The UVB Varanid debate !

[smy_749]

I'm sure there are already discussions about this, and most of us agree that its not necessary for a healthy monitor. Everyone I've talked to in our US community agrees, however our european counterparts look down upon us for not using adequate lighting and keeping our animals in small boxes (frequently said on FB groups)

Anyways, I now have a 48" 6500k bulb and a 48" zoomed reptisun 10.0 bulb, 2 x 65 watt basking spotlights and a 38 watt basking spot light. I have all of my old pictures and I have current weights for my little guys. I will compare new pics for coloration improvement (this is an effect of the UVB, more beautiful colors...apparently), differences in weight increase, appetite, breeding behavior (hopefully! since I haven't seen any yet) and posting it all in this thread.

Gonna try to give my unbiased opinion as to its benefits, I am of the opinion that it doesn't do much.

The bulb is 6 inches away from the basking area, and a few longs get even closer.

[Toothless]

I plan to add UVB to my enclosure as well, but unfortunately have to wait until the new year when I start back at work as funds are limited right now- the ones I found here are $60.
I plan to start having regular bloodwork and x-rays done next year as well, and am curious to know if there will be any changes in blood chemistry and x-rays (plan to get it taken before adding the UVB, and again after 6 months of exposure).

[TheFrogman]

I have read the argument that UVB adds no value to a snake but I have also read that UVB can actually hurt a snake and or a snakes eyes. What are your thoughts on this?

[poison123]

I have read the argument that UVB adds no value to a snake but I have also read that UVB can actually hurt a snake and or a snakes eyes. What are your thoughts on this?

False. There were some bulbs that have been known to harm reptile eyes in general. But I believe the brand has fixed the problem. I have used UVB lighting on snakes with no ill effects.

[TheFrogman]

False. There were some bulbs that have been known to harm reptile eyes in general. But I believe the brand has fixed the problem. I have used UVB lighting on snakes with no ill effects.

Ok great that is good to know.
Thanks

[smy_749]

Toothless, they are also 60$ here for the four foot ones, luckily amazon.com has them on sale for 22 and I get free shipping with my sisters prime account so it was a no brainer. @ Thefrogman, basically what poison said. Also, the problem was with coil bulbs, not tube fixtures. Although I'm doing this with monitors, I have also heard UVB brings out better coloration in some of the carpets and is beneficial (necessary?) for M.s.spilota.

I just talked with a few of the moni guys who told me to expect breeding behavior as soon as the lights switch on tomorrow. Haha.

[TheFrogman]

Aesome, thanks and good luck

Im going to go on Amazon now, I need a 36" Bulb

[Mikoh4792]

Toothless, they are also 60$ here for the four foot ones, luckily amazon.com has them on sale for 22 and I get free shipping with my sisters prime account so it was a no brainer. @ Thefrogman, basically what poison said. Also, the problem was with coil bulbs, not tube fixtures. Although I'm doing this with monitors, I have also heard UVB brings out better coloration in some of the carpets and is beneficial (necessary?) for M.s.spilota.

I just talked with a few of the moni guys who told me to expect breeding behavior as soon as the lights switch on tomorrow. Haha.

Not sure how true that is for morelia. I've noticed mine look much better under uvb flourescents(temporarily) but haven't seen any confirmed experiments where carpets raised under uvb gain permanent color enhancement.

Also on facebook there is this guy who has a 25 year old(if I remember correctly, but still over 20 years) diamond python. It was a common misconception to believe that diamonds needed uvb for health benefits, but itwas actually due to other husbandry mistakes(keeping them too hot). He says he hasn't kept any morelia under uvb and they are all healthy.

[smy_749]

Not sure how true that is for morelia. I've noticed mine look much better under uvb flourescents(temporarily) but haven't seen any confirmed experiments where carpets raised under uvb gain permanent color enhancement.

Also on facebook there is this guy who has a 25 year old(if I remember correctly, but still over 20 years) diamond python. It was a common misconception to believe that diamonds needed uvb for health benefits, but itwas actually due to other husbandry mistakes(keeping them too hot). He says he hasn't kept any morelia under uvb and they are all healthy.

Joshua easter^^ Its 25 yea haha crazy

I'm just saying what I've heard from some morelia guys. Dunno how true any of it is as I've never looked into it further.Don't think he lives too far from us (NH?), maybe thats why he's been successful with them, its so cold up here

[Mikoh4792]

Joshua easter^^ Its 25 yea haha crazy

I'm just saying what I've heard from some morelia guys. Dunno how true any of it is as I've never looked into it further.Don't think he lives too far from us (NH?), maybe thats why he's been successful with them, its so cold up here

Does it get hot in warm season there? Can't keep diamonds where I live since my house gets to 84f sometimes.

[shaunyboy]

I have read the argument that UVB adds no value to a snake but I have also read that UVB can actually hurt a snake and or a snakes eyes. What are your thoughts on this?

i use 2.0 UVB natural sunlight bulbs with my carpet pythons with no issues

it is thought that NOT using UVB when keeping Diamond Pythons,can lead to DPS and premature death...

2.0 is the strongest UVB i would use with Carpet Pythons

cheers shaun

[smy_749]

Does it get hot in warm season there? Can't keep diamonds where I live since my house gets to 84f sometimes.

He actually lives in maine, but they still hit 80's and 90's in summer. buy another AC or something haha

[TheFrogman]

i use 2.0 UVB natural sunlight bulbs with my carpet pythons with no issues

it is thought that NOT using UVB when keeping Diamond Pythons,can lead to DPS and premature death...

2.0 is the strongest UVB i would use with Carpet Pythons

cheers shaun

Thanks for the tip, Ill pick one up for my Spotty tomorrow

[mdfmonitor]

Not used it yet, very hard to fit a UVB bulb in & still achieve 160f basking surface temp & not over heat the run. I prefer a good hot basking spot covering snout to vent myself, if enclosure was twice as big 10x10 then it would be in regardless of needing it.

Black tape is the compare line, bottom right bottom pic. April 7th till around Nov 1st (2nd pic) :)
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00033-20.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00033-20.jpg.html)
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00013-13.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00013-13.jpg.html)

[smy_749]

My winter temps are a bit low anyways, the extra wattage is being put to good use, and in the summer / spring I think I'll just remove one of the basking bulbs. They are now basking in the spot they never use, because its the closest one to the UVB. Strange how they know...

[mdfmonitor]

Just looking tonight & he can stand on the floor now & reach the top!! still growing an inch a week!

I had a ceramic to heat the lower level for winter, i've swop it for another basking spot flood, he now uses both basking sites at the lower & higher temps.

He goes by the skylight light levels if he's full, otherwise he waits up for me!! :)

[Roman]

I'm sure there are already discussions about this, and most of us agree that its not necessary for a healthy monitor. Everyone I've talked to in our US community agrees, however our european counterparts look down upon us for not using adequate lighting and keeping our animals in small boxes (frequently said on FB groups)


As I am one of these “European counterparts” :p I might just add some of “our” views here…

First of all, I did keep an Ackies dwarf monitor (Varanus acanthurus) for some years, but that’s my only experience with keeping any lizards at all. Having said that, I have several books about keeping monitors and have good connections to several keepers and breeders of lizards in general and monitors in particular.

I don’t know about the “European” point of view, but here in Germany it is pretty much the common opinion that you need UVB light to keep your lizard healthy. The reasoning behind this is obviously the vitamin D3 synthesis to add calcium to the bone structure. I suppose this topic is well known for most of us, so I don’t go into too much details. Basically there is no need to supplement vitamin D3 for vertebrates which feed on mammals or birds, because there is more than enough vitamin D3 in the liver of each prey, so for most snakes there is no need for any supplementation. Insectivore lizards on the other hand need an outside source for vitamin D3, because insects don’t contain enough D3 to provide an adequate source. So in order to provide enough vitamin D3 you have to either supplement the feeder insects with some multivitamin powder or provide a source of UV-B light so that the monitor can build enough D3.

In Germany we use both methods simultaneously, we provide UV-B light and supplement every second meal with a multivitamin powder (and any meal with some calcium powder). I found some statement in my literature that it might be enough to just add the supplementation without UV-B, but they also stated that it might be tricky to get the right amount without under-supplying the monitor or to poison it with an overdose. So the general recommendation is to use UV-B lighting as one light-, heat- and UV-B-source.

There is no obvious need to provide UV-B light for most snakes (with the exception of the Diamond pythons Shaun mentioned, the rough green grass snake Opheodrys aestivus as an insectivore snake might also benefit from additional UV-B light). However I use two HCI and one 70 W UV-B spot for my large Spilotes enclosure (tiger ratsnakes). I don’t know if there is any positive effect for the snakes, they do not favor or avoid the basking spot right under the UV-B spot, sometimes they use it, sometimes not. The light has a very positive effect on my plants, they grow even better right under this spot as in the rest of the enclosure, so I keep this light as an additional light and heat source.

Roman

[Mikoh4792]

There is no obvious need to provide UV-B light for most snakes (with the exception of the Diamond pythons Shaun mentioned, the rough green grass snake Opheodrys aestivus as an insectivore snake might also benefit from additional UV-B light).

Roman

I was told by a keeper of a 25 year old diamond python that they do not need UVB, it's just that people were keeping them wrong until recently.

[smy_749]

Roman, I didnt mean it in a negative manner. But many times on Fb I see those statements. Anyways, its only been a day or two, already noticing twice the activity level. They switched basking spots from the one they always used to the one closest to the bulb. They also increased their appetites, but it has been warm lately and the bulb added extra heat. So too early to say.

[Roman]

Roman, I didnt mean it in a negative manner. But many times on Fb I see those statements.

Smy, don't worry, I did not think you meant it negativ.

Roman

[murrindindi]

Insectivore lizards on the other hand need an outside source for vitamin D3, because insects don’t contain enough D3 to provide an adequate source. So in order to provide enough vitamin D3 you have to either supplement the feeder insects with some multivitamin powder or provide a source of UV-B light so that the monitor can build enough D3.
I found some statement in my literature that it might be enough to just add the supplementation without UV-B, but they also stated that it might be tricky to get the right amount without under-supplying the monitor or to poison it with an overdose. So the general recommendation is to use UV-B lighting as one light-, heat- and UV-B-source.

There is no obvious need to provide UV-B light for most snakes (with the exception of the Diamond pythons Shaun mentioned.
Roman


Hi, there are no Varanid species that are strictly insectivorous as far as I know (either in the wild or captivity), so I`m not sure which species you feel actually need supplementary UVB to remain healthy in captivity?
There is now overwhelming evidence that fully supported captive Varanids do NOT need exposure to real or artificial UVB in order to remain in good health, long lived and productive.
My own thoughts are that Varanids in the wild may benefit from UVB exposure more especially during the harsher periods when food may perhaps be in relatively short supply (so the ability to absorb the UVB rays is a sort of "back up" system).

