Will reptiles ever be considered pets like dogs or cats?

[slowhite03]

I'm just curious, I always see people saying how they used to have or they traded a snake for another snake. I'm just curious if people will ever consider reptiles in general as a pet for the duration of there lives and not keep them for a short duration and then trade them for something new. Now before this turns into a "I plan on keeping mine forever" thread, I know some will but its safe to say that most reptile owners won't

[rhiannon79]

Why would u want an animal if u didnt plan on loving it like a member of the family I love all my children my ball bo is one of my children and I only thouggt about finding him another owner because my husband freaked out when he bit me but hes not the animal lover I am and because of the place of the bite it bled real bad but he was worred for me but bo is doing great know that these great members have taught me a few things so I will not be letting him go and my husband has calmed down but like I said my pets are my kids and I love them all weather its my human kids or my bird or my turtles or my snake or my cat or my fish wouldnt trade any of them ...well my 17 year old human sometines is very aggressive and tge thought of trading ....lol just kidding love them all bad moods and all

[formica]

most reptile owners wont keep their reptiles fro life?

can you provide the stats which show that this statement is anything more than conjecture? is this how you view reptiles??

As far as I am concerned, a reptile is just as much a life long pet as any other animal, people who treat them as passing fads to show their friends how cool they are and swap around like pieces of clothing, are frankly...well...i'd better bite my tounge. needless to say they need a perspective adjustment, and to grow the ____ up.

[Starbuck]

I think part of the reasoning behind that is that it is easy to care for reptiles, and easy to breed them and care for the offspring, at least easier than a dog or cat, say. Also, rwptiles do not form the same, reciprocal emotional attachment as dogs and cats. In light of these things, it is very easy to view them as a 'project' rather than a member of the family. This is NOT saying that tjese people dont care deeply for thwir animals, but if you sell the offapring or a retired breeder, or trade them for the next upcoming morph or species or whatever, i dont think that in itself makes you a bad person. People are not going to treat.reptiles like dogs or cats, because they are NOT dogs and cats. You dont keep a bicycle the same way to maintain a car, to phrase it in another analogy. That doesnt mean you care more about the car, but you have.more financial (emotional) investment into it. Doesnt mean you sont love risi g your bike.'

[formica]

you seem to be saying that it is acceptable to treat a living animal as a disposable commodity - only 20-30 years ago, people had this same opinion of dogs and cats, and it took allot of work to get rid of it - I am dismayed to hear it being spouted in relation to reptiles. Yes, it does make someone a bad person, as far as I am concerned.

[StudentoReptile]

most reptile owners wont keep their reptiles fro life?

can you provide the stats which show that this statement is anything more than conjecture? is this how you view reptiles??

As far as I am concerned, a reptile is just as much a life long pet as any other animal, people who treat them as passing fads to show their friends how cool they are and swap around like pieces of clothing, are frankly...well...i'd better bite my tounge. needless to say they need a perspective adjustment, and to grow the ____ up.

Not everyone feels this way. I mean, I do now....but it wasn't always this way. I don't have stats or anything, but I go by my own experience and observation. Many keepers [at least here in the US] often get rid of herps a lot more readily than for dogs/cats. Reasons include, but limited to: gets too big or difficult to keep, boredom and ready for something new, it doesn't fit into their "breeding projects" and/or they have an opportunity to trade for something better, need money, etc.

IMHO, there will always be the "pet keepers" and then there will be "collectors" and "breeders" who only view the animals as assets to their collection or program, and these "assets" can change value at any time. As long as the animal is being cared for properly, I do not judge too harshly. Just pointing out that not everyone views their reptiles in the way.

[StudentoReptile]

We were just talking about this at our herp society board meeting the other night. The captive breeding of reptiles in the private sector is getting closer and closer to the level that dog breeding is. More and more people are wanting to get into the hobby for the wrong reasons, thinking its a get-rich-quick scheme. And you see more and more "normals" popping up on classifieds, mainly the staples like: BPs, corns, geckos, bearded dragons, sulcata tortoises.

Now as far as reptiles equaling the emotional capacity or companionship level of a cat or dog, I don't think that will ever happen, but that topic has been discussed at length many times before and I don't think that is what the OP was asking anyway.

[formica]

Not everyone feels this way. I mean, I do now....but it wasn't always this way. I don't have stats or anything, but I go by my own experience and observation. Many keepers [at least here in the US] often get rid of herps a lot more readily than for dogs/cats. Reasons include, but limited to: gets too big or difficult to keep, boredom and ready for something new, it doesn't fit into their "breeding projects" and/or they have an opportunity to trade for something better, need money, etc.

IMHO, there will always be the "pet keepers" and then there will be "collectors" and "breeders" who only view the animals as assets to their collection or program, and these "assets" can change value at any time. As long as the animal is being cared for properly, I do not judge too harshly. Just pointing out that not everyone views their reptiles in the way.

this was the case with cats and dogs aswell until not long ago, and its an attitude which must be changed, it shows a distinct lack of maturity within the culture of reptile keeping, understandably perhaps because it is younger than the domestication of dogs and cats - I am sure it will change, just as it did with dogs in the 80's, you may remeber the ''a dog isnt just for christmas'' campaign? its our responsibility to ensure that we push the principal imo


reptiles have enough stress to deal with being in captivity in the first place, let alone being shunted between owners - and if boredom really is a major factor in the decision to get rid of them, how long do those animals have to suffer at the hand of a bored person before they sent off to someone else?


