Bypassing 8' legal limit?

[ErikBush97]

Is there any permits or license(s) someone can obtain to own something like a Burmese Python, if the legal size limit is 8'?

[exwizard]

That depends on your local laws and ordinances.

[ErikBush97]

That depends on your local laws and ordinances.

No law enforcement agents even know the legal size limit, so I guess no Burm for me :/ No way they'll know if you can obtain those permits/licenses, and other than that, I have no way of finding out

[formica]

Seems a bit odd that a snakes size would be restricted to less than half its potential size by law - what is this regarding, sale and purchase?

I thought that the size limit was regarding safety, ie 8' is considered the safe maximum for a single person to safely work with for some species?

[exwizard]

Some laws ban snakes over a certain size regardless of size potential of any species. For example, here in Des Moines, all snakes over 6' are illegal without a permit. It does not matter what species it is. It just goes to prove the ignorance of lawmakers when they write up this stuff.

[formica]

Some laws ban snakes over a certain size regardless of size potential of any species. For example, here in Des Moines, all snakes over 6' are illegal without a permit. It does not matter what species it is. It just goes to prove the ignorance of lawmakers when they write up this stuff.

does that mean you cant buy a snake over 6'? or when a snake reaches 6' it needs to be put down? or you cant buy a snake which could reach 6'? or?

[exwizard]

That means that once a snake goes over 6', you can't legally keep it without a permit. You either have to find someone in the city with a permit and rehome it there or you need to rehome it outside the city or move out of the city, if you don't have that permit. The problem with getting a permit is that the required class to get it is rarely offered.

[Valvaren]

Here our bylaw is nothing that reaches over 3 meters, theres a size limit on lizards but I don't remember at this point (I think its 2 but I really don't remember) as its something i've never had to look into.

Our law means animals that will reach that limit and surpass it are illegal to sell and own. So basically its illegal to have them at all regardless if they are 2 feet currently. I believe there is something along the lines of "Permits will be issued to people who have demonstrated understanding...." but everyone who ever asked or inquired in the last year or two has been told no permits are being issued for anyone unless they are an accredited zoo.

[dave himself]

I'm glad I'm in Ireland :)

[ErikBush97]

I really could care less about the 8' limit... The only thing that I care about is the fact that if I bought a Burm and I needed to take it to the vet, they probably wouldn't see it...

[mistersprinkles]

I really could care less about the 8' limit... The only thing that I care about is the fact that if I bought a Burm and I needed to take it to the vet, they probably wouldn't see it...

Talk to a few reptile vets in your area. Get to know them. Ask them if "hypothetically", you, their pal, were to bring in a 12' snake, would they treat it?

I imagine that if you don't have a permit and they aren't your friends they'll report you. That's why you have to get on their good side before you ask... Sticky situation if you ask me.

[ErikBush97]

Talk to a few reptile vets in your area. Get to know them. Ask them if "hypothetically", you, their pal, were to bring in a 12' snake, would they treat it?

I imagine that if you don't have a permit and they aren't your friends they'll report you. That's why you have to get on their good side before you ask... Sticky situation if you ask me.

Well I have a friend with Burms and Retics... I'll have to talk to him about it, see what he does or if he has said permit(s)

[MDT]

I really could care less about the 8' limit... The only thing that I care about is the fact that if I bought a Burm and I needed to take it to the vet, they probably wouldn't see it...

So, you're basically disregarding a law (if in fact "over" 8' is regulated) and you're asking a medical professional to possibly have to answer to the state board that oversees the profession and risk sanctions....

This is what gives our hobby a bad name. Thanks.

[ErikBush97]

Well I have a friend with Burms and Retics... I'll have to talk to him about it, see what he does or if he has said permit(s)

So, you're basically disregarding a law (if in fact "over" 8' is regulated) and you're asking a medical professional to possibly have to answer to the state board that oversees the profession and risk sanctions....

This is what gives our hobby a bad name. Thanks.

Obviously you missed that... Or just disregarded it. I'm trying to do it the right way.. I am not going to risk it if I can't obtain a permit to own a Burmese Python.

I have common sense... I'd likely be reported by the employees or customers if I brought in a huge Burm for care.... Who'd be stupid enough to do that??? It's stupid people who caused there to be 8' limits... Why would I do something so reckless and encourage them to make a 6' limit? The reason I said I don't care about the law, I'd just be concerned about the health care aspect is because no one who will report me will be in my home or see the Burm... So the legal part of it would have no effect on me. However I wouldn't buy an animal that I couldn't take to the vet. Hope you didn't think I would try and bring an illegal animal into a vet or buy one and let it suffer... I wouldn't do either, EVER.