I`m not sure that Diamond and Carpet snakes actually require UVB to remain healthy either (though there`s absolutely no harm in providing it), as they certainly do bask in unfiltered natural sunlight in the wild (personal experience).
In that respect, I don`t quite understand why the other member (Shaun) only uses a 2-0 UVB tube for this subspecies (I`m not suggesting a 2-0 is harmful at all).

[murrindindi]

Roman, I didnt mean it in a negative manner. But many times on Fb I see those statements. Anyways, its only been a day or two, already noticing twice the activity level. They switched basking spots from the one they always used to the one closest to the bulb. They also increased their appetites, but it has been warm lately and the bulb added extra heat. So too early to say.

Hi,
I`ve used MVB`s for many years here in Europe, convinced it was necessary, but for the last two years I haven't, and neither have I noticed the slightest difference in behaviour during that period.
I`m totally convinced these days that while real/artificial UVB may not be harmful, it isn`t needed in captivity so long as they are fully supported in regards to temps, humidity, a whole prey diet, suitable substrate and nesting etc, etc. Without all those parameters being met, no amount of UVB irradiation or supplementation will keep them healthy in the long term.

[Roman]

Hi, there are no Varanid species that are strictly insectivorous as far as I know (either in the wild or captivity), so I`m not sure which species you feel actually need supplementary UVB to remain healthy in captivity?
There is now overwhelming evidence that fully supported captive Varanids do NOT need exposure to real or artificial UVB in order to remain in good health, long lived and productive.


I agree, most small or medium sized varanids feed on insects and smaller vertebrates like other lizards or snakes. But most of us can’t provide those on a regular basis, so that leaves us with an insectivore diet with some baby mice as occasional treats.

All sources I could find will tell you that insects provide no or nearly no vitamin D3, so you have to provide it from an external source, especially as baby mice are the equivalent of a big burger for a small monitor, something you may eat, but not on a regular basis.

Could you please provide your source that there is no need for an external exposure of UV-B?

How do you feed your monitors, which food-mix do you provide?

Roman

[murrindindi]

I agree, most small or medium sized varanids feed on insects and smaller vertebrates like other lizards or snakes. But most of us can’t provide those on a regular basis, so that leaves us with an insectivore diet with some baby mice as occasional treats.

All sources I could find will tell you that insects provide no or nearly no vitamin D3, so you have to provide it from an external source, especially as baby mice are the equivalent of a big burger for a small monitor, something you may eat, but not on a regular basis.

Could you please provide your source that there is no need for an external exposure of UV-B?

How do you feed your monitors, which food-mix do you provide?

Roman

Hi again, my sources are many, there are some very experienced keepers and breeders of Varanids in Germany, one of those being Prof. Dr. Hans-Georg Horn, are you familiar with his work?
In America there`s Frank Retes (one of the worlds most successful keepers and breeders), also Justin Burokas and Ben Aller....
May I ask which books you have that suggest UVB is necessary for captive Varanids?
All my monitors have ALWAYS received a whole prey diet from hatchlings to adlulthood which included vertebrate and invert prey.
Edit: I cannot believe that vertebrates are not readily available in Germany (you say "most of us cannot provide them on a regular basis"), and the suggestion that baby mice "are like feeding a burger" (junk food) is complete nonsense, they are a healthy and very nutritious meal.
Please do not take anything I say as being disrespectful to you! :)

[formica]

I use a full spectrum CFL bulb, E28 fitting, alongside my heat lamps, doesnt add any extra heat at all; if anyone is looking for a simple solution to add alongside their heat lamps.

I'm not a fan of tubes tbh, I wouldnt trust my Sav not to try and climb one (ie rip it off the wall, break it and breath in lots of mercury and phosphorus!), he doesnt pay any attention to the CFL, i think because it is next to the heat lamps, which are very hot, and he knows it

Considering a monitor's resilience, I think the fact that they can survive into old age without UV, is something which should be considered with caution, given that there hasnt been a proper scientific study into the topic - however, there has been a study which has shown that UV does affect positively, the level of D3, in Varanids with a (controlled) deficiency of the vitamin...i posted the link up some time ago in another thread, will find it again if anyones interested or cant find it in search.

I dont think we should we consider all varanids to react in the same way to UV either, given their wide habitat distribution and evolutionary age, there is no reason to think they havent each evolved their own adaptions to it

[murrindindi]

Considering a monitor's resilience, I think the fact that they can survive into old age without UV, is something which should be considered with caution, given that there hasnt been a proper scientific study into the topic - however, there has been a study which has shown that UV does affect positively, the level of D3, in Varanids with a (controlled) deficiency of the vitamin...i posted the link up some time ago in another thread, will find it again if anyones interested or cant find it in search.

I dont think we should we consider all varanids to react in the same way to UV either, given their wide habitat distribution and evolutionary age, there is no reason to think they havent each evolved their own adaptions to it

Hi, I`d like to see the article you mention (thanks).
As far as studies being carried on captive Varanids kept under "optimum" conditions for extended periods as we now understand those to be, I don`t think there are any?

[formica]

i think this is it: http://varanidae.org/1_2-Current_Research.pdf ...its only the preliminary, i dont know what they found by the end of the study, cant find anything further

Deprivation of all sources of vitamin D3
resulted in an average of 30% depletion of circulating calcidiol
in approximately two months.

A single dose of dietary vitamin D3
or UVB resulted in a significant peak of increase in calcidiol at an
average of seven days with return to baseline in an average of 14 days.


(error in my previous post, wasnt D3 that was directly measured, a metabolite of D3 was measured, calicidiol)

[murrindindi]

I did have an article but I think I sent it to someone, the title was something like "Update on vitamin D3 in basking Lizards", I`m not sure it`s available to view online, it concerned a Komodo dragon (or several) which had not had access to real or artificial UVB for some time, they found after exposure to an MVB (I think?) for around 3 months the D3 levels compared to those of wild komodoensis (they were in single figures prior to exposure). The "problem" with this study (possibly others at that time) is that this was well before current practices re temps, humidity, etc were in place, that would undoubtably effect the results, because the monitor`s didn`t have sufficient basking temps and perhaps an "inferior" diet.
Edit: This is the article, it HAS been published, as I say I used to have a copy...

1) Allen, M.E., M.F. Hoilck, M. Bush, O.T. Oftedal, R. Rosscoe, and
T. Walsh.
An update on vitamin D and ultraviolet light in basking lizards.
Unpublished data. 4 pp

[formica]

Yeah I saw that one while searching, havent had a chance to read thru it yet, i did notice it was only a few animals, the topic really needs a wider data set (as has been done for bearded dragons with clear conclusions)

insectivores are generally known to be much more efficient at using UV, than carnivores, and therefore it is generally a more important componant; monitors eating both, does throw up interesting questions, livers are full of nutriants including Vit D3 - would be good to find out what happened with the study as it progressed, they asked some interesting questions which really do need answers, considering how polarized the topic is

[mdfmonitor]

Not keen on cfl bulbs, had a day light one set high in the roof of an old cage & the heat damaged the casing!! fell apart, also i've had at least 3 mercury vapours go ping because they couldn't hack the humidity.

There's some heat generated when you start putting a number of bulbs together, that's why you need a sealed viv it creates it's own exchange of air from hot to cooler temps, which reduces you humidity around the basking bulbs.

As for vitd, i was always told give them 130f plus (depending on size) & this will allow them to digest the food & process the vit d, you can control the vitd using uvb light but you still need high basking spot floods to digest the food.

When the monitor starts getting larger you need some bulbs & wattage to cover snout to vent, ad in other lights your just upping the burn off of humidity.

160f is a good basking spot flood to aim for & if Krusty & Frank & other long term keepers say you don't need it but use it if you want to,that will do me!!
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00030-20.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00030-20.jpg.html)

[smy_749]

I would like to keep this conversation going, some good info in here so far. Anyways, as for my experiment, I think I've ruined it. I changed all furnishings and design of the enclosure, and tomorrow I'm introducing a new female. So I don't exactly have a control anymore :/

[formica]

Not keen on cfl bulbs, had a day light one set high in the roof of an old cage & the heat damaged the casing!! fell apart, also i've had at least 3 mercury vapours go ping because they couldn't hack the humidity.

There's some heat generated when you start putting a number of bulbs together, that's why you need a sealed viv it creates it's own exchange of air from hot to cooler temps, which reduces you humidity around the basking bulbs.

As for vitd, i was always told give them 130f plus (depending on size) & this will allow them to digest the food & process the vit d, you can control the vitd using uvb light but you still need high basking spot floods to digest the food.

When the monitor starts getting larger you need some bulbs & wattage to cover snout to vent, ad in other lights your just upping the burn off of humidity.

160f is a good basking spot flood to aim for & if Krusty & Frank & other long term keepers say you don't need it but use it if you want to,that will do me!!
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00030-20.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00030-20.jpg.html)

Yep, Kidneys process D3 into Calcitriol, its a vital process, and going by the apparent connection between low basking temps and kidney failure (and calcification? bilateral tumours? i wonder what results have come up on mojo), temps are clearly an important factor, but it requires Vitamin D3 to be in the system first, either via diet, or UV, or possibly both


it has been quite a long time since I came across a heat damaged CFL casing, some years ago it was common to find burnt/brittle/cracked casings, even from their own heat, unsuitable plastic in early designs i think, not come across the issue recently


I would like to keep this conversation going, some good info in here so far. Anyways, as for my experiment, I think I've ruined it. I changed all furnishings and design of the enclosure, and tomorrow I'm introducing a new female. So I don't exactly have a control anymore :/

still some observations to be had tho!

[B_Aller]

I would like to keep this conversation going, some good info in here so far.
I'll add my 2 cents then.
I don't use any UVB or supplementation of any kind at all, ever.
My animals have set longevity and reproduction records for their species.

I feel strongly that most of the UVB bulbs and supplements are garbage, I've never seen any benefit for my animals personally.
Sure, when I first started in '93 I bought and used Vita lites, then repti-suns then a handful of other types, metal halide, High pressure sodium, all that. I also used supplements.... repti-cal and whatever that one with the frilled dragon on the label was Ket something or other.....?
But..as I progressed and learned what was truly important and actually benefiting the animals all that nonsense fell by the wayside. I learned that big temp gradients, deep substrate of the proper type, larger enclosures with better humidity gradients and a whole bodied natural prey based diet with some variety was WAY more important than any cheap arsed bulb or dusty white powder.
Once you gain some experinence and trust in yourself and the animals you find that just plain hard work, common sense and observation will serve you much better than anything mass produced and packaged with a reptile in the logo.
I've never heard of a true long term varanid keeper who uses UVB or supplements.
Best.