And the whole argument about breeders annoys me too - Cat breeders do not behave in this way, so why should it be acceptable for reptile breeders

[StudentoReptile]

Remember that for the most part, reptiles are not social animals and do not suffer the same "separation anxieties" or whatever as a dog does from being passed around.

Nor do they have the same level of intelligence. Dogs, cats and to some extent, hookbills are very attuned to their surroundings and the behavior of their owners/keepers. Herps, fish and invertebrates are more primitive and straightforward in their needs: shelter, food, water and ideal environment. Meet those needs and most of these thrive well enough with minimal interaction from humans.

I think the problem is mostly with how people perceive them as opposed to actual stress to the animals themselves. Do I think it is right? Not necessarily, but on the flip side, this is never going to change. There is simply not enough people that feel as you do about pet reptiles as those who are for dogs or cats. As far as "pets" go, herps are more akin to fish [something to feed and look at it, but not companion animals] than they are to furry animals. You going to have to change the general public's perception of reptiles before start advocating pets' "humane" rights...a debatable topic within itself.

[lisas]

Although reptiles are very basic and straightforward in their needs, I, as a human, would never consider selling, trading, or giving away any of my pet reptiles. Although reptiles are primitive, I think routines must bring them a sense of security. I feed mine in the same areas every time, handle them in the same ways, etc. I just wouldn't feel right about giving them up because I made a commitment to them when I took them in. When I lose one, it is like losing a part of myself (especially if it was my fault). I'm sure I need them more than they need me, and I don't judge anyone else's choices at all. My humble opinion is just my personal view.

[SSSSnakes]

I work at a pet store and unfortunately a lot of people treat all animals as disposable. They buy a pet and when they get tired of the pet they sell or surrender it to someone else so they can get something different. In today's disposable society even animals are not considered a lifetime commitment. But, why should this surprise any of us, as we also treat people and marriages the same way.

[rhiannon79]

I work at a pet store and unfortunately a lot of people treat all animals as disposable. They buy a pet and when they get tired of the pet they sell or surrender it to someone else so they can get something different. In today's disposable society even animals are not considered a lifetime commitment. But, why should this surprise any of us, as we also treat people and marriages the same way.

I agree that this is true people do treat all species and marriages this way disposable and replaceable I myself dont see any living breathing soul as disposable so I don't get it

[mrgrimm]

The only way I would ever "re-home" an animal would be if I felt that the animal was suffering in some way under my care...I am 30 years old now and currently own a Rottweiler (had him for 11 years) a Pit bull (about 2 years) 3 fish (7 years) 2 mice (1 1/2 years) and now "Pickle" our Ball Python. I would never consider getting rid of any of them for financial interests or just because I got bored.

Not everyone gets emotionally attached to living creatures like some of us do, just the way it is. The best we can do is raise our kids in a way that teaches them everything is special in it's own way and therefore should be respected and treated as you would like to be.

[rhiannon79]

The only way I would ever "re-home" an animal would be if I felt that the animal was suffering in some way under my care...I am 30 years old now and currently own a Rottweiler (had him for 11 years) a Pit bull (about 2 years) 3 fish (7 years) 2 mice (1 1/2 years) and now "Pickle" our Ball Python. I would never consider getting rid of any of them for financial interests or just because I got bored.

Not everyone gets emotionally attached to living creatures like some of us do, just the way it is. The best we can do is raise our kids in a way that teaches them everything is special in it's own way and therefore should be respected and treated as you would like to be.

Very well put I am 33 married 13 years together 15 and he does not have the love for my animals they are mine we have for children 17 ,16 ,12 and 2 and I have 5 fish for 10y , my cat 9y, my dog 8y ,my ball 7m ,my turtles 5m and my baby jenday conure a week and a half and they are all mine and trust me all the animals r way easier to clean up after and handle way less stressfull and my animals love me and arent near as snappy as my humans my ball bit me once and it was my own fault but I rather take a bite anytime oppossed to getting in agruments with the hubby or my teenagers their down right viscous. ..lol

[Hannibalcanibal]

Alright, so since we are all spewing information about ourselves...

I am Fifteen years old, And i have a KSB, ball python, uromastyx, a hognose snake, two axolotls, a tiger salamander, two leopard geckos, and of course my little dog. It is a lot of work for me, but i still do it and would never dream of giving one animal up for a dumb reason, and if there is an animal i want but know i can't have (i.e monitor lizard), then i don't get it.

If i ever did have to give an animal up (i.e my family is not willing to take care of them and i'm going off to college), then i'd make darn well sure that it is going to a good home, i.e a ssnakess member or a friend.

Of course, before i got my leopard geckos (my first reptiles), i did a lot of research, and made sure my family would take care of them when i went off to college. Whenever i leave home, (ex- going to my grandparent's to visit), then they take care of them, and i always come back to happy animals and clean cages. This goes for all my pets.

