my post, but I did take one yesterday when it made ONE circle around the cage, his ONLY circle he made all day lol.
He still looks fat when he lays down and belly spread on the floor but here's his standing picture from yesterday.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3uKIKqva_LY/Uq3OUaqhM6I/AAAAAAAAWRo/ldayaG74k7U/w1089-h817-no/IMG_20131215_084406.jpg
want to get rid of that belly!! up the basking spot flood 140f to 160f, feed insects/bugs/mice 4 days & 3 days off maintaining a high basking area, then every so often just throw crickets & bugs in & leave mice out.
Good basking spot flood is the key, a usable one!!
This may depend on your set-up though, if it's one level only you may have trouble achieving this, Wayne does it by having deep substrate & a good sized cage, the savs just tunnel down to their preferred temp & humidity if it gets to hot on the surface. I do it by having two levels & the basking platform been high up in the cage, this gives many different areas of temp & humidity levels to choose from.
But deep substrate & 2 levels are far better!! :)
hope this helps you! :)
Have you tried exercising him outside the enclosure if he`s acclimated enough to do that without being stressed (cordon off an area)?
I did that once when he was young but he becomes scared and runs into hiding places that are hard to get. It took me a few hours to get him out of a built in wall cupboard once, after tearing the cupboard apart.
Also my house is way too cold to do that, and our humidity in Canada is less than 20% I think.
Sorry but could you please elaborate on the diet? When I'm getting from your suggestion is
-only feed 4/7 days, and the remaining days don't feed.
- raise temp to 160F
- add a second level
thx
want to get rid of that belly!! up the basking spot flood 140f to 160f, feed insects/bugs/mice 4 days & 3 days off maintaining a high basking area, then every so often just throw crickets & bugs in & leave mice out.
Good basking spot flood is the key, a usable one!!
This may depend on your set-up though, if it's one level only you may have trouble achieving this, Wayne does it by having deep substrate & a good sized cage, the savs just tunnel down to their preferred temp & humidity if it gets to hot on the surface. I do it by having two levels & the basking platform been high up in the cage, this gives many different areas of temp & humidity levels to choose from.
But deep substrate & 2 levels are far better!! :)
hope this helps you! :)
mdfmonitor
12-17-13, 02:39 PM
Sorry but could you please elaborate on the diet? When I'm getting from your suggestion is
-only feed 4/7 days, and the remaining days don't feed.
- raise temp to 160F
- add a second level
thx
Poor digestion & big meals usually cause big bellies, also lack of activity adds to it.
Finding the right basking temp which for a bigger sav can be up to 160f is the key to aiding faster digestion, some vivs that are small may not allow you to get to 160f surface basking temp, so you may have to find a happy medium that suits your cage size & monitor ( as near 160f as poss). This is because the heat generated from the hals bulbs that are needed to create the hotter basking spot flood covering snout to vent may over heat a small viv.
Feeding big meals constantly keeps the belly expanded whilst the meal is digested, if you leave you monitor without food for 3 days the stomach will be empty/digested. Along with the good basking spot this will encourage them to look for more food during that time.
If you feed rodents only you reduce your monitors access to activity levels in hunting for insects along with digging them out or foraging under cork bark etc.
Feed insects 1st, when they've gone you can then feed rodents, i sometimes throw a large handful of insects in the viv early am before the monitor is awake. This allows him to spend a few hours hunting around before he evens thinks of getting his meat diet.
A number of keepers have upper levels in their vivs, at an early stage this may cause problems because shy monitors may not like to climb into the open, place cover of some kind of cover across the basking area that the monitor can feel safe behind.
upper levels give another area of access to exercise as in climb, as well as deep substrate, it also keeps your hotter temps kept in the upper level, this gives you a very hot upper level & a cooler middle level & finally the ground level.
So you have a bigger range of humidity & temps for the monitor to choose from, one level & shallow substrate & crap basking spots floods give you nothing but problems.
Substrate is best heated from below as well as above because the heat can't penetrate fully into the lower soil levels, this means sitting the viv on sleepers of some kind.
