Thinking of using some harvested branches.

[CosmicOwl]

My corn snake's cage is sorely lacking in climbing accommodations and I would like to give him some vertical space to explore. Rather than spending a bunch of money on furniture from a pet store, I'd like to use some branches I pruned off of trees in my yard. I have two large hackberry limbs and several small oak branches that I think will do the job. As far as I know, neither posses toxic qualities. I'm just wondering how I should go about prepping them? I'd rather not remove the bark, because it's quite attractive. Should I just soak them in bleach water and then let them dry?

[Kera]

I think you soak them in a bleach/water solution, then soak in water then let it dry then soak it in more water...not 100% though.

[formica]

yep, soak in hot (65C) water-bleach solution, leave it soaking until the water has gone cold, then leave the branches to dry - once dry, all the chlorine will have evaporated, no need to re-rinse/soak in clean water, just make sure they are dry before putting them in


the oak is definitely safe to use, and no need to remove the bark - no idea what hackberry is, worth confirming either way before using it

[mmarchl23]

You can either use a bleach solution then rinse them thoroughly, or you can take the branches and bake them for an extended time. I prefer to bake them as it help dry the sap out as well.

[CosmicOwl]

You can either use a bleach solution then rinse them thoroughly, or you can take the branches and bake them for an extended time. I prefer to bake them as it help dry the sap out as well.

How long is an extended period of time? Also, some are on the larger side and wouldn't fit in a normal oven, so I'll probably have to do the soak anyway.

[formica]

depends on the thickness of the wood, best to work it out as if calculating a chicken roast, but lower temps - 65C, 45mins per kg, plus 25mins, will do the trick. tbh its a pain doing it that way tho...

[HoldenC]

yep, soak in hot (65C) water-bleach solution, leave it soaking until the water has gone cold, then leave the branches to dry - once dry, all the chlorine will have evaporated, no need to re-rinse/soak in clean water, just make sure they are dry before putting them in
Are you saying I've wasted countless hours obsessing over rinsing the damn bleach solution off??

[formica]

Are you saying I've wasted countless hours obsessing over rinsing the damn bleach solution off??

:) chlorine evaporates very rapidly at room temperature, that one of the reasons its such a great product for cleaning our homes


...but there is no real harm in rinsing aswell, especially if you use water above 65C, not only will it dry of quicker, it will also deal with any final micro organisms which may have managed to get past the initial heat and bleach. but essentially, yeah, its not necessary, once the bleach has evaporated, the job is done

[infernalis]

Wow... insane.

Use them AS IS.

Are you germophobes afraid of cooties???

What exactly do you think is going to happen?

[formica]

Wow... insane.

Use them AS IS.

Are you germophobes afraid of cooties???

What exactly do you think is going to happen?

there are very good reasons for doing it, even if you disagree with them - this is particularly true when using items from areas which contain reptile populations, which will then be used for a reptile which is not native to that area.

so yes. cooties, if you want to call it that.

and no i do not subscribe to the belief that reptiles are some kind of invincible force of nature who cannot succumb to alien parasitic, viral or bacterial infections, simply by keeping their temps up.....nor do many other people, casual keepers, scientists and vets alike.


on top of the biological reasons - what else could be on the branches? petrol? pesticides? ...the list is endless...

[Terranaut]

Wow... insane.

Use them AS IS.

Are you germophobes afraid of cooties???

What exactly do you think is going to happen?

I have to agree with this. I have not ever treated natural wood used in my enclosures. How can some want to sterilize their wood yet have bioactive enclosures. I do not see the point. I mean I would not use a log crawling with ants or anything but other than a good wipe.... I see no reason to risk bleeching an animal over exposing it to a bit of nature.
Not bashing anyone but I think this is even more of a waste of time than a seperate feeding tub. Again my opinion, take it as you will.

[infernalis]

there are very good reasons for doing it, even if you disagree with them - this is particularly true when using items from areas which contain reptile populations, which will then be used for a reptile which is not native to that area.

so yes. cooties, if you want to call it that.

and no i do not subscribe to the belief that reptiles are some kind of invincible force of nature who cannot succumb to alien parasitic, viral or bacterial infections, simply by keeping their temps up.....nor do many other people, casual keepers, scientists and vets alike.


on top of the biological reasons - what else could be on the branches? petrol? pesticides? ...the list is endless...

Parasites can NOT cross contaminate via a tree limb, they transfer from animal to animal... they require HOSTS to carry them.

And unless you are picking up limbs in downtown New York City, inside a factory smoke stack or hanging over a highway just exactly HOW are these mysterious pollutants going to get there?

Driftwood from the Thames would not be something I would even want touching my skin.. so London would not a place to gather it..

[Starbuck]

Though I agree with infernal is r.e. the 'cooties' bit, i will share this:


I found an AWESOME, GIANT tree branch outside, as a tree fell in my neighborhood and they were carting it off. It looked perfect for my hondurans cage so i grabbed it. I let it sit outside in the florida sun for a week or two (mostly just because i couldn't get around to bringing it inside). Then i brought it inside, where it sat in my spare room for a week or so. I finally got it in her cage and it looked awesome…

3 weeks later (about), i saw a beetle in her cage (i thought, whatever it must have snuck in because its nice and warm and humid…). then there were three. The entomologist in my finally kicked on and i removed the branch, and the beetles, and saw some very neat short faced longhorns into my collection… Though i left the log out in the room. Im mostly waiting to see when things stop emerging, because for me it was a very cool little experiment, but if you aren't into wood boring beetles then MAYBE soaking or bleaching might be beneficial.
I guess this would only be an issue if the log was freshly cut (if you find it dried out along a lake or in the woods my guess is you'd be fine).

[KORBIN5895]

yeah...... cut and use.

[formica]

Parasites can NOT cross contaminate via a tree limb, they transfer from animal to animal... they require HOSTS to carry them.

And unless you are picking up limbs in downtown New York City, inside a factory smoke stack or hanging over a highway just exactly HOW are these mysterious pollutants going to get there?

Driftwood from the Thames would not be something I would even want touching my skin.. so London would not a place to gather it..

not all parasites are internal, not all parasites require a host at every stage of their life, many parasites which require multiple hosts also require excretion at some point. fleas, mites and ticks, to name but a few, are several examples of parasites which are not necessarly picked up from direct contact with other animals.