[murrindindi]

Hi Ben, I agree with almost everything you say except "there are no true long term Varanid keepers using UVB or supplements". I seem to remember Mr. F. Retes mentioning that he has/does offer some of his pygmy monitors (gravid females) supplementary calcium at times (I hope I`m not mistaken in either that he does, or including him in "true long term keepers")!? ;)

[jarich]

I find it interesting that this is still a contentious issue. The argument seems to be that if you can see it, it has an effect, but if you cant, then it has no effect. I must be in the minority as I cant seem to visualize the chemistry of my monitors blood. ;)

There is now a vast wealth of knowledge about Vit D synthesis and its effects on health, and how light and nutrition effects this cycle. That wealth of knowledge is quite plain. For all animals that can synthesize Vit D in their skin from UV exposure, they all gain health benefits from said exposure. Monitors skin synthesizes Vit D (as does snake skin by the way), therefore to remain at optimal health they require UV exposure. Supplements can help increase these levels, but much, much less so and with their own very real dangers. I agree with Ben that supplements are never the best way forward.

However, saying that you have monitors that are older or have reproduced is not proof when speaking about serum metabolite levels. This is not necessarily a difference of life or death, but merely that of optimal health vs sub optimal health. For instance, we Western humans are almost universally Vit D deficient, however, we still procreate generations down the line and can live to be quite old. Does that mean we arent still Vit D deficient and affected by that deficiency in our health? Absolutely not. The effects of Vit D deficiency are not always visible, (though sometimes they are) since it is a hormone that affects many systems in the body, sometimes in subtle ways. They are not direct effects you would even necessarily know to attach to this cycle. However, they absolutely still have an effect.

With advances in reptile lighting, while still no substitute for natural sunlight, it makes this exposure quite simple. Studies have shown its not even a huge amount of exposure they need. In fact, if you have the option of allowing them outside for the summer months on a regular basis, this is likely enough to keep their levels up year round. Vit D metabolite levels seem to hold steady for about 3 months after exposure in reptiles and only slowly drop after that. So to me its a no brainer. Its easy to provide and it has health benefits, even if I cant see them. So why not provide them? Why argue against it?

[B_Aller]

I wasn't aware that Frank used supplements, I don't follow his writing(ranting) so I probably shouldn't have made such a sweeping generalization.I'll say the longterm keepers that I know don't use supplements.

For jarich,
While it may be a certainty that humans and captive varanids are VitD deficient, I have not seen or read of any actual benefits from even the latest reptile bulbs. From what I understand even under optimum conditions 6 months under the best lights is equal to less than 15 min of natural sunlight exposure. I prefer to focus on the common sense husbandry areas that my personal experience has shown me to be more important and relevant than expensive bulbs and powders. I'm not saying don't YOU do it, just that I don't use them. Usually when the focus is on fancy lights and vitamin powders the animals show sub optimal health...that I can see, have seen and continue to see. What I don't see much of is the basic hard work of varanid husbandry. What I don't get is why I should be worried about a problem I don't have? I don't use supplements or UVB and I'm not having health issues or reproductive problems with my animals. If I start having problems I will certainly look into what I can do to improve the lives of my captives, including blood work if necessary, as I have done in the past. . Until I see the need I will continue to focus on what I see as important, too me that does not include UVB, supplements, or blood work.
Thanks.

[murrindindi]

I find it interesting that this is still a contentious issue. The argument seems to be that if you can see it, it has an effect, but if you cant, then it has no effect. I must be in the minority as I cant seem to visualize the chemistry of my monitors blood. ;)

For all animals that can synthesize Vit D in their skin from UV exposure, they all gain health benefits from said exposure. Monitors skin synthesizes Vit D (as does snake skin by the way), therefore to remain at optimal health they require UV exposure.
With advances in reptile lighting, while still no substitute for natural sunlight, it makes this exposure quite simple. Studies have shown its not even a huge amount of exposure they need. In fact, if you have the option of allowing them outside for the summer months on a regular basis, this is likely enough to keep their levels up year round. Vit D metabolite levels seem to hold steady for about 3 months after exposure in reptiles and only slowly drop after that. So to me its a no brainer. Its easy to provide and it has health benefits, even if I cant see them. So why not provide them? Why argue against it?

Hi Josh,
I`d like to ask these questions: Which studies have been completed on Varanids kept for relatively long periods (for the sake of argument 10 years +, which is certainly enough time have a detrimental effect on health if there is one), in what some of us now consider minimum supportive conditions (sufficient ambient and basking temps, a "proper" humidity range, nutritious whole prey diet, relatively deep substrate etc, etc)?
I somewhat disagree when you assert they NEED it to remain in "optimal" health if kept as descibed? How many have you raised from hatchling to the above age and over, kept under the above conditions with or without UVB or supplementation and had tested to note any difference?

Are some/most/all captive and mainly nocturnal snakes deficient in their levels too (not in optimal health), if artificial/real UVB or supplementation aren`t provided?
Though it must be said that it`s doubtful the overwhelming majority of keepers actually bother to have them tested, do you have any info on similar studies in these animals?
As per usual, I`m only asking because I love to learn more.... :)

[smy_749]

Just a question that occured to me for Ben, if the bulbs are garbage, have you tried raising up any species which 'require' the bulbs like water dragons or Ctenosaurus for example without any negative effects?

[formica]

There is evidence, as outlined in (both) the studies previously posted, that UV lights stabilizes and improves Vitamin D bio-availability in monitors with a controlled deficiency.

While of course it is important for people to state their entirly valid observations, without actual control and scientific study, it is anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence should not be given precedence over actual data - and the data does suggest, that monitors make use of UV, how beneficial it is, is something that needs to be studied properly so that this discussion doesnt just keep going round in circles.

[jarich]

I wasn't aware that Frank used supplements, I don't follow his writing(ranting) so I probably shouldn't have made such a sweeping generalization.I'll say the longterm keepers that I know don't use supplements.

For jarich,
While it may be a certainty that humans and captive varanids are VitD deficient, I have not seen or read of any actual benefits from even the latest reptile bulbs. From what I understand even under optimum conditions 6 months under the best lights is equal to less than 15 min of natural sunlight exposure. I prefer to focus on the common sense husbandry areas that my personal experience has shown me to be more important and relevant than expensive bulbs and powders. I'm not saying don't YOU do it, just that I don't use them. Usually when the focus is on fancy lights and vitamin powders the animals show sub optimal health...that I can see, have seen and continue to see. What I don't see much of is the basic hard work of varanid husbandry. What I don't get is why I should be worried about a problem I don't have? I don't use supplements or UVB and I'm not having health issues or reproductive problems with my animals. If I start having problems I will certainly look into what I can do to improve the lives of my captives, including blood work if necessary, as I have done in the past. . Until I see the need I will continue to focus on what I see as important, too me that does not include UVB, supplements, or blood work.
Thanks.

Hi Ben,

First, let me say I follow your breeding of these beautiful creatures and know youre very experienced. Im not trying to question your abilities in that regard or say you are by any means a bad keeper. That would obviously be a stupid thing to say. Im merely saying that this is a way of adding to our level of care for these very complex animals that doesnt seem to be standard yet and the arguments against it seem to be very lacking, scientifically speaking.

If you have not read of any benefits from UVB lights, I guess my question would be then, what are you reading? Any recent studies on UV exposure in reptiles, even from old technology, would show you that there is benefit from UVB exposure. Past technology provided less UV exposure than our present bulbs do, but just because its not as good as the sun doesnt mean it doesnt have some positive effects.

Granted its not natural sunlight, but then I didnt think that monitor husbandry was an 'all or nothing' type of thing. If I cant give my savannah a diet of giant tobacco crickets and millipedes should I just feed it nothing? Of course not, what I feed it is the best I can give them. I continue to research that and other parameters to know more and get better at it. No matter how healthy it appears to be, it will never be perfect, so I will never stop researching and trying to get better at caring for them. It does not mean that the extra lights I give them limit the food I feed them, or that the food I feed them limits my soil depth, or that the soil depth I give them limits the basking temperatures I offer. It is cumulative. I think that all in this thread would pretty much agree on the basic parameters of monitor enclosures as we know them now. This lighting is in addition to that, not detracting from it. I think it is unfair to suggest that by focusing on additional lighting, one must necessarily be lacking in other areas of care.

As for the comparison of the best lights to 15 minutes sun exposure, I dont know that Ive ever seen any way to quantify that exactly. Studies I have seen indicate that even just 2 hours a day of direct sunlight exposure bring Vit D metabolite levels up to natural levels in captive monitors. So if someone has the option of exposing their monitors to this amount per day, the UVB lights specifically seem like they may not be necessary. I dont know many keepers who have that option though, (I certainly dont, unfortunately) so we must work with what we have to provide as best we can.

Im not saying you should be worried about a problem you dont have. Im saying you should be aware of a problem you dont know exists, even if it is too subtle for you to see. Captivity without UVB exposure lowers their Vit D metabolite levels. There is no question of this. To answer your question Stefan, every valid study I have ever read on reptiles kept without UVB showed lowered Vit D levels compared to wild caught specimens tested. While its true that there arent huge number of them, the unanimity of it is telling. It also doesnt take ten years to show up, it takes months. Test every animal you have that is not exposed to a UVB source, they will be Vit D deficient. Since we know Vit D affects a wide range of systems like digestion, immunity, learning, etc the question is, why dont you want to look at how to bring those levels back up to natural ones? What possible reason could there be not to try?

[mdfmonitor]

Nice one Wayne!! (pic)

I would like to know that this study of uv lights etc who's monitors was it carried out on, zoos usually take blood tests regularly & i'm not sure that the ones that rely on human generated lighting are as fit as some of the wild monitors or captive monitors been offered 160f basking sites & good background temps.

I'm sure this would make a difference on the result, there's no way i could take blood tests off my Lenny without stressing the hell out of him & upsetting his routines etc.

I can only offer short time results, but taking a 16" argus monitor to over 4 foot in 8 months with no uv exposure most tell you something, i do use vitd & pure calcium on & off depending on growth rate. Many good experience reliable keepers have told me provide a good basking site & you won't have a problem!!

Now for food, food is mass produced nowadays & power fed to make them efficient for business purposes, with this in mind i wouldn't dare stop feeding added vitamins to my argus. I do use natural food, but even trout is forced grown to make them cheaper to produce.

I just don't think they are as good quality food as animals/fish grown at a natural speed.

but again if you can fit uv in & want it crack on with it!! :)

[StudentoReptile]

[Sorry for posting a little late in the thread...was in the hospital for 2 days].

