Bizarre woma python affliction- anyone see something like this before?

[Will0W783]

I came home from a reptile show Saturday night to find my 3.5 year old male woma very sick/injured. The snake was healthy and normal the day before, when I filled the water dishes and watched him breeding my female. He also seemed ok when I made a quick check Saturday morning before leaving for the show.

When I got home, he was lying in an odd, kinked position on the floor of the cage. I lifted him out, and was horrified to see his bottom jaw ballooned out and swollen. He was gasping to breath, and he seemed to be having rigid paralysis of the back half of his body. It was stiff, but he could not move. His neck was loose and floppy.
I really thought he would die within hours, but I separated him and set him up in a clean tub by himself. Sunday morning the swelling was gone in his face, and he was able to lift his head up, but he still cannot move the back half of his body, which now seems rather limp.

I had somehow had mites on some long-term snakes 3 weeks before, and I was using No-Pest strip pieces to treat the problem. That was 3 weeks prior however, and the female woma in the same cage with the male is perfectly fine.
Could it still be a bizarre reaction to the strips, after 3 weeks? Could she have injured him- maybe broke his back or neck?
I just don't know what to think about the facial swelling. Here's a picture of him as I found him Saturday night. If anyone else has ever seen anything like this before, I would appreciate hearing about it. As it stands, that room is on lockdown until I figure out what's going on.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/20131207_210826_zps4efb179f.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/Will0W783/media/20131207_210826_zps4efb179f.jpg.html)


He is still alive, and can lift his head up, but he is still unable to move the back half of his body. I really am attached to him, and I am really worried.

[alessia55]

I have no advice- but I hope someone else might at least have some ideas. I'll try calling you tonight. x

[formica]

Vet should be the first call for any form of paralysis in an animal - broken back is a possibility, swelling of the head could be down to spinal trauma - but he needs diagnosis from a vet asap, today, paralysis is not something which should be left unchecked for days, or even hours

as a precaution when taking him to the vet, try not to move his body around to much, difficult with a snake, but movement of the spine, if it is a spinal injury, can make it worse - I have not a clue how would go about keeping a snake from moving around, piece of cardboard under the body, and wrap in towels, maybe? not sure, maybe someone has a better solution, or perhaps your Vet if you call them before leaving

[lady_bug87]

Can snakes have strokes?

[Will0W783]

I have a call in to my vet, and am waiting for a call back. I will let you guys know as soon as I hear anything.

[KORBIN5895]

How did you get the mites?

[Will0W783]

I'm taking him in to the vet at 6pm tonight.

I have no idea where the mites came from. There hadn't been any new animals brought into the room for months, and there was no sign of mites the week prior when I had cleaned cages. The only thing was that a friend of mine came over to help me clean that has snakes of his own- I don't know if he could have brought them in.
That is the only thing I can think of, since no new animals came in and everything is quarantined before it enters my room.

[Derek Roddy]

To me....(and I've had this happen and had other friends had it happen with aspidities) but, looks like the female may have had a go with him.
Swollen head usually means she grabbed him by it.... and then constricted. Which would explain your symptoms and, the fact that he was fine the day before.

Just keep a close eye on him.

Had a buddy almost lose a male boelens recently from this same event. Luckily, he caught her in the act and was able to save the male.

Maybe look for slight abrasions around the swollen areas. Snakes don't leave too much evidence against scales but, you might noticed some puncture wounds on the skin.

Of course, a vet is in order as well.

D

[Will0W783]

Could the No-Pest strips have caused the swelling and paralysis, even though every other snake seems fine?

[Terranaut]

Just currious Kim , you being a long time keeper and all have you seen some of the posts as to why you should not use a pest strip for mites?
You may wish to reconsider this regardless of wether or not it affected your woma. Have you tried a sensory test on the snakes tail to see if the spinal cord was damaged? Does the snakes tail react to touch?

[Will0W783]

I've heard mixed reviews on the pest strips and never used them before. But since my mentor and several other experienced venomous keepers recommend them I gave it a try. Regardless of if they caused this I'll be back to using Nix. I can't take chances with my animals

[Derek Roddy]

Could the No-Pest strips have caused the swelling and paralysis, even though every other snake seems fine?

Not likely. It wouldn't cause any kind of swelling at all.

I've never used Pest stripes inside my cages (other than a 1" by 1" piece in a deli cup) but.....I've used em in my room for over 20 years along with dozens of other keepers I know with no ill effect.

Of course, you can mess em up by putting the entire strip in a cage but, using them hanging in a standard size room will hurt nothing and, it's something I've done as a preventative for years and years.