Pesticides, herbicides, and many other harmful but frequently overlooked chemicals, find their way across our country side in amounts which can be dangerous.

Insects inside wood, can not only carry parasites, but a host of bacteria and viri which can be dangerous, not to mention the build up of dangerous chemicals which they absorb from their food.



then there are molds and fungi, many of which can be harmful, esp regarding Respiratory Infections, lungs are the perfect environment for fungal infections, they are warm and moist, and full of nutrients from an ever constant blood supply.


what about other insects, would you really want to introduce a termite or carpenter ant queen into your enclosure? you can be sure that if it surivives, it's workers will find somewhere nice to setup camp... and if its a wooden enclosure, then you really are in trouble.


the list of things that can be found on untreated wood is endless - it is perfectly acceptable for people to choose to ignore those risks, when they understand them, but imo its not acceptable to completely deny them, ESPECIALLY when discussing these topics with people who may be new to keeping reptiles and dealing with natural decor collected from the wild.


lastly, woodworm....and extremely common and massively damaging little grub which can litrally pull a house down.

[Terranaut]

So do people using bioactive substrates wash and clean the bugs they introduce to ensure they are not carrying parasites?


@formica
In Ontario, non comercial use of pesticides has been illegal for years now. I almost wonder if your UK wood has different potential pitfalls than on this side of the pond. BUT I still caution your use of the words "understanding" or lack there of as I have seen you post in another thread. Just for once consider that maybe you are the person lacking understanding here? Maybe doing all of this washing and baking is for not? Please show me an example of someone who has lost there snake due to some infestation from wood they gathered from the wild....many members here have proven the "no wash" method works fine.
Perhaps being on different continents presents different situations?

[Kid Boa]

Wow... insane.

Use them AS IS.

Are you germophobes afraid of cooties???

What exactly do you think is going to happen?

Agree ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All I ever do is strip the bark off and let the wood dry and I only do this because I like the looks.

On the other hand, if you wanted to clean the wood you can, its just really not need.

I have had 12 Boas over the years and never had an incident.

[MizCandice]

Wow... insane.

Use them AS IS.

Are you germophobes afraid of cooties???

What exactly do you think is going to happen?

Um where I live I worry about pestasides from local village/city spraying.... bugs of all sorts... and yes germs from animals captive bred snakes arent exposed to! I personally do bleach solution AND dry in the oven. If there to large though you can of course air dry itll take longer though. Maybe its overkill but Id rather err on the side of caution... if it were a local wild caught animal then the exposure to the natural fauna wouldnt be an issue but a ball python, sand boa etc.. I wouldnt risk it.

[KORBIN5895]

So do people using bioactive substrates wash and clean the bugs they introduce to ensure they are not carrying parasites?


@formica
In Ontario, non comercial use of pesticides has been illegal for years now. I almost wonder if your UK wood has different potential pitfalls than on this side of the pond. BUT I still caution your use of the words "understanding" or lack there of as I have seen you post in another thread. Just for once consider that maybe you are the person lacking understanding here? Maybe doing all of this washing and baking is for not? Please show me an example of someone who has lost there snake due to some infestation from wood they gathered from the wild....many members here have proven the "no wash" method works fine.
Perhaps being on different continents presents different situations?

Are you saying he might not know what he is talking about?????? Seriously? I think that may be the understatement of the year.

[Terranaut]

Are you saying he might not know what he is talking about?????? Seriously? I think that may be the understatement of the year.

What I am saying is maybe he shouldn't tell others that they don't know what they are talking about when they are well aware of "enter topic here" . He actually told me in another thread I have no understanding of thermo regulation. I let it go but now suggesting many of us suffer a lack of understanding...well...you know how I would feel right ? ;)

[Mikoh4792]

So what is there to understand about thermoregulation?(that we don't know of)

[Terranaut]

I don't want to kill this thread so I will leave it at that. If you find an old thermostat thread where I support the use of cheaper thermostats you can read the whole thing. Once he said that I just laughed and moved on.

[Mikoh4792]

nevermind i remember that thread

[drumcrush]

I baked my branches at 250 for an hour

[shaunyboy]

i fill my bath with water and add some bleach,then i put the branches into the water, wieghing them down with a few house bricks,to keep them submerged,i let them soak for a few hours...

then i empty the bleach water out the bath and hose the branches down with my shower head,scrubbing any dirty areas with a scrubbing brush...

then i fill the bath up with clean water and let the branches soak for another few hours,to fget rid of any remaining bleach...

then i put the branches into the cuboard our hot water tanks in to dry out

once dry i cut to size and put them in the snake tanks

cheers shaun

[formica]

So do people using bioactive substrates wash and clean the bugs they introduce to ensure they are not carrying parasites?


@formica
In Ontario, non comercial use of pesticides has been illegal for years now. I almost wonder if your UK wood has different potential pitfalls than on this side of the pond. BUT I still caution your use of the words "understanding" or lack there of as I have seen you post in another thread. Just for once consider that maybe you are the person lacking understanding here? Maybe doing all of this washing and baking is for not? Please show me an example of someone who has lost there snake due to some infestation from wood they gathered from the wild....many members here have proven the "no wash" method works fine.
Perhaps being on different continents presents different situations?

when I set up a bioactive substrate, the substrate itself is soaked and heated, to sterilize it, then I add various arthropods depending on the exact setup.

infact in the UK, reptiles are far rarer than the US, chances are lower of any of the said parasites et al, being present - that doesnt mean that they arnt there

imo it is good practice, and learning good practice is what people should do when they start....you can cut corners later on, once you have experience and are able to identify problems and their causes before they become critical.

What I am saying is maybe he shouldn't tell others that they don't know what they are talking about when they are well aware of "enter topic here" . He actually told me in another thread I have no understanding of thermo regulation. I let it go but now suggesting many of us suffer a lack of understanding...well...you know how I would feel right ? ;)


you stated that pulse and dimmer thermostats cause snakes to become inactive, you infered that snakes require a specific tempreture, and once they find it, they wont move, neither of these things are true, and both suggestions imply a misunderstanding of thermoregulation.