Regarding artificial UV lighting...someone mentioned certain bulbs were harmful to certain reptiles. I'll describe what I know below:

Compact Florrescent bulbs (both "spiral-shaped" and "U-shaped") or CFBs - These bulbs are commonly offered by Exo Terra, ZooMed and Zilla. They also come in 3 main intensity ranges: 2.0, 5.0 and 10.0.

There have been alleged (meaning I have yet to see the actual text myself - only heard about them secondhand) studies that show these bulbs have caused blindness in bearded dragons. I do not know which agency did the study, which brand bulb, which intensity (2.0, or 5.0?), or if they included other reptile species. So one could take what I just described with a grain of salt.

However, I can attest that other tortoise keepers as well as myself have personally witnessed temporary blindness on our tortoises, using both 5.0 and 10.0 bulbs of various brands, and regardless of how the bulb was mounted. [NOTE: studies have shown that CFBs are to be mounted horizontally in a specifically-designed fixture for maximum and most efficient UV emission and not to be mounted in a traditional dome fixture.

Standard Tube Florescent bulbs (tube bulbs) - also in various brands, and come in 2.0, 5.0 and 10.0. Oldies but goodies. Very few issues reported with these bulbs, the most common one being a short lifespan; about 6 months. The advantage is that they can over a wide area over the enclosure.

T-5 "thin" Tube Florescent Bulbs - same as the standard tubes, but thinner, and a little more efficient and a little more intense. I had personally witnessed my own tortoises going blind with 5.0 and 10.0 with one of these, so I would use caution. They reportedly have a longer lifespan than standard tubes as well.

Mercury Vapor Bulbs - The two-in-one heat and UV bulb! This is a two-edged sword, as you have to find the right spot to mount to achieve the right temperature for basking and still let the animal get adequate UV, because it still only produces a focused "beam" of heat and UV, and is not widespread all over the enclosure. These traditionally only come in high wattages, 125 and 160 watts, so use a temp gun when using one. I suggest only for small desert lizards like, ackies, beardies, Uros, plated lizards and juvenile monitors. I would not recommend for larger animals or tortoises.
------
Here is the site where I got most of the above info from: UV Guide UK - Ultraviolet Light for Reptiles - UVB reptile lighting on test (http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm)

I can try and dig up a cool thread from a tortoise site that had some cool pics from thermal images on basking tortoises using different lighting situations, later.

[murrindindi]

Mercury Vapor Bulbs - The two-in-one heat and UV bulb! This is a two-edged sword, as you have to find the right spot to mount to achieve the right temperature for basking and still let the animal get adequate UV, because it still only produces a focused "beam" of heat and UV, and is not widespread all over the enclosure. These traditionally only come in high wattages, 125 and 160 watts, so use a temp gun when using one. I suggest only for small desert lizards like, ackies, beardies, Uros, plated lizards and juvenile monitors. I would not recommend for larger animals or tortoises.
------
I can try and dig up a cool thread from a tortoise site that had some cool pics from thermal images on basking tortoises using different lighting situations, later.

Hi, the quality of the MVB`s varies considerably, some don`t come close the manufacturers claims as far as UVB is concerned (Arcadia and Mega Ray are very good).
For your info, and anyone else who may be interested; MVB`s such as "Powersun", have a beam radius of around 75cm (30 inches), so CAN be used with larger animals as it is NOT a focused (tight) beam as in a spot" bulb. The most important point is to make sure they are the minimum distance away, and in a large enough enclosure. The fact that the UVB doesn`t cover the whole enclosure is not a problem at all, they get the benefits of the UVB irradiation while basking:
The only bulbs that come close to natural unfiltered sunlight are the metal halides....

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7146/6826638251_c2c7a45d86_z.jpg

[V87]

Nice one Wayne!! (pic)

I would like to know that this study of uv lights etc who's monitors was it carried out on, zoos usually take blood tests regularly & i'm not sure that the ones that rely on human generated lighting are as fit as some of the wild monitors or captive monitors been offered 160f basking sites & good background temps.

I'm sure this would make a difference on the result, there's no way i could take blood tests off my Lenny without stressing the hell out of him & upsetting his routines etc.

I can only offer short time results, but taking a 16" argus monitor to over 4 foot in 8 months with no uv exposure most tell you something, i do use vitd & pure calcium on & off depending on growth rate. Many good experience reliable keepers have told me provide a good basking site & you won't have a problem!!

Now for food, food is mass produced nowadays & power fed to make them efficient for business purposes, with this in mind i wouldn't dare stop feeding added vitamins to my argus. I do use natural food, but even trout is forced grown to make them cheaper to produce.

I just don't think they are as good quality food as animals/fish grown at a natural speed.

but again if you can fit uv in & want it crack on with it!! :)

I knw one zoo doing blood tests for there monitors in co ordination with the t5 super zoo to see wether it makes a difference or not ...

They are also doing uv field studies out in komodo ...

[mdfmonitor]

I've just gone through a number of monitor lizards vids of monitors in different zoos around the world.

I've seen 1 zoo in France where it looked like a proper basking spot was provide to a decent sized monitor.

Most the vids showed uv bulbs provided as the basking bulbs.

A few more vids had croc monitors, where the basking light covered a very small amount of the body, maybe a third allow for the light you can't see.

they walked round like a tortoise ( no offence tortoise owners) monitors have a certain attitude in their walk when they are heated right!!

hope you don't mind Dave, but your monitor shows the power/attitude in the walk perfectly>
Jurassic apartment - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoZtsaZ5kYU)

[jarich]

I knw one zoo doing blood tests for there monitors in co ordination with the t5 super zoo to see wether it makes a difference or not ...

They are also doing uv field studies out in komodo ...

Very much looking forward to these results, though I don't think they will be any surprise.

[Pirarucu]

I knw one zoo doing blood tests for there monitors in co ordination with the t5 super zoo to see wether it makes a difference or not ...

They are also doing uv field studies out in komodo ...The London Zoo, I assume? I'll be interested to see that, though I would agree with Jarich that I don't think they will be surprising results.

[MizCandice]

Not used it yet, very hard to fit a UVB bulb in & still achieve 160f basking surface temp & not over heat the run. I prefer a good hot basking spot covering snout to vent myself, if enclosure was twice as big 10x10 then it would be in regardless of needing it.

Black tape is the compare line, bottom right bottom pic. April 7th till around Nov 1st (2nd pic) :)
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00033-20.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00033-20.jpg.html)
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00013-13.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00013-13.jpg.html)

Adorable :P .. Im curious to see the end result and compiled data after the experiments

[V87]

Very much looking forward to these results, though I don't think they will be any surprise.

The London Zoo, I assume? I'll be interested to see that, though I would agree with Jarich that I don't think they will be surprising results.

It would be that very same zoo you speak of ...

Depending on what side of the fence you sit ...I think my side of the fence will be shocked at how right people have been about uv and it's uses and that it may be fundamental for development and health

[murrindindi]

I think my side of the fence will be shocked at how right people have been about uv and it's uses and that it may be fundamental for development and health


Ooooooooh, now that`s what I call putting yourself right in the line of fire...... :D

[V87]

Ooooooooh, now that`s what I call putting yourself right in the line of fire...... :D

It could be painful but I'm willing to take my chances ....:D

Or I will disappear into the a puff of smoke and never show my face again ... For shame for shame lol

[infernalis]

Well people, time for another turnaround with the thought train.

I have been doing some research into using Metal Halide lamps in my basking array, and the pros all outweigh the cons.

I brought up the idea within the "scientific community" and the replies were overwhelming in favor of using them because...

a. closely copies natural sunlight, in both UVA & UVB output
b. higher lumens to wattage ratio (brighter light cage)
c. energy efficiency of plasma discharge lighting
d. cost effective if I wire my own ballasts.

One quote that sticks out....

http://www.varanuspark.com/bryan/fry.jpg

[mdfmonitor]

Well people, time for another turnaround with the thought train.

I have been doing some research into using Metal Halide lamps in my basking array, and the pros all outweigh the cons.

I brought up the idea within the "scientific community" and the replies were overwhelming in favor of using them because...

a. closely copies natural sunlight, in both UVA & UVB output
b. higher lumens to wattage ratio (brighter light cage)
c. energy efficiency of plasma discharge lighting
d. cost effective if I wire my own ballasts.

One quote that sticks out....

http://www.varanuspark.com/bryan/fry.jpg

Wayne stick it in if you want it!! i've just been looking tonight to see if there's room for something in my set-up.

The big debate has always been can you grow & breed monitors without uv/uv bulbs etc, many long term keepers have & still are.

The study that the zoos are doing needs take into account the different methods that current private keepers & zoos are using, as in hot basking temps (i know B.Fry uses hot basking spots) along with uv & without among the same species of monitors.

I'm not sure what i can put in my set up that's worth using that won't over heat the viv & effect the hot basking spot & won't blow again due to the high humidity.

lets us know what you use if you do use something!!

[Akuma223]

Well people, time for another turnaround with the thought train.

I have been doing some research into using Metal Halide lamps in my basking array, and the pros all outweigh the cons.

I brought up the idea within the "scientific community" and the replies were overwhelming in favor of using them because...

a. closely copies natural sunlight, in both UVA & UVB output
b. higher lumens to wattage ratio (brighter light cage)
c. energy efficiency of plasma discharge lighting
d. cost effective if I wire my own ballasts.

One quote that sticks out....

http://www.varanuspark.com/bryan/fry.jpg
So then It would be good to start adding some sort of uvb now? So what wattage should these halide lamps be at? If they are so beneficial I would like to get them as soon as possible.

[infernalis]

So then It would be good to start adding some sort of uvb now? So what wattage should these halide lamps be at? If they are so beneficial I would like to get them as soon as possible.

If you buy one from a reptile shop, about $200 per light.

Wired up myself from scratch, about $50 per light.

Not just UVB, Halide lamps produce UVA & UVB along with a lot of usable light & heat.

[infernalis]

Very much looking forward to these results, though I don't think they will be any surprise.

Considering what Bryan said, and knowing that he keeps Varanids and has his own lab at his disposal, I can't help but trust his immunity/white cell count observation.

Also, metal halide lamps have 5 times the lumen output for the same wattage.... so adding only 1 bulb would be like adding 5 more lights, replacing 2 lamps would give as much light as having 10 basking lamps!!

[formica]

very interesting re the white cell count - are there any specifics on which types are boosted? is there a paper available somewhere

not surprising anyway, organisms evolve to make use of every part of their environment and its natural cycles.