If your male was "OK" the day before...most likely she wrapped him up.

D

[Terranaut]

Not sure what method your using but I personally would never use one inside any of my snake vivs.

[red ink]

Is he due for a shed... had a mate whose woma would swell up like that coming up to a shed.

He rushed it to the vet only to find she had shed in the bag on the way there and the swelling was gone.

[formica]

i remember reading somthing about some GTP's heads swelling up pre-shed, doesnt explain the paralysis tho?

[Will0W783]

Ok. Just got home from the vet- it was nothing to do with the pest strips. The vet said the female had bitten him in the throat and he got a jaw infection. The swelling pinched off the nerves running down his spine, like your leg falling asleep.
He's on a course of Tylan and should make a full recovery! I'm so happy he's going to be ok....and no more hanky panky for him.

[Terranaut]

Great news....sorta ;)

[alessia55]

Kim, how did the vet appointment go?

[Pareeeee]

Kim, how did the vet appointment go?

Ok. Just got home from the vet- it was nothing to do with the pest strips. The vet said the female had bitten him in the throat and he got a jaw infection. The swelling pinched off the nerves running down his spine, like your leg falling asleep.
He's on a course of Tylan and should make a full recovery! I'm so happy he's going to be ok....and no more hanky panky for him.

There you go Alessia :p


Kim: Good news! Poor guy looks so swollen! :hmm: Hope he recovers quickly!

[MDT]

The real question is what did the male say to the female woma to piss her off so badly?

Glad to hear it's mother crazy bad :)
Interesting case for sure..

[alessia55]

There you go Alessia :p

LOL Paris, I somehow missed the second page entirely. Thanks ;) :o

Kim, glad the vet was able to figure out what happened. Hugs

[Terranaut]

The real question is what did the male say to the female woma to piss her off so badly?

Glad to hear it's mother crazy bad :)
Interesting case for sure..

Maybe he was eyeing another woma :)
Or came home late from work?

[red ink]

The real question is what did the male say to the female woma to piss her off so badly?

Glad to hear it's mother crazy bad :)
Interesting case for sure..


She was probably a bit peckish....

[MDT]

Stupid iPad..not "mother crazy bad". Meant to say "glad it's NOT crazy bad"...
Sheesh...

[formica]

good to hear that recovery is on the cards :)

[shaunyboy]

i'm sorry to see him like this Kimberly.....

the first thought that popped into my head as i read your post,was that maybe the female attacked him after mating...

are their any marks on the female or him,that would back up this theory pal ?

cheers shaun

p.s.sorry Kimberly,i just read the whole thread,confirming the female had a go at him

[Derek Roddy]

Ok. Just got home from the vet- it was nothing to do with the pest strips. The vet said the female had bitten him in the throat and he got a jaw infection. The swelling pinched off the nerves running down his spine, like your leg falling asleep.


Yeah, that's what I figured....which is why I mentioned it.

I've seen it a few times now. Sometimes females just don't like to be relentlessly spurred and will grab the male a choke em out of they don't knock it off.

Just give her a break. In fact, give her a few weeks then try to re introduce him.

He may have already done the deed but, I'd still try in Jan. Jan and Feb seem to be the months that my aspidities breedings mean the most.

Cheers,
D

[Will0W783]

I'm definitely separating them for a long while. They have actually been together since around March, when he busted out the divider between the cages and squeezed in to get to her. I kept noticing copulations even up to a week ago, so I had let them stay together.
I'm going to give it a rest for the season this year I think. It's not worth losing my male to me. I might try to breed them again next year, as I will have some other animals ready for cooling in that room too at that point.

It's odd...I didn't see any bite marks on Mac. ...he must have been bitten a few weeks ago, and the infection just built up even though the marks healed. Poor guy. He's looking even better this morning though- he's able to slither around a bit and looks like he's getting his coordination back.

[Derek Roddy]

I'm definitely separating them for a long while. They have actually been together since around March, when he busted out the divider between the cages and squeezed in to get to her. I kept noticing copulations even up to a week ago, so I had let them stay together.
I'm going to give it a rest for the season this year I think. It's not worth losing my male to me. I might try to breed them again next year, as I will have some other animals ready for cooling in that room too at that point.

It's odd...I didn't see any bite marks on Mac. ...he must have been bitten a few weeks ago, and the infection just built up even though the marks healed. Poor guy. He's looking even better this morning though- he's able to slither around a bit and looks like he's getting his coordination back.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Any time you put aspididties together....you run that risk.

When breeding my Black-Headeds and womas....I put males in only for a few days then remove them for a couple days.... then put em back. Females don't seem to get as stressed that way.

