Sad but true (food for thought)

[BH Varanus]

Ya know to be honest I respect every varanus breed to the fullest. I've owned several species as well. Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that the most discarded by the pet trade and academia is the V. Ornatus or otherwise incorrectly known as an 'ornate nile monitor.' It didn't bother me at first, but when I was doing research for my partho project coming up next year I realized that I literally had to go back to my old university and search through their data bases just to fine a whisper about ornates. Not to mention sift through nile monitor data and validate with provided photos and figure out if it was actually and ornate!. Thank god for BAIWAK to some degree!. .

Savannah's run the streets of monitor forums and I understand why and there's no point in arguing. They're are arguably one of the best species to start with and obtain. Ornate owners on the other hand are a select few and dwindling believe it or not. Its hard to find forums that even recognize that this monitor is climbing up the CITES ranking and is disappearing with the west African rain forest. Maybe then it will be cool to own an ornate and nile owners will look twice about what they actually have. In addition, the price will sky rocket.

I'm not saying they' re the best monitor, but today I went to war in a pet store about what they thought was a nile. I interrupted an conversation the employee was having with a 10 year old potential buyer! he actually told the kid that this stressed juvi ornate was a cb nile and that it would only grow to three feet! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

All I ask is that the ornate owners out there start flooding forums with good research data and husbandry tips( the correct husbandry!). We don't need to take over forums just establish a presence and give this species a fighting chance at proper care.

[murrindindi]

Hi, there is very little research data on this species both in the wild and captivity and the captive husbandry doesn`t differ much from many other species.

[BH Varanus]

Hi, there is very little research data on this species both in the wild and captivity and the captive husbandry doesn`t differ much from many other species.

I have to disagree, all monitor husbandry when done to exact ( close enough) geographic spec can be seen as vastly different and this plays a factor. It's more so a one size fits all strategy that's is widely accepted , but doesn't make it correct. If one size truly fit all varanus species would not differ. Cranial size and shape, etc. would be the same. These all play a factor and should be considered. but realistically who really cares enough ( besides veterans of the hobby). Herp keeping is a youth dominated sector and the expenses involved in proper keeping force the varanus community to just assume the varanus is happy with a one size fits all approach

honestly the real reason for the lack of info is the fact that ornates are captured by quote on quote farms because of mistaken identity. The increased increased rebel activity and civil unrest make it impossible for researchers.

i was just venting my friend; the politics of herp keeping just sometimes drive me nuts

[murrindindi]

Hi again, I said the captive care of V. ornatus doesn`t differ much from that of many other species, not that it`s exactly the same in the tiniest detail! :)
I found that temps and humidity, diet, enclosure layout etc are/were pretty much the same as V. niloticus and V. salvator (all large species and semi aquatic in habit). There are obviously some differences morphologically in the 3 species I`ve mentioned, but their captive care is very similar indeed.
I`d be most interested to hear your own experiences and the differences you feel there are?
I was involved with a couple of scientists a few years ago, we were supposed to do some research on growth in wild ornatus in the Congo but because of the civil unrest the studies were never completed. A great shame, as nothing much has been done since as far as I`m aware?

[BH Varanus]

understood my friend I'm just passionate about conservation... lol So I come off a little hard anxious. What keeping experiences would you like me to share I don't know your keeper level and years in, so i don't want to insult your intelligence with herptaculturist psycho babble...

[simpleyork]

If all goes well, I'll be setting a up a breeding program for Ornates in the next two to three years, I have three at this point and do plan on adding 2 more next fall just to make sure I have a pair out of the bunch.
On the note of mistaken Identity, I always know that LLL reptile will have them labeled as Niles on their website, and they always bring a few in September to the local reptile expo here in Utah.

[murrindindi]

I have just about 35years experience keeping Varanids, and I`ve still only scratched the surface!
I mentioned Ornatus` captive care is very similar to many other species, you disagreed, so I would like to know what you feel the main differences are? I find that the temps, humidity, enclosure layout and diet being pretty much the same in captivity (fully supporting).