[MDT]

If you're doing "it" legally, I have no issue. Only going by your post stating you "could care less about the limit"...

And, at the end of the day, what I think really doesn't matter. It's gonna be you and a really big snake that is either legal or not...how you care for it will be on you.

[ErikBush97]

If you're doing "it" legally, I have no issue. Only going by your post stating you "could care less about the limit"...

And, at the end of the day, what I think really doesn't matter. It's gonna be you and a really big snake that is either legal or not...how you care for it will be on you.

I can care for a large snake. However, I wouldn't want to buy one, have it get sick and not be able to help it... That's not fair to the animal so I'll have to get in touch with my friend and see if he has a permit.

[Corey209]

If you own your own home, I don't see the risk of owning a snake over 8'. Take the snake out of town to a vet that treats snakes 8'+. My city Stockton has a size limit on all animals yet there's a ton of vets right outside of town that will treat them.

[Mikoh4792]

If you own your own home, I don't see the risk of owning a snake over 8'. Take the snake out of town to a vet that treats snakes 8'+. My city Stockton has a size limit on all animals yet there's a ton of vets right outside of town that will treat them.

Even if it's illegal? There is still a risk, and people should put aside their selfish desires so they don't ruin the hobby even further. This gives lawmakers more reason to make our hobby stricter than it already is.

[Hotchkiss]

Even if it's illegal? There is still a risk, and people should put aside their selfish desires so they don't ruin the hobby even further. This gives lawmakers more reason to make our hobby stricter than it already is.
I have to Agree and Disagree, The laws are dumb and useless. Written by people who probably have no experience with the topic based on how they they feel about big scary baby-killing snakes... While if he is able to get a permit then great... But if they're refusing to issue them then I think he should go ahead with it.

[lady_bug87]

Aside from Matt. and Mikoh its like the Blind leading the blind.
The quickest way to help cities issue an all-out ban is to work against the local bylaws.

Good Job. You guys are truly well informed.

especially since if you use Corey's logic you're subjecting your neighbors and their children to the risk of an illegal animal without thinking of potential consequences.

Brilliant. All of you!

[rhiannon79]

I live in Louisiana and I've never heard of a law against having large snakes. Several pet stores here sell 4 ft pythons and boas.so I wonder if there are any laws at all. I'm gonna google it...hahaha I know how much yall love google answers. ..lol

[ErikBush97]

Even if it's illegal? There is still a risk, and people should put aside their selfish desires so they don't ruin the hobby even further. This gives lawmakers more reason to make our hobby stricter than it already is.

I agree, Mikoh!

[ErikBush97]

Aside from Matt. and Mikoh its like the Blind leading the blind.
The quickest way to help cities issue an all-out ban is to work against the local bylaws.

Good Job. You guys are truly well informed.

especially since if you use Corey's logic you're subjecting your neighbors and their children to the risk of an illegal animal without thinking of potential consequences.

Brilliant. All of you!

I'm not sure where the rude comment came from... At least I came to ask about permits and whatnot.... Many people just go out and buy Burms and Retics regardless (which I won't be doing)

[rhiannon79]

So with a quick search turns out 12 ft is the max u can own privately in louisiana .if u get the permits u can own as big as u wa

[ErikBush97]

I have to Agree and Disagree, The laws are dumb and useless. Written by people who probably have no experience with the topic based on how they they feel about big scary baby-killing snakes... While if he is able to get a permit then great... But if they're refusing to issue them then I think he should go ahead with it.
Without the bans, there'd be a lot more owners = a lot more irresponsible owners = a lot more injuries and deaths from big snakes. It's like guns... Sure some bad people can get ahold of guns... But if ANYONE could walk into a gun store, guy a firearm, and ammunition, just imagine how much crime rates would go up...
I agree that some laws are made out of fear, but I do think that the size limits are useful. Even if it prevents me from having my dream snake, it also prevents some moron(s) from getting a 'big, cool snake', and ending up in the news, dead from giant man eating snake...

[slowhite03]

Maybe I read this thread wrong but I thought he said he would try to get a permit. Anyways, for a 12' any animal would most likely be a house call, not a dr visit. If you are going to so it illegally, a friend who is a vet would be the way to go. Bash me all you want but I can guarantee a lot of the members here have/had illegal pets.

