Hands-on handling, positive and negative experience question

[formica]

So i've been following the hands-off method since getting my Sav, he'll happily perch on my arm and accept food, but still whips, and has even had a few goes at biting me recently, if I make the slightest movement, so I'm thinking about changing tactics - mainly because, if anything, he has become less trusting of me. for the first few weeks, I was able to pick him up when needed, without much fuss, the less i interacted with him, the less willing he seemed to be to put up with this, the last time i picked him up, having emlpoyed the hands off method for a while, I got a hand full of poop, its been a good few months since I tried anything beyond holding my arm out for him to climb and eat off

before people jump on me, I am fully aware of all the reasons behind the hands off method, its why I decieded to follow the method, we dont need to go over all that.

Changing tactic isnt something I am going to do today, tomorrow or even next month, its something I want to look into a little more - it seems that although not recommended by some, with reasonable assumptions to back it up, it certainly does give good results for some people - lets leave aside the issue of low basking tempretures, because for my Sav that will never been a concern.

The reason I am thinking about this, is because either it will work, and I'll end up with a Sav who will tolerate handling allot better, or it wont work, and we'll have the same relationship we have anyway, so I think its worth a shot, before he/she gets to big to even contemplate it.


So i'd love to hear peoples experiences using the hands-on method, as is used for other reptiles with great success - have you found it helped, or did it make your Sav less trusting? what was your method, how long did you try it for, and any other info you think might be of relevance, feel free to comment!




( Those with strong opinions on why this should not be done, please try to refrain from bashing people over their practices, both sides of the discussion are just as valid as the other, we should not try suppress the experiences of other people because they do not support our own opinions :)

I am inclined to believe that hands on can work for some Savs, just as it works for many snakes, and equally, for some snakes it will never work, polarizing the discussion wont really produce anything useful )

[Toothless]

If you are picking him up at all then it's not 'completely' hands off :). I have only picked up my guy twice (he escaped and got stuck so I had to help him). I would say he's just started to except someone touching him (sometimes) after 1 1/2 years- mind you I don't interact with him every day.
The 'hands-on' approach seems to work pretty good for reptiles that are captive bred although I will probably always use the hands-off approach with any reptile (personal decision :)). I think the reason hands-off is recommended for most monitors is due to the fact that quite a few are wild-caught, and also because they are so intelligent. This is only speculation as I'm not sure what the reason is besides the fact that it reduces stress.

I'd say keep trying the hands-off method. Many keepers with lots of experience have had great success with it and it makes for a stress-free lizard :).
No experience with hands-on methods, so I won't comment on that :).

[nepoez]

hehe, from what I've seen and from my experience it's really luck. I had owned other savs before and each behave completely different, and most are just not gonna tolerate. I got lucky with mine since it landed in my cage, well have had two and i kept the tame one: at the end of video he comes to me, as always :) not a fluke!
0KsTqKHAU5Q

So i've been following the hands-off method since getting my Sav, he'll happily perch on my arm and accept food, but still whips, and has even had a few goes at biting me recently, if I make the slightest movement, so I'm thinking about changing tactics - mainly because, if anything, he has become less trusting of me. for the first few weeks, I was able to pick him up when needed, without much fuss, the less i interacted with him, the less willing he seemed to be to put up with this, the last time i picked him up, having emlpoyed the hands off method for a while, I got a hand full of poop, its been a good few months since I tried anything beyond holding my arm out for him to climb and eat off

before people jump on me, I am fully aware of all the reasons behind the hands off method, its why I decieded to follow the method, we dont need to go over all that.

Changing tactic isnt something I am going to do today, tomorrow or even next month, its something I want to look into a little more - it seems that although not recommended by some, with reasonable assumptions to back it up, it certainly does give good results for some people - lets leave aside the issue of low basking tempretures, because for my Sav that will never been a concern.

The reason I am thinking about this, is because either it will work, and I'll end up with a Sav who will tolerate handling allot better, or it wont work, and we'll have the same relationship we have anyway, so I think its worth a shot, before he/she gets to big to even contemplate it.


So i'd love to hear peoples experiences using the hands-on method, as is used for other reptiles with great success - have you found it helped, or did it make your Sav less trusting? what was your method, how long did you try it for, and any other info you think might be of relevance, feel free to comment!




( Those with strong opinions on why this should not be done, please try to refrain from bashing people over their practices, both sides of the discussion are just as valid as the other, we should not try suppress the experiences of other people because they do not support our own opinions :)

I am inclined to believe that hands on can work for some Savs, just as it works for many snakes, and equally, for some snakes it will never work, polarizing the discussion wont really produce anything useful )

[formica]

thanks for the comments guys

Toothless, no I've not been picking him up, only previously out of necessity a few times, my interactions with him, since he moved to his grow-on, have been nothing more than tong feeding and arm perching, and i feel his confidence in that time has been in decline


agreed Nepoez, i'm inclined to think its hit and miss aswell, the fact that I was able to handle him a few times early on, suggests that it may be worth trying, i've had plenty of snakes and lizards who needed allot of attention in this way, before they learned to tolerate interaction like that, both WC and CB, my Sav is WF, so at least it potentially shouldnt be as difficult as WC.

[Toothless]

thanks for the comments guys

Toothless, no I've not been picking him up, only previously out of necessity a few times, my interactions with him, since he moved to his grow-on, have been nothing more than tong feeding and arm perching, and i feel his confidence in that time has been in decline


agreed Nepoez, i'm inclined to think its hit and miss aswell, the fact that I was able to handle him a few times early on, suggests that it may be worth trying, i've had plenty of snakes and lizards who needed allot of attention in this way, before they learned to tolerate interaction like that, both WC and CB, my Sav is WF, so at least it potentially shouldnt be as difficult as WC.

I was just being smart :P. Was feeling a bit silly yesterday as I have a sick baby and havn't slept in 3 days:shocked:.
It probably wouldn't hurt to give it a try and see if he tolerates handling. If he looks stressed, you can always go back to the hands-off (you know what to look for :) ).
My guy probably wouldn't like to be picked up, but I don't think it would stress him if I did it slowely- he seems quite settled in and doesn't spook easily anymore. I just havn't had the time to see how far he'll let me go with the handling thing.