[murrindindi]

If all goes well, I'll be setting a up a breeding program for Ornates in the next two to three years, I have three at this point and do plan on adding 2 more next fall just to make sure I have a pair out of the bunch.
On the note of mistaken Identity, I always know that LLL reptile will have them labeled as Niles on their website, and they always bring a few in September to the local reptile expo here in Utah.

Hi, I saw some Ornates advertised on the "Kingsnake" website and they were being sold as Niles, I sent them a quite polite email explaining the differences but I never heard back, I think they still sell them that way? Then again, they`ve only been classified as a separate species for 16 years, it takes time for the word to get around! ;)

[BH Varanus]

If all goes well, I'll be setting a up a breeding program for Ornates in the next two to three years, I have three at this point and do plan on adding 2 more next fall just to make sure I have a pair out of the bunch.
On the note of mistaken Identity, I always know that LLL reptile will have them labeled as Niles on their website, and they always bring a few in September to the local reptile expo here in Utah.

We definitely should keep in touch york even though my primary focus in the coming years will be my black dragon project.... I'm considering an ornate program as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BH Varanus]

I have just about 35years experience keeping Varanids, and I`ve still only scratched the surface!
I mentioned Ornatus` captive care is very similar to many other species, you disagreed, so I would like to know what you feel the main differences are? I find that the temps, humidity, enclosure layout and diet being pretty much the same in captivity (fully supporting).


I feel as keepers we're all lone warriors around a fire place trading battle strategies; to say the least! When it comes to my captive care requirements I itemize every aspect ( well try my best to ). I've always found salvators easier to care for and feed in general. The stress levels of the salvators was never as extreme as the ornates on any given situation ( in my opinion). Ornates are more temperamental to care and diet requirements. For example I have never fed mice to my ornates. I stick with the feeder species native to the west African rain forest i.e crustacean, cichlids, insects and the carrion.
when ever I've taken an ornate off of mice it has never i mean never accepted them again.

I found that feeding a (controversial proper) varied diet causes ornates to reject the fat mouse standard. of course for this theory to be realized it would mean that one would have to feed a varied diet (strictly). My female ornates in the past and the one i currently have now only accept red meat items and crustaceans during the gravid period and will not accept fish. I nevvvvver had this occur with water monitors or other species. It made me dig deeper into the nutritional requirements for egg laying and the need for increased calcium. what i was doing was I was treating the red meat items with a USP calcium supplement and B-1. now the numbers dont matter to the monitor but my observation show that their was a decreased acceptance of red meet in the non lay period.

I also feed my ornates every day except weekends small portions. I have found that unlike salvators ( just to make one comparison) when ornates are fed at such a frequency they tend to not feed as tenaciously and also become more docile( still testing that theory)

By supplying consistent provisions of food and water for captive animals there is a theory ( can't remember the term..lol) that states a relaxation of the natural selection on traits associated with food selection become diluted. I feel that slavators dont adhere to this rule and maintain an opportunistic feeding habit/response as opposed to ornates which become selective feeders.

In regards to humidty I've found that i get more activity from my ornates by doing a high humidty in the early morning and tappering off by mid afternoon and keeping a steady 60%. I know allot of tropical varanus keepers like a steady humidity which honestly i don't agree with being that no where on the planet is humidity consistent. however it makes it easier to keep the animal alive. i've found sluggish behavior in my ornates when i have steady high humidty as opposed to my salvators who are from a region where humidty is higher in general. the west African rain forest averages support my humidity assumptions.

I'm throwing together a publication so please forgive the choppiness of my response.

I've rehabbed 4 ornates over the years my latest female is the only one I will not rehome after rehab is complete.

