View Full Version : Multiple small prey items v's one large item
Jim Smith
11-22-13, 02:24 PM
When I first got back into keeping snakes, the breeder I bought my first snake from suggested that feeding a snake multiple smaller prey items rather than one large prey item will allow the snake to grow a bit faster. For example feeding two hoppers instead of one full sized mouse. His logic was that it took the snake less energy to breakdown and digest two smaller prey items than it took to do the same to one large item. I don't think he had any empirical data to support this theory, but his experience suggested that it was true. I have followed this suggestion a number of times and while my snakes tend to grow rather quickly, I don't have any way to compare their growth to snakes fed a diet of single larger prey items per meal. I thought I'd post the question here to see if anyone else has heard this and/or has any thoughts on the validity of this assumption.
Thanks and I look forward to the input on this question.
Mikoh4792
11-22-13, 02:27 PM
Why would it be easier to digest two meals the same size as a larger one? Isn't it still flesh that needs to be broken down? Couple that with more hair, more bones...etc. Or maybe it has to do with more surface area covered by the stomach acid.
Concept9
11-22-13, 02:51 PM
I have read where feeding smaller prey more often helps in growth, true or not, I don't know.
I feed my Mexican Black large food items every 7 to 10 days and it works well for him.
He was 450 grams and 4ft when I got him in April. He is now over 5ft and 1400+ grams.
Starbuck
11-22-13, 02:51 PM
Why would it be easier to digest two meals the same size as a larger one? Isn't it still flesh that needs to be broken down? Couple that with more hair, more bones...etc. Or maybe it has to do with more surface area covered by the stomach acid.
mikoh you are correct i.e. the surface area theory.
The same principle is used in the processing of human foods, flour (tiny particles of grains) are much easier to digest than whole grains because of the greater surface area (among many other factors)…
HOWEVER: the general consensus i have heard on this forum is that one larger prey item is actually healthier for the snake, though i would be very interested to see published and/or peer reviewed data on either point.
Concept9
11-22-13, 03:01 PM
I would be interested as well.
I think Starbuck,if I remember what I read months ago. Larger items less often are better because eating in general stresses snakes. More meals and more items per meal means more stress.
drumcrush
11-22-13, 04:00 PM
I have read where feeding smaller prey more often helps in growth, true or not, I don't know.
I feed my Mexican Black large food items every 7 to 10 days and it works well for him.
He was 450 grams and 4ft when I got him in April. He is now over 5ft and 1400+ grams.
Really, 5 ft?? That's awesome! :D didn't think of mine reaching that length
shaunyboy
11-22-13, 05:28 PM
i prefer feeding 1 large prey item less often...
i feed hatchlings up to sub adult hood every 7 days,after that its 1 large prey item every 2 to 4 weeks
if my Carpets start to look fat i feed less often,as i like to keep my Carpets lean and muscular
cheers shaun
Aaron_S
11-22-13, 10:40 PM
I feed one(1) appropriate prey item once a week. I wouldn't consider this to be large.
Brian at BHB did an experiment with a clutch of cornsnakes. I cannot remember the size of each group of babies but he had a number of them and fed each group differently.
One was fed one large prey item per week.
One was fed a smaller meal per week.
One was fed a smaller meal per week with some reptile vitamin or something added to them.
The best performing babies were the one large item per week. It's on his snakebytes videos. Someone can look it up.
He did state it's a small sample size but was something for Snakebytes because people were asking.
KORBIN5895
11-22-13, 11:11 PM
I have found one very large item less often tends to really kick start growth. There is also an article out there that says larger prey items cause the snakes organs (like heart) to actually expand and is therefore healthier.
Chris72
11-22-13, 11:59 PM
On top of the added stress there is the added effort. (And calories)
All my animals are different but most of the females are now squeezing the day lights out of their meals. Some seem to constrict for so long (on f/t) you would almost think they enjoy it. Couple that with the effort of getting it all the way down and that's a fair bit of effort and calories that don't need to be burned twice in one evening.
(One meal, once a week, properly sized)
A study would be interesting to read if it exists.
.