[formica]

i dont expect him to like being picked up at all lol at least not initially - a few months ago there seemed to be some progress, he was more interactive, let me scratch his head a few times, but things have gone backwards and he's gotten bitey, without me trying to make any physical contact at all - something may have spooked him i guess, i dont know what tho, nothing has changed, and his behaviour hasnt changed apart from that

[Toothless]

Mine went through a 'regression' stage as well at about the 1 year mark. Started tail whipping, biting, etc. when before he had been pretty mild. He settled down after 4 months and is now even better than before.
Maybe they go through a whole 'teenager' thing? I know alot of mammals have a change in temperment briefly when they hit adolescents. Wonder if something similar happens with monis?

[nepoez]

I'm just glad my guy lets me interact with him in pretty much every way. He would let me pick him up if I wanted to but I personally don't like it, his claws really hurt now that he's so big and heavy. Even when I had a dog I don't pick it up, I don't know why people would want to pick a dog, lizard, or a human up. I'd hate it if someone picked me up off the floor lol.

[formica]

interesting Toothless, culd be right, could be a sign that hormones are kicking in

nepoez, i'm not about to start perching him on my shoulder lol, but, as I am looking into various regular check ups/tests with the vet, i would like to be able to reduce the amount of stress involved as much as possible

[murrindindi]

Hi, over the years I`ve found that the more you interact the more accepting of contact they often become (I know, that sounds rather obvious), but if you only do it occasionally it takes the animal that much longer to realise you aren`t a threat.
They don`t enjoy having their feet off the ground (as in when you pick them up), but in times many might learn to sit/lay quite calmly on your shoulders/chest for a short time.
I like to touch them on most parts of their body, not so much along the top of the back because during ritual combat or domination/submission they may rake each other on the dorsal surface. Also right between where the rear legs join the side of the body, and the face between the eye and tympanum, side or top of the neck.
One of the best ways to start is with food (as always), while they are actually eating touch/stroke them (not if they`re chasing the items on tongs! :)), maybe while swallowing a mouse or other relatively large item.
I must make it clear this would not happen before acclimation, the monitor should not exhibit defensive posturing when you approach.
I have only a very few pics left (my computer crashed several years ago, I lost around 80% of my pics), so apologies if you`ve already seen the following....
This is my late Varanus ornatus (reached 230cm ToL), mass approx. 22kl (50lbs), claws approx. 3/4 inch long (many scratches), but he was ridiculously "trusting", but remember it takes much time and patience to get to this stage and never any guarantees it will!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7173/6782689255_de89ed87e5_z.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5458/8952346979_f55e3b71e3_z.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2027/5696991246_b06ef34f49_z.jpg

[Akuma223]

Basically what murrindinni was saying, just interact with them everyday, not picking them up but just touching them here and there. Sometimes my Rudi is pissy so I will stroke his back while he swallows food. I think I have had good luck overall with my Rudi though, he has been a very easy animal to work with from the start.

Also, does anyone know where can I find information on social behavior in monitors? As murrindinni was saying about dominance stuff, I have noticed my boy do interesting things when I stroke his back.

[Toothless]

My guy doesn't seem to mind me gently patting his side at times, but I havn't tried to push my limit yet and see how far he'll let me go (mostly because I don't want to get bitten- YUP...I'm a wimp!! :) ).
I do talk to him everyday as I'm going about my housecleaning (he's in the livingroom)- he will sit at the door and listen quite often during the day.

[formica]

thanks for the comments - what you are describing, is what I have labeled the ''hands off'' method above, its what I have been doing, and he has become less and less tolerant of it, less trusting and more aggressive - i'm going to put it down to hormones for now, keep at it and see how things are in 'spring'

[Toothless]

I would keep at it a bit (I'm glad I did). I was stunned by his sudden change in attitude as well. He would literally lunge at me with mouth open every time I opened the enclosure- I started wearing large oven mitts just to make myself feel better. Before this I could let him climb out of the enclosure and explore with no problem. I pretty much ignored him for a while (a few months), and one day I noticed he was sitting my the door. He started comming up to investigate every time I opened the enclosure and his demenor changed.
It would be nice to know if experienced keepers have noticed a change in attitiude around the 1 year mark?

[murrindindi]

Also, does anyone know where can I find information on social behavior in monitors? As murrindinni was saying about dominance stuff, I have noticed my boy do interesting things when I stroke his back.


Hi, there are a number of scientific articles on the social behaviour of wild Varanids, also on ritual combat in a couple of species. I`m not sure these are available to view/download online but any decent library should be able to get copies in, then you can either borrow the paper or have photocopies done (it only costs a small amount).
If you`re seriously interested I`ll put a few titles up.

[murrindindi]

I would keep at it a bit (I'm glad I did). I was stunned by his sudden change in attitude as well. He would literally lunge at me with mouth open every time I opened the enclosure- I started wearing large oven mitts just to make myself feel better. Before this I could let him climb out of the enclosure and explore with no problem. I pretty much ignored him for a while (a few months), and one day I noticed he was sitting my the door. He started comming up to investigate every time I opened the enclosure and his demenor changed.
It would be nice to know if experienced keepers have noticed a change in attitiude around the 1 year mark?


Hi, I think it may be due to the fact they are becoming adult (sexually mature), and showing they are dominant would be part of that process.
In my experience with a variety of species over 30+ years I`ve actually never had one become more defensive towards me the older they got (always less so) I guess I must be doing it all wrong, so what`s your secret!? ;)

[Toothless]

Hi, I think it may be due to the fact they are becoming adult (sexually mature), and showing they are dominant would be part of that process.
In my experience with a variety of species over 30+ years I`ve actually never had one become more defensive towards me the older they got (always less so) I guess I must be doing it all wrong, so what`s your secret!? ;)
Did any of the monitors you have been around show a sudden change in temperament when they became sexually mature?