[mrgrimm]

I haven't been a member here long, but I would imagine most members here would probably be more on the side of their snakes are family members (like me). It doesn't hurt my feelings though if someone was interested in trading animals or selling them as long as the animals are kept properly and always treated with care. Some animals are more suited to certain people than others. For instance, most dogs need attention and affection just as much as food and water, where as it seems your average reptile will probably be fine alone for extended periods of time as long as basic needs are met.

[Hannibalcanibal]

I haven't been a member here long, but I would imagine most members here would probably be more on the side of their snakes are family members (like me). It doesn't hurt my feelings though if someone was interested in trading animals or selling them as long as the animals are kept properly and always treated with care. Some animals are more suited to certain people than others. For instance, most dogs need attention and affection just as much as food and water, where as it seems your average reptile will probably be fine alone for extended periods of time as long as basic needs are met.

Meh. I don't think of my snakes as family members- my family is family members. Snakes are just my pets- more valuable than a toy or computer, but not quite a person yet.

And yes, they will be fine alone. That's why its best not to humanise them.

[Herpophiliac972]

I think that reptile keeping will expand and adapt as we learn more about them. Especially how they interact/react to and with certain things. In my experience, one of the main reasons that people do not keep reptiles as they would a cat or dog is because cats and dogs seem to interact and care more about their owners than a reptile, invert, amphibian, or fish would. Whether this is because they are not as domesticated as cats or dogs, we can't "read" them like we could a cat or a dog, or maybe they are just not "designed" to be kept as a cat or dog would, it could be that only time will tell. However, some people do keep and care for them as a cat or dog (sometimes even as their own offspring), and some don't. There will most likely never be a time were all animals are kept and cared for the same way, the general public has been warming up to the idea of more exotic pets lately. This is difficult, however, with shows like "Fatal Attractions" making it sound as if the hoarders and the people who have animals that they do not care for correctly (or even know how to) are all the people involved in the herp "industry" (or hobby). They take the words of responsible people and warp them to make it sound like they are "admitting" that that is the way it is. There is no real way to know whether it will happen until it does. Hopefully it will, though. All animals big and small deserve the same amount of devotion, attention, and care.

[Aaron_S]

I have been here for a long while. I have seen enough people say blah blah blah I am keeping them forever blah blah blah.

Then comes all the threads and posts about downsizing for this that and the other reason. Sure some people are legit and for serious reasons need to downsize but under normal conditions would not. Happens with dogs and cats too. My point still stands, people are liars and really do not plan to keep them that long.

[Starbuck]

back to the original header of this thread: will reptiles ever be considered pets [in the same way as] dogs and cats?

No, because they are NOT like dogs and cats.
It has nothing to do with the transience of the animal's home/number of owners, etc etc. Adopting a shelter dog, rehoming a snake, buying a used car////there is nothing inherently wrong with rehoming (snakes, cars, dogs). Personally i make as much of a commitment as i can to care for the animal for the duration of its life, But i do NOT treat them like i do my dog or my cats. They have different needs (emotionally/mentally/environmentally), and i have them for a different reason (i didnt get my snakes because i wanted an animal to cuddle with and kiss my face and take on walks).

[Mikoh4792]

They have different needs (emotionally/mentally/environmentally), and i have them for a different reason (i didnt get my snakes because i wanted an animal to cuddle with and kiss my face and take on walks).

This is an obvious to some, but very good point nonetheless. Too many people nowadays trying to make reptiles all cute and cuddly. IMO reptiles deserve more respect and interest than that.

[ErikBush97]

This is an obvious to some, but very good point nonetheless. Too many people nowadays trying to make reptiles all cute and cuddly. IMO reptiles deserve more respect and interest than that.

For sure, man... I do adore my snakes, but I also respect them, and I know that they don't want to cuddle or play.

Edit: And that being said, although they're solitary animals, I firmly believe that some snakes enjoy human interaction. Just like dogs. Some dogs love human interaction, some dogs don't mind it, and some hate it. I think it's the same with snakes.

[Mikoh4792]

For sure, man... I do adore my snakes, but I also respect them, and I know that they don't want to cuddle or play.

Edit: And that being said, although they're solitary animals, I firmly believe that some snakes enjoy human interaction. Just like dogs. Some dogs love human interaction, some dogs don't mind it, and some hate it. I think it's the same with snakes.

Yes but dogs are not solitary animals. They are social animals and have the capacity to feel emotions.

I don't mind if people believe that snakes can enjoy interaction but I see no reason to believe it.

[rhiannon79]

Well I defently dont think my snake is gonna ever be all friendly and come to me when I call it but I am one of those i guess that really enjoy getting him out letting him explore the house and outside I just dont see them wanting to just sit in their enclosure like their prisoners in the wild they roam and explore so why just look at them

[ErikBush97]

Good point but I consider all my pets family. Regardless of if THEY feel emotions and attachment to other animals, I feel emotions and I feel attachment to other people and animals. I spend a lot of time with my snakes, and they all have their own personalities, and all have their own features which make them unique enough for me to feel love for them. Just me. I think of them as living breathing animals, NOT collectors items... They are stamps or baseball cards... They're animals. Not saying anyone within this thread feels like that, but what's the point of a pet if you don't love them??