Are you saying he might not know what he is talking about?????? Seriously? I think that may be the understatement of the year.


grow up.

[infernalis]

I am going to be honest, when I brought in the first ton of dirt, I did not realize it had dormant bees in it... what happened when that dirt warmed up?? we all know what happened, I had a couple dozen bees in my house during the winter.

Lesson learned.

However, a narrow diameter limb, cut from a LIVE tree and placed in an enclosure is low risk, IF the limb has bore holes in it, leave it in the woods..

I know MANY top notch keepers who have collected drift wood off beaches and used them as is, and I know several top name biologists who say the same thing as I do, bleaching sticks is overkill.

Do as you wish, but I am certainly not going to start getting scared of a stick anytime soon.

Sterilizing bio substrate? (no comment, I'd have to ban myself)

[Terranaut]

when I set up a bioactive substrate, the substrate itself is soaked and heated, to sterilize it, then I add various arthropods depending on the exact setup.

infact in the UK, reptiles are far rarer than the US, chances are lower of any of the said parasites et al, being present - that doesnt mean that they arnt there

imo it is good practice, and learning good practice is what people should do when they start....you can cut corners later on, once you have experience and are able to identify problems and their causes before they become critical.




you stated that pulse and dimmer thermostats cause snakes to become inactive, you infered that snakes require a specific tempreture, and once they find it, they wont move, neither of these things are true, and both suggestions imply a misunderstanding of thermoregulation.





grow up.

Stay on topic. If you wish to discuss it start your own thread.
Show me examples of materials in a tree cut from a private yard where a snake became ill or died from it. This is not corner cutting....it is not wasting my time doing something that is not required. Do you wash prey? Do you filter the air in the enclosure? Do you bath your snakes in distilled water?
I do none of this and have never had a snake with a fungal, parasitic or any other infection that wasn't there when I rescued it.
I have had wood mites in an enclosure before...that's it.
I do not understand why you would bleech/bake dirt and then add bugs to it. Kinda like clear cutting a forest to grow some trees IMHO ???

[formica]

myself and a significant number of experienced people disagree with you. get over it.

and if you dont want other things brought up, then perhaps you should leave those topics out of the thread in the first place. dont expect me not to retort when you attempt to discredit me.

[Terranaut]

myself and a significant number of experienced people disagree with you. get over it.

and if you dont want other things brought up, then perhaps you should leave those topics out of the thread in the first place. dont expect me not to retort when you attempt to discredit me.

Get over what? I still see no evidence to prove there are silent killers in my wood. Please enlighten me. Also I am not a mod so I will say I think it is stupid to kill all the bacteria in soil just to add your own.

[CK SandBoas]

Have to say, I have two thick Branches I cut off two trees in my backyard, one's in my Grey Banded King's Enclosure, and one's in my Royal's Enclosure, and the most I did was just run them under water, and let dry, and then I placed them in their enclosures....No bleaching necessary..... or needed.

Just my own personal experience, take it as you will...

[KORBIN5895]

myself and a significant number of experienced people disagree with you. get over it.

and if you dont want other things brought up, then perhaps you should leave those topics out of the thread in the first place. dont expect me not to retort when you attempt to discredit me.

Who are these experienced people? You always claim people support you and your theories but you never supply actual proof.

[Terranaut]

So I darted through this at work trying not to get caught ;)
The more I read your bit about soaking and sterilizing dirt the more I ask myself ," do you actually even have bioactive substrate?" If the organisms you add need the micro organisms you kill off to feed on, how do your setups actually have thrive? Wouldn't this be the same as killing alk of the minnows in a pond before stocking it with trout. Without the indigenous minnows the trout will die so why do it? Please discuss. Again if you can give me proof that your advice here is solid I will be glad to accept it but all of this in this thread seems way out there and I see no reason to introduce chemicals over normal natural organisms in any enclosure.

[formica]

Who are these experienced people? You always claim people support you and your theories but you never supply actual proof.


if you bothered to read the thread, several have already chimed in.

the fact that you are incapable of reading anything other than that which enables your negative behavior, proves that your true interest in this thread, has nothing to do with caring for reptiles.

[formica]

So I darted through this at work trying not to get caught ;)
The more I read your bit about soaking and sterilizing dirt the more I ask myself ," do you actually even have bioactive substrate?" If the organisms you add need the micro organisms you kill off to feed on, how do your setups actually have thrive? Wouldn't this be the same as killing alk of the minnows in a pond before stocking it with trout. Without the indigenous minnows the trout will die so why do it? Please discuss. Again if you can give me proof that your advice here is solid I will be glad to accept it but all of this in this thread seems way out there and I see no reason to introduce chemicals over normal natural organisms in any enclosure.

Bactria repopulates substrates very quickly. different types form at different times, as the various compounds break down in the soil, it takes time to reach the perfect balance - taking soil straight out of the ground, and putting it in a reptile enclosure, with a different set of environmental parameters, completely destroys the balance, it will readjust itself certainly, but personally I prefer to start with a blank canvas that I can monitor and adjust as needed - just as anyone with an Aquarium would do. its called Cycling.

if you knew anything about bio active substrates, you would know that these processes take place, and starting with a sterile substrate is not an issue, and removes the possibility of inadvertently introducing creatures which shouldnt be there.

[Terranaut]

Bactria repopulates substrates very quickly. different types form at different times, as the various compounds break down in the soil, it takes time to reach the perfect balance - taking soil straight out of the ground, and putting it in a reptile enclosure, with a different set of environmental parameters, completely destroys the balance, it will readjust itself certainly, but personally I prefer to start with a blank canvas that I can monitor and adjust as needed - just as anyone with an Aquarium would do. its called Cycling.

if you knew anything about bio active substrates, you would know that these processes take place
So now you presume I know nothing about "these processes". Of course I know about bacteria growth or I would not be asking why you choose to kill yours off. Won't controlling the other materials within the viv as well as environment stimulate the growth or death of the organisms within the soil? I have never heard of anyone wanting to start with a " clean slate" before. No need to rude yet again and tell me I know nothing. You seem to think you know everything so this is why I am asking. I have also had fish in the past and never once did I consider boiling the water before introducing it into my tank and I certainly never added chemicals to it.