My guy's pretty good now, and I think that if I had to I could pick him up without much fuss (maybe a few hisses), but I didn't do anything to make him that way besides ignoring him for a few months. I would hold the food quietly on the tongues, say hello, then close the door when he was done. I tried to change the water whenever he was sleeping or hiding otherwise I quickly reached in, grabbed it, and closed the door.
After a few months of this, his temperament suddenly changed again and he didn't seem bothered at all by me, or anyone for that matter. Strange people used to bother him and he would hiss and whip if they stood too close to the enclosure, but now he comes right up to the door and starts scratching. I think he's more comfortable now that he's larger and doesn't feel as threatened.

[murrindindi]

Did any of the monitors you have been around show a sudden change in temperament when they became sexually mature?

My guy's pretty good now, and I think that if I had to I could pick him up without much fuss (maybe a few hisses), but I didn't do anything to make him that way besides ignoring him for a few months. I would hold the food quietly on the tongues, say hello, then close the door when he was done. I tried to change the water whenever he was sleeping or hiding otherwise I quickly reached in, grabbed it, and closed the door.
After a few months of this, his temperament suddenly changed again and he didn't seem bothered at all by me, or anyone for that matter. Strange people used to bother him and he would hiss and whip if they stood too close to the enclosure, but now he comes right up to the door and starts scratching. I think he's more comfortable now that he's larger and doesn't feel as threatened.


Hi, as I said my monitors have all got calmer the older and bigger they`ve got, but then I`m very regularly having physical contact with them (the touching/stroking) which obviously means they are used to that so don`t act defensively at all when it happens.
My present Asian Water monitor is extremely calm outside the enclosure, moreso than inside at times, but that`s because "outside" isn`t his "house" as such, though he is very familiar with the surroundings now (has learned there`s nothing to threaten his existence on the "outside").
In other words, in the wild they know their home range extremely well, but their places of safety are their hides.
There`s no doubt that they react to our emotions, perhaps he picked up on your nervousness and felt threatened?

[nepoez]

Maybe cut their tail off and neuter them, like the dog industry does haha. jk... I always find it strange that our society accepts that dogs get the tails cut off, balls chopped off, etc

[Toothless]

Hi, as I said my monitors have all got calmer the older and bigger they`ve got, but then I`m very regularly having physical contact with them (the touching/stroking) which obviously means they are used to that so don`t act defensively at all when it happens.
My present Asian Water monitor is extremely calm outside the enclosure, moreso than inside at times, but that`s because "outside" isn`t his "house" as such, though he is very familiar with the surroundings now (has learned there`s nothing to threaten his existence on the "outside").
In other words, in the wild they know their home range extremely well, but their places of safety are their hides.
There`s no doubt that they react to our emotions, perhaps he picked up on your nervousness and felt threatened?
Sorry I didn't get that the last post. I'm sleep deprived at the moment and its amazing I can read and type at all :shocked:. I apologize in advance if this doesn't appear to be english :P.

I'm not nervous around him, just cautious as I would prefer not to get bit- I only became cautious after he started lunging and am still so to some degree even though he has calmed down. I'm not sure what triggered the sudden defensiveness but ignoring him for a while did the trick for him.

I'd love to start working with him more as I plan to start getting regular bloodwork done on him (every six months), but plan to wait until he is comfortable enough being picked up and placed in a carrier before I make the trip though. Maybe sometime next summer :).

[formica]

Maybe cut their tail off and neuter them, like the dog industry does haha. jk... I always find it strange that our society accepts that dogs get the tails cut off, balls chopped off, etc

docking is illegal here, and in most of Europe, unless there is a good medical reason to do it - castration is a different thing tho, uncastrated dogs can be significantly more aggressive when an owner is unable to maintain a proper dominant position, unfortunately most people are unable, or unaware of the correct way to take a dominant position with a dog, and worse still allot of them believe that being aggressive/hitting/shouting is the way to do it :no:

[varanus_mad]

Hands on taming is a big no no for me... Evey varanid I've held that's been brought up that way it's heartbeat is going ten to the dozen.

Keep at it'll come round I suspect it's initial reaction was part of the settling process.

[nepoez]

docking is illegal here, and in most of Europe, unless there is a good medical reason to do it - castration is a different thing tho, uncastrated dogs can be significantly more aggressive when an owner is unable to maintain a proper dominant position, unfortunately most people are unable, or unaware of the correct way to take a dominant position with a dog, and worse still allot of them believe that being aggressive/hitting/shouting is the way to do it :no:

I think if the animal is meant to be aggressive without castration, then that's how it should be, and if it's too dangerous to keep then it shouldn't be kept as a pet :( Castrating it so it suits the owner is just messed up in my view, at least at this point in time that's how I feel.:unibrow:

[formica]

I think if the animal is meant to be aggressive without castration, then that's how it should be, and if it's too dangerous to keep then it shouldn't be kept as a pet :( Castrating it so it suits the owner is just messed up in my view, at least at this point in time that's how I feel.:unibrow:

all dogs are more aggressive when not castrated, thats just the nature of hormones, obviously its to a lessor or greater degree depending on the dog - all dogs are dangerous if not trained and looked after properly, they are after all, top level predators, there is no getting around that, except thru proper dominance techniques

if castration caused pain, or a reduction in the quality of life, then i'd agree, but reducing aggression and wounds/medical care as a result, unwanted pregnancies, puppies then getting dumped in rivers, dogs less likley to vanish into the night and cause mayhem in the communicty and further...etc are good reasons for it imo

[Toothless]

I agree. Castration is not in the same category as ear and tail cropping (same as de-clawing in cats). Docking and cropping is an unneccasairy procedure which does not benefit the animal at all in most cases. Castration on the other hand not only reduces the amount of unwanted puppies, it also makes the animal more comfortable as they are not constantly driven by their hormones and the need to mate.