[ErikBush97]

So with a quick search turns out 12 ft is the max u can own privately in louisiana .if u get the permits u can own as big as u wa

You lucky duck.. :p

[ErikBush97]

Maybe I read this thread wrong but I thought he said he would try to get a permit. Anyways, for a 12' any animal would most likely be a house call, not a dr visit. If you are going to so it illegally, a friend who is a vet would be the way to go. Bash me all you want but I can guarantee a lot of the members here have/had illegal pets.

I don't really want to do it illegally... I don't need a Burm, I want one so I can go without if I have to do it illegally. My friend said that he took his alligator to the vet, said he didn't have his permit and they said it's fine and they couldn't report him for that. Idk why they can't, but that's cool. He has alligators, burms, retics... All sorts of illegal critters. He's actually one of the most responsible herp keepers I know, on and offline. Regardless of if he does it legally, he knows exactly what he's doing and has a crazy collection including venomoid Rattlesnakes, King Cobra(s), etc (I personally still don't trust those little F*****rs..). Still... I'm not half as educated and experienced as him, so I wouldn't want to do things illegally.

[rhiannon79]

Well laws are good in some ways it would stop stupid people from killing themselves because they got one huge snake cause its cool and gets them lots of attention in public but I dont think they should limit it to just animals I have seen plenty of parents with live human children they dont deserve or treat with any kind of respect or appreciation and theres noone making any laws stopping horrible people from havin 1,2,or 10 innocent children

[Corey209]

Aside from Matt. and Mikoh its like the Blind leading the blind.
The quickest way to help cities issue an all-out ban is to work against the local bylaws.

Good Job. You guys are truly well informed.

especially since if you use Corey's logic you're subjecting your neighbors and their children to the risk of an illegal animal without thinking of potential consequences.

Brilliant. All of you!

I was raised that it's not illegal unless you get caught, it's something I follow but with boundaries of course. Does that mean I'm going to go out and illegally purchase large reptiles or hots? Probably not, but if I wanted to I would. I highly doubt that it would make the hobby look bad if someone was caught with a burmese python, they would either tell them to relocate the animal or take it away. I seem to really only hear about people keeping illegal animals when they hoard them, someone is killed or someone has been bitten. A responsible owner is not endangering any neighbors keeping a well contained 8'+ snake.

[Aaron_S]

I was raised that it's not illegal unless you get caught, it's something I follow but with boundaries of course. Does that mean I'm going to go out and illegally purchase large reptiles or hots? Probably not, but if I wanted to I would. I highly doubt that it would make the hobby look bad if someone was caught with a burmese python, they would either tell them to relocate the animal or take it away. I seem to really only hear about people keeping illegal animals when they hoard them, someone is killed or someone has been bitten. A responsible owner is not endangering any neighbors keeping a well contained 8'+ snake.

Oh no? Won't make the hobby look bad?

How about the guy who was illegally keeping snakes in New York? That made quite the stir. 850 snakes. That doesn't make us look like crazy hoarders? How about the fact he was taking disability but yet running a snake business? Yeah that didn't look bad at all.

For giants, how about the guy who had 50 or so all euthanized in British Columbia? All retics. That didn't look like we were once again hoarders?

The point Lori was trying to make is that if I choose to live somewhere based on local laws I shouldn't fear a keeper making a mistake. Plenty of "responsible" keepers make mistakes. This includes other animals like lions and tigers. Would you not say Siegfried and Roy were responsible with their animals in Vegas? Did one not suffer an attack after many many years? It happens. Don't be so arrogant.

EDIT: The REAL responsible keepers don't just think of what they want. They think of the people around them too.

[Corey209]

Oh no? Won't make the hobby look bad?

How about the guy who was illegally keeping snakes in New York? That made quite the stir. 850 snakes. That doesn't make us look like crazy hoarders? How about the fact he was taking disability but yet running a snake business? Yeah that didn't look bad at all.

For giants, how about the guy who had 50 or so all euthanized in British Columbia? All retics. That didn't look like we were once again hoarders?

The point Lori was trying to make is that if I choose to live somewhere based on local laws I shouldn't fear a keeper making a mistake. Plenty of "responsible" keepers make mistakes. This includes other animals like lions and tigers. Would you not say Siegfried and Roy were responsible with their animals in Vegas? Did one not suffer an attack after many many years? It happens. Don't be so arrogant.

Good points, and from that point of view I completely agree.

[RandyRhoads]

Oh no? Won't make the hobby look bad?

How about the guy who was illegally keeping snakes in New York? That made quite the stir. 850 snakes. That doesn't make us look like crazy hoarders? How about the fact he was taking disability but yet running a snake business? Yeah that didn't look bad at all.

For giants, how about the guy who had 50 or so all euthanized in British Columbia? All retics. That didn't look like we were once again hoarders?