So I still am not sold. Still waiting for evidence of the need for this. Still wondering how you know what I know or do not know.
Still wondering how you can come off so rudely again and again and not expect the same in return?

[KORBIN5895]

The only experienced keeper saying they do it is shaunyboy. The remainder of your supporters are extremely unknown quantities. Good try though. I commend you on your efforts to fabricate the truth and support.

[formica]

you tell me I do not know what I am talking about, and that I am talking nonsense, and expect a civil reply? not going to happen. quite happy to discuss all sides of a topics, but I will not put up with people telling me I am talking nonsense simply because their opinions differ.

[formica]

The only experienced keeper saying they do it is shaunyboy. The remainder of your supporters are extremely unknown quantities. Good try though. I commend you on your efforts to fabricate the truth and support.

another brilliant contribution to the thread, you really are a valuable member of this forum. have a gold star.

[Terranaut]

you tell me I do not know what I am talking about, and that I am talking nonsense, and expect a civil reply? not going to happen. quite happy to discuss all sides of a topics, but I will not put up with people telling me I am talking nonsense simply because their opinions differ.

So you mean like you did to me in the thermostat thread?....hypocrite

[formica]

So you mean like you did to me in the thermostat thread?....hypocrite

you told people that a pulse and dimmer thermostat causes inactivity in snakes, that they seek out a specific tempreture at all times and then stay there, ignoring the fact that snakes require diffrent tempretures to operate diffrent parts of their physiology - I pointed out that this was incorrect and that you had misunderstood thermoregulation - if you want to take offense to that information, and turn it into a personal insult, when it was no such thing, thats up to you.

[KORBIN5895]

another brilliant contribution to the thread, you really are a valuable member of this forum. have a gold star.

Well at least one of us is..... Keep reading and learning and someday you may be able to actually contribute.

[Terranaut]

I just skimmed the thread so if I repeat anyone..sorry.
First off a cheap thermostat is better than none so please get one $25 will buy you what you need. I have one of those heat mats and wide open without control will get very hot. I have not tested it but I would gueas well over 100º. Typically the pulse propotional thermostats are higher quality but wether or not a perfect temp is better for your snake is just not true. Nature doesn't hold a perfect temp nor does your snake hold a perfect temp. If this was the case you could set it and never have your snake move. If the snake can find the perfect temp in it's enclosure you have controlled enough. I hate it when people say the pulse are better for your snake. This simply isn't true. Higher quality is better but tighter temp control is not required. Actually it can cause your snake to just sit there with little effort to thermoregulate. Or in other words....no excersise.

why are pulse better than on/off? an on/off thermostat can vary by +/- 5C, this can be as much as the entire tempreture gradient of the enclosure - thats why they are better, if it is set correctly, then the gradient in the enclosure will be correct, and the snake will no just sit in one place, this is misunderstanding what thermoregulation is about, snakes do not need or want to be at the same tempreture all the time

So I guess you can't read either. I specifically said the opposite and that a snake doesn't want to be the same temp and giving it a range is best. You told me 3 times now I have a lacknof understanding about thermoregulation. Seriously? What is wrong with you? You screw up my words and tell me off....I let it go...you post this crap today and I ask for more solid facts....you blow me off again and tell me yet again I don't know what I am talking about then spout off about difference of opinion?
Man o man....your way off planet.

[infernalis]

I chainsaw my limbs right from living trees, never had any problems.

If the wood is rotting, and the woodpeckers have gone nuts on it, leave it in the woods.

Apple, Ash, Maple, Oak and other hard woods are likely solid as a rock, so there is not going to be anything to worry about.

I even placed a bunch of living brush in my cage until the leaves wilt.

Huge zoo enclosures with live trees in them are NOT washed in bleach..

[LadyWraith]

I don't get the sterilization thing either TBH. I would really genuinely appreciate some sources on how using substrate and other objects from outside can be detrimental to our captive reptiles. I've been reading up on bioactive and have not found one instance of problems caused from this. I'm interested if there really are instances of this. It doesn't seem logical for this reason: sterilize substrate, kill bacteria and other stuff. Put in enclosure and add bugs that naturally live in soil and carry same bacteria and other stuff previously erradicated. Substrate now reinfested. Is this not correct?

[infernalis]

I don't get the sterilization thing either TBH. I would really genuinely appreciate some sources on how using substrate and other objects from outside can be detrimental to our captive reptiles. I've been reading up on bioactive and have not found one instance of problems caused from this. I'm interested if there really are instances of this. It doesn't seem logical for this reason: sterilize substrate, kill bacteria and other stuff. Put in enclosure and add bugs that naturally live in soil and carry same bacteria and other stuff previously erradicated. Substrate now reinfested. Is this not correct?

Yes, you are correct... it's asinine really.

If there was so much to fear, we would be seeing carcasses when we field herp.

[formica]

the athropods I add into bioactive substrates, do not come out of the ground, they are bred in sterile substrates themselves, except for the food they live on.

Yes the point of cycling is to 'reinfest' the substrate, but, without the fungi, molds, parasites, bacteria & viri which live freely in the wild, instead the aim is to allow only what is needed to grow, just as you would not take water from a wild lake to fill your aquarium, in order to avoid other things which may be detrimental.


the reason you dont see reptile carcasses is because ants, wasps, maggots, arthropods and a multitude of other creatures dispose of them very quickly. infernalis you really do seem under the impression that reptiles are indestructible, but they are not, they are just susceptible to all these organisms as every other creature on the planet. I can assure you, that if it wasnt for ants and the like, the world would be piled high with the carcasses of animals, and a plenty of reptiles too, a significant number of which, in their natural habitat, with perfect temps and humidity, dying from bacterial infections, parasitic infestations and an endless list of other things which can be prevented in captivity.

[KORBIN5895]

the athropods I add into bioactive substrates, do not come out of the ground, they are bred in sterile substrates themselves, except for the food they live on.