Monitors are intelligent & will gladly sit in the same place & wait for food day in day out, annoy them & change the feeding times & keep them in hunting mode, they also use that hot spot flood to warm up for hunting, if it's not hot enough they'll reduce they interest in chasing after insects & wait for you to give in & feed them an easy meal!
Hopefully there's something that will help you above!! :) :)
just fin a 12 hour shift last night!!
Pirarucu
12-17-13, 09:24 PM
Hi, do you happen to have details on the conditions these animals are being kept under during this time?I would have to go and find it, but all were knowledgeable and experienced keepers. The monitors all had plenty of heat and dirt, and keepers said that nothing had been changed recently.
MDF Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm certain something isn't right with my setup. I'm trying to figure it out. got a hot basking spot that covers whole torso. The question now is. at 160F is that the temp of the floor? or is that the temp of the monitor's skin. Because the monitor is about 2 inches thick so if I measure the floor at 160F then when he's on the bask spot he would be over 160F. So that's a question I keep wondering about. I'd like to keep this discussion open until I get this fixed. I'm not happy with how my guy is lately I think he'll die if I can't figure this out.
Hope infernelis is here to read this, and anyone who has good experience feel free to jump in and help. I am looking at your latest youtube vid and I can really see your savs are way more thin and active than mine has become lately. I noticed your lighting setup in the video below. Can you please describe the type of bulbs, wattage and distance they are to the gound and the temperature they are at when you use a temp gun on the floor of the spot? I've been using 3x50 watt to get a 140F+ but yesterday I am getting desparate and got a 160Watt MVB to replace one of the bulbs but turns out the basking temp of those MVBs are really low unless I move them down closer to the basking board. So that's kind of what I have now.
The reason why I got the MVB is because I wanted to make sure the monitor's whol body would be covered in the light when basking. But I have a feeling I'm doing this all wrong and I'm getting frustrated.
I noticed no one here uses MVBs so I'm gonna try to imitate what you got in your video. Please help with directing me to get that lighting setup like yours. Thanks in advance.
5FvF3DTXBAA
While I'm still figuring the lighting out. I'll try the insect approach you speak of. It does seem he is really smart and he knows when I open the door to run to me, so it's almost like he knows not to bother hunting and digging for insects since I'll just hand him a meal.
Poor digestion & big meals usually cause big bellies, also lack of activity adds to it.
Finding the right basking temp which for a bigger sav can be up to 160f is the key to aiding faster digestion, some vivs that are small may not allow you to get to 160f surface basking temp, so you may have to find a happy medium that suits your cage size & monitor ( as near 160f as poss). This is because the heat generated from the hals bulbs that are needed to create the hotter basking spot flood covering snout to vent may over heat a small viv.
Feeding big meals constantly keeps the belly expanded whilst the meal is digested, if you leave you monitor without food for 3 days the stomach will be empty/digested. Along with the good basking spot this will encourage them to look for more food during that time.
If you feed rodents only you reduce your monitors access to activity levels in hunting for insects along with digging them out or foraging under cork bark etc.
Feed insects 1st, when they've gone you can then feed rodents, i sometimes throw a large handful of insects in the viv early am before the monitor is awake. This allows him to spend a few hours hunting around before he evens thinks of getting his meat diet.
A number of keepers have upper levels in their vivs, at an early stage this may cause problems because shy monitors may not like to climb into the open, place cover of some kind of cover across the basking area that the monitor can feel safe behind.
upper levels give another area of access to exercise as in climb, as well as deep substrate, it also keeps your hotter temps kept in the upper level, this gives you a very hot upper level & a cooler middle level & finally the ground level.
So you have a bigger range of humidity & temps for the monitor to choose from, one level & shallow substrate & crap basking spots floods give you nothing but problems.
Substrate is best heated from below as well as above because the heat can't penetrate fully into the lower soil levels, this means sitting the viv on sleepers of some kind.