[Lankyrob]

Are these halide lamps what i woukd call a MVB ( mercury vapour bulb)

[formica]

mercury vapour lamp is a type of metal halide lamp

[infernalis]

mercury vapour lamp is a type of metal halide lamp

You have that backward, mercury vapour lamps were invented 30 years prior to metal halide lamps.

A mercury vapour lamp has no halides (metal salts) in the plasma arc tube, Metal halide lamps are mercury vapour lamps with an additional metal salt compound (halides) added to the amalgam to broaden the spectral output.

One of the factors that caused experimentation with the arc tube contents was that a raw mercury vapour lamp output very high UV that would be harmful to stare into the bulb for any length of time, The first solution was to coat the glass envelope (outer bulb) with a UV reactive phosphor, that's how modern day florescent bulbs were born... the main difference between a florescent bulb and a mercury vapour bulb is the gas pressure inside the lamp. A MV lamp has very high pressure inside the arc tube, and generates such an intense heat that the amalgam must be contained in a quartz tube as the temperatures achieved in operation will melt standard silica glass, the low pressure content of a florescent lamp generates far less heat, so standard glass works fine.

However, the phosphor coatings were inefficient compared to doping the mercury itself, this is why we almost never see a frosty white coating on a metal halide lamp, but almost always see a frosty white coating on mercury vapour lamps.

From a manufacturing standpoint it's cheaper to make the metal halide lamps, a minuscule grain of halide salt is a lot cheaper than a whole coating of phosphorescent materials, and less harmful to the environment when the lamp is no longer usable.

[formica]

You have that backward, mercury vapour lamps were invented 30 years prior to metal halide lamps.

A mercury vapour lamp has no halides (metal salts) in the plasma arc tube, Metal halide lamps are mercury vapour lamps with an additional metal salt compound (halides) added to the amalgam to broaden the spectral output.

One of the factors that caused experimentation with the arc tube contents was that a raw mercury vapour lamp output very high UV that would be harmful to stare into the bulb for any length of time, The first solution was to coat the glass envelope (outer bulb) with a UV reactive phosphor, that's how modern day florescent bulbs were born... the main difference between a florescent bulb and a mercury vapour bulb is the gas pressure inside the lamp. A MV lamp has very high pressure inside the arc tube, and generates such an intense heat that the amalgam must be contained in a quartz tube as the temperatures achieved in operation will melt standard silica glass, the low pressure content of a florescent lamp generates far less heat, so standard glass works fine.

However, the phosphor coatings were inefficient compared to doping the mercury itself, this is why we almost never see a frosty white coating on a metal halide lamp, but almost always see a frosty white coating on mercury vapour lamps.

From a manufacturing standpoint it's cheaper to make the metal halide lamps, a minuscule grain of halide salt is a lot cheaper than a whole coating of phosphorescent materials, and less harmful to the environment when the lamp is no longer usable.

I see interesting - i think perhaps I have been mis-sold a halide lamp as a mercury vapour, I have one which has Xenon mentioned in the specs, and is clear glass, but I bought it as a mercury vapour, turned out to be useless in my paludarium (no growth whatsoever) and I switched it out for 6000K LED's, always wondered why!

[infernalis]

The easiest telltale sign is that a mercury vapour lamp will have a clear arc tube, a metal halide will have white ends on it.

[murrindindi]

These are a few that are available currently in the U.K...


Metal Halide Bulbs - Reptile Lighting - Blue Lizard Reptiles - Reptile Shop (http://uk.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=AwrSbjS678ZSh3gAA7BLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTE1Z3Y0a2w 5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRVVLMzlfO DU-/SIG=12o048d1r/EXP=1388798010/**http%3a//www.bluelizardreptiles.co.uk/reptilelighting/metalhalidebulbs)

As already stated, they are the closest thing to natural unfiltered sunlight at the present time. I know London Zoo were intending to install metal halides in all the diurnal basking reptiles enclosures (info from Dr. Richard Gibson, former curator of reptiles at that establishment), though I haven`t visited for several years so not sure if they`ve actually done so?
I don`t doubt Bryan Grieg Fry`s thoughts for one moment, but I`d be interested to hear whether tests have been carried out on captive Varanids kept under what`s now considered "fully supportive" conditions in order to compare the results (I suspect there haven`t been too many at all)?
EDIT: For Wayne: That was a very informative reply about the differences between metal halides and mercury vapour bulbs. Unfortunately, no smilies available yet, including the "thumbs up".... So Thumbs up, and thanks from me!!

[formica]

surely there must have been a control, in order to be able to say that it has a positive influence on white cell counts, thats pretty basic scientific process...

[murrindindi]

surely there must have been a control, in order to be able to say that it has a positive influence on white cell counts, thats pretty basic scientific process...

I think you misunderstood what I was asking; there ARE articles re UVB exposure and captive Varanids, but they were not all carried out on animals we now consider to have been properly supported to make comparisons between those with access to real or artificial sunlight and those without but offered "proper" basking temps, humidity, whole prey diets, etc, etc (or maybe I`ve missed them)?

[formica]

I think you misunderstood what I was asking; there ARE articles re UVB exposure and captive Varanids, but they were not all carried out on animals we now consider to have been properly supported to make comparisons between those with access to real or artificial sunlight and those without but offered "proper" basking temps, humidity, whole prey diets, etc, etc (or maybe I`ve missed them)?

not seen any reference to basking temps in either of the papers i've read on the subject (both in this thread) - I hope that the ( http://varanidae.org/1_2-Current_Research.pdf ) research is completed/published sometime soon, its been a few years now...perhaps they will include that information

[mdfmonitor]

I think you misunderstood what I was asking; there ARE articles re UVB exposure and captive Varanids, but they were not all carried out on animals we now consider to have been properly supported to make comparisons between those with access to real or artificial sunlight and those without but offered "proper" basking temps, humidity, whole prey diets, etc, etc (or maybe I`ve missed them)?
That's what i was thinking, nicely put!

Also taking blood regularly does that not stess them? or do they get use to been grabbed & blood taken every few weeks?? i wonder what effect that has on ther chemistry?

[murrindindi]

Only the abstract from a paper published in 2009 (not sure when the actual study was done?), but even at that time many zoos did not offer what we now know are "supportive" conditions. Some interesting info re offering some rodents in the diet as well as supplements to other (invert) prey.
Cookies Required - CAB Direct (http://uk.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0SO81_ihMhSozEA3TlLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTE1Z3Y0a2w 5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRVVLMzlfO DU-/SIG=127utl9d1/EXP=1388901730/**http%3a//www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103230517.html)

[V87]

This is a good read for those interested UVB and UVA are very important

http://www.ivis.org/journals/exoticDVM/9-3/Brames.pdf


Sorry if it has been posted before

[infernalis]

I have always been very careful about what I say in the UV dabate discussions, But I have made up my mind that I'm going to be more pro-uv anymore.

It's only common sense, the UV index in the tropics is unreal compared to anywhere else in the world (excluding the poles) how can anyone say these animal's are not getting UV in the wild...?

http://www.varanuspark.com/oz/8.jpg

[V87]

I have always been very careful about what I say in the UV dabate discussions, But I have made up my mind that I'm going to be more pro-uv anymore.

It's only common sense, the UV index in the tropics is unreal compared to anywhere else in the world (excluding the poles) how can anyone say these animal's are not getting UV in the wild...?

http://www.varanuspark.com/oz/8.jpg

All animals get it .... Just wether they NEED it ....

IMO they do ....

[mdfmonitor]

Just put a couple of compact uvb bulbs in this am on one side, need a daylight bulb to hide some of the green light though!

[infernalis]

All animals get it .... Just wether they NEED it ....

IMO they do .... I concur :)

Millions of years of evolution, diurnal animals living and thriving under a strong sun, ..

I'd say it's a huge mistake to deny them.

[B_Aller]

I concur :)

Millions of years of evolution, diurnal animals living and thriving under a strong sun, ..

I'd say it's a huge mistake to deny them.

To me the question is..Does the effort and money spent on these bulbs ACTUALLY translate into healthier animals. We're still talking man made UV bulbs that only provide a tiny fraction of the beneficial elements of the sun.
To me there are more important factors in the lives of most captives. I personally would rather spend my money and time providing larger more useful enclosures than dropping hundreds or thousands a year on questionable bulbs.
I don't deny that the animals obviously have evolved to utilize UV, for me, I have not seen positive results from these bulbs, only from better overall conditions for the animals. The problem is that many will slap a bulb in a shite enclosure and feel like they have it covered. Again, none of the long term breeders that I hang with bother to use any of these bulbs, yet are more successful overall than those who do use them.
I've used many of the available UV bulbs and have never seen any noticeable difference in my animals health, coloration, appetite or behavior, so I stopped worrying or thinking about them long ago. Just my 2 cents.
Best.

[formica]

I concur :)

Millions of years of evolution, diurnal animals living and thriving under a strong sun, ..

I'd say it's a huge mistake to deny them.

I think there's allot we can learn from paying attention to the environments that animals have adapted to, we already understand that even our best attempts at producing the best climate for (any captive reptile), is far from what their physiology is adapted to work with.

Considering how much monitors seem to be able to absorb the inadequacies of their captive environments, it doesn't surprise me that some can appear to do well without UV - but, we have no way to know how the monitor is actually feeling

Pain, Fatigue and Stress, when endured for a long peroid of time, even at very low levels, can have massively adverse affects on quality of life, in humans there are recognized conditions (eg Chronic Fatigue), which can have horrible effects on people, even tho the pain and fatigue which is experienced is a relatively low level (compared to say a broken leg), and life seems to go on as normal to anyone viewing from the outside.

The fact that white blood cell counts are found to be higher, is a very good indicator that those monitors in question could be ''feeling'' much better than those with lower levels - it is well know that depression in humans and many other animals, results in a reduced immune response and lower white cell counts, such links between psychology and physiology are frequently found to work in both directions

Even if our attempt at providing correct UV levels fails to meet the level found in the wild, I see no reason not to try and work with what we have, and make every effort to improve their living conditions, no matter how small those changes may appear

....give it another 5 years, and I feel certain that LED technology will have developed far enough to do an even better job than halides (probably sooner, UVA LED's already exist at low prices, UVB are falling steadly, although still >300$ per W), 10 years and we can probably simulate a true African savannah sun, with a little luck, some of our animals may still be around to benefit from it.

[V87]

To me the question is..Does the effort and money spent on these bulbs ACTUALLY translate into healthier animals. We're still talking man made UV bulbs that only provide a tiny fraction of the beneficial elements of the sun.
To me there are more important factors in the lives of most captives. I personally would rather spend my money and time providing larger more useful enclosures than dropping hundreds or thousands a year on questionable bulbs.
I don't deny that the animals obviously have evolved to utilize UV, for me, I have not seen positive results from these bulbs, only from better overall conditions for the animals. The problem is that many will slap a bulb in a shite enclosure and feel like they have it covered. Again, none of the long term breeders that I hang with bother to use any of these bulbs, yet are more successful overall than those who do use them.
I've used many of the available UV bulbs and have never seen any noticeable difference in my animals health, coloration, appetite or behavior, so I stopped worrying or thinking about them long ago. Just my 2 cents.
Best.