Yes the point of cycling is to 'reinfest' the substrate, but, without the fungi, molds, parasites, bacteria & viri which live freely in the wild, instead the aim is to allow only what is needed to grow, just as you would not take water from a wild lake to fill your aquarium, in order to avoid other things which may be detrimental.


the reason you dont see reptile carcasses is because ants, wasps, maggots, arthropods and a multitude of other creatures dispose of them very quickly. infernalis you really do seem under the impression that reptiles are indestructible, but they are not, they are just susceptible to all these organisms as every other creature on the planet. I can assure you, that if it wasnt for ants and the like, the world would be piled high with the carcasses of animals, and a plenty of reptiles too, a significant number of which, in their natural habitat, with perfect temps and humidity, dying from bacterial infections, parasitic infestations and an endless list of other things which can be prevented in captivity.

Mother nature never provides perfect temps and humidity. She fluctuates something fierce. You do know that right? Or maybe there in formicaland mother nature is running a high end t-stat......

[KORBIN5895]

I just skimmed the thread so if I repeat anyone..sorry.
First off a cheap thermostat is better than none so please get one $25 will buy you what you need. I have one of those heat mats and wide open without control will get very hot. I have not tested it but I would gueas well over 100º. Typically the pulse propotional thermostats are higher quality but wether or not a perfect temp is better for your snake is just not true. Nature doesn't hold a perfect temp nor does your snake hold a perfect temp. If this was the case you could set it and never have your snake move. If the snake can find the perfect temp in it's enclosure you have controlled enough. I hate it when people say the pulse are better for your snake. This simply isn't true. Higher quality is better but tighter temp control is not required. Actually it can cause your snake to just sit there with little effort to thermoregulate. Or in other words....no excersise.

why are pulse better than on/off? an on/off thermostat can vary by +/- 5C, this can be as much as the entire tempreture gradient of the enclosure - thats why they are better, if it is set correctly, then the gradient in the enclosure will be correct, and the snake will no just sit in one place, this is misunderstanding what thermoregulation is about, snakes do not need or want to be at the same tempreture all the time


So I guess you can't read either. I specifically said the opposite and that a snake doesn't want to be the same temp and giving it a range is best. You told me 3 times now I have a lacknof understanding about thermoregulation. Seriously? What is wrong with you? You screw up my words and tell me off....I let it go...you post this crap today and I ask for more solid facts....you blow me off again and tell me yet again I don't know what I am talking about then spout off about difference of opinion?
Man o man....your way off planet.


Like I said formicaland...

[infernalis]

infernalis you really do seem under the impression that reptiles are indestructible, but they are not, they are just susceptible to all these organisms as every other creature on the planet. I can assure you, that if it wasnt for ants and the like, the world would be piled high with the carcasses of animals, and a plenty of reptiles too, a significant number of which, in their natural habitat, with perfect temps and humidity, dying from bacterial infections, parasitic infestations and an endless list of other things which can be prevented in captivity.

Let's see... out of every organism on planet earth, what group has evolved the LEAST over millions of years?? Squamata. ;)

Do we keep cows in sterile barns? do we keep pigs in sterile.. oh never mind...

[formica]

Mother nature never provides perfect temps and humidity. She fluctuates something fierce. You do know that right? Or maybe there in formicaland mother nature is running a high end t-stat......

of course temperatures and humidity fluctuate, and animals have evolved to deal with those fluctuations, and when fluctuations occur, animals have a vast habitat in the wild in which to search out the temperature and humidity they need at that time. infact many tropical zones are far more stable, temperature and humidity wise, than an on/off thermostat can provide.

they do not have this opportunity of searching vast areas in captivity, they are solely reliant on us provide the right temperatures in a confined space.

If a snake requires 35C, but is frequently presented with 40C, because of an inaccurate on/off thermostat, then it is causing problems, and the same goes if that temperature then drops off to 30C within 20 minutes, which it frequently does with cheap thermostats, in the wild far more stable tempretures can be found - when the stable tempreture it requires, are not available, the enzymes it relies on to digest food are not working efficiently, and subsequently the animal is under stress.

for temperate species this is not such an issue, they are far more tolerant of temperature swings, their physiology is able to cope well with them - tropical species are far less tolerant, and as most snake lovers, will eventually progress from corns etc, to tropical species, I believe it is important to install best practice from the outset - not wait until an animal has to deal with unstable environmental conditions that it has not evolved to cope with.


Higher quality is better but tighter temp control is not required. Actually it can cause your snake to just sit there with little effort to thermoregulate. Or in other words....no excersise.

so....you said the opposite, did you.

[formica]

Let's see... out of every organism on planet earth, what group has evolved the LEAST over millions of years?? Squamata. ;)

Do we keep cows in sterile barns? do we keep pigs in sterile.. oh never mind....

excuse me? you disagree with a point, so you resort to personal attacks? excellent moderation infernalis. excellent.




a forum is for discussion, and if you cannot handle opposing opinions, then you have no business being on a forum, let alone a moderator.

[infernalis]

excuse me? you disagree with a point, so you resort to personal attacks? excellent moderation infernalis. excellent.

a forum is for discussion, and if you cannot handle opposing opinions, then you have no business being on a forum, let alone a moderator.

Read closely as I am about to pay a compliment, you handled THAT very maturely, More maturely than I did. Kudos...

Now, YOU also have to open up your mind a bit too.

Back on topic... Do zoos sterilize those big trees in the displays?? Maybe living in the country has changed my views, I drink from the creek, and if I drop a hot dog at a BBQ I pick it up and finish it.

This entire thread has spiraled out of control.

[formica]

Read closely as I am about to pay a compliment, you handled THAT very maturely, More maturely than I did. Kudos...

Now, YOU also have to open up your mind a bit too.

Back on topic... Do zoos sterilize those big trees in the displays?? Maybe living in the country has changed my views, I drink from the creek, and if I drop a hot dog at a BBQ I pick it up and finish it.

This entire thread has spiraled out of control.


I have no idea if they do or not, I have never worked in a zoo, I would hazard a guess and say that some do, and some do not, just as some on here do not consider it to be necessary, and some do.

would I pick up a dropped hot dog and eat it? well, I would put it back on the bbq for a few seconds first.

[KORBIN5895]

I have yet to see an enclosure fluctuate 10°c in 20 minutes... Me thinks you telling fairy tales again.