Monitors are intelligent & will gladly sit in the same place & wait for food day in day out, annoy them & change the feeding times & keep them in hunting mode, they also use that hot spot flood to warm up for hunting, if it's not hot enough they'll reduce they interest in chasing after insects & wait for you to give in & feed them an easy meal!
Hopefully there's something that will help you above!! :) :)
just fin a 12 hour shift last night!!
Update: With the MVB + 50 watt halogen I've got a basking spot that covers the whole body. However the temp varies within the spot. I've got the 50% of the spot more in the middle at 160-165, with smaller area of 170F, then the remaining 50% of the spot(the outter circle) of around 135-140F. The humidity is still good, I will need another meter as the last one broke again. But my glasses still gets foggy when I enter the cage but def need to get a new meter to be sure.
Also I read that the MVB manual says that the UVB emitted is no stronger than the mid day sun under the shade. So I'm guessing even though I'm putting the bulb quite low it should still be safe.
I'm not sure how infernelis manages to have his bulbs so high up and still achieve 140F+.
murrindindi
12-18-13, 01:14 PM
Hi, is this a Powersun MVB? It isn`t only the UVB irradiation that needs to be taken into account, it`s also the heat, exactly how far from the surface of the bulb to the closest surface of the animal is it?
If this is a Powersun, there are reports that the amount of UVB is much less than the manufacturer claims (at least in the American bulbs and perhaps also Canadian)? You really need a Solar meter to check.
Edit: An MVB like the Powersun has a beam radius of around 75cm at a height of 30cm, in which case it would easily have covered the whole body.
Personally I would recommend using the T5 HO (high output) fluorescent tubes (UVB), then the halogen floods as basking lights.
Check out the 12% UVB tube rather than the 6%...
Arcadia T5 reptile lamps 6% D3+ (http://uk.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0SO81uN9rFSW2QAJahLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTE1Z3Y0a2w 5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRVVLMzlfO DU-/SIG=13qdi512l/EXP=1387423501/**http%3a//www.kjreptilesupplies.co.uk/lighting-c1/fluorescent-tubes-c4/arcadia-reptile-6-d3-t5-uv-tube-p8)
Hi, is this a Powersun MVB? It isn`t only the UVB irradiation that needs to be taken into account, it`s also the heat, exactly how far from the surface of the bulb to the closest surface of the animal is it?
If this is a Powersun, there are reports that the amount of UVB is much less than the manufacturer claims (at least in the American bulbs and perhaps also Canadian)? You really need a Solar meter to check.
Hi this is the powersun 160Watt. To get a 160F surface temp on the floor, the bulb is 5.5 - 6 inches away from the floor, I measured it with tape measure plus a temp gun. The 50 watt right next to it is 2-3 inches higher to produce similar surface temp. So I'm wondering since the monitor's body is thick, would this mean the bulb is too close. It seem to enjoy basking under that temp for 20-30 mins in the morning, then after that it only uses it for short periods. Then it lays somewhere else most of the time or goes in it's burrow.
For my tegu I'm using the same setup(with just the MVB tho) since his halogen floods got shotted(bad wiring on my part) But the tegu is functioning real well under this same setting. The only difference in the 2 animals is that my tegu would dig a burrow himself, however the sav needed me to make a surface on the ground and he will dig to live under the wood, but he does not make tunnels. The soil/sand mix is the same for both animals. 70% soil and 30% sand...
I just got a humidimeter and it says 75% humidity in the middle of the cage, lower than I had expected. It used to be 80%+ even 90% sometimes. It could be due to my house haing the furnace on more now that it's winter...
Not sure what else info I can give. I measured him today he is 2 feet 8 inches. Roughly, since he won't stay still when I was measuring him, keeps thinking I'll give him food.
murrindindi, Honestly I didn't get the MVB for the purpose of UVB. I got it in a panic to try to get a bulb setup that would cover his whold body for the sake of basking purpose not so much UVB. UVB would just be a bonus. But right now I don't think UVB is his problem, and my prime suspect was basking site error, thus the MVB I bought. So he's been using that for 2 days now + a extra 50w halogen flood. I don't seen any improvements, dispite the high basking temps...