But if you are giving the correct husbandry ... And you have a large enclosure ...

And If these bulbs give any benefit then why not .....

They are not a miracle cure for everything no but any advantage is an advantage ...

We all knw that many monitors will breed in a tiny rub but this does not make them healthy not saying a UVB or UVA bulb will but it will help .... As will a large enclosure so if you can provide both for the better keepers with already good husbandry is this not something you want to add as a bonus to your captive animals .... ?

IMO I feel your statement to be old school and becoming out dated ... Just saying its sounds like you don't want to see the positives rather than them not being there

If it has but one advantage ... Why not have it ?

[murrindindi]

Just put a couple of compact uvb bulbs in this am on one side, need a daylight bulb to hide some of the green light though!

Hi Mark, there were problems with some of the compact UVB bulbs a few years ago, partly because they were positioned too close to the animal, also, they weren`t all very effective.
Here`s some info, you may have seen it before but if so, worth another look anyway. Note it needs updating...
UV Lighting for Reptiles: A new problem with high UVB output fluorescent compact lamps and tubes? (http://uk.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=AwrSbmFIxclSrCoAaS5LBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTE1bmd0ZXV mBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRVVLMzlfO DU-/SIG=125f8cjvr/EXP=1388983752/**http%3a//www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm)

[formica]

Hi Mark, there were problems with some of the compact UVB bulbs a few years ago, partly because they were positioned too close to the animal, also, they weren`t all very effective.
Here`s some info, you may have seen it before but if so, worth another look anyway. Note it needs updating...
UV Lighting for Reptiles: A new problem with high UVB output fluorescent compact lamps and tubes? (http://uk.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=AwrSbmFIxclSrCoAaS5LBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTE1bmd0ZXV mBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRVVLMzlfO DU-/SIG=125f8cjvr/EXP=1388983752/**http%3a//www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm)

the CFL's in question, where redesigned since that article was last updated, some years ago...i'm sure an article talking about the changes has been posted on this forum somewhere

[B_Aller]

But if you are giving the correct husbandry ... And you have a large enclosure ...

And If these bulbs give any benefit then why not .....

They are not a miracle cure for everything no but any advantage is an advantage ...

We all knw that many monitors will breed in a tiny rub but this does not make them healthy not saying a UVB or UVA bulb will but it will help .... As will a large enclosure so if you can provide both for the better keepers with already good husbandry is this not something you want to add as a bonus to your captive animals .... ?

IMO I feel your statement to be old school and becoming out dated ... Just saying its sounds like you don't want to see the positives rather than them not being there

If it has but one advantage ... Why not have it ?

You've got a lot of if's maybe's and unknowns there, kinda proves my point.
IF..you are giving correct husbandry
IF their is any benefit
How exactly has it been proven to be a bonus?

I am old school and out dated, but my positives are generating from F1 to F5 monitors by the hundreds and setting longevity records for the species I keep, not a bunch of maybe's and promises from people who want to sell me something.

If I could see the results, I'd be all over it, I just have my doubts and a limited budget.


Personally I don't know that many monitors will breed in tiny tubs, my experience has been the exact opposite, but then I've only been keeping and breeding monitors for 21 years.

If it has one advantage.....what is it?
Thanks.

[V87]

You've got a lot of if's maybe's and unknowns there, kinda proves my point.
IF..you are giving correct husbandry
IF their is any benefit
How exactly has it been proven to be a bonus?

I am old school and out dated, but my positives are generating from F1 to F5 monitors by the hundreds and setting longevity records for the species I keep, not a bunch of maybe's and promises from people who want to sell me something.

If I could see the results, I'd be all over it, I just have my doubts and a limited budget.


Personally I don't know that many monitors will breed in tiny tubs, my experience has been the exact opposite, but then I've only been keeping and breeding monitors for 21 years.

If it has one advantage.....what is it?
Thanks.

I'll give u 2 ...

UVA ... Eyesight
UVB ...... White blood cell count ...

I have seen green tree monitors bred in awful conditions infact there was an article on the rep report the other week ...

As for the ifs .... If a keeper has got everything correct uv will b of benefit ... Cheers me dears

http://www.ivis.org/journals/exoticDVM/9-3/Brames.pdf

[murrindindi]

the CFL's in question, where redesigned since that article was last updated, some years ago...i'm sure an article talking about the changes has been posted on this forum somewhere

Hi, it would be great if you could find it!

[murrindindi]

I'll give u 2 ...

UVA ... Eyesight
UVB ...... White blood cell count ...

I have seen green tree monitors bred in awful conditions infact there was an article on the rep report the other week ...

As for the ifs .... If a keeper has got everything correct uv will b of benefit ... Cheers me dears

Hi, the question needs to be; how many generations of those V. prasinus were bred in "awful conditions", rather than they copulated and the keeper incubated some eggs once or twice, if that was the case?
The tests on white blood cell counts were done on animals known to be deficient in those respects, but it seems no details were given as to the conditions they were kept under? THAT`S what makes them in some ways "unreliable" when deciding whether UVB is necessary to keep them healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, the signs are it isn`t necessarily so....
You did go and say you were going to put yourself in the firing line! :)

[V87]

Hi, the question needs to be; how many generations of those V. prasinus were bred in "awful conditions", rather than they copulated and the keeper incubated some eggs once or twice, if that was the case?
The tests on white blood cell counts were done on animals known to be deficient in those respects, but it seems no details were given as to the conditions they were kept under? THAT`S what makes them in some ways "unreliable" when deciding whether UVB is necessary to keep them healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, the signs are it isn`t necessarily so....
You did go and say you were going to put yourself in the firing line! :)

With regard to how many generations no idea but if it happens once it will happen again ..... No ?

Like I said when the results come out from you knw where it may go some way to proving uv and it's worth .... Did you read the link I put up ?

Same is said of a lot of husbandry issues .... How much of everything is scientifically proved ?

I put my self in the firing line because I believe uv is if worth to our captives ... They are designed for it over millions of years why would it not be of benefit ?

I'm not saying its a miracle but it if it has one advantage then why deny them it ?

[formica]

cant find it, however notices where issues by Zilla (UV guide had recieved the bulbs by 2009 but have not published results on the wesbite, that i can see...no news is good news? they do at least recommend using the new bulbs)

ADVISORY NOTICE (9/25/2007)

Central Aquatics™, in the interest of delivering the best possible products to the reptile hobby completes on-going “Quality Control” tests of our products.

A recent QC check by our R&D Labs on the Zilla™ Desert 50 bulb has indicated a potential issue with the “phosphor” coating of the Zilla™ Desert 50 Bulb. The phosphor coating is a complex chemical matrix which is utilized to yield the unique characteristic of any fluorescent bulb. In the case of the Zilla™ Desert 50 Series, one of the chemical elements present produces a low-wavelength UVB fluorescent emission. While still in the UVB emission range (280-320 nm), the effective influence of the low wavelength light is more significant than that of higher UVB constituents (those near 320 nm). As is well known, over exposure of UVB light can cause photo-kerato-conjunctivitis in certain species of reptiles-primarily turtles and lizards. The Zilla™ Desert 50 bulb contains UVB light which is required for animal health; however, if not properly used, harmful overexposure may occur. The very low-wavelength UVB light is most pronounced during the first 120 hours of use.

Based on these findings we are reformulating the “phosphor” coating of the Zilla™ Desert 50 bulbs to reduce overexposure risk. Until these reformulated bulbs are available we will be out of stock on the items listed below.

Until the new Zilla™ Desert 50 products are in your store, we would recommend that you stop selling the sku’s listed below and return the product to your distributor or your Central Aquatics™ Sales Representative for credit. Central Aquatics™ will also replace products that have already been sold that contain the effected bulbs.

- there follows a contact telephone number for enquiries, and a list of all the Desert 50 series lamps with their product and catalogue reference numbers, for stockists to check out

and ZooMed...

I do have good news to report. As stated earlier, our compact fluorescent lamps are being pre-burned to reduce the initial UVB output. They are being pre-burned for 168 hours to carry them through the “burn-in” period and reduce the initial UVB output as experienced by the consumer. This also reduces the difficulty associated with using the lamps as there will no longer be a need for separate instructions for the burn-in period and the remainder of the life of the lamp. With this in mind, we will be working on new instructions soon.

I also received our first reformulated phosphor blend on Tuesday, October 30th. We will be producing new sample CFL’s using this phosphor and will forward some to you for testing as soon as they are finished. These samples will not be pre-burned so that we can analyze UVB decay as well as the lamp spectrum ............... (there followed some details of the spectral analysis; also details of a new dome reflector, samples of which we will also be sent.)

Our primary concern is for the health of the animals.
Customers that have experienced problems should contact Zoo Med directly for a replacement or a refund. Please visit Zoo Med Laboratories | #1 Reptile Products Worldwide -- Welcome to Zoo Med (http://www.zoomed.com) (USA) or Zoo Med Europe (http://www.zoomed.eu) (Europe) for contact information.

Shane Bagnall
Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc. Research & Development Division
3650 Sacramento Drive, San Luis Obispo, CA 93401

both can be found on the UV Guide website, no updates since 2009 on the website, and I dont have access to my yahoo account anymore so cant access the group (not signing up to yahoo again..but if someone else wants to, the group is: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/UVB_Meter_Owners )

[murrindindi]

With regard to how many generations no idea but if it happens once it will happen again ..... No ?

Like I said when the results come out from you knw where it may go some way to proving uv and it's worth .... Did you read the link I put up ?

Same is said of a lot of husbandry issues .... How much of everything is scientifically proved ?

I put my self in the firing line because I believe uv is if worth to our captives ... They are designed for it over millions of years why would it not be of benefit ?

I'm not saying its a miracle but it if it has one advantage then why deny them it ?

I don`t think it`s enough to say "if it happens once it will happen again", we should have got past that stage by now, surely (guesswork, or "hope for the best")?
These days many of the results are in, there IS a "formula" for repeated breeding success over a number of generations with many species without the use of UVB bulbs as has already been explained. Those results ARE "scientific" in the sense they`ve been PROVEN to work time and time again over the last 15 to 20 years, whether they were published in scientific journals/other or not!

