She's trying to give me a heart attack...ideas?

[maroongrad]

This one has me stumped, and my heart going a million beats a minute.

Got up, fed the pets, went in to check on the black racer. Picked up the big hide, and she was ON HER BACK. All white coiled-up belly.

I picked her up, doing the "OMG SHE DIED!" thought process only to have her look at me like I am an idiot and act just entirely fine. She has plenty of water, it's fresh, she doesn't appear dehydrated, she is acting fine right now in my lap and checking everything out. Maybe, maybe slightly listless or with slightly less strength. Maybe. No shaking, no tremors to indicate dehydration. She's not cold nor hot to the touch. Her head is up, she's watching everything around her including this screen.

Do snakes just occasionally decide to freak their owners out? I have NEVER had one do that! Should I worry? Is this one of those "they will sometimes do this" events?

[Terranaut]

What are you feeding it?

[Mikoh4792]

whats her substrate?

edit: maybe you flipped her over by accident while lifting the hide?

[maroongrad]

She's eating superworms and crickets. The substrate in the hide is damp spaghnum moss, she's getting ready to shed. Rest of the cage is white shredded paper. Water is fresh, she pooped out some urates into it yesterday. I didn't flip her over when I lifted the hide, though I wish that was the answer! She does seem slightly listless, and I put her in the big water dish when I put her back in. She pulled herself right out of the water, then just sat there.

No tremors, no shaking, no stiffness, and she's slow in the mornings anyways. If I hadn't seen her on her back, I'd say she was just fine.

All I can think of is that she overheated while she slept. With the damp spaghnum moss, the hide is trapping heat more than before. It has a warm end and a cool end, and she was close to the warm side.

She just has not done well since we got her. I'm beginning to wonder if there wasn't even more damage than we knew of from the shipping and the reptile shop. The vet already gave her a vitamin B shot and a tube feeding last week. :(

[Mikoh4792]

are you not controlling the heat with a thermostat?

[maroongrad]

no, I have a range of heat instead. The lamp is placed under it at an angle at one corner, where the surface temperature is in the 90's for a small area. Then it spreads out to a larger area in the 80's. The back half (it's a big cage for a little snake!) is about room temperature. The hide is about ten inches long; the front part is on the warm area, the back part is on the cooler area. I used a block under the cage to make sure that the heat under it stays in only half the cage; it can't circulate back to warm the cooler area. Generally she moves back and forth throughout the day. Sometimes she's curled up in a warm area, sometimes she's by the window, sometimes she's in the back corner, sometimes she's moving all over the place!

The only change was the damp spaghnum moss two days ago. I have a second hide that's small and she isn't using over in the cooler area, and she burrows in the substrate as well.

[wrecker45]

Should a black racer be eating rodents.

[maroongrad]

Not at this size :) She's no bigger around than my pinkie. I did try her on a frozen hopper, and it was just too big, she wasn't interested. Right now, she's at the eating-bugs stage. She's about 18 or so inches long but very slender with a tiny head. The cage, however, is a big 30 gallon container!

[maroongrad]

I just went up and looked, and she's moved to the smaller hide in the "cool" section of her cage. And gave me a dirty look when I picked it up to check on her.

[maroongrad]

Okay. She seems to be fine. She drank out of the little water dish on the cool side, watched me walk to the cage, had her tail in the big warm hide and about half her body in the smaller cooler hide, and did the "you touch me, I bite you" act at me when I picked up the hide to look at her. If I had not seen her on her back, I would not know something had gone wrong.

My best guess at this time is that she curled up to sleep in the warmest area of the hide, and the moist moss trapped more heat than usual, making it slightly too warm. It partly blocks the ends, reducing air circulation. She slept through the slow overheating rather than moving a few inches down to a cooler area, and as a result rolled belly-up.

I pulled her out, she was slightly warmer than usual to the touch, and responding normally very quickly. Now, she seems fine. Drinking, wandering, threatening, etc.

I'm thinking she'll be fine. My heart is no longer going a million beats a minute, either! At night, I'm going to start moving the heat farther away to get the hide down to the 80's inside it. I'm leaving in the moist moss but adding a room humidifier too.

Anyone have any more feedback on this? She wasn't doing the best when we got her and I check on her/handle her each morning and evening. This is the first time in several days that she's had any sort of problem now that we've got her skin infection treated and the humidity consistently higher.

[wrecker45]

See if she will take a pinky.

[maroongrad]

The smallest frozen mice I can get are the hoppers. And I can't locate a place that sells live ones, and am reluctant to feed live due to parasites and other issues (if I knew a breeder for these, I would!). I've kept her on the superworms/crickets with the vet's approval and recommendation but I would like to move her onto mice and such soon. Is there a way to order frozen pinkies and have them arrive frozen? Petco, Petsmart, and a little store by hubby's shop don't carry live pinkies or live hoppers :(

[wrecker45]

Petsmart up here sells frozen pinkies. Ask if they can order some in for you.

[maroongrad]

Wrecker, will do. Thank you, the person I'd asked previously said they didn't, all they had was the hoppers, but now that I know some stores order them in, I'll see if I can get someone in the store that will order them. She's big enough to eat them, that's for sure! Thanks for that information!

[KORBIN5895]

Super worms can cause impaction in many reptiles because their shells are so hard to digest. Also crickets have little nutritional value.

[Valvaren]

Dont people usually just cut the pinkies into bits when the snakes are to large to handle a complete one?

[wrecker45]

Yes but he can only get hoppers. Pinkies should be small enough.

[maroongrad]

Never considered cutting up the hopper. Good to know about the worms and impaction risks, though. I don't know if she'd eat the cut-up hopper if it's not alive or at least not looking alive. Would mealworms, not superworms, work okay? I did get her earthworms (also vet recommended before we ordered her) but they were dead and rotten when we opened the box. :P

Advice for now? Cut-up hoppers (don't know if she'll eat them, but I can try), mealworms not superworms, gut-loaded crickets, or earthworms? Right now, she's got superworms and crickets to choose from and she is eating them, but adding mealworms would be easy. I have plenty.

[MDT]

When I took herpetology class in undergrad we went on several collecting trips. On trip I caught a racer and it feigned death, just like a hognose will. very weird. Don't know if this was similar or yours had something else going on....Glad to hear she's "righted" herself.

[maroongrad]

Thanks, MDT! She wasn't feigning, I think she just overheated herself! I removed some of the moss, pulled the heat away slightly, and she's all over the cage again. She got a little cold today (house temperature went way down) and was curled up in the warmest corner, so I nudged the heat up a bit. She's fine. Bitey and active and all over the place!
:)