[mdfmonitor]

The more positives experiences they have the more easier going monitor you’ll have, if you use dominating behaviour like picking up or stroking from above etc the more problem you’ll have in my experience. One negative experience could undo several positive experiences

[infernalis]

One negative experience could undo several positive experiences

Bazinga!

Good timing to share this, several evenings ago I was feeding my lizards, as per the usual, Littlefoot jumped out onto the floor to attack the plate of food. He noticed a crack in the door (it was not fully closed) and bolted full speed, before I could even react or flinch, he was down the hallway.

I had to chase him down, corner him and forcefully place him back in the cage and close the door.

Ever since then, at the first sight of me, he vanishes down a hole and won't come back out.

The one forced grab up has set me back on trust quite a bit.

[formica]

Bazinga!

Good timing to share this, several evenings ago I was feeding my lizards, as per the usual, Littlefoot jumped out onto the floor to attack the plate of food. He noticed a crack in the door (it was not fully closed) and bolted full speed, before I could even react or flinch, he was down the hallway.

I had to chase him down, corner him and forcefully place him back in the cage and close the door.

Ever since then, at the first sight of me, he vanishes down a hole and won't come back out.

The one forced grab up has set me back on trust quite a bit.


im interested in the diffrence between the way you interact with your current two, and your previous Sav? you seemed to have built up a pretty good trusting relationship with him, where as your current two, as you say are more 'wild', what method did you use previously? i know that temperature may have been a factor in his reaction to you (if i'm remembering right), but would still be interested in how you went about it

[infernalis]

Oh, we mauled and handled Chomper all the time.

He was "calm" (lethargic) and paid for it with his life.

Hence why I went fill 180 this time. (opposite)

[Toothless]

Bazinga!

Good timing to share this, several evenings ago I was feeding my lizards, as per the usual, Littlefoot jumped out onto the floor to attack the plate of food. He noticed a crack in the door (it was not fully closed) and bolted full speed, before I could even react or flinch, he was down the hallway.

I had to chase him down, corner him and forcefully place him back in the cage and close the door.

Ever since then, at the first sight of me, he vanishes down a hole and won't come back out.

The one forced grab up has set me back on trust quite a bit.

Haha! I can see him now...'FREEDOM!!!!!.....oh crap, nevermind!'

Close to the same thing happened with me a little while ago and I found the same thing happened. He wanted mothing to do with me for a few weeks.

[formica]

Oh, we mauled and handled Chomper all the time.

He was "calm" (lethargic) and paid for it with his life.

Hence why I went fill 180 this time. (opposite)

did he show interest in you when you where not handling him? I mean, did he come to you when you where the near the enclosure, or did he actively avoid contact unless you forced it on him?

I'm wondering if it is possible to have the best of both worlds, proper temperatures, but more interaction - but not if it is going to instill a persistent fear that will reduce its quality of life

[formica]

Hands on taming is a big no no for me... Evey varanid I've held that's been brought up that way it's heartbeat is going ten to the dozen.

Keep at it'll come round I suspect it's initial reaction was part of the settling process.

the monitors you are referring to, where they your own? if so did you raise them from hatchlings, or did handling start at adulthood? if they where not your own, could the heartbeat also be a reaction to an unknown situation/handler?



i've no plan to switch tactics at this time, just trying to understand them better

[varanus_mad]

the monitors you are referring to, where they your own? if so did you raise them from hatchlings, or did handling start at adulthood? if they where not your own, could the heartbeat also be a reaction to an unknown situation/handler?



i've no plan to switch tactics at this time, just trying to understand them better

A few adults I purchased of other keepers and a few kept by other keepers, monitors I've raised from hatchling I've done hands off with.

[V87]

Tried both methods

And I would say depends on the individual monitor in question and the sp and wether they are cb or wc or ltc ...

If u have a bold individual sp they may not need any force handling

My male green tree cb would regularly jump out into me as soon as I opened the viv door and not for food but for a look around and would let me handle him ... He would walk into my hand and allow handling ....

My Bosc male wc would walk out of his viv all the time allow handling and run up my body for food with no hesitation .... Show no fear and no aggression to anyone or anything .....

My male argus cb would hate any handling of any sort most of the time .... There was a few days he would allow it for cleaning out purposes and baths he would hiss and tail whip for England so I never forced the point of trying to handle him as he clearly wasn't comfortable ...

My green tree female wc was skittish as hell wen I first received her other than the fact she was near death she still choose to run away even when she was near deaths door so I left her completely hands off would only feed her and do daily routine .... I would barely look at her it was that bad ... But and a big but after a while say 5 months after she was back to health she would occasionally jump out into me ... Never would allow my hand to hold her but she would allow me to touch her and she was hesitant to say the least and very wary but she was tolerant in the end ....

My female ackie .... Ltc hated me with a passion and I mean a passion she was a bold as brass but as soon as my hand was within 1ft of her attack attack attack ... Kill kill kill ... Even when cleaning or spraying she would just bite again so after this I never forced the point of handling because she quite obviously hated my hands lol ... I never let her out of the viv because she was so small I would lose her ....

My rescue Nile wc .... Was fairly tractable from the beginning and I put this down to his ill health ... But even as he got back to health and gained size and weight he was a good boy unless it was feed day then he was a different kettle of fish he wanted blood no matter who's is was ..... I never forced this guy into handling either he just wanted out and onto me bless him

My quince wc ..... Calm as anything will not eat in front if me but the few times I have had him out to check on his progress his heart rate has not been elevated and will happily sit in my hand without fear of movement .... I am most surprised with this as he is wc and tiny but everyday he surprises me with his bold behaviour again I will say he is a secretive eater


My method is leave em alone ... Leave em alone ... Then slowly try tong feeding and walking them into ur arm or ur hand ....

Then go from there .... It's all slowly slowly catchy monkey ...

I would never chase them around the viv ... Never approach from above .... Never remove then from their hides ....

Each monitor is an individual and should b dealt with accordingly .... A settle period wether it 6 months to 2 years is not a lot to ask to judge or see wether ur monitor will become tractable or tolerant of ur handling or interaction ....
I've handled lots of monis some that others wouldn't put there hand in with but always found my techniques to work ...
These are my experiences hope it helps in some way

[nepoez]

Bazinga!