[drumcrush]

Good point but I consider all my pets family. Regardless of if THEY feel emotions and attachment to other animals, I feel emotions and I feel attachment to other people and animals. I spend a lot of time with my snakes, and they all have their own personalities, and all have their own features which make them unique enough for me to feel love for them. Just me. I think of them as living breathing animals, NOT collectors items... They are stamps or baseball cards... They're animals. Not saying anyone within this thread feels like that, but what's the point of a pet if you don't love them??

^^^^^^^^^^^^ yep, yep.

[Mikoh4792]

I feel emotions and I feel attachment to other people and animals. I spend a lot of time with my snakes, and they all have their own personalities, and all have their own features which make them unique enough for me to feel love for them.

I agree, each one of my snakes has it's own "personality" which makes them unique and interesting.


but what's the point of a pet if you don't love them??

With certain animals I wouldn't say you need to love them in order to get fulfillment from keeping them as "pets". I get fulfillment from observing and understanding their natural behaviors. Taking them out to be handled once in a while is also fun. However I wouldn't say I love my snakes.

Either way, I don't think neither way is wrong.

[Corey209]

Meh. I don't think of my snakes as family members- my family is family members. Snakes are just my pets- more valuable than a toy or computer, but not quite a person yet.

And yes, they will be fine alone. That's why its best not to humanise them.

My snakes personally are in no way more valuable than my $2500 custom built computer :p

Personally, snakes are snakes, I don't name them and I don't handle them much. Make sure the temps and humidity are right, and I feed them. They're cool to have and fun to educate other people on them.


but what's the point of a pet if you don't love them??
What's the point of loving an animal that can't love you back? My dog on the other hand, I love.

[ErikBush97]

Personally, snakes are snakes, I don't name them and I don't handle them much. Make sure the temps and humidity are right, and I feed them.

I think of my snakes as animals. Not collectors items. I think that's where our difference in opinion is.

[formica]

they are living animals, they feel fear, they feel pain, they can suffer - humans taking them into captivity have a responsibility to them, that responsibility should be for all life, and i dont see what their emotional capacity or lack of fur has to do with it. People who cannot accept that responsibility, have no business holding them captive.


This view of reptiles as disposable will change I am sure of that - just as it did with other animals, those who hold onto their selfish ideals on this issue, will find themselves up against fierce opposition when the time comes, and it will come.

[exwizard]

I have in my care, 40 snakes, 4 of which, I am fostering. I do consider all my snakes as pets and I do pull out snakes, handle them and interact with them. Almost all my snakes I have kept over the years. There are only a few I have had to rehome because of tub space issues, but they went to good homes. That said, I still miss them.

I had a dog a few years that we brought home as a puppy and that I considered a member of my family throughout her life. In fact, I delayed putting her to sleep by 2 years because it was so hard to do that until her health issues were so obvious I had to do it. She was well loved all 14 years of her life.

All my snakes I have now, I feel the same way as I did for my dog. Yes, my collection has grown over the last few years and yes, I have put the skids on new acquisitions a number of times, but from where I sit now, I love my snakes I currently have and I do plan on keeping them their entire lives, exactly the same way I did for my dog.

I know people who view and treat their snakes differently than that and I'm ok with that. I'm just wanting what I think is best for my snakes.

[Hannibalcanibal]

I certainly love my snakes, just not on a human level. They are snakes, i am a person. My dog, i love on a human level. My family, i love on a human level. Snakes, in my eyes, are a class of their own. Not a disposable toy, like a bb-gun or a computer, but not quite yet a person, with human emotions and intelligence. Closer still to a person than a toy, but not yet a human.

I love them as animals, as pets, but not as people.

[StudentoReptile]

I suppose it depends on what definition of "pet" one is working from.

[exwizard]

I suppose it depends on what definition of "pet" one is working from.

That's it exactly. I knew Dustie was a dog and I treated her like a pet dog. I know my snakes are what they are and I treat them like pet snakes.

[rhiannon79]

I understand but since snakes cant show that they love and know u , you really cant know for sure 100% but my ball is very found of me a while back when I was feeding in a tub my snake had just eaten and I was going to move him back he was all tense so I started talking to him and at the sound of my voice he relaxed u could tell he lossened his musels and came to my side of the box my family was there to witness (the kids love to watch him eat) that only happened once but when I hold him he takes his head and rubs it on my hand and I think he really enjoys being held and being able to explore that being said they a t e tempermental and sometimes they just dont want to be messed with but to say they cant feel atleast some sort of emotion to us noone really knows 100% my snake is awesome and weather he feels love or trust for me idc im just gonna beleve he does

[ErikBush97]

My snakes personally are in no way more valuable than my $2500 custom built computer
You believe that an object is more important than the lives you care for? :/

I think that kind of attitude is wrong. Not just for snakes... For any living being.
I've spent $1,256 + for my six snakes. My guitar cost me $3,500. My snakes are more valuable than my Les Paul.