Starbuck
11-23-13, 06:27 AM
Chris 72, often if I have to feed my snakes an extra mouse (because.someone didn't eat or i thawed too many etc) they are already in feed mode and do not do any of the constricting "killing" behavior.
I wonder if it has something.to.do with the prey itseld, I.e. a larger animal is more likely to be at a better plane of nutrition with less fat et, so you.want to.feed an animal that is lean and muscular (say a med rat vs several rat pups or.several adult mice) but you don't want to.go too big (I.e. jumbo rats) because those animals tend to be too fat?
formica
11-23-13, 06:36 AM
snakes are well adapted to eating large prey items, and then spending some time digesting them, seems logical to me that we should consider this when thinking about how to feed a snake in captivity
i'd be interested to know if this has been studied, I have noticed, especially in younger snakes, that large meals frequently trigger a shed and growth cycle, where as smaller meals, even when the total amount of food may outweigh a single large meal, doesnt seem to have the same effect....perhaps snakes are not as efficient at turning food into growth as they could be, the amount of energy required needs to be balanced with the amount of nutrients available, for efficient growth; perhaps larger meals are the only way to get this balance right, speculation of course, but they have evolved to eat large meals at long and irregular intervals
formica
11-23-13, 06:40 AM
I feed one(1) appropriate prey item once a week. I wouldn't consider this to be large.
Brian at BHB did an experiment with a clutch of cornsnakes. I cannot remember the size of each group of babies but he had a number of them and fed each group differently.
One was fed one large prey item per week.
One was fed a smaller meal per week.
One was fed a smaller meal per week with some reptile vitamin or something added to them.
The best performing babies were the one large item per week. It's on his snakebytes videos. Someone can look it up.
He did state it's a small sample size but was something for Snakebytes because people were asking.
unless the large meals and small meals where offered at diffrent time intervals aswell, it seems fairly obvious what the outcome would have been? would definitly be an interesting study if done properly, with controls included
Hannibalcanibal
11-23-13, 08:28 AM
For me, it depends on the snake.
The higher the metabolism, the smaller and more often it gets fed.
For example, i feed my hognose one smaller prey items twice a week, Many hognose keepers do the same.
I also feed my ball python one large meal every ten days, and my corn snake and sand boa once a week with a good-sized meal.
Some snakes can't digest ridiculously large meals, i think it was the chondros? I know that most hoggie breeders i've talked too think that feeding smaller twice is better than bigger once (for hoggies, anyways)..
Well, that's just how i do it. If anyone has any improvements for me, i'm all ears.
drumcrush
11-23-13, 09:06 AM
I will feed one large item a week, then gradually work them to two, once I know they can take that, I will up the size and repeat.
Chris72
11-25-13, 10:21 PM
Chris 72, often if I have to feed my snakes an extra mouse (because.someone didn't eat or i thawed too many etc) they are already in feed mode and do not do any of the constricting "killing" behavior.
I wonder if it has something.to.do with the prey itseld, I.e. a larger animal is more likely to be at a better plane of nutrition with less fat et, so you.want to.feed an animal that is lean and muscular (say a med rat vs several rat pups or.several adult mice) but you don't want to.go too big (I.e. jumbo rats) because those animals tend to be too fat?
Yeah, having a few "always ready garbage disposal" animals is a luxury. Nothing wrong with doing that from time to time....but I don't think I would put 2 medium rats into a 900g - 1000g snake even though I know I have some who would line up for that.
From one week to the next you want your animal to not become to content (ball pythons anyway) so you don't see them go into fast.
I have girls that could easily put away a large rat at a longer interval but keep them on mediums 1xwk. They are wonderfully healthy and most of them eat like they think a shortage is on the way.
On the multiple items Vs one of proper size (lean v fat).....
You might be right but I hadn't ever considered feeding multiples as a matter of practice. The addition cost per gram of rodent plus the addition effort is enough of a deterrent to not do that. (Unless trying to get someone eating again.