[mdfmonitor]

Something i'd like to see a tips page!!

feeding adult mice upwards most have 150/160f surface basking platform

put a second level in with the basking platforn on, to keep them exercised & the decrease in humidity higher up in the cage.

offer two basking light set-ups with different basking temps.

soak mice/rats in water before feeding, especially new arrivals.

new monitors that are shy, put a branch in front of the basking platform.

vivs in main rooms/cold floors sit viv on a insulator.

seal viv completely, don't air holes!!

make sue beam don't have hot spots. require 30 degree beam

low lights use smaller wattage 60/75w, so they don't burn your mon.

don't leave locust in, they climb on basking lights! mons jump to get locust.

sliding doors need to be placed above soil level to keep soil out of tracks

& so one, sometimes points get lost in the page!! :)

[murrindindi]

Hi again, thanks for your detailed reply.
I`m not quite sure what you mean when you say that many "tropical varanus" keepers try and have a "steady humidity"? In my experience I (and I know many others) offer a range, it would be practically impossible to have a specific figure throughout the day (or night), or throughout the whole enclosure?
I`m also a little confused about "a varied diet causes ornates to reject the fat mouse standard"?
I always fed some variety to my male ornatus, he would eat anything offered, and even as a 7.5 feet adult would take a small insect or very small snail as readily as a large rat, fish, etc. I certainly never noticed him becoming a "selective feeder" in the 14 years I had him.
Neither have I found a difference in temperament between ornatus and salvator and several other species, they are ALL pretty nervous as hatchlings/juveniles but seem to calm down as they mature, possibly because they are more "confident" in their ability to defend themselves, not to mention they become acclimated to the keeper to a greater extent in many cases (in my personal experience).
Obviously between the two of us we`re only referring to a very small number of animals, I`m not sure we can say that everything we`ve observed occurs generally in this and the other species mentioned?
I don`t know which part of their range you`ve checked the humidity levels, but I doubt there`s much difference at all at times between Tropical West Africa and many parts of Asia. I`ve visited India and Sri Lanka several times, as well as Africa.
With the greatest of respect, I think you`re making it more complicated than it needs to be in part!

[BH Varanus]

Hi again, thanks for your detailed reply.
I`m not quite sure what you mean when you say that many "tropical varanus" keepers try and have a "steady humidity"? In my experience I (and I know many others) offer a range, it would be practically impossible to have a specific figure throughout the day (or night), or throughout the whole enclosure?
I`m also a little confused about "a varied diet causes ornates to reject the fat mouse standard"?
I always fed some variety to my male ornatus, he would eat anything offered, and even as a 7.5 feet adult would take a small insect or very small snail as readily as a large rat, fish, etc. I certainly never noticed him becoming a "selective feeder" in the 14 years I had him.
Neither have I found a difference in temperament between ornatus and salvator and several other species, they are ALL pretty nervous as hatchlings/juveniles but seem to calm down as they mature, possibly because they are more "confident" in their ability to defend themselves, not to mention they become acclimated to the keeper to a greater extent in many cases (in my personal experience).
Obviously between the two of us we`re only referring to a very small number of animals, I`m not sure we can say that everything we`ve observed occurs generally in this and the other species mentioned?
I don`t know which part of their range you`ve checked the humidity levels, but I doubt there`s much difference at all at times between Tropical West Africa and many parts of Asia. I`ve visited India and Sri Lanka several times, as well as Africa.
With the greatest of respect, I think you`re making it more complicated than it needs to be in part!

Experiences vary and unfortunately as research goes my personal encounter and anyone else don't matter unless we have enough specimens documented in a control environment. basically what it all bolds down to is I lived in asia myself witnessed several things never could get to australia though. been to several locations as well, blah blah. feel free to pull the actual weather data and do the averages. The region do differ but i'm not going to debate pressures systems. we can go back and forth about what we have encountered but in the end they are different and just because a varanus adapts to a particular standard feeding practice does not merit the strategy. its not complicated it just I try to conform to the region and species and treat anything i own as an individual with great success. Not going to knock anyone's strategy, but realistically i feel a one size fits all approach is irresponsible and lazy. whether someone has one year or 50 years it doesn't matter.its a circular debate of egos. what works for you works for you.