Good timing to share this, several evenings ago I was feeding my lizards, as per the usual, Littlefoot jumped out onto the floor to attack the plate of food. He noticed a crack in the door (it was not fully closed) and bolted full speed, before I could even react or flinch, he was down the hallway.

I had to chase him down, corner him and forcefully place him back in the cage and close the door.

Ever since then, at the first sight of me, he vanishes down a hole and won't come back out.

The one forced grab up has set me back on trust quite a bit.

man that suck! That's why when my sav scraped his head, I decided to not do anything to his woud right away to see if it heals on its own.. fortunately it healed and I didn't have to cause him to think I'm hurting him and end up hating me ...

[mdfmonitor]

I'm quite happy to watch thier behaviour!!

nothing like throwing a box of crickets in before they wake & look later that night to see the cork bark scattered all over the place.

treat them right & they'll come round eventually.

[BH Varanus]

So i've been following the hands-off method since getting my Sav, he'll happily perch on my arm and accept food, but still whips, and has even had a few goes at biting me recently, if I make the slightest movement, so I'm thinking about changing tactics - mainly because, if anything, he has become less trusting of me. for the first few weeks, I was able to pick him up when needed, without much fuss, the less i interacted with him, the less willing he seemed to be to put up with this, the last time i picked him up, having emlpoyed the hands off method for a while, I got a hand full of poop, its been a good few months since I tried anything beyond holding my arm out for him to climb and eat off

before people jump on me, I am fully aware of all the reasons behind the hands off method, its why I decieded to follow the method, we dont need to go over all that.

Changing tactic isnt something I am going to do today, tomorrow or even next month, its something I want to look into a little more - it seems that although not recommended by some, with reasonable assumptions to back it up, it certainly does give good results for some people - lets leave aside the issue of low basking tempretures, because for my Sav that will never been a concern.

The reason I am thinking about this, is because either it will work, and I'll end up with a Sav who will tolerate handling allot better, or it wont work, and we'll have the same relationship we have anyway, so I think its worth a shot, before he/she gets to big to even contemplate it.


So i'd love to hear peoples experiences using the hands-on method, as is used for other reptiles with great success - have you found it helped, or did it make your Sav less trusting? what was your method, how long did you try it for, and any other info you think might be of relevance, feel free to comment!




( Those with strong opinions on why this should not be done, please try to refrain from bashing people over their practices, both sides of the discussion are just as valid as the other, we should not try suppress the experiences of other people because they do not support our own opinions :)

I am inclined to believe that hands on can work for some Savs, just as it works for many snakes, and equally, for some snakes it will never work, polarizing the discussion wont really produce anything useful )

try manning techniques used for raptors it worked with my female ornate who was the equivalent of a four legged barracuda when i adopted her at 3 years old. I also use a cooling method , but don't advise it for novice owners (not implying you're a novice). The cooling method has to be spot on ( for obvious medical reasons and i only used it once a week on a red level psycho water monitor I had years ago. It worked pretty well and i followed it up with 'manning.' for the record i only handle my varanus after these steps were completed during enclosure maintenance, vet visits are when they bother me..lol
as far as duration of use of these these techniques they took eight weeks and only used them on adopted adults.

[V87]

try manning techniques used for raptors it worked with my female ornate who was the equivalent of a four legged barracuda when i adopted her at 3 years old. I also use a cooling method , but don't advise it for novice owners (not implying you're a novice). The cooling method has to be spot on ( for obvious medical reasons and i only used it once a week on a red level psycho water monitor I had years ago. It worked pretty well and i followed it up with 'manning.' for the record i only handle my varanus after these steps were completed during enclosure maintenance, vet visits are when they bother me..lol
as far as duration of use of these these techniques they took eight weeks and only used them on adopted adults.

Can u explain the cooling technique u speak of and what it consists of other than the obvious ?

[mdfmonitor]

many keepers use the cooling method full time!!

they are just as interesting to watch!! if they come round to handling all the better. :)

[formica]

I think the ''manning'' method, is what I was referring to as hands-on? - a bit more reading suggests its less about hands on, and just being in the same environment for long periods of time - but with falconry they also practice sleep deprivation, which seems to me excessive stress, but obviously it does work for Falcons - the website I was reading however, did note that some Falcons would develop problematic phobias of random things, a little concerning for dealing with one animal, perhaps not for several where the odds are reduced, a major concern for a pet tho!

cooling method I assume is reducing their available temperatures to make them more sluggish and less aggressive (interestingly thats also a technique I also use when attempting to combine unrelated queens into a single ant colony, cool them to <8C, leave them for 48hrs, and after that they behave as if they are related - if you put a new queen into a colony without this process, it'll almost certainly be killed)

Is there any info on the cooling method? I'm wondering if it would be most appropriately tested during ''cool season'', which my Sav is just gearing up for with reduction in basking times and ambient temps (based on the method used in the biawk artical, dont remember which issue)

[Pareeeee]

I guess I will never own a monitor, even though they are fascinating, because I couldn't bear having a pet I couldn't handle. (fish are the only exception to this rule)

Good luck with yours! :)

[BH Varanus]

Can u explain the cooling technique u speak of and what it consists of other than the obvious ?

Cooling technique (It’s annoyingly involved but this is the best way for me to share how I do it)

honestly I don’t recommend cooling most monitors just need time. most of my varanus were all adoptions that had aggression issues and were wild caught.
I don't usually have to do it after the first four months and its done biweekly depending on med checks I do not use this as a tool for taming just health checks. allot of keeper frown upon it,but to each his or her own.