[infernalis]

I have no idea if they do or not, I have never worked in a zoo, I would hazard a guess and say that some do, and some do not, just as some on here do not consider it to be necessary, and some do.

would I pick up a dropped hot dog and eat it? well, I would put it back on the bbq for a few seconds first.

We have different standards, I have spent my whole life living in an unspoiled area where I can drink from the stream, pick berries and eat them unwashed, etc..

Let's just say my water never caught fire.

[Terranaut]

I have yet to see an enclosure fluctuate 10°c in 20 minutes... Me thinks you telling fairy tales again.

Maybe he keeps his enclosures in a snow bank?
I also wonder why a snake would not just move from this 40º area to a cooler part of the tank, thus causing no problems. Set at 32 will drop to 31 and rise to 33. Hardly life threatening.

[Mikoh4792]

I guess it depends where you are getting your stuff then... because I live in a suburban/urban area where everything is sprayed and theres garbage everywhere. I would never put anything from outside directly into my animals enclosures. In Wayne's case he lives in an untouched area where things are "natural" so I guess washing the wood/rocks isn't necessary.

[shaunyboy]

the reason i sterilise my wood is NOT for the benifit of the snake.....

i don't want to bring beasties,fungises,etc, from the forrest into my house

cheers shaun

[formica]

I have yet to see an enclosure fluctuate 10°c in 20 minutes... Me thinks you telling fairy tales again.

who said anything about enclosure tempretures? are you measuring ambient tempretures or what? stop taking my comments out of context.

have you actually measured the temperature of a heat mat when switched on and off, have you timed its temperature drop? what about when attached to an on/off thermostat? do you have any idea what temperature a heat mat reaches, when on a simple on/off thermostat, before it switches off? how about the temp required to switch it on? have you measured it? I have.

me thinks you are nothing more than a bully, with little to offer this forum apart from insults and chest beating. neither of which I find impressive or intimidating.

[formica]

what annoys me most about this thread, and many like it, is that there are certain members who insist that unless everyone agrees with them, they have the right to be rude and insulting - and most of the time, those who disagree with them, are the only ones prepared to accept 2 diffrent view points which both have merit.

some of you need to get over yourselves. its really no wonder this forum has such a bad reputation.

[Mikoh4792]

This forum has a bad reputation? (I ask in all seriousness, i haven't been a part of many forums)

[Kid Boa]

MY GAWD peoples, this is not helping the OP. This was ALL about a "STICK" LOL.

Basically Cosmicowl, Provided you get you branch from a clean area (forest or back yard) and not from a toxic waste bump, you are fine to use a stick or rock from the out side without sterilizing it.

On the other had, if you choose to do so, this is fine as well.

I hope THIS helps and ends the four pages of "STICK" arguing. :)

[Terranaut]

I have accurately measured all of my heat sources with a clibrated temp gun. If you use a uth and mount the probe directly above it it will not get hotter that the range it keeps its temps within. For example a uth set to 35º using a "cheap on off thermostat" will not even hit 37º and will not drop much below 34º. If either temp is not the desirable temp for your snake it will move. I also measured my rhp in such away because the probe is not a few mm off the heat source surface and is mounted on the closest surface to the rhp. Even when on which is full on and not proportioned it never got to hot to touch. Now the actual surface temp of an rhp might drop more than 10º in 20 min but the temp of the surface heated by the rhp will not and again will stay within the operational range of the thermostat. So again saying this fluctuation is a problem for the snake is simply not true.
Kevin is not being a bully here...he is just calling it as he sees it with no filter on.

[Kid Boa]

what annoys me most about this thread, and many like it, is that there are certain members who insist that unless everyone agrees with them, they have the right to be rude and insulting - and most of the time, those who disagree with them, are the only ones prepared to accept 2 diffrent view points which both have merit.

some of you need to get over yourselves. its really no wonder this forum has such a bad reputation.

Your going to get this in ALL forums.

I have never seen any where, where this forums has a bad rep, as a matter of fact, from what I have read, this is one of the better reptile forums.

[shaunyboy]

i honestly would say.....

this is one of the most helpful forums out there,and bullying ain't tollerated on here...

imo Wayne and Alessia are very fair mods and boots a decent owner

and most of our members are decent helpfull folk

try asking questions on the largest UK forum...

and they will tear you a new arse half the time lol :yes::yes:

or go against the grain with mods like KATO and ALL the mods stick together and you get banned,look what happened to good knowledgable folk like Christian Castille on a UK forum...!!

cheers shaun

[formica]

i honestly would say.....

this is one of the most helpful forums out there,and bullying ain't tollerated on here...

imo Wayne and Alessia are very fair mods and boots a decent owner

and most of our members are decent helpfull folk

try asking questions on the largest UK forum...

and they will tear you a new arse half the time lol :yes::yes:

or go against the grain with mods like KATO and ALL the mods stick together and you get banned,look what happened to good knowledgable folk like Christian Castille on a UK forum...!!

cheers shaun

i agree with most of this, and its why i have stuck around on this forum, despite the issues I outlined, and I agree about the mods too, despite the little spat on this thread which is now deleted.



as for ssnakess bad rep....well, i've lurked on many reptile forums for some years now, and the same names crop up time and time again; having become an active member myself this year, i am dismayed to find it wasn't just rumor.




way off topic now. I have nothing more to add. I hope that future discussions on any topic where people disagree, can be conducted in an intelligent manner, rather than thru insults and genital displays, which do a major disservice to the community as a whole, and certainly do nothing to create a useful discussion which people can learn from.

[shaunyboy]

there are spats and at times all out wars on here,but most get resolved and forgotten about and we all go back to being friends :yes:

i have found that constant wrong information,or people ignoring good solid advice and causing reptiles uneccesary grief,or being an as*hole are jumped on quickly here (thats NOT aimed at anyone,i'm speaking generally)

but for the most part imo this is a good forum:)

cheers shaun

[marvelfreak]

what annoys me most about this thread, and many like it, is that there are certain members who insist that unless everyone agrees with them, they have the right to be rude and insulting - and most of the time, those who disagree with them, are the only ones prepared to accept 2 diffrent view points which both have merit.

some of you need to get over yourselves. its really no wonder this forum has such a bad reputation.