He said UNLESS they are hoarding many of them. Those people were...

I kind of agree with Corey. Is victimless crime, really a crime? I try to follow the law but also moral laws vs written law play a part in my head...

I've done a ton of leg work making sure my hots were legal, and as safe as possible. But if it was a species that occurred right outside my house and was legal to kill but not own, I probably wouldn't be too concerned with them telling me that's a no no.

[Aaron_S]

He said UNLESS they are hoarding many of them. Those people were...

I kind of agree with Corey. Is victimless crime, really a crime? I try to follow the law but also moral laws vs written law play a part in my head...

I've done a ton of leg work making sure my hots were legal, and as safe as possible. But if it was a species that occurred right outside my house and was legal to kill but not own, I probably wouldn't be too concerned with them telling me that's a no no.

No such thing as a victimless crime. If you don't see the victim it doesn't mean there wasn't one.

Legal or not, doesn't take away the risk that's been imposed. Now if I knew they were legal to keep then still decided to move where ever then I have placed myself in that situation.

Real responsible keepers take all things into account. You can't be responsible only doing legal things when you want to. Has to be all the time. I'm speaking to your last analogy.

[RandyRhoads]

No such thing as a victimless crime.


Who's the victim for not wearing a seatbelt of helmet? Some states it's legal, some not.

What about gambling? Illegal in some states.

Some places homosexuality is a crime.

Proceeding through a broken red light at a deserted country intersection after making sure it is completely safe to do so.

Who's the victim?

Some laws just don't make sense and are victimless. I was not allowed to buy a handgun commemorating my tour of duty in Afghanistan because I was too young to purchase it. It however was the same handgun I had just carried at WAR. Makes a lot of sense. I really wanted it. If I had someone make a straw purchase for me to keep until I was of age, because it was only available for a short time, who would have been the victim? (Never did it, now it's too late...)

[Aaron_S]

Who's the victim for not wearing a seatbelt of helmet? Some states it's legal, some not.

What about gambling? Illegal in some states.

Some places homosexuality is a crime.

Who's the victim?

The gay person would be the victim in that instance.

The other two? They already were trying to stop the victims but if you want examples.... If you were illegally gambling then maybe the victim is your family who now has lost everything due to you spending every dime.
Got pulled over for no seatbelt? Maybe the officer gets hit because he had to pull you over? Maybe you've got a warrant out for your arrest and because you've been taken into custody can no longer pick up child/children? Lots of victims.

[RandyRhoads]

The gay person would be the victim in that instance.

The other two? They already were trying to stop the victims but if you want examples.... If you were illegally gambling then maybe the victim is your family who now has lost everything due to you spending every dime.
Got pulled over for no seatbelt? Maybe the officer gets hit because he had to pull you over? Maybe you've got a warrant out for your arrest and because you've been taken into custody can no longer pick up child/children? Lots of victims.

How is the gay person a victim if it was consensual? You're going to tell him he made a mistake in what he wanted, and it was for his own good?

You're reaching a bit too far with the others. In the case with the officers getting hit sounds like that victimless law they made caused it. Had there not been such a ridiculous law he wouldn't have gotten hit.:blink:

If you're going to say POSSIBLY the victim in gambling is someone losing all their money that's their choice. That's like saying it should be illegal to eat certain foods because someone could love them so much they could eat themselves into diabetes or heart failure. Or outlaw video games because they can suck people whole lives up and make them hit bottom.

Bottom line you can't regulate people into a robotic life of what YOU think is best for them.

[ErikBush97]

The gay person would be the victim in that instance.

Lol... No... There's no victim. The gay person wouldn't be a victim, they'd be the convict.

[Hotchkiss]

Are we discussing laws we don't like now? I don't like laws restricting my 2A rights... Not really on topic but I just wanted to contribute to the thread

[RandyRhoads]

Are we discussing laws we don't like now? I don't like laws restricting my 2A rights... Not really on topic but I just wanted to contribute to the thread

Haha sorry derailed.....

[MDT]

Bottom line you can't regulate people into a robotic life of what YOU think is best for them.

I do not disagree with this statement. Actually, in my opinion, we are way over-regulated. However, the reality in our society, we are subject to regulations...most of which are knee-jerk responses and feel-good legislation that really does very little to keep us safe. But...until we can change the regs, we gotta play in boundaries.

[RandyRhoads]

I do not disagree with this statement. Actually, in my opinion, we are way over-regulated. However, the reality in our society, we are subject to regulations...most of which are knee-jerk responses and feel-good legislation that really does very little to keep us safe. But...until we can change the regs, we gotta play in boundaries.