I determine the preferred optimum temperature range. I try to determine this based on the highs and lows of the native country of the individual species. The problem I ran into with my ornate is the wide distribution of the countries in the African rainforest. It forced me to grab historical data and average it according to season. much easier with my water monitors that I've cared for. For a week I took temperature readings with a heat gun and thermometer (it was hell getting a reading…lol). I averaged the temps of when my monitor left the hide to bask on an (empty stomach) and when it left the hide (empty stomach) and no I did not starve my monitor. These numbers ranged from 63 to 70. I then Turned off my ambient air support devices and the only source of heat for the week was the UV and UVB basking lights because as we all know their heliophilic/heliothermic blah blah blah. The temp of the cage was 65 degrees with humidity maintained at 75 percent. Anyway, I noticed she was lethargic around this temp so the next morning very early I took three 1 gallon buckets of water that I froze in a deep freezer overnight and placed them in her cage a 8x4x4. The temp dropped to 50 after 2 .5 hours I than proceeded to take her body temp which was 14 degrees Celcius. Its been documented that 5 degrees Celsius is dangerous or fatal for reptiles so I felt staying at an estimated 14. In addition, a reptiles body does not alwwwwwwways reflect the actual ambient temperature due to obvious metabolic processes and muscle movement blah blah. After doing this she did hiss but it allowed me 15 non-violent minutes of time to examine her or if going to the vet. However during vet visit commutes I would placed the car AC at 70 to keep her maintained. This process I feel is a temporary fix and is not a good long term practice and is dangerous if done too long. but I felt it was necessary so I could handle what is now a manageable varanus ( depending on her mood..lol) . I feel its all about knowing your temp ranges and your monitor down to the exact degree. Luckily now I only cool her for her annual vet visit.

[BH Varanus]

I think the ''manning'' method, is what I was referring to as hands-on? - a bit more reading suggests its less about hands on, and just being in the same environment for long periods of time - but with falconry they also practice sleep deprivation, which seems to me excessive stress, but obviously it does work for Falcons - the website I was reading however, did note that some Falcons would develop problematic phobias of random things, a little concerning for dealing with one animal, perhaps not for several where the odds are reduced, a major concern for a pet tho!

cooling method I assume is reducing their available temperatures to make them more sluggish and less aggressive (interestingly thats also a technique I also use when attempting to combine unrelated queens into a single ant colony, cool them to <8C, leave them for 48hrs, and after that they behave as if they are related - if you put a new queen into a colony without this process, it'll almost certainly be killed)

Is there any info on the cooling method? I'm wondering if it would be most appropriately tested during ''cool season'', which my Sav is just gearing up for with reduction in basking times and ambient temps (based on the method used in the biawk artical, dont remember which issue)

Ok so with the manning I’ve used it on two water monitors one juvi and sub adult with aggression issues and my current female ornate. The water monitors (wild caught) took to it better than the ornate which took a couple more weeks due to their naturally more skiddish behavior and the fact that humans are not historically a source of food or in their direct environment given the dense habitat of the west African rainforest (we can argue all day on that being a factor). The water monitors on the other hand have encountered humans more frequently and from my personal research seem to tolerate our presence more or less.
We all know that monitors have a have displayed evidence for association learning. With just being in their environment I felt that the monitor whether aggressive are not began to comprehend that I was a fixture and source of food, and interaction would provide a positive outcome? Basically I provide recurring environmental events and feeding practices which increases the varanus’s response threshold to me. In other words my focus was to decrease the sensitivity over time Also the fact that monitors all have individual personalities must be put into account.

I felt that avain behavior vs. varanus behavior is not similar enough to employ all of the tactics that manning suggests.. Although similar, stress behavior is displayed like flight, hissing, biting, quick head movements, panting, etc. and that’s why it appealed to me. I did not find it at all necessary to employ the tactics of starvation, isolation unless (quarantining for illness) , sleep deprivation, etc.
When it came to employing manning I simply used it as a frame work to better approach unwanted behaviors when my varanus was being exposed to different things. The manning FRAMEWORK provided a heavily researched method because we all know that varanus keeping is an art form and just recently became a scientific phenomenon as opposed to falconry among other things is well established. The counter-conditioning phase is not considered manning but is the second phase of the process its basically what we all practice when using tongs to feed our monitor with a slight twist. its easier to use this techniques with water monitors ( they’re a bit braver). ornates respond better to the first part of manning and less to the the counter – conditioning part. When training our varanus’s we understand quickly that we must establish a mutual bond based on respect, food, ALLOT of patience and trust. I don’t suggest manning for every monitor or keeper unless you feel like a couple headaches.

[formica]

very interesting, thanks for taking the time to write that up!

[BH Varanus]

very interesting, thanks for taking the time to write that up!

no problem, hope my psycho babble helped at least a little or at least sparked an idea...lol

[mdfmonitor]

really don't like the cooling idea, 8 years ago it was my goal to handle, i'm just not bothered now!! more interested in the power they can exert & the feeding response & i just like watching them going about their business. :)

[formica]

really don't like the cooling idea, 8 years ago it was my goal to handle, i'm just not bothered now!! more interested in the power they can exert & the feeding response & i just like watching them going about their business. :)

I think at the very least it could be useful to reduce stress in certain situations, eg very agitated monitor requiring a vet visit - but in terms of ''taming'' ( i use the term loosely ) I'd agree that it probably shouldn't be a first option

[V87]

really don't like the cooling idea, 8 years ago it was my goal to handle, i'm just not bothered now!! more interested in the power they can exert & the feeding response & i just like watching them going about their business. :)

100 percent agree ... I think if u can't build trust or ur moni isn't up for it then that's how the cookie crumbles ... IMO to cool the animal to make it more placid is not cool but each to there own ya knw ....

Just not my bag

[smy_749]

how many monitors do you have formica?

[V87]

I think at the very least it could be useful to reduce stress in certain situations, eg very agitated monitor requiring a vet visit - but in terms of ''taming'' ( i use the term loosely ) I'd agree that it probably shouldn't be a first option

Don't think it would limit stress in anyway tbh

[formica]

Don't think it would limit stress in anyway tbh

when an animal can be examined and treated with as little forceful handling as possible, and is not thrashing around, potentially risking injury to itself and the handler - i think it is reasonable to say that stress has been reduced for the animal - no one is saying that it is a perfect solution tho.

darting an aggressive monitor, to examine and treat it, could be said to be less stressful, but it is also much more dangerous.

pinning an angry monitor to the ground to examine and treat it...would that not be considered significantly more stressful?