This is so you. What are you complaining about your the number one offender. You are always talking down to other like they are stupid when they don't agree with you. You give poor advice at best. I have yet to ever see you back up anything with actual proof. Like a web site or article to back up anything.


as for ssnakess bad rep....well, i've lurked on many reptile forums for some years now, and the same names crop up time and time again; having become an active member myself this year, i am dismayed to find it wasn't just rumor.


What names and what site lets see links. Try something new and show us proof. Personally i think your full of crap and just make stuff up to argue your point.

[KORBIN5895]

who said anything about enclosure tempretures? are you measuring ambient tempretures or what? stop taking my comments out of context.

.

Oh I don't know who said that....... Maybe you?

.

If a snake requires 35C, but is frequently presented with 40C, because of an inaccurate on/off thermostat, then it is causing problems, and the same goes if that temperature then drops off to 30C within 20 minutes, which it frequently does with cheap thermostats, in the wild far more stable tempretures can be found - when the stable tempreture it requires, are not available, the enzymes it relies on to digest food are not working efficiently, and subsequently the animal is under stress.

[Terranaut]

Round and round we go.
Please practice what you preach. Don't like getting treated like a doucheddon't slag others in the same way especially in the same post. Chuck said it best so far. You tal down to people on here and get upset that they didn't like it. Strange. And yes, other than exagerated falsehoods I see no facts to back up anything in this thread. Then you complain about everyone being wrong and then say we need to be tolerant of a difference of opinion. I don't get which side your on....yours?

[lady_bug87]

This thread is hilarious. Formica you are not only ridiculous but soo full of crap I'm amazed your handle isn't 'loo'

You claim superiority because you sterilize everything. What if I told you that you're actually doing it wrong? Wrong temps wrong amount of time... basically you're just making more.

How To Sterilize Soil - Urban Farm Online (http://www.urbanfarmonline.com/urban-gardening/backyard-gardening/sterilize-soil.aspx)

Start Seed and Transplants in Sterilized Soil (http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Soil/sterile.htm)

These say 180-220°C for 30 so basically at 65° youre doing nothing.

And in case you are a visual learner..

[formica]

Terranaught I did not complain about anything, I said what I do, I said why i do it, I gave the reasons behind it, and I said quite clearly that others have diffrent opinions, and if they have the experience to deal with the consequences should they ocur, then fine. you on the other hand, along with other members who wish to be seen as some kind of alpha male, have decieded that because you disagree with me, you have some right to go on the offensive, and then turn it around on me. this is nonsense, you, Korbin, and everyone can go jump as far as I am concerned.

As for me giving poor advice - well, you are the one telling people they do not need thermostats.


Lady_bug, 65C is enough to kill 99.99% of bacteria, virii, parasites and virtually any other organism living in the wood, it is the tempreture recomended for water (plus chemicals) in hospitals to ensure that surfaces are sterilized. The list you have given in the chart above suggests higher tempretures, from 69C, I would not dispute this, but most are safe at 65C as recommended by various administrations - perhaps this has changed recently, something I will look into, however I always use water hotter than 65C anyway, so it makes little diffrence to what I actually do.

65C - not Fahrenheit, before you try and act all brainy, perhaps you should try the basics first, and read things properly. and of course heating at higher temperatures is better....surely that is just common sense? however heating to the point where organic compounds start to break down in high numbers is damaging and can render good soil, useless. imo heating to the point where most things are killed, but low enough to maintain the composition of the soil, is the most reasonable approach.

[formica]

TWhat names and what site lets see links. Try something new and show us proof. Personally i think your full of crap and just make stuff up to argue your point.

you really think I have time to waste trawling thru the net to find all the negative comments I have seen about ssnakess members? lol

[lady_bug87]

Maybe you should learn how to read.

I gave you THREE sources that say you're wrong.

65 does NOT sterilize so it may kill stuff but not all stuff so if you want to jump on people for not sterilizing just realize that what You're doing isn't sterilizing either

Furthermore unless you're taking cultures and samples and testing it there is no way to know it's killing anything so stop being so sure of yourself

[lady_bug87]

This thread is hilarious. Formica you are not only ridiculous but soo full of crap I'm amazed your handle isn't 'loo'

You claim superiority because you sterilize everything. What if I told you that you're actually doing it wrong? Wrong temps wrong amount of time... basically you're just making more.

How To Sterilize Soil - Urban Farm Online (http://www.urbanfarmonline.com/urban-gardening/backyard-gardening/sterilize-soil.aspx)

Start Seed and Transplants in Sterilized Soil (http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Soil/sterile.htm)

These say 180-220°C for 30 so basically at 65° youre doing nothing.

And in case you are a visual learner..


Sorry that should say °F

[formica]

63C for 30 minutes, is the accepted pasteurization method for both the UK and US governments

2 other methods exist, 72C for 15 seconds, 138C for 2 seconds, neither is suitable for logs, soil or an other medium which cannot be liquefied.


I suggest you look it up on a scientific or government website, rather than a random gardening website from google - as I said, higher temperatures can be used, but you run the serious risk of damaging the organic compounds.



and btw I made no claim to superiority, people choose to take offense simply because I have a method they disagree with and am able to back up that method with good information, people dont like being told that their are good reasons for something they disagree with. well, then whats the point of them being involved in a discussion if they think like that? we shouldnt do things simply because we think we should do them, they should be thought out.

[marvelfreak]

This thread is hilarious. Formica you are not only ridiculous but soo full of crap I'm amazed your handle isn't 'loo'

You claim superiority because you sterilize everything. What if I told you that you're actually doing it wrong? Wrong temps wrong amount of time... basically you're just making more.

How To Sterilize Soil - Urban Farm Online (http://www.urbanfarmonline.com/urban-gardening/backyard-gardening/sterilize-soil.aspx)

Start Seed and Transplants in Sterilized Soil (http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Soil/sterile.htm)

These say 180-220°C for 30 so basically at 65° youre doing nothing.

And in case you are a visual learner..

Look how Lori showed proof to back up her point.



As for me giving poor advice - well, you are the one telling people they do not need thermostats.