Hi, is this a Powersun MVB? It isn`t only the UVB irradiation that needs to be taken into account, it`s also the heat, exactly how far from the surface of the bulb to the closest surface of the animal is it?
If this is a Powersun, there are reports that the amount of UVB is much less than the manufacturer claims (at least in the American bulbs and perhaps also Canadian)? You really need a Solar meter to check.
Edit: An MVB like the Powersun has a beam radius of around 75cm at a height of 30cm, in which case it would easily have covered the whole body.
Personally I would recommend using the T5 HO (high output) fluorescent tubes (UVB), then the halogen floods as basking lights.
Check out the 12% UVB tube rather than the 6%...
Arcadia T5 reptile lamps 6% D3+ (http://uk.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0SO81uN9rFSW2QAJahLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTE1Z3Y0a2w 5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRVVLMzlfO DU-/SIG=13qdi512l/EXP=1387423501/**http%3a//www.kjreptilesupplies.co.uk/lighting-c1/fluorescent-tubes-c4/arcadia-reptile-6-d3-t5-uv-tube-p8)
p.s. the temp in the middle of the cage on ground level is 27C, so the colder end would be probablt 25C giving the sav a wide range of temp.
murrindindi
12-18-13, 02:13 PM
murrindindi, Honestly I didn't get the MVB for the purpose of UVB. I got it in a panic to try to get a bulb setup that would cover his whold body for the sake of basking purpose not so much UVB. UVB would just be a bonus. But right now I don't think UVB is his problem, and my prime suspect was basking site error, thus the MVB I bought. So he's been using that for 2 days now + a extra 50w halogen flood. I don't seen any improvements, dispite the high basking temps...
It doesn`t matter whether you used the MVB for the UVB, heat or just illumination, it MUST be at LEAST 30cm from the face of the bulb to the closest surface of the monitor (which will normally mean it`s head), even slightly closer can cause very serious burns.
I`m not disagreeing with Mark (MDF) or anyone else just for the sake of it, but offering a surface temp of 160f will NOT necessarily cause the animal to lose weight or become more active throughout the day. It will only decrease the time it takes to get the core temp up to "activity level" by a very small amount, maybe a couple of minutes or so (obviously the actual speed will depend on the monitor`s mass).
Unless you can achieve that raised surface temp without also raising the ambient too much must also be taken into consideration (if it`s too warm they retreat), in which case they`ll cool down, become less active, defeating the purpose of raising it in the first place! This species is most active during the cooler wet season when ambient temps don`t usually get "extreme".
Other species DO encounter higher ambient and surface temps and use them very regularly, I`m not suggesting raising them is a bad thing in itself, but 140f is perfectly acceptable and should ensure the monitor can operate at it`s full potential, providing all the other parameters are met.
EDIT: Can you take a video of the monitor?
Edit, the humidity meter now says 86%. I guess it's kind of a slow one.
OK in this case I will need more help again. Currently for any of my bulbs to make the ground's surface temp to be 140F, it has to be only 5-10 inches away. e.g. 50 watt halogen needs to be 10 inches from the ground, or maybe less, to reach 140F on the floor. And the MVB needs to be 5 inches away form the ground to reach 140F on the ground.
If you say the light bulb must be 30cm from bulb to ANIMAL, then I can't possibliy achieve 140F on the floor surface. So I am really confused now what I should do. Please advice. Sorry I'm a person that needs great details when explaining what to do so please be patient.
It doesn`t matter whether you used the MVB for the UVB, heat or just illumination, it MUST be at LEAST 30cm from the face of the bulb to the closest surface of the monitor (which will normally mean it`s head), even slightly closer can cause very serious burns.
I`m not disagreeing with Mark (MDF) or anyone else just for the sake of it, but offering a surface temp of 160f will NOT necessarily cause the animal to lose weight or become more active throughout the day. It will only decrease the time it takes to get the core temp up to "activity level" by a very small amount, maybe a couple of minutes or so (obviously the actual speed will depend on the monitor`s mass).