[Mikoh4792]

You believe that an object is more important than the lives you care for? :/

I think that kind of attitude is wrong. Not just for snakes... For any living being.
I've spent $1,256 + for my six snakes. My guitar cost me $3,500. My snakes are more valuable than my Les Paul.

For some their only value is monetary.

[lisas]

Any life is precious. Weather that animal is an ant or a human, this gig here is their one life. If one life is taken as food for another, or killed to protect oneself, I understand that, it's nature. Equating an object as being more important that a life, however, isn't something that I could ever understand unless that object (roof over our heads, means to buy food, medical supplies, etc.) is necessary to our own health / survival. I would give up anything to have my pet back.

[mistersprinkles]

Why would u want an animal if u didnt plan on loving it like a member of the family I love all my children my ball bo is one of my children and I only thouggt about finding him another owner because my husband freaked out when he bit me but hes not the animal lover I am and because of the place of the bite it bled real bad but he was worred for me but bo is doing great know that these great members have taught me a few things so I will not be letting him go and my husband has calmed down but like I said my pets are my kids and I love them all weather its my human kids or my bird or my turtles or my snake or my cat or my fish wouldnt trade any of them ...well my 17 year old human sometines is very aggressive and tge thought of trading ....lol just kidding love them all bad moods and all

You really could use some punctuation. :blink: It'd be easier to comprehend.

As far as keeping reptiles/fish/invertebrates for their entire lives is concerned, I would say it is not the same as a dog or a parrot. They recognize you, love you, need you, and suffer seperation anxiety when they are away from you.

Reptiles do not even have the part of the brain responsible for love, friendship, attachment. They aren't even truly capable of learning. They're capable of mild problem solving (how do I get out of this box?), but only using the mental tools they were born with. They do not learn anything new along the path of life.

So how can one become attached to an animal that has no ability to reciprocate that attachment? It makes no sense to me.

[poison123]

You really could use some punctuation. :blink: It'd be easier to comprehend.

As far as keeping reptiles/fish/invertebrates for their entire lives is concerned, I would say it is not the same as a dog or a parrot. They recognize you, love you, need you, and suffer seperation anxiety when they are away from you.

Reptiles do not even have the part of the brain responsible for love, friendship, attachment. They aren't even truly capable of learning. They're capable of mild problem solving (how do I get out of this box?), but only using the mental tools they were born with. They do not learn anything new along the path of life.

So how can one become attached to an animal that has no ability to reciprocate that attachment? It makes no sense to me.

Though I too believe reptiles don't have emotions such as love or depresion keep in mind that this has not been proven. What has been proven is that reptiles do not have a limbic system which controls emotions in mamals other then fear and anger. The full reptile brain has not been examined. So who knows if they store their emotions else where. As far as not learning anything new. I don't agree with that. Clearly some aggresive reptiles learn that humans are not a threat.

This is to the best of my knowledge :)

[rhiannon79]

[QUOTE=mistersprinkles;879059]You really could use some punctuation. :blink

I'm sorry about the punctuation but with four kids I rarely get on our house computer so to do long replys on my phone is difficult and it would take so long to write all I needed to say but I will try in the future sorry :hmm:

[ErikBush97]

Though I too believe reptiles don't have emotions such as love or depresion keep in mind that this has not been proven. What has been proven is that reptiles do not have a limbic system which controls emotions in mamals other then fear and anger. The full reptile brain has not been examined. So who knows if they store their emotions else where. As far as not learning anything new. I don't agree with that. Clearly some aggresive reptiles learn that humans are not a threat.

This is to the best of my knowledge :)

Snakes do not have a prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain that allows you to feel emotions)

However I agree that reptiles can SURELY learn... Learning that humans aren't predators is not a problem solving situation. That's something thry recognize from previous interactions. And my Dumeril's boa (for example) if I take her to a new place she stays tightly coiled around me. They recognize familiar smells and familiar environments.

[Corey209]

You believe that an object is more important than the lives you care for? :/

I think that kind of attitude is wrong. Not just for snakes... For any living being.
I've spent $1,256 + for my six snakes. My guitar cost me $3,500. My snakes are more valuable than my Les Paul.

An object that is more resourceful than a snake, I need a computer for many things including college. If I wasn't able to supply the snake it's needs I wouldn't sell whatever I have to keep doing so, I would rehome them to someone else who can take care of them. Never will I take a reptile in the public like a pet, it's just nothing like a companion. My dog on the other hand I would sell some of my possessions for, like others have said, they're two different kinds of pets.

[ErikBush97]

An object that is more resourceful than a snake, I need a computer for many things including college. If I wasn't able to supply the snake it's needs I wouldn't sell whatever I have to keep doing so, I would rehome them to someone else who can take care of them. Never will I take a reptile in the public like a pet, it's just nothing like a companion. My dog on the other hand I would sell some of my possessions for, like others have said, they're two different kinds of pets.

There's a lot of ways that I'd like to reply but I'm just going to sit this one out.