[formica]

whether it is scientific, depends which question is actually being asked, if you are asking, can they breed without UV, then fine, but, I dont think that is the question that anyone is actually asking, its certainly not the question I am asking, and nor is it the question that Dr Fry was asking, or the OP, or any of the scientists who wrote the 3 papers which have been posted to this thread.

There is another question which should be asked in relation to breeding, how successful is breeding without UV, in comparison to with UV? how is it effected?

If you want a scientific answer to something, it must be quantifiable in some way or another, the only question which is being answered in the affirmative, is can monitors breed without UV, which imo, is not actually a very important question in the grand scheme of things - the question which has now been answered with a quantifiable certainty, does UV has a positive health benefit to monitors, has been answered in the affirmative

[jarich]

Not sure how true that is for morelia. I've noticed mine look much better under uvb flourescents(temporarily) but haven't seen any confirmed experiments where carpets raised under uvb gain permanent color enhancement.

Also on facebook there is this guy who has a 25 year old(if I remember correctly, but still over 20 years) diamond python. It was a common misconception to believe that diamonds needed uvb for health benefits, but itwas actually due to other husbandry mistakes(keeping them too hot). He says he hasn't kept any morelia under uvb and they are all healthy.

No, it wasn't a misconception. Simply because the health benefits aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't real.

[V87]

I don`t think it`s enough to say "if it happens once it will happen again", we should have got past that stage by now, surely (guesswork, or "hope for the best")?
These days many of the results are in, there IS a "formula" for repeated breeding success over a number of generations with many species without the use of UVB bulbs as has already been explained. Those results ARE "scientific" in the sense they`ve been PROVEN to work time and time again over the last 15 to 20 years, whether they were published in scientific journals/other or not!

With regard to guess work .... And happening again .... it was kinda rhetorical question we have all seen articles over the years of monitors breeding in these kinds of awful conditions ....ie no substrate poor heating poor diet ...

[V87]

whether it is scientific, depends which question is actually being asked, if you are asking, can they breed without UV, then fine, but, I dont think that is the question that anyone is actually asking, its certainly not the question I am asking, and nor is it the question that Dr Fry was asking, or the OP, or any of the scientists who wrote the 3 papers which have been posted to this thread.

There is another question which should be asked in relation to breeding, how successful is breeding without UV, in comparison to with UV? how is it effected?

If you want a scientific answer to something, it must be quantifiable in some way or another, the only question which is being answered in the affirmative, is can monitors breed without UV, which imo, is not actually a very important question in the grand scheme of things - the question which has now been answered with a quantifiable certainty, does UV has a positive health benefit to monitors, has been answered in the affirmative

This ^^^^^^^^
No, it wasn't a misconception. Simply because the health benefits aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't real.

This ^^^^^^^^

[Mikoh4792]

No, it wasn't a misconception. Simply because the health benefits aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't real.

I worded it wrong. It was a common misconception to think that Diamond pythons needed UVB to be healthy.

[infernalis]

It should not take a rocket scientist to conclude that animals that have thrived for MILLIONS of years living in the tropics where the UV index is very high, leading a diurnal life and basking in a tropical sun shouldn't have a little UV in their lives.

What is the point in DENYING IT?? to save money?? if you can't afford a few extra dollars for some decent lighting, then Varanid keeping is not for you.....

We spend hundred upon hundreds, some of us thousands upon thousands of dollars in housing, feeding and maintaining these awesome animals, so a few more dollars for a metal halide lamp or two should in all reality be the least of your worries.

[mdfmonitor]

I've always found there's a lot to be learned from old school!! :)

Many of these old school keepers have bred that same pair over many years & their hatchlings look stunning as do the adult parents.

Uv bulbs are crap compared to natural sunlight as we all know, but i don't have a problem with adding it to my enclosure.

I've used 2 compact eco terra 400 uvb bulbs, they are on the lower level on one side of the viv fitted into domes with a white background, the domes will keep the uvb light in one area & using white inners on the domes won't over intensify the uvb light.

They don't give off to much heat so i can keep my lower ground temps & still allow my basking area to operate without alteration to the set-up.

I'ved used old school methods & he's currently still growing 3" a month & i'm only feeding around 2/3 of the month at around 4.5 foot, in other words i'm holding him back! & he has hell of a feeding response.
8 months ago>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Snapshot221-04-201319-31.png (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Snapshot221-04-201319-31.png.html)
recently (1 year old) >
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00001-11.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Untitled00001-11.jpg.html)

first day after putting uvb bulb in, i took this pic of him basking under the new bulb that i added, not sure why yet! maybe likes the uvb!! i'll see what my observations are over the next month or so, both bulbs are set at different heights.
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Video600022-07.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/Video600022-07.jpg.html)

[B_Aller]

I'm sorry I just don't buy into it. The argument seems to boil down to "it's beneficial because it is...it must be... i mean right?"
I don't think these man made bulbs are offering anything but a possible maybe tiny, tiny fraction of a good thing.
So eyesight and white blood count is improved? Prove it.
I call BS on that.
How are you measuring eyesight improvement?
Ever cut open a dead captive monitor? How about a hundred? What do you see in common?
For my money, substrate is a better investment. Better functioning cages are a better investment. More, quality food is a better investment.
With all this UV bulb talk, any of you ever built outdoor enclosures for your animals? Ever seen the results of long term exposure to natural sunlight? What is it?
I spent years moving animals in and out of outdoor enclosures to make sure they had access to natural sunlight...any guesses as to what the results were?
Best.

[jarich]

I'm sorry I just don't buy into it. The argument seems to boil down to "it's beneficial because it is...it must be... i mean right?"
I don't think these man made bulbs are offering anything but a possible maybe tiny, tiny fraction of a good thing.
So eyesight and white blood count is improved? Prove it.
I call BS on that.
How are you measuring eyesight improvement?
Ever cut open a dead captive monitor? How about a hundred? What do you see in common?
For my money, substrate is a better investment. Better functioning cages are a better investment. More, quality food is a better investment.
With all this UV bulb talk, any of you ever built outdoor enclosures for your animals? Ever seen the results of long term exposure to natural sunlight? What is it?
I spent years moving animals in and out of outdoor enclosures to make sure they had access to natural sunlight...any guesses as to what the results were?
Best.

I guess I dont really understand how you can take a large body of scientifically researched knowledge and reduce it all to "its beneficial because it is...it has to be...I mean right". Again, I think its worth saying, dont take our word for it. Please dont take my word for it, or anyone else here. Do the research yourself, take the word of the people who have been studying this exact topic for as long as youve kept monitors, and in many cases even longer. People whose sole job is to research the Vit D cycle in reptiles. That actually exists! The wonderful thing about technology today is that you dont even have to leave your home to find it. Spend an hour online and you will find all the evidence you need to convince you. Or even contact the people directly who have done this research, if you arent convinced. I can give you the email addresses of the top researchers in this field. They are all very nice people who have studied this topic for literally decades and are more than happy to answer well thought out questions. People like Dr Baines, Dr Gehrmann, Dr Brames, Dr Ferguson have all responded to my emails quickly and with great information. Start with their extensive research on this exact topic and see if you arent then convinced. PLEASE do NOT take our word for it. Dont let your lack of research hold you back in providing something of benefit to your lizards. Of course, no bulb is as good as the sun, just like no enclosure is as big as nature, just like no recreated diet is as good as their wild one. That argument holds no water. I dont provide the lighting system I do because I think it mimics the sun. I provide it because it is the best lighting system available to them that I can offer. I take similar care with trying to give them the best diet and with the soil in the substrate. One does not take away from the other

You are right, if there is a limited amount of money available to a keeper, then I think it should be spent on substrate first, or a proper diet first. However, those of us on this thread (and hopefully all monitor keepers) do not have that problem where its a limited choice scenario. I can provide both a deep, moist, bioactive substrate AND proper lighting to aid in the production of the vitamin d cycle. However, I do not have the option of an outdoor enclosure. I envy you that ability, but I live in an apartment in NYC. I have no outdoor area to build an enclosure in. I would agree that taking an animal outside for at least 2 hours a day in sunlight for the summer would greatly reduce the need for any special UVB lighting. However, it would still seem necessary to include the UVA lighting in their enclosures so that they could see normally. While I have not personally cut open the eyes of hundreds of monitors, I know that the research has been done so that I can say they have the ability to see UVA like you and I see the colour blue. In fact, a great many reptiles can. Its not an option to say they dont. If you think they dont, its because YOU cant see it. Which is what the argument against providing proper lighting essentially boils down to. YOU cant see it, so you think it doesnt exist. Im starting to understand how vanLeeuwenhoek felt when he introduced the world to microorganisms. Just because you cant see it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist, that it isnt beneficial.

The knowledge is there Ben. If you dont take our word for it, then all you have to do is go look at it yourself. Its at your fingertips nowadays, so there is no reason not to improve your base of knowledge.

[murrindindi]

It should not take a rocket scientist to conclude that animals that have thrived for MILLIONS of years living in the tropics where the UV index is very high, leading a diurnal life and basking in a tropical sun shouldn't have a little UV in their lives.

What is the point in DENYING IT?? to save money?? if you can't afford a few extra dollars for some decent lighting, then Varanid keeping is not for you.....

We spend hundred upon hundreds, some of us thousands upon thousands of dollars in housing, feeding and maintaining these awesome animals, so a few more dollars for a metal halide lamp or two should in all reality be the least of your worries.


Hi Wayne, your two Savannah monitors have not had exposure to artificial (or real?) UVB or supplements for the last 22 months, I believe? I suggest instead of buying a couple of metal halide bulbs + ballasts you take your animals to a qualified and experienced vet and have blood tests done to determine their D3 levels. I think they are quite good candidates because they HAVE received a decent whole prey diet (even if at times too little in my personal opinion), proper temp and humidity ranges, etc. If they are deficient in that respect you can then suggest UVB exposure may indeed be beneficial/needed for captive Varanids kept otherwise "fully supported". Obviously this is just 2 animals, but it`s a start! :)

[jarich]

It seems on this we agree Stephan! I'd be willing to hazard a guess on your results Wayne..

[smy_749]

Wayne has UVB I thought, just the fixture is higher up than recommended.

[murrindindi]

Wayne has UVB I thought, just the fixture is higher up than recommended.

Hi, initially I believe the UVB tube was fixed on the ceiling which means it was around 4 feet away, making it of no benefit whatsoever, then Wayne mentioned afew months ago he`d moved it closer (18 inches), that still makes it of virtually no use as far as any significant UVB`s concerned.
I do fully appreciate he was worried the monitors might climb on it and break it (very possible), though it would be fairly easy to place a guard around it...

[murrindindi]

It seems on this we agree Stephan! I'd be willing to hazard a guess on your results Wayne..