Unless you can achieve that raised surface temp without also raising the ambient too much must also be taken into consideration (if it`s too warm they retreat), in which case they`ll cool down, become less active, defeating the purpose of raising it in the first place! This species is most active during the cooler wet season when ambient temps don`t usually get "extreme".
Other species DO encounter higher ambient and surface temps and use them very regularly, I`m not suggesting raising them is a bad thing in itself, but 140f is perfectly acceptable and should ensure the monitor can operate at it`s full potential, providing all the other parameters are met.
I can't take a vid now since he's hiding again, but let me find a recent one these few days.
Edit: unfortunately I don't have one. I've been recording the tegu mostly since he moves. The sav hasn't hardly been moving except if I open the door so no vids for now. Tomorrow I'll take a video of him.
murrindindi
12-18-13, 02:26 PM
This is the most efficient way to set up a basking site using halogen (flood) bulbs. No apologies for showing this pic previously, it`s quite hard to get the message through at times! :)
I need to use more bulbs because of my monitor`s size, you may only need 2 or 3....
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8183/8098456051_7b1138d12a_z.jpg
murrindindi
12-18-13, 02:26 PM
I can't take a vid now since he's hiding again, but let me find a recent one these few days.
Edit: unfortunately I don't have one. I've been recording the tegu mostly since he moves. The sav hasn't hardly been moving except if I open the door so no vids for now. Tomorrow I'll take a video of him.
Please do!
murrindindi
12-18-13, 02:29 PM
Don`t ever stop asking questions, if you don`t quite understand something ask for a further explanation! :)
One of the reasons the low wattage halogens work well is that they can be positioned relatively close without causing burns (obviously you must check very carefully), they can also be dimmed making it easy to adjust the surface temp, but you might need to use 2 or 3 as I mentioned.
Actually his head popped up just now so I lured him out with a fish. I measured him too in the video. He is not 1 feet 8 inches as I previously measured, but more like 28 inches. You can see in the video he's not totally straight and it's about 24 inches so I think stretched out is 28 inches or something.....
As you can see he's not looking too great...
Video is being uploaded to youtube so I'll post it in a few minutes!
While I wait for the video to upload can you please answer me this? The basking temp of 140F. Is that supposed to be the temp on the floor surface? Meaning I take a temp gun and measure the temp of the floor right under the bulb. Or should the 140F be the temp of the monitor's skin?
why I ask is because if the floor is 140F, then when the monitor is on the hot spot, the monitor is close to the bulb than the floor, which means his surface temp on his skin will be more than 140F.
So what to do?
Here's the vid of him. I was hiding in the burrow but happened to pop his head out so I lured him out with fish. This video shows the poo, the temp, humidity, basking site, basking temps of the floor and the monitor. thx
tdI2uFKDiL0
murrindindi
12-18-13, 03:55 PM
While I wait for the video to upload can you please answer me this? The basking temp of 140F. Is that supposed to be the temp on the floor surface? Meaning I take a temp gun and measure the temp of the floor right under the bulb. Or should the 140F be the temp of the monitor's skin?
why I ask is because if the floor is 140F, then when the monitor is on the hot spot, the monitor is close to the bulb than the floor, which means his surface temp on his skin will be more than 140F.
So what to do?
I don`t want to confuse you more than you seem to be just now, so I`ll just say that having the surface of the basking object at 140f will not cause the monitor any harm even though it`s body will be closer to the heat. It doesn`t mean his skin will burn or that his core temp will rise to that temp (again, it`s only the inanimate BASKING OBJECT `S surface).
He is quite overweight, that in itself will cause a lack of activity to some degree, if he isn`t really hungry there`s no need to move about apart from just basking to thermoregulate.
Try measuring either just the tail or just the snout to vent, then double it and you will have a fairly accurate measurement of his total length. If you have a plastic flexible tape measure it will make it a bit easier to do than the rigid metal one.
The enclosure looks very sparce, nothing on top of the soil such as bark or leaves etc, and no sturdy branches/logs for climbing. You absolutely MUST move the MVB to a safe distance immediately (30cm or over).