[mistersprinkles]

[QUOTE=mistersprinkles;879059]You really could use some punctuation. :blink

I'm sorry about the punctuation but with four kids I rarely get on our house computer so to do long replys on my phone is difficult and it would take so long to write all I needed to say but I will try in the future sorry :hmm:

You did it again. :p

Snakes do not have a prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain that allows you to feel emotions)

However I agree that reptiles can SURELY learn... Learning that humans aren't predators is not a problem solving situation. That's something thry recognize from previous interactions. And my Dumeril's boa (for example) if I take her to a new place she stays tightly coiled around me. They recognize familiar smells and familiar environments.
Clearly some aggresive reptiles learn that humans are not a threat.

This is to the best of my knowledge :)

Insects can learn that humans are not a threat. A praying mantis once picked up from a field will quickly "tame" and allow itself to be picked up again and again, with no resistance.

Insects can recognize environments too. I don't think anybody would call insects intelligent.

[ErikBush97]

Why do you own snakes? Not trying to be rude or anything. I'm honestly curious.

[Corey209]

I enjoy having them? All my animals have the proper husbandry and that's literally all they need.

[ErikBush97]

I enjoy having them? All my animals have the proper husbandry and that's literally all they need.
And all a dog really needs is food, and somewhere to go to the bathroom.
Why are they being looked at differently? And again... I'm just trying to see this from your angle. I'm not trying to be rude, or judge you, etc.

[Corey209]

Dog's need affection, snakes do not. A three year old dog you've raised from a puppy will be depressed if you were to put him in a different home, a snake would be fine.

[Mikoh4792]

Dog's need affection, snakes do not. A three year old dog you've raised from a puppy will be depressed if you were to put him in a different home, a snake would be fine.

This is right. A dog's life is incomplete without affection or socializing. Snakes don't need any affection whatsoever. It's not a part of their system.

[ErikBush97]

Dog's need affection, snakes do not. A three year old dog you'I've raised from a puppy will be depressed if you were to put him in a different home, a snake would be fine.

That's not necessarily true.. A lot of dogs would do fine in that situation.

I've seen snakes that are docile with their owners and aggressive with others.
Again... Snakes have the ability to recognize smells. Not all people smell the same...

[Corey209]

That's not necessarily true.. A lot of dogs would do fine in that situation.

I've seen snakes that are docile with their owners and aggressive with others.
Again... Snakes have the ability to recognize smells. Not all people smell the same...

I can guarantee a dog with just food and water would be extremely anxious without affection or exercise. None of my snakes are aggressive with me and I handle them maybe once a week.

[ErikBush97]

I can guarantee a dog with just food and water would be extremely anxious without affection or exercise.

We're talking about what the animal needs, remember? They benefit from affection and exercise substantially, but they'd live without.

[Mikoh4792]

We're talking about what the animal needs, remember? They benefit from affection and exercise substantially, but they'd live without.

What an animal needs to survive and what an animal needs to have a complete, fulfilling life are two different things.

Dogs need affection in the sense that they are social animals and are programmed to be so. Just like humans. It's how they evolved.

But still, who is to say that lack of affection does not kill? Stress kills, and humans and other animals that are programmed to feel affection by socializing get stressed from isolation for prolonged periods of time.

[mistersprinkles]

Why do you own snakes? Not trying to be rude or anything. I'm honestly curious.

I don't own any right now. But I have in the past. I can't say I ever respected them mentally.

[red ink]

All mine are pets...

In saying that I do trade hatchies... I prefer it to selling.
Some years I would breed some of my reptiles only on the request of friends for trades.

[StudentoReptile]

LOL...I love it when people throw the "all animals are sacred" and "every life is precious" argument in there. Do you really feel this way when you see a cockroach run across your kitchen or a black widow in your garage?

Just an observation from being an ACO, there are definitely some dogs that do not seek out human attention. One could call them feral, these dogs are really no more than a funny looking coyote in terms of behavior.

But anyway, I love these threads because it definitely shows who is guilty of anthropomorphization and who is not.

[formica]

anthropomorphism has nothing to do with it, it is just as irrelevant as the rest of the rationalizations people try to use to justify their belief that reptiles are nothing but disposable commodities.

and further, why should anyone be ''guilty'' of anthropomorphism? infact you have it backwards, considering humans to be anything more than animals, so that other animals need to be anthropomophised in order to compare them to humans, dismisses the fact that humans, are just another animal, with exactly the same right to exist as every other animal. cockroaches included.

[mistersprinkles]

anthropomorphism has nothing to do with it, it is just as irrelevant as the rest of the rationalizations people try to use to justify their belief that reptiles are nothing but disposable commodities.

and further, why should anyone be ''guilty'' of anthropomorphism? infact you have it backwards, considering humans to be anything more than animals, so that other animals need to be anthropomophised in order to compare them to humans, dismisses the fact that humans, are just another animal, with exactly the same right to exist as every other animal. cockroaches included.

The following animals have no right to exist:

Bed bugs, mosquitoes, black flies, deer flies, cockroaches, ticks, lice, fleas, mites, internal parasites.

[poison123]

The following animals have no right to exist:

Bed bugs, mosquitoes, black flies, deer flies, cockroaches, ticks, lice, fleas, mites, internal parasites.

But cockroaches are what feed my animals :(

And with out them who knows how dirty the world would be.