And I get that. For the greater good, public safety.

But if like I said it was illegal to own a snake because if it got out it could bite someone like a neighbor, and that same snake could also be slithering around outside in the neighbors yard anyway because it's native, I wouldn't really care about the law. Not saying I would risk it because frankly I wouldn't want to risk a fine. But would I give a damn about the law, no... I would be doing it out of fear of fine rather than "that's the law"....

Still would love to get that monocled cobra, but I wont. That law makes sense. Wouldn't be fair to neighbors or general public if it got out and bit they could die because it's an exotic with no anti readily available...

[Aaron_S]

How is the gay person a victim if it was consensual? You're going to tell him he made a mistake in what he wanted, and it was for his own good?

You're reaching a bit too far with the others. In the case with the officers getting hit sounds like that victimless law they made caused it. Had there not been such a ridiculous law he wouldn't have gotten hit.:blink:

If you're going to say POSSIBLY the victim in gambling is someone losing all their money that's their choice. That's like saying it should be illegal to eat certain foods because someone could love them so much they could eat themselves into diabetes or heart failure. Or outlaw video games because they can suck people whole lives up and make them hit bottom.

Bottom line you can't regulate people into a robotic life of what YOU think is best for them.

I confused the gay one...my bad. I'm not paying attention.

Ridiculous law? Seatbelts SAVE lives. Facts. Proven.
You asked for victims I gave them in situations. I can come up with more but now I'm growing bored lol.

I agree you can't regulate people into a robotic life which is why I don't care if it's legal. If it IS illegal I think the laws should be upheld. No matter if it's silly or not with whatever animal.

[exwizard]

...I agree you can't regulate people into a robotic life which is why I don't care if it's legal. If it IS illegal I think the laws should be upheld. No matter if it's silly or not with whatever animal.I agree with this, which is why I have a permit. It's a Des Moines ordinance and since I live in Des Moines, I have to have one to keep some snakes I have.

[rhiannon79]

Laws are great when there real laws I mean we are spose to be free american's but yet everyday they come up with new laws to restrict our freedom and and all hies back to its whats best as if we aren't allowed to decide for ourselves what is best I understand some of these laws might save lives but when u start giving them permission to dictate ur lives because its what they feel is best where does that stop when is it to far of a attack of ur freedom sorry I'm ranting now I'll quit

[Mikoh4792]

Laws are great when there real laws I mean we are spose to be free american's but yet everyday they come up with new laws to restrict our freedom and and all hies back to its whats best as if we aren't allowed to decide for ourselves what is best I understand some of these laws might save lives but when u start giving them permission to dictate ur lives because its what they feel is best where does that stop when is it to far of a attack of ur freedom sorry I'm ranting now I'll quit

No I think most people would agree with you, but we are not talking about what should be, we are talking about what is.

Right now no matter how ridiculous the laws are, breaking them and getting caught WILL do bad for the hobby. The laws will get stricter. If people have a problem with the laws, move somewhere else or fight it, don't break it and ruin it for everyone else.

[Aaron_S]

No I think most people would agree with you, but we are not talking about what should be, we are talking about what is.

Right now no matter how ridiculous the laws are, breaking them and getting caught WILL do bad for the hobby. The laws will get stricter. If people have a problem with the laws, move somewhere else or fight it, don't break it and ruin it for everyone else.

Exactly.

Think beyond the short term of yourself (in general no one in particular).

[Hotchkiss]

http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/Lliam_Perkins/1383011871737_zps678bf1c7.jpg

[rhiannon79]

I totally agree with following the rules about the snakes my last reply was more to the off thread comments I was reading. As much as some hate the snake laws I'm sure there are some people out there that should not own large snakes or hots for the safety of others and so making people get permits does make it frustrating for good snake owners and breeders but I think it will help weed out the ones who just want some cool toy to flaunt to there friends

[Mikoh4792]

http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/Lliam_Perkins/1383011871737_zps678bf1c7.jpg

Sorry but I don't see the point you are making.

[ErikBush97]

Bottom line you can't regulate people into a robotic life

Nah... That's what the US government is for ;) (note: I didn't quote "of what YOU think is best for them". Lol)

[ErikBush97]

Also: Does anyone know why the vet would tell my friend that they can't report him for not owning a permit??

[Hotchkiss]

Also: Does anyone know why the vet would tell my friend that they can't report him for not owning a permit??

Do vets have Doctor/Patient confidentiality?

[ErikBush97]

Do vets have Doctor/Patient confidentiality?

Maybe. Idk