I don`t want to confuse you more than you seem to be just now, so I`ll just say that having the surface of the basking object at 140f will not cause the monitor any harm even though it`s body will be closer to the heat. It doesn`t mean his skin will burn or that his core temp will rise to that temp (again, it`s only the inanimate BASKING OBJECT `S surface).
He is quite overweight, that in itself will cause a lack of activity to some degree, if he isn`t really hungry there`s no need to move about apart from just basking to thermoregulate.
Try measuring either just the tail or just the snout to vent, then double it and you will have a fairly accurate measurement of his total length. If you have a plastic flexible tape measure it will make it a bit easier to do than the rigid metal one.
The enclosure looks very sparce, nothing on top of the soil such as bark or leaves etc, and no sturdy branches/logs for climbing. You absolutely MUST move the MVB to a safe distance immediately (30cm or over).
Hi so I take it you saw the video. So here's more, in point form :)
1.) I don't have a log to climb, but I do have a wooden ramp that allows climbing I'm not sure if you can see it in the video.
2.) I had a bunch of leaf litters covering the floor but they all got eaten or broken down and now it's winter so I have no more leaves outside(snowing)
3.) If I move the MVB higher, then the basking temp will not reach 140F, what do I do with that? This is where I'm most confused...
murrindindi
12-18-13, 05:26 PM
Hi so I take it you saw the video. So here's more, in point form :)
1.) I don't have a log to climb, but I do have a wooden ramp that allows climbing I'm not sure if you can see it in the video.
2.) I had a bunch of leaf litters covering the floor but they all got eaten or broken down and now it's winter so I have no more leaves outside(snowing)
3.) If I move the MVB higher, then the basking temp will not reach 140F, what do I do with that? This is where I'm most confused...
You need to take out the MVB and replace it with 1 or 2 halogens as I showed in the photo earlier (I doubt you will need this many, but that will depend on the wattages)...
One ramp = one branch, that`s not much, you need to provide the monitor with the "furniture" that will allow him to use as much of the available space as possible, that means under, on, and above the ground! ;)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8183/8098456051_7b1138d12a_z.jpg
OK replaced MVB bulb with halogen. Will take temps when the heat is stabilized.https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HkiVzBtN1GE/UrM2xAbo4HI/AAAAAAAAWcE/i-Mmi7OqpZk/w360-h360-p/photo.jpg
You need to take out the MVB and replace it with 1 or 2 halogens as I showed in the photo earlier (I doubt you will need this many, but that will depend on the wattages)...
One ramp = one branch, that`s not much, you need to provide the monitor with the "furniture" that will allow him to use as much of the available space as possible, that means under, on, and above the ground! ;)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8183/8098456051_7b1138d12a_z.jpg
murrindindi
12-19-13, 01:02 PM
Can you tell me the wattage of the three halogens and the exact distance they are from the basking surface?
Also, when did you first fit the MVB in, and how far away from the basking surface was it initially, and when did you lower it to increase the temps (in relation to the monitor quite suddenly not being very active)?
Edit: Are those bulb fixtures ceramic?
Hi!
Update,
- the humidity is now 95% I guess it took time for the meter to read.
- The monitor from nose to vent is 1 foot 3 inches
Answer,
- When I first put the MVB in was about 2 days ago, but he was already not active for some time that's why we had the conversation about diet several week ago. I put the MVB in at 30 CM or about 1 feet at first as per the instruction manual, but basking temp was 90F only or less, that's why I moved it closer to achieve 140F+ and it had to be moved to 5.5 inches
- All my bulbs now as of today since I replaced MVB is now 50 watts
- The distance is now 7-8 inches fro the wood, and basking temp as about 160F when I use the meter on the wood.
- They are ceramic, and weather proof.
Also, before I put the MVB the monitor was not active. After I put the MVB, the monitor hides underground all day.
Today after I removed the MVB, he seems to have surfaced. But I'll have to observe to see if he remains up here. It might be the MVB being too bright or strong and irritates him so he went underground for the past couple days.
murrindindi
12-19-13, 01:31 PM
Hi, thanks for the details, and I think you may have hit the nail on the head re his behaviour over the last couple of days at least; it may very well be that he couldn`t stay in the basking area too long because of the intense brightness and heat from the MVB, so he retreated below.