So hazard a guess, Josh..... :D

[mdfmonitor]

I need to dig back through old vids & pics etc to see how often i had a compact uv in, but it would of been near to useless the height & quality etc back then, but i'm fairly sure he was mainly on insect diet at the time of this blood test, gut loaded & dusted black crickets.

This was my sav that i lost due ill health caused by a crappy cage set-up a few years back, wasn't long after the blood test i had him put to sleep.


Take blood sample
Reptile Profile 1
Ultrasound scan
injecti Fortum Injectable
injecti Baytril Inj 2.5%
inject2 Anivit B12
Bavtrj

BIOCHEMISTRY
Total Protein 58.8 g/l ( 42 - 105
Albumin 13.7 g/l (12—35)
Globulin 45.1 g/l C 34 — 66
Calcium 3.02 mmoi/1 ( 2.85 — 4.38
Phosphorus 0.87 =01/1 C 0.52 — 4.62
AST 16 u/i (1—170)
CR 156 u/i (150-9080)
Uric Acid 175 umol/1 C 71 — 1071

HAflIATOLOGY
Raemoglobin 6.3 g/dl ( 6.2 - 13.2
Haematocrit 0.22 1/1 C 0.21 - 0.51
Red Blood cells 0.94 lOAl2/l ( 0.63 — 1.58
NOV 234.0 fl C 228.6 — 391.7
MCRC 28.6 g/dl ( 25.9 — 38.3
NCR * 67.0 pg Low ( e9.4 — 99.2
White Blood cells 10.0 lO°9/l ( 1.2 — 11.3
Heterophils 38.0% 3.80 lOA9/l ( 0.28 — 5.88
Lymphocytes 50.0% 5.00 lOA9/l ( 0.22 — 5.25
Eosinophils 1.0% 0.10 lO’9/l
Monocytea 1.0% 0.10 lOA9/l C 0.06 — 6.67
Azurophils 9.0% 0.90 lO°9/l ( 0.11 — 1.96
Basophila 1.0% 0.10 10A9/l ( 0.03 — 1.66
Thromhocytes 18 lOA9/l
Film Comment NBC: The red cells show a slight to moderate degree of
anisocytosis, nuclei poikilocytoaia, alight
polychroiamsia and slight hypochromia.
NBC: The white hlood cell morphology appears normal.
Examined hy NBc, MSc, MIENS
clinical coxmaent
the only comment to make here ia the NBC morphological coxmaent which may reflect anorexia/malnutrition (note he was always well fed)
,

[formica]

I need to dig back through old vids & pics etc to see how often i had a compact uv in, but it would of been near to useless the height & quality etc back then, but i'm fairly sure he was mainly on insect diet at the time of this blood test, gut loaded & dusted black crickets.

This was my sav that i lost due ill health caused by a crappy cage set-up a few years back, wasn't long after the blood test i had him put to sleep.


Take blood sample
Reptile Profile 1
Ultrasound scan
injecti Fortum Injectable
injecti Baytril Inj 2.5%
inject2 Anivit B12
Bavtrj

BIOCHEMISTRY
Total Protein 58.8 g/l ( 42 - 105
Albumin 13.7 g/l (12—35)
Globulin 45.1 g/l C 34 — 66
Calcium 3.02 mmoi/1 ( 2.85 — 4.38
Phosphorus 0.87 =01/1 C 0.52 — 4.62
AST 16 u/i (1—170)
CR 156 u/i (150-9080)
Uric Acid 175 umol/1 C 71 — 1071

HAflIATOLOGY
Raemoglobin 6.3 g/dl ( 6.2 - 13.2
Haematocrit 0.22 1/1 C 0.21 - 0.51
Red Blood cells 0.94 lOAl2/l ( 0.63 — 1.58
NOV 234.0 fl C 228.6 — 391.7
MCRC 28.6 g/dl ( 25.9 — 38.3
NCR * 67.0 pg Low ( e9.4 — 99.2
White Blood cells 10.0 lO°9/l ( 1.2 — 11.3
Heterophils 38.0% 3.80 lOA9/l ( 0.28 — 5.88
Lymphocytes 50.0% 5.00 lOA9/l ( 0.22 — 5.25
Eosinophils 1.0% 0.10 lO’9/l
Monocytea 1.0% 0.10 lOA9/l C 0.06 — 6.67
Azurophils 9.0% 0.90 lO°9/l ( 0.11 — 1.96
Basophila 1.0% 0.10 10A9/l ( 0.03 — 1.66
Thromhocytes 18 lOA9/l
Film Comment NBC: The red cells show a slight to moderate degree of
anisocytosis, nuclei poikilocytoaia, alight
polychroiamsia and slight hypochromia.
NBC: The white hlood cell morphology appears normal.
Examined hy NBc, MSc, MIENS
clinical coxmaent
the only comment to make here ia the NBC morphological coxmaent which may reflect anorexia/malnutrition (note he was always well fed)
,

interesting, I dont know what half of those are, is there kidney function in there somewhere?

I know that anemia and kidney disease go hand in hand with anisocytosis - when you say crappy setup, can you be more specific?

anyone else got blood test results they can post up? would be very interesting to see, esp if there are some interesting differences between them, and climate control/diet etc - maybe it needs a new thread so this doesnt go off course

[mdfmonitor]

interesting, I dont know what half of those are, is there kidney function in there somewhere?

I know that anemia and kidney disease go hand in hand with anisocytosis - when you say crappy setup, can you be more specific?

anyone else got blood test results they can post up? would be very interesting to see, esp if there are some interesting differences between them, and climate control/diet etc - maybe it needs a new thread so this doesnt go off course

Crappy set-up as in not good for monitor!! not good at holding humidity etc :)

It's relevant to the calcium levels in the blood whilst using uv or not, i need to look back through pics around that time over a 3 year period & see when i used uv etc.

[infernalis]

Hi, initially I believe the UVB tube was fixed on the ceiling which means it was around 4 feet away,

The only way your math works here is assuming a recessed fixture and a bare cage floor.

Light fixture hangs down fom cieling of cage nearly 12 inches, soil substrate on floor of cage 24 inches deep.

4 feet is 48 inches, subtract the 36 inches and figure the rest out for yourself.

Now figure that my lizards still walk tall, their backs almost brush in direct contact with that tube.

http://www.varanuspark.com/house.jpg

[jarich]

I have my latest results but they would not be particularly useful in this case either. My female was just going into egg production when I got them, so her calcium is through the roof, uric acid high, etc. However, none of these tests show a measure of the D metabolites, which is the only test that the difference would show up on.

[murrindindi]

http://www.varanus.us/cage/cage.jpg

Hi Wayne, where`s the 24 inches of substrate, CLEARLY nowhere near, in spite of constantly telling everyone else they must have that depth as a minimum, plus it`s sloped up at on end, there`s even less depth on the right hand side!? I`m pretty sure when you got the UVB tube it was fixed on the roof (or very close to it, according to the pics you showed)? You put photos up on several websites at the time and told everyone "they even have UVB"!?
You quite recently informed me on another website (HC?) that the tube was now within 18 inches of them, it`s still too far to be of any benefit!
When I have a little time I`ll post the links to your comments and other photos... I do wish you`d stop contradicting yourself so regularly, it`s so darn confusing!

[formica]

I have my latest results but they would not be particularly useful in this case either. My female was just going into egg production when I got them, so her calcium is through the roof, uric acid high, etc. However, none of these tests show a measure of the D metabolites, which is the only test that the difference would show up on.


any results are useful if they are accompanied by other info, for eg as you said, going into egg production - although we have to be cautious, as there are innumerable variables which only a specialist would be able to analyse properly

[murrindindi]

Here`s one of your latest videos, towards the end the tube is clearly visible, and in no way is it just above their body as you say ("brush in direct contact with the tube")? My guess is that it IS around the 18inches above them you told me it was a couple of months ago.... (I didn`t forget, you obviously have)!
I still feel they are excellent candidates for testing as they have received decent care for the last 22 months (even without UVB exposure). :)


Savannah Monitor care - Part one - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9ZYapLxhg&list=UU0Za0gqQo9LgW1MPLpqQELg)

[murrindindi]

I have my latest results but they would not be particularly useful in this case either. My female was just going into egg production when I got them, so her calcium is through the roof, uric acid high, etc. However, none of these tests show a measure of the D metabolites, which is the only test that the difference would show up on.

Hi Josh, it`s a shame you`ve only found out recently you have a female, I wonder how many times she`s been gravid in the past (I`m pretty sure she would have been)?
Have you thought about keeping a weight record, it would be very useful in watching for any sudden gains?

[jarich]

Hi Josh, it`s a shame you`ve only found out recently you have a female, I wonder how many times she`s been gravid in the past (I`m pretty sure she would have been)?
Have you thought about keeping a weight record, it would be very useful in watching for any sudden gains?

Indeed it is. Im a little upset the first vet I took her to originally didnt catch it, but then she was quite young then.

I suppose I could keep weighing her, but I dont like lifting her up that often. She is fine with me touching her as long as I dont pick her up. Lifting her completely tends to get me the silent treatment for a few days.

[murrindindi]

Indeed it is. Im a little upset the first vet I took her to originally didnt catch it, but then she was quite young then.

I suppose I could keep weighing her, but I dont like lifting her up that often. She is fine with me touching her as long as I dont pick her up. Lifting her completely tends to get me the silent treatment for a few days.

Maybe you could make a platform to fit on top of some digital scales, leave some bits of food on top and get a measurement?
I remember Aja Michelle`s female gaining weight at times, Aja was never quite sure whether she was gravid or just too heavy (I personally thought she was gravid).

[infernalis]

http://www.varanus.us/cage/cage.jpg

Hi Wayne, where`s the 24 inches of substrate, CLEARLY nowhere near, in spite of constantly telling everyone else they must have that depth as a minimum, plus it`s sloped up at on end, there`s even less depth on the right hand side!? I`m pretty sure when you got the UVB tube it was fixed on the roof (or very close to it, according to the pics you showed)? You put photos up on several websites at the time and told everyone "they even have UVB"!?
You quite recently informed me on another website (HC?) that the tube was now within 18 inches of them, it`s still too far to be of any benefit!
When I have a little time I`ll post the links to your comments and other photos... I do wish you`d stop contradicting yourself so regularly, it`s so darn confusing!

Try a photo that's not 2 years old. ;)

http://www.varanuspark.com/LFcEra/cage.jpg

[murrindindi]

Hi Wayne, it`s good you`ve moved the tube closer, if they start to climb on it, the simplest thing would be to fit a reflector, that would double the effective distance and you could have it a little further away (simple)!
And that wasn`t a photo I showed it was the latest video you put on Youtube, published 19th December 2013.
By the way, I like choc-chip cookies, too.... :)