[V87]

when an animal can be examined and treated with as little forceful handling as possible, and is not thrashing around, potentially risking injury to itself and the handler - i think it is reasonable to say that stress has been reduced for the animal - no one is saying that it is a perfect solution tho.

darting an aggressive monitor, to examine and treat it, could be said to be less stressful, but it is also much more dangerous.

pinning an angry monitor to the ground to examine and treat it...would that not be considered significantly more stressful?

1. I hope no body would dart a monitor of any size or sp .... Far to risky

2. The chances are if it the problem with the mo I to start with cannot be rectified with good husbandry the moni will b in such bad shape u will not need to cool it for it to b placid

3. If it is in such bad shape it's going for a vet trip the cooling is not going to help the poor bugger ... It's basically another shock to a already hurt system

Yes pinning a moni to the ground is very stressful but if the beast is that lively why does it need a vet ?

Monis are very hardy and well bounce back from many health issues with correct husbandry and I knw this may not always b the case but subjecting a monitor to a unnecessary vet trip cooling or not is not good

[formica]

1. I hope no body would dart a monitor of any size or sp .... Far to risky

2. The chances are if it the problem with the mo I to start with cannot be rectified with good husbandry the moni will b in such bad shape u will not need to cool it for it to b placid

3. If it is in such bad shape it's going for a vet trip the cooling is not going to help the poor bugger ... It's basically another shock to a already hurt system

there are many reasons why a vet could be needed, which have nothing to do with husbandry, some of which (for eg serious wounds, prolapse, broken bones etc) would be made worse, or perhaps even go from serious, to life threatening injuries, by a highly active and agitated animal resisting a visit to a vet

[V87]

there are many reasons why a vet could be needed, which have nothing to do with husbandry, some of which (for eg serious wounds, prolapse, broken bones etc) would be made worse, or perhaps even go from serious, to life threatening injuries, by a highly active and agitated animal resisting a visit to a vet

Prolapse would b husbandry .....

Broken bones and severe wounds would also b husbandry .....

Unless u were handling a aggressive monitor and dropped it from a great height ...

[formica]

Prolapse would b husbandry .....

Broken bones and severe wounds would also b husbandry .....

Unless u were handling a aggressive monitor and dropped it from a great height ...

so you are suggesting that no monitor ever needs to be restrained and taken to a vet?

[V87]

so you are suggesting that no monitor ever needs to be restrained and taken to a vet?

Not at all .... I'm nearly suggesting that cooling may not b the way to go ...

[formica]

Not at all .... I'm nearly suggesting that cooling may not b the way to go ...

i think its situation and animal specific, I'd agree that in most cases it probably isn't the best option - that said, on the less extreme end of 'cooling', I dont think i'd let my monitor bask @ 150F if i knew I was going to be heading to the vet with him that day lol

[V87]

i think its situation and animal specific, I'd agree that in most cases it probably isn't the best option - that said, on the less extreme end of 'cooling', I dont think i'd let my monitor bask @ 150F if i knew I was going to be heading to the vet with him that day lol

True id put him in the gold plated leash and walk him ...:)

[V87]

Tbh I've always been vet lucky with the fact I have vet friends who will come round to visit wen ever and also I can get my medsand good advice from work so I suppose I have never been in the situation ur broken bones

[murrindindi]

Even if a monitor had been basking at a surface temp of 150f by the time you get to the vet and treatment starts the monitor`s core temp will have dropped significantly and it should be relatively "calm" (unless the vet lived next door, of course, in which case you wait for 30 minutes or so)! :)
How on earth do they cope with large nervous domestic dogs or cats?
If the animal was deliberately cooled for any length of time (even a few hours) it`s immune system is compromised, how is that in the animal`s best interest?
All the above mentioned maladies as has been stated ARE "husbandry" related.
Vets normally do NOT "dart" sick captive Varanids (shoot them with a dart gun)!?

[Toothless]

Even if a monitor had been basking at a surface temp of 150f by the time you get to the vet and treatment starts the monitor`s core temp will have dropped significantly and it should be relatively "calm" (unless the vet lived next door, of course, in which case you wait for 30 minutes or so)! :)
How on earth do they cope with large nervous domestic dogs or cats?
If the animal was deliberately cooled for any length of time (even a few hours) it`s immune system is compromised, how is that in the animal`s best interest?
All the above mentioned maladies as has been stated ARE "husbandry" related.
Vets normally do NOT "dart" sick captive Varanids (shoot them with a dart gun)!?

Would a dart gun even pierce their scales? My guy's been bitten by an adult mouse before, and it didn't do a lick of damage to him- he didn't even react.
How do they restrain komodos when a vet visit is needed? Are you able to 'tranq' in any way a monitor? Just curious :).

[V87]

Would a dart gun even pierce their scales? My guy's been bitten by an adult mouse before, and it didn't do a lick of damage to him- he didn't even react.
How do they restrain komodos when a vet visit is needed? Are you able to 'tranq' in any way a monitor? Just curious :).

Yep a dart gun would pierce the skin of a rep but the main importance if darting is getting the dart IM and on such a target it is very risky as u don't want to miss and pierce a vital organ ie the abdomen ... Which is easier said than done as the vet alshould always wait for the animal to remain still ...if they were to do anything if the sort the chances are it would more than likey b pole syringed rather than darted. ... And I have never seen a vet dart a reptile of any kind due to these reasons and tranq of any kind is incredibly stressful to the internal organs of a rep and usually isn't done unless under gas ... Most of the time keepers will handle man handle the reptile in question ie a large python or a large lizard or croc

But most nowerdays use target training or crush training so that they can take blood or scan or do what ever is needed without undue stress to the rep in question ... A nik nick down is the last result ... Usually the ailment is dealt with before it gets to this stage ... This is where good enrichment and training is worth it's weight in gold ....