:)
LiL Zap
11-30-13, 07:25 PM
I used to feed my corn snake 1 medium rat every 2 weeks for a while (not sure how long, didn't keep track) but I recently switched to 2 adult mice every 2 weeks. I don't know why but she's definitely getting larger in size (both length and width.) I guess it's different for every animal?
CosmicOwl
12-08-13, 12:37 AM
What do you guys think about feeding two smaller prey items of the same combined weight of a larger prey item? Let's say you have a snake that is long and slender, and probably can't readily accept a prey item of say 10 grams. However, it will readily eat two prey items of 5 grams. As long as it's on the same times scale, do you think there are any drawbacks?
KORBIN5895
12-08-13, 04:04 AM
What do you guys think about feeding two smaller prey items of the same combined weight of a larger prey item? Let's say you have a snake that is long and slender, and probably can't readily accept a prey item of say 10 grams. However, it will readily eat two prey items of 5 grams. As long as it's on the same times scale, do you think there are any drawbacks?
Woman pythons are a very slender snake. I feed them multiple prey items because they have a higher metabolism and their heads and necks dont seem to stretch like a boa or royal.
shaunyboy
12-08-13, 08:44 AM
Woman pythons are a very slender snake. I feed them multiple prey items because they have a higher metabolism and their heads and necks dont seem to stretch like a boa or royal.
^^^^^
i don't have these issues mate
re Carpets
very stretchy they be :D
it never ceases to amaze me the size of prey a Carpet can put away
cheers shaun
KORBIN5895
12-08-13, 05:46 PM
^^^^^
i don't have these issues mate
re Carpets
very stretchy they be :D
it never ceases to amaze me the size of prey a Carpet can put away
cheers shaun
I think they could take bigger prey but all of the breeders I spoke to said multiple small prey was better.
Terranaut
12-09-13, 05:20 AM
I have also spoken to a couple carpet breeders who have said the same but have noticed the opposite with my own collection. The big meal always makes them have a big crap and in yearnings has made a noticeable growth spurt. A $8 2.5-3lb rabbit will keeo my female jungle happy for a month. My adult male eats 5-7 times a year. So to me larger prey is more cost effective as well.
Starbuck
12-09-13, 08:13 AM
Wow terra, what size is your adult male eating, that he only eats every month or so?
I noticed my yearling carpet start 'looking' about 10 days after the small rat feeding, but just 5-6 days after the double rat-fuzzy feeding. The two rat fuzzes weighed ~30 grams each, and the small rat weighed ~2 grams.
shaunyboy
12-09-13, 08:43 AM
Wow terra, what size is your adult male eating, that he only eats every month or so?
I noticed my yearling carpet start 'looking' about 10 days after the small rat feeding, but just 5-6 days after the double rat-fuzzy feeding. The two rat fuzzes weighed ~30 grams each, and the small rat weighed ~2 grams.
i feed my adults every 2 to 4 weeks,in the winter they get only 2 to 4 feeds
my diamonds only get fed 6 month of the year
all my carpets are the size they should be as adults
imo its best to keep carpets lean and muscular
i feel most people over feed captive snakes (not aimed at anyone)
cheers shaun
Terranaut
12-09-13, 10:11 AM
One jumbo once a month from about May to September give or take a few weeks in either end. He takes most of the winter off feed but never looses any weight. This is a spring shot.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/20130712_160452_zps48290316.jpg
KORBIN5895
12-09-13, 10:28 AM
Wow terra, what size is your adult male eating, that he only eats every month or so?
I noticed my yearling carpet start 'looking' about 10 days after the small rat feeding, but just 5-6 days after the double rat-fuzzy feeding. The two rat fuzzes weighed ~30 grams each, and the small rat weighed ~2 grams.
My female boa eats only every 5-6 weeks.
Chris72
12-10-13, 12:40 PM
I think they could take bigger prey but all of the breeders I spoke to said multiple small prey was better.
Also...
Cleaning multiple med size poops is easier than cleaning horse size cr@p (cr@p)
A while back my rodent supplier had 4 mammoth rats mixed in with my mediums (has even apologized) so I fed them to my biggest girls.
It was like a T-rex stopped by for a bathroom break.
:eek:
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