I didn't say you don't need them. I what i said was the ones i use will not get above 95 degrees without a thermostat. Here's that thing called proof again.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/python-curtus/102861-first-blood-2.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by formica http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/images/grunged/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/python-curtus/102861-first-blood-2.html#post882990)
105F is not a massively high temperature for a heat mat, that is the kind of temperature I would expect to see without a thermostat, and that is why I always recommend a thermostat - perhaps there are brands which are lower power, or lower efficiency, but its really not worth the risk

My response.
The kind i use will not go above 95 degrees with out a thermostat. Plus with Bloods you have to be extra care of temperature spikes and drops. Baby Bloods can be super touchy. I learn that the hard way years ago. My first three Bloods didn't live pass 3 months. Until they hit around 6 months to a year you want to have everything perfect. As they get older they become a little more tolerable of mistakes.




you really think I have time to waste trawling thru the net to find all the negative comments I have seen about ssnakess members? lol

Yet again no proof. Typical for you. You always give some lame reason not to show proof. If i was debating with some one and could show proof to back up what i was saying and make them look like a donkey rear end i do it in a heart beat. But every time your ask to show proof to back up what your saying you never show any. That's why everyone thinks your full of crap. So please prove me and all of them wrong. I have no problem with admitting when i am wrong. So if you can show proof of these negative comments then why not prove me wrong. I myself don't think there are any.

[Mikoh4792]

Formica no hard feelings against you but marvel is right. To say that it's a waste of time is no excuse to not back up your arguments. Might as well not argue at all.... because I've seen other people here such as Lady_bug take the time to bring evidence into her arguments, why shouldn't you? It shows respect to the person you are debating.

[Aaron_S]

63C for 30 minutes, is the accepted pasteurization method for both the UK and US governments

2 other methods exist, 72C for 15 seconds, 138C for 2 seconds, neither is suitable for logs, soil or an other medium which cannot be liquefied.


I suggest you look it up on a scientific or government website, rather than a random gardening website from google - as I said, higher temperatures can be used, but you run the serious risk of damaging the organic compounds.



and btw I made no claim to superiority, people choose to take offense simply because I have a method they disagree with and am able to back up that method with good information, people dont like being told that their are good reasons for something they disagree with. well, then whats the point of them being involved in a discussion if they think like that? we shouldnt do things simply because we think we should do them, they should be thought out.

Are you done crying about things?

[Terranaut]

As for me giving poor advice - well, you are the one telling people they do not need thermostats.


.

Please quote this from anywhere. Drive the nail home buddy. Now you have brought the story telling to new heights. We ask you for some evidence to prove your theories and you provide nothing time and time again. You just make stuff up and post away. There isn't a single member supporting you here. I guess we all have no idea what we are talking about. You knock the site...the people on it... the moderators...and the contribute what? Nothing. Your holier than thou attitude stinks and you claim we are not accepting of your ideas but have belittled anyone whos opinion differs from yours. Your out of line and out of control with your bashing....but hey it's all of us who are being rediculous here right?

[lady_bug87]

63C for 30 minutes, is the accepted pasteurization method for both the UK and US governments

2 other methods exist, 72C for 15 seconds, 138C for 2 seconds, neither is suitable for logs, soil or an other medium which cannot be liquefied.


I suggest you look it up on a scientific or government website, rather than a random gardening website from google - as I said, higher temperatures can be used, but you run the serious risk of damaging the organic compounds.



and btw I made no claim to superiority, people choose to take offense simply because I have a method they disagree with and am able to back up that method with good information, people dont like being told that their are good reasons for something they disagree with. well, then whats the point of them being involved in a discussion if they think like that? we shouldnt do things simply because we think we should do them, they should be thought out.

If my sources aren't good enough let's see yours

[marvelfreak]

Please quote this from anywhere. Drive the nail home buddy. Now you have brought the story telling to new heights. We ask you for some evidence to prove your theories and you provide nothing time and time again. You just make stuff up and post away. There isn't a single member supporting you here. I guess we all have no idea what we are talking about. You knock the site...the people on it... the moderators...and the contribute what? Nothing. Your holier than thou attitude stinks and you claim we are not accepting of your ideas but have belittled anyone whos opinion differs from yours. Your out of line and out of control with your bashing....but hey it's all of us who are being rediculous here right?


That quote is directed at me. Which i just post the proof of what i actual said. Pretty cool the whole showing proof thing. lol Guess some know how to do it, and some don't. Kind of like common since, some have it and some don't.

[Terranaut]

This is getting comical. Although I do like the enclosures he makes and his threads on the builds are pretty decent he is still so bullheaded he can't even see it is all him and not us :(

[formica]

why dont you look it up for yourself? even if I where to provide links, I would still get abuse and nonsense, so dont expect me to waste my time looking for things that you cant be bothered to find out for yourself. its all there on the internet for you to find, if you can be bothered.

[Terranaut]

Well other members have had the respect to share their opinions akong side proof or evidence to show why they have that opinion. You couldn't be bothered? Or can't find it?

[lady_bug87]

why dont you look it up for yourself? even if I where to provide links, I would still get abuse and nonsense, so dont expect me to waste my time looking for things that you cant be bothered to find out for yourself. its all there on the internet for you to find, if you can be bothered.

So YOU make claims, swear that they're true then I find sources to say you're wrong then you tell me that my sources aren't good enough and so you want ME to find more sources to validate YOUR info.

Ridiculous.

And I highly doubt nongovernmental organizations have stricter rules on sterilization than actual government.

You are incapable of any kind of contribution.

[marvelfreak]

why dont you look it up for yourself? even if I where to provide links, I would still get abuse and nonsense, so dont expect me to waste my time looking for things that you cant be bothered to find out for yourself. its all there on the internet for you to find, if you can be bothered.
I think your flat out lying about people making negative comments about this site and some of the people. That why you would even tell us the site so we could look it up. If i am wrong prove it and if your right will change my avatar and title to a jackass.

[infernalis]

Your going to get this in ALL forums.

I have never seen any where, where this forums has a bad rep, as a matter of fact, from what I have read, this is one of the better reptile forums.

The best.. more traffic than Kingsnake.

[formica]

look up Pasteurization, then decide for yourself whether I am making it up. I aint gona waste my time trying to educate you, educate yourselves. your conjecture is not doing anyone any favours.

[infernalis]

Now this cluster fudge shall be laid to rest......