If he's been in that long....I can see why it happened.

As far as bite marks....like I said in my first post....you don't see em very well on scales.
Might get some scales out of place or folded on the ends but, it's very hard to see that a snake has been bitten by another snake.

Most likely, it happened the day before you noticed him like that.

Glad he's OK.

D

[Will0W783]

Thanks Derek,

These are my only Aspidites and I wasn't aware of their tendency to bite each other. I will be much more careful about letting them together in the future and only do it for a few days at a time, like you suggest. I appreciate any advice- I'm admittedly more knowledgeable on the vipers than pythons anymore.

[Donnie]

Good to hear you found out the reason and he is now on the mend.

[gonesnakee]

Thanks Derek,

These are my only Aspidites and I wasn't aware of their tendency to bite each other. I will be much more careful about letting them together in the future and only do it for a few days at a time, like you suggest. I appreciate any advice- I'm admittedly more knowledgeable on the vipers than pythons anymore.

They eat pretty much nothing but other reptiles in the wild & should be treated the same as Kingsnakes when breeding them, thus the chance of them killing each other, typically it is females that will attack males.
The males usually have other priorities on their minds, Mark

P.S. continual exposure to toxic chemicals (pest strips) is a BAD idea & is not a good preventative measure to have animals continually exposed to known toxins 24/7/365, I would be less worried about mites & more worried about the slow poisoning of all the animals in the room.

[Will0W783]

Mark, the pest strips were not in there permanently. After two weeks of the pest strips, I decided they weren't working, so I removed them, cleaned everything and treated with Nix. The mites were gone in days after the first Nix treatment.

The male woma recovered fully with antibiotics and is back to normal- they are no longer together, and I'm not sure if I'll try to breed them again.

[Tsubaki]

happy to hear he made a full recovery!! :)

[gonesnakee]

Mark, the pest strips were not in there permanently. After two weeks of the pest strips, I decided they weren't working, so I removed them, cleaned everything and treated with Nix. The mites were gone in days after the first Nix treatment.

The male woma recovered fully with antibiotics and is back to normal- they are no longer together, and I'm not sure if I'll try to breed them again.

I was more referring to comments in some of the other posts where they come across as having them in there all the time, BAD IDEA.

As for trying again I would, just ensure they are well fed prior & don't leave them together too long.

I have personally never had an issue with mine ever & typically when I have had issues with other species such as KS it is in the first minute of introduction.

I have had females get set off by me when removing males as well (including Womas, almost had my thumb dislocated once DOH!), but never otherwise (touches wood) LOL
Basically if the animals are well fed & conditions are right they tend to breed & not try to feed.

In your case I'm thinking it was more as suggested above that she became annoyed with him over time, as once they go into feed (kill) mode they usually don't stop unless made too.

Folks must realize that with breeding comes certain risks, specially with snakes that can cannibalize each other & your story is a good one to share with them.

Glad to hear everything worked out OK in the long run for you & don't let it shut you down for breeding, incidents usually don't happen, but can as you have experienced, don't let it taint you.

Cheers Mark

[Will0W783]

Thanks Mark, I appreciate it. I might breed them again, but I'm actually considering narrowing down my collection to just my live-birthing vipers. I've been really busy with work and finances have been tight as of late. Fewer mouths to feed would probably help. It'd be hard to sell everything else though....

[Sharlynn93]

Thanks Mark, I appreciate it. I might breed them again, but I'm actually considering narrowing down my collection to just my live-birthing vipers. I've been really busy with work and finances have been tight as of late. Fewer mouths to feed would probably help. It'd be hard to sell everything else though....

so sad that you may have to hone down your collection...but at least your lovely gaboons would make the cut ;) I LOVE to see your pics of them...they are my favorite venomous snake, and since I will never keep hots, I live through your wonderful pics! :D

[KORBIN5895]

so sad that you may have to hone down your collection...but at least your lovely gaboons would make the cut ;) I LOVE to see your pics of them...they are my favorite venomous snake, and since I will never keep hots, I live through your wonderful pics! :D

This is why i find it so important to determine what you really want in your collection. It helps you avoid this situation. Unfortunately we've all been there.

[Sharlynn93]

This is why i find it so important to determine what you really want in your collection. It helps you avoid this situation. Unfortunately we've all been there.

totally understood...mine isn't that large at the moment...may be taking a different shift at work, one that will either limit my time, or even extend it depending on how I take to night shift...IF i take the job...have to decide by morning...which is why I am not jumping into anything else for a while...I DO still love the pics! (reiterating!) (hint hint!) ;)