[ErikBush97]

The following animals have no right to exist:

Bed bugs, mosquitoes, black flies, deer flies, cockroaches, ticks, lice, fleas, mites, internal parasites.

What do you do to contribute to the planet that they don't?

You don't like them so they don't have a right to exist... Pshh.....

[Awaiting Abyss]

I care about my snake just as much as my dogs and cats. I also feels that Lithir (my snake) really cares about me. I believe that a lot of people think snakes and other reptiles don't have any attachment, but they just show their emotions differently than mammals.
I see all of my animals as family members. Even the unnamed mice I have (I don't name my mice until they are tame and have earned a name).

[poison123]

I also feels that Lithir (my snake) really cares about me. I believe that a lot of people think snakes and other reptiles don't have any attachment, but they just show their emotions differently than mammals.


Care to explain on how they show their emotions?

[Awaiting Abyss]

Here is an article that describes it more.
Reptile Emotions - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences (http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions#.Um7eHT_Srdo)

Affection to a reptile is more of favoring someone or being comfortable with them, etc. Its not like mammals where they nuzzle, lick, groom, etc.

Lithir favors me over my husband because he seldom holds him. So when he holds him, Lithir acts differently than when I hold him; more reserved, I'd say. He also makes a distinct head movement (I can't really describe it very well... He sort of lifts his head and tilts it while looking at me) when he wants me to pick him up.

Its like me. I have issues showing emotions around people. My family constantly remark on how I'm "Ms. Emotionless" and I never show excitement or any kind of emotion. I actually am very emotional I just don't show it very well outwardly and people seem to misunderstand me in that way. I can be very excited about something but to people besides my husband, I appear to be down in the dumps.

[EL Ziggy]

I believe any animal that is cared for properly can feel safe and secure but I don't think our snakes can recognize the love we bestow upon them, nor can they reciprocate our affections like a dog or cat can.

[StudentoReptile]

The following animals have no right to exist:

Bed bugs, mosquitoes, black flies, deer flies, cockroaches, ticks, lice, fleas, mites, internal parasites.

Why? Who decides this? You?:suspicious:

[StudentoReptile]

anthropomorphism has nothing to do with it, it is just as irrelevant as the rest of the rationalizations people try to use to justify their belief that reptiles are nothing but disposable commodities.

and further, why should anyone be ''guilty'' of anthropomorphism? infact you have it backwards, considering humans to be anything more than animals, so that other animals need to be anthropomophised in order to compare them to humans, dismisses the fact that humans, are just another animal, with exactly the same right to exist as every other animal. cockroaches included.

Anthropomorphism is totally relevant to the discussion because quite simply, people are doing it and it is very evident in their posts. Hence my previous observation. Denying it or saying that it is irrelevant is like claiming you don't believe the earth is round or the sun does not exist. Those facts are very true.

[Hannibalcanibal]

Well, unless you throw a god/divine purpose into the equation., none of us really have a "right" to exist. We just do. What does the universe care about this speck of dust called earth?

It's all as you see it.

I have no problem how someone sees their snakes, as long as they don't see it as a disposable object (they can still feel pain, you know), and as long as they don't see it as a person ( a animal's life will never, ever be worth as much as a human's).

[StudentoReptile]

The fact that we are using the technology literally at our fingerprints and having a discussion on rights [among many other things] about different species besides ourselves only indicate that we are somehow separate from the rest of the animal kingdom. I understand that it is nigh impossible to prove a negative, but we have no evidence any other species on this planet is capable of not only creating complex architecture & technology as well as contemplate the cosmos & our own mortality [and the possibility of [an afterlife], so it is the general assumption that all others are "lower" [lack of a better word] than us.

That said, I never claimed that other species are disposable or do not have value or "rights," only that there are some people who see them as such. But I'm no hypocrite either. I will freely admit that I do not view spiders and roaches the same way I view birds or that I view reptiles the same way I view a horse, an elephant or a dog. Whether they have "rights" or not is subjective; for vermin, I could care less. I will still not hesitate to squash a roach or black widow with extreme prejudice if I see them in/around my home. Those who do not like this can just deal with it.

[rhiannon79]

[QUOTE=StudentoReptile;879258]Congratulations...you have just won the "Most Ridiculous Post I have read Today" award.

Anthropomorphism I guess I will be the winner if most ridiculous what does anthropomorphism mean!!??

[rhiannon79]

Nevermind I looked it up and I guess I do believe my snake likes me I thing he enjoys getting out and exploring and I dont see y it even matters if thats what I believe and it makes me happy and my snake is happy then who cares what anyone else thinks

[mistersprinkles]

But cockroaches are what feed my animals :(

And with out them who knows how dirty the world would be.

How about none of those have a right to exist in my home :blink:?

[mistersprinkles]

Why? Who decides this? You?:suspicious:

Anything that's out to get me definitely doesn't deserve to live as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if that's just the way nature made them, and it isn't their fault.

I've never felt guilty about killing mosquitoes. Or house flies for that matter. They make an annoying buzzing sound and land on my food. They die. As far as ticks, bedbugs, mites, ringworm, does anybody think they have a right to exist? I sure don't.