[murrindindi]

Would a dart gun even pierce their scales? My guy's been bitten by an adult mouse before, and it didn't do a lick of damage to him- he didn't even react.
How do they restrain komodos when a vet visit is needed? Are you able to 'tranq' in any way a monitor? Just curious :).


As I said they would never use a dart gun in the first place, but it would be possible to give an injection (not that that would be common either).
Just because your monitor didn`t show much/any reaction to being bitten doesn`t mean he didn`t feel it (if it penetrated the scales he would have).
Some (not all) species have osteoderms (small bony plates) under the dorsal scales, but if my memory serves me, not the African Varanids.

[Toothless]

For vet visits, I would rather handle a 3 foot monster than have him sluggish and cold. Not only would it break my heart to see him like that, but I can't imagine shocking his system would be less stressful than a few minutes of forced handling. I'm sure there may be a situation where the cooling method would have its benefits, but I cannot think of any off-hand.

[Toothless]

Thank you for that information. I had always wondered how they went about it at zoos and such.

[Toothless]

As I said they would never use a dart gun in the first place, but it would be possible to give an injection (not that that would be common either).
Just because your monitor didn`t show much/any reaction to being bitten doesn`t mean he didn`t feel it (if it penetrated the scales he would have).
Some (not all) species have osteoderms (small bony plates) under the dorsal scales, but if my memory serves me, not the African Varanids.


There was no scale damage- the mouse's teeth didn't pierce through. I do not feed him live food anymore though (this was when he was young) because watching him get bitten scared me.

[murrindindi]

For vet visits, I would rather handle a 3 foot monster than have him sluggish and cold. Not only would it break my heart to see him like that, but I can't imagine shocking his system would be less stressful than a few minutes of forced handling. I'm sure there may be a situation where the cooling method would have its benefits, but I cannot think of any off-hand.

When my Ornate monitor was being treated he was relatively calm throughout, the only time he showed signs of discomfort was when the vet tried to get some blood, he needed to insert the needle 3 or 4 times (into the tailbase). During the scan they said he sat perfectly quietly (I wasn`t allowed in), there were 3 or 4 people in the room with him and he wasn`t familiar with any of them to any great extent. He was 7.5 feet, so I`m sure a relatively small but adult sized Savannah monitor could be handled fairly easily.
Is it stressful, yes of course, but there are times when that`s unavoidable.
One more reason we owe it to them to at least try and gain their "trust" and hopefully we`re able to handle (as in pick up) to some extent.

[murrindindi]

There was no scale damage- the mouse's teeth didn't pierce through. I do not feed him live food anymore though (this was when he was young) because watching him get bitten scared me.


It would be similar to the mouse biting your fingernail, perhaps it wouldn`t completely penetrate. You didn`t say which part was bitten?

[BH Varanus]

Even if a monitor had been basking at a surface temp of 150f by the time you get to the vet and treatment starts the monitor`s core temp will have dropped significantly and it should be relatively "calm" (unless the vet lived next door, of course, in which case you wait for 30 minutes or so)! :)
How on earth do they cope with large nervous domestic dogs or cats?
If the animal was deliberately cooled for any length of time (even a few hours) it`s immune system is compromised, how is that in the animal`s best interest?
All the above mentioned maladies as has been stated ARE "husbandry" related.
Vets normally do NOT "dart" sick captive Varanids (shoot them with a dart gun)!?

Currently the metabolic rate of varanus species is still undergoing new research ( from what I've read; like most of you guys i get my publications free; god bless academia) honestly its species specific. It;s really a circular argument and everyone that has owned any varanid over three years feels they earned the right to assume that their method supersedes anyone else’s. To be honest you can’t blame anyone for feeling that way I’m quite sure we all have the scar or been the victim of projectile feces and we’re all well within our right to say the least. However, mimicking the natural environments is hard as hell and unless you've been to the native country is almost impossible so to know the proper response metabolic responses is hard. Unless, of course you’re reading all the ‘catch and release’ publications that are sporadically written. When I was in Asia I saw monitors walking around at 61 degrees with no problem.
The trick to cooling depending on species is that any animal that is accustom to a particular ambient temp and basking environment will respond differently when sudden changes are made. In Florida niles have been known to totally shut down all movements in the center of roads do to temperature drops. Now call me crazy, but this is not a recorded behavior …lol. Basically what I’m saying is cooling is a less abrasive way to deal with aggressive reptiles. I only deal with aggressive and mistreated monitors (someone has to love them) and rehome them. Cooling has helped me in the quarantine phases and the vet checks. We all know that the word taming and varnus don’t go together we simply build working relationships and partnerships reinforced with food..lol . Cooling is an iffy science to be left to those that need it. I deal with death row monitors and I’m usually their last chance. My ornate took a year and half to calm down and she is just way to aggressive and still won’t even feed if I’m not the one feeding her and that’s why I never rehomed her ( writing a publication on her behavior now). Cooling for vet visits definitely bridged the relationship gap whether I want to admit it or not( she was in bad shape when received her). I always say try the theory, but hey friendly debates are what forums are for.

[mdfmonitor]

I’ve rescued a few over the last few years & got them back on form, I give them what they need & let them get on with it, cuts/ burns (small) will heal themselves in the right set-up!

Weak bones etc & the monitor will have little strength anyway compared to a healthy monitor, most problems can be cured without too much messing about and most will get back on form with a good diet.

But as previously mentioned once taken out of the hot climate they are used to, they soon cool (unless you live somewhere hot), a cool monitor is less of a challenge!

And I wouldn’t advise anyone to cool their monitor generally, some keepers cool there’s over winter (I shall end of this year) but you have reduce the humidity along with the cooling & your monitors have to come from the right part of the world to allow cooling.

[Toothless]

It would be similar to the mouse biting your fingernail, perhaps it wouldn`t completely penetrate. You didn`t say which part was bitten?
It was on his face. I of course freaked out, but there was no visible damage done. Still scared the poop out of me though:shocked:.