[BH Varanus]

Something i'd like to see a tips page!!

feeding adult mice upwards most have 150/160f surface basking platform

put a second level in with the basking platforn on, to keep them exercised & the decrease in humidity higher up in the cage.

offer two basking light set-ups with different basking temps.

soak mice/rats in water before feeding, especially new arrivals.

new monitors that are shy, put a branch in front of the basking platform.

vivs in main rooms/cold floors sit viv on a insulator.

seal viv completely, don't air holes!!

make sue beam don't have hot spots. require 30 degree beam

low lights use smaller wattage 60/75w, so they don't burn your mon.

don't leave locust in, they climb on basking lights! mons jump to get locust.

sliding doors need to be placed above soil level to keep soil out of tracks

& so one, sometimes points get lost in the page!! :)

Enountered the locust issue back when i had my first monitor...lol sucks..ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[BH Varanus]

Hi again, thanks for your detailed reply.
I`m not quite sure what you mean when you say that many "tropical varanus" keepers try and have a "steady humidity"? In my experience I (and I know many others) offer a range, it would be practically impossible to have a specific figure throughout the day (or night), or throughout the whole enclosure?
I`m also a little confused about "a varied diet causes ornates to reject the fat mouse standard"?
I always fed some variety to my male ornatus, he would eat anything offered, and even as a 7.5 feet adult would take a small insect or very small snail as readily as a large rat, fish, etc. I certainly never noticed him becoming a "selective feeder" in the 14 years I had him.
Neither have I found a difference in temperament between ornatus and salvator and several other species, they are ALL pretty nervous as hatchlings/juveniles but seem to calm down as they mature, possibly because they are more "confident" in their ability to defend themselves, not to mention they become acclimated to the keeper to a greater extent in many cases (in my personal experience).
Obviously between the two of us we`re only referring to a very small number of animals, I`m not sure we can say that everything we`ve observed occurs generally in this and the other species mentioned?
I don`t know which part of their range you`ve checked the humidity levels, but I doubt there`s much difference at all at times between Tropical West Africa and many parts of Asia. I`ve visited India and Sri Lanka several times, as well as Africa.
With the greatest of respect, I think you`re making it more complicated than it needs to be in part!

all in all a good varanus debate is always good for the experienced keeper. I hope anyone reading our post doesn't view this convo as a verbal combat but as a reason to dig deeper into their own keeping strategies.. Bravo gentlemen. a tips list is a good idea 'md'

[mdfmonitor]

Enountered the locust issue back when i had my first monitor...lol sucks..ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Most of us find out the hard way!! :)

has anyone got any footage of big monitors eating insects?? can't remember seeing any & it's something i'd really like to see!!

[varanus_mad]

all in all a good varanus debate is always good for the experienced keeper. I hope anyone reading our post doesn't view this convo as a verbal combat but as a reason to dig deeper into their own keeping strategies.. Bravo gentlemen. a tips list is a good idea 'md'

To be honest I find it hard to follow your stand point... But then again I'm a big believer in the KISS strategy,


Aside from your dietary changes in v. Ornatus how did your husbandry differ from the standard,

125f -160f basking spot 75f-90f temp range and a decent humidity gradient?

I am also assuming you provided for digging facilities to?

While it is true that monitors differ in dentition and head shape they all tend to use a similar range of temperatures, and humidity options... We also have an extremely limits range of feeder options, and while I fully understand your approach of inverts and carrion over mice again it seems to work for all species of varanid with the exception of odatria who deffinatly do better on an invert based diet versus a mice one.

ATB Shane,

[infernalis]

has anyone got any footage of big monitors eating insects?? can't remember seeing any & it's something i'd really like to see!!

I would like to see as well, although now that I have a hissing roach colony, it's not hard to imagine, those beasts are some seriously massive insects.

a bug the size of a mouse demands respect.