In the video the hygrometer was reading (I think?) around 85f, is that the coolest ambient in the enclosure above/on the surface?
If he wasn`t active before you put the 160w bulb in, which bulbs were in place, and where is the humidity at 95%?
Hi the meter was I think 26C? that's near the middle but slightly closer to the cool side so the coolest end will be cooler but maybe 1-2 degrees i'm not sure. But he actually rarely goes to the cool side except to take a crap. He craps in the same cold side everytime.
Also before the MVB, I was using this same 3 bulbs. So essentially I've just reverted back to 3 days ago and now i'm back to square one.
P.S. he' went in the burrow again just now...
EDIT, there's a slight difference to before the MVB and now. Before the MVB with the 3 halogens only I had surface temp of 140F, however today after the MVB is REMOVED the basking temp is 160F, due to some recommendations of people here. So everything is the same as a few days ago now, except I moved the bulbs to a distance to produce 160F.
Hi, thanks for the details, and I think you may have hit the nail on the head re his behaviour over the last couple of days at least; it may very well be that he couldn`t stay in the basking area too long because of the intense brightness and heat from the MVB, so he retreated below.
In the video the hygrometer was reading (I think?) around 85f, is that the coolest ambient in the enclosure above/on the surface?
If he wasn`t active before you put the 160w bulb in, which bulbs were in place, and where is the humidity at 95%?
I opened the door and he came out of the burrow and came to me for food, so I gave him a worm. Then he roamed around a little and realize there's no food around and now he's basking again. I think after he basks he'll return to the hole again. We'll see.. here's his picture basking just now.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yRVMn2fjhkU/UrNSVzxLUrI/AAAAAAAAWcY/xE65rDmF9qo/w1089-h817-no/IMG_20131219_130847.jpg
murrindindi
12-19-13, 02:27 PM
All you can do is keep an eye on him over the next few days, reduce the amount of food until his body condition improves, and keep us all updated (and try and get some more "furniture" so he can use more of the space)!
OK I see he's no longer in the burrow. That's the most he's been above ground for the past couple days. So I think most likely the issue was the MVB making him go under. Now that issue is solved I guess we're back to the original problem where he just lays above ground and does nothing.
So what I'll do is keep the low intake diet and try to get him to lose weight.
Get some furnitures.. Not sure what yet... Maybe some fake leave and vines?
All you can do is keep an eye on him over the next few days, reduce the amount of food until his body condition improves, and keep us all updated (and try and get some more "furniture" so he can use more of the space)!
murrindindi
12-19-13, 03:29 PM
By all means you can add some plastic plants for cover but they won`t allow the monitor to use more of the space, sturdy, firmly fixed branches/logs, a few more ramps will.
I still think his being overweight is at least a part of his "immobility".
It may take many weeks to get him back in good condition, the reduced diet is not just for a week or two, keep it up as long as necessary.
EDIT: I know this current topic is your main concern just now, but did you notice David (crodoc) responded in the Bengal monitor thread you started?
mdfmonitor
12-19-13, 03:37 PM
As Stefan has pointed out it's your basking set-up causing you problems!!
I like to have a neat line of lights (like Stefan's),if you have more than 2 in a line then you find the middle one is usually hotter surface basking temp than the outer surface temps., that basking spot flood is what charges his./her turbo up.
Use bulbs that push the heat downwards, hals push the heat downwards, also the bigger the bulbs you use the greater the burn off in the viv of humidity, also the greater the gap between the bulb & basking surface the more air is pulled under & air dried/humidity burned off.
If you use a reflector this also pushes heat down, silver backed reflector are more efficient.
I like a greater gap between the light bulb & basking surface, this allows the monitor to pose rather than crawl under the lamps, if they have a high basking spot flood (160f) this allows the monitor to spend less time basking which means they aren't breathing the drier air for as long.
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/DSC01076.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/DSC01076.jpg.html)
These light are mounted high above the ply surface & located at the top of the cage, the lower reflector has the bulb set the same height as the rest>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Untitled00007-12.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Untitled00007-12.jpg.html)
What wattages are you using?
As Stefan has pointed out it's your basking set-up causing you problems!!
I like to have a neat line of lights (like Stefan's),if you have more than 2 in a line then you find the middle one is usually hotter surface basking temp than the outer surface temps., that basking spot flood is what charges his./her turbo up.
Use bulbs that push the heat downwards, hals push the heat downwards, also the bigger the bulbs you use the greater the burn off in the viv of humidity, also the greater the gap between the bulb & basking surface the more air is pulled under & air dried/humidity burned off.
If you use a reflector this also pushes heat down, silver backed reflector are more efficient.
I like a greater gap between the light bulb & basking surface, this allows the monitor to pose rather than crawl under the lamps, if they have a high basking spot flood (160f) this allows the monitor to spend less time basking which means they aren't breathing the drier air for as long.
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/DSC01076.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/DSC01076.jpg.html)
These light are mounted high above the ply surface & located at the top of the cage, the lower reflector has the bulb set the same height as the rest>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Untitled00007-12.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Untitled00007-12.jpg.html)
mdfmonitor
12-19-13, 04:14 PM
What wattages are you using?
A big wattage! 3x100watt hals 30 degree beam, i still get 50% humidity next to them at around 95f, looking at your set-up 1 mounted high might meet your requirements.
75% lower level at 82f there abouts, i also keep one end very wet, but you can do that in a 10 foot long viv
BUT i'd try & keep to smaller wattages if i was you, easier to control 2x75w hals.
OK I'll observe my current setup for now. with 2x50watt. If after 1-2 months things don't improve from diet, I'll try 1x100 Watt halo that's mounted higher up. Since higher up will give it a big dome light and my monitor is not that big. But one step at a time.
A big wattage! 3x100watt hals 30 degree beam, i still get 50% humidity next to them at around 95f, looking at your set-up 1 mounted high might meet your requirements.
75% lower level at 82f there abouts, i also keep one end very wet, but you can do that in a 10 foot long viv
BUT i'd try & keep to smaller wattages if i was you, easier to control 2x75w hals.
I flipped over a rock and saw a couple curled up worms so I took one to lure the sav to the site. He ate them and it seemed to have perked his interest. So he started digging and eating. It's been a while since he worked for his food. This went on for a good 15 minutes! Then he went to bask for 10-15 mins after. And then he returned to the site to look for more worms, however he gave up within 2 minutes after. Hopefully this is the beginning of him learning to hunt for food again.
5LglPWjPfgY
So far so good! This morning he woke up, basked for a while then started exploring the cage. Which is something he hasn't done for a while. Hope this lasts.
What I did differently:
- I left 1 halogen 50 watt on during the night because I thought maybe the night temp is too low now that it's winter. During the summer months I didn't leave any heat sources on at night as it got too hot at night and he seemed inactive. I guess I forgot to switch back to have night heat after so many months of summer.
- I found a tree that was broken by wind or something and put it in the cage, it makes the cage seem more foresty. No leaves though..
- The basking temp is 160F with 3x50 watt halogen during the day, a week ago was same lights but 140F
- Added 200 crix in the tank, but he's not really interested in them, tho he did eat a couple but mostly ignored.
Not sure which of the following changes made the difference... Hopefully it is not a coincidence that he's more active today and we actually nailed something down and he's on the road to recovery... I hope...
Video coming soon...
Spoke too soon... After roaming around for 20 mins he went to lay around and back to the lazy sav. Let's see what happens after losing some weight...
mdfmonitor
12-22-13, 12:28 PM
Just remember they don't run round all day!!:):)
try 75w 1st & move up if you need a greater wattage, to big a wattage may over heat the cage!
My lamps are attached to chains & hooks screwed into the top of the viv, so you can adjust the height of the lamps>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/DSC01131.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/DSC01131.jpg.html)
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