I realize a lot of people on this forum keep a roach tank for food but outside of that do roaches really have a right to be here? Even though they've been here for billions of years or whatever I just don't think they do.

I go on vacation in the summers to the south of Spain and there are flying cockroaches there that are a good 2" in length. I always squash them.

[formica]

Anthropomorphism is totally relevant to the discussion because quite simply, people are doing it and it is very evident in their posts. Hence my previous observation. Denying it or saying that it is irrelevant is like claiming you don't believe the earth is round or the sun does not exist. Those facts are very true.

you cant make something fact by using absurd comparisons in an attempt to discredit someones opinion. you are the one making anthropomorphism a principal part of the argument, regardless of whether or not people do it is irrelevant in regard to the point that reptiles should not be treated as a disposable commodity.

[infernalis]

I realize a lot of people on this forum keep a roach tank for food but outside of that do roaches really have a right to be here? Even though they've been here for billions of years or whatever I just don't think they do.

I'm sure something got lost in the wording.

However, I am going to respond as I interpret.

Roaches have every right to be here, we may not wish to share the same address with them, but that does not deny their right to exist.

I agree, I am NOT going to sit at my dinner table while insects and vermin walk all over my meal, however, out in nature, these life forms serve a purpose.

Sure some may argue that rats caused the plague of Europe, Guess what? The human race at the time needed the cull. We rose from the dark ages as a result, so those rats played a very important role in history.

Every creature right down to a gnat or worm has a place in our eco system called earth, and unfortunately for these organisms, human sprawl is hogging up their habitat.

Know why mosquitoes bother you? declines in amphibian populations, the vast wetlands that once produced millions of frogs, newts and salamanders have been filled in, dozed over and made into plazas. Mosquitoes can breed in mud puddles, frogs can't.

People hate coyotes for getting their pet cats, but maybe if they kept the damn cat in the house, the coyotes wouldn't be killing them.

I could go on all night, but I think I made my point.

[poison123]

I realize a lot of people on this forum keep a roach tank for food but outside of that do roaches really have a right to be here? Even though they've been here for billions of years or whatever I just don't think they do.

Some people also keep them as pets. Like myself.

I definetelly believe roaches should be here and I'm glad they are. They help break down dead animals, dead plants, and other organic things. They are harmless outside of your home.

[formica]

roaches have just as much right to exist as any other animal, including humans...and they will still exist long after humanity has wiped itself out

[Mikoh4792]

Here is an article that describes it more.
Reptile Emotions - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences (http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions#.Um7eHT_Srdo)

Affection to a reptile is more of favoring someone or being comfortable with them, etc. Its not like mammals where they nuzzle, lick, groom, etc.

Lithir favors me over my husband because he seldom holds him. So when he holds him, Lithir acts differently than when I hold him; more reserved, I'd say. He also makes a distinct head movement (I can't really describe it very well... He sort of lifts his head and tilts it while looking at me) when he wants me to pick him up.

Its like me. I have issues showing emotions around people. My family constantly remark on how I'm "Ms. Emotionless" and I never show excitement or any kind of emotion. I actually am very emotional I just don't show it very well outwardly and people seem to misunderstand me in that way. I can be very excited about something but to people besides my husband, I appear to be down in the dumps.

How can you attribute that behavior in your anecdote to affection or emotion? The most you can reasonably get out of that is your snake choosing comfort zones over unknown territory.

I'll take a cave over a tipi during a blizzard, does that mean I show affection towards the cave?

[StudentoReptile]

you cant make something fact by using absurd comparisons in an attempt to discredit someones opinion. you are the one making anthropomorphism a principal part of the argument, regardless of whether or not people do it is irrelevant in regard to the point that reptiles should not be treated as a disposable commodity.

That sword you're welding swings both ways; be careful when playing with large blades without little experience. I could throw the same argument back at you because who brought the notion of them being disposable commodities into the discussion? How is that relevant to them being considered equal to dogs or cats when anthropomorphism is not?

And also look back at my original post. I only was pointing out that these types of discussions bring out people trying to anthropomorphize, not necessarily that the subject was relevant. But whatever, whatever you believe makes no difference to me as long as your animals are cared for and handled properly. But if the shoe fits....:rolleyes:

[Awaiting Abyss]

How can you attribute that behavior in your anecdote to affection or emotion? The most you can reasonably get out of that is your snake choosing comfort zones over unknown territory.

I'll take a cave over a tipi during a blizzard, does that mean I show affection towards the cave?

Or maybe you're just expecting a reptile to show affection the same way as mammals so you don't understand my post? Its clear that snakes show emotion. No one can deny that they can feel anger, aggression, calm and fear. I also believe they can feel love.

[Mikoh4792]

Or maybe you're just expecting a reptile to show affection the same way as mammals so you don't understand my post? Its clear that snakes show emotion. No one can deny that they can feel anger, aggression, calm and fear. I also believe they can feel love.

No I clearly understood your post, and you are making assumptions about me expecting a snake to show affection the same way as mammals do. Please don't do that.

What I am asking is how can you attribute the behavior described in your post to be affection? Again, the most you can reasonably get out of that is choosing a comfort zone over unknown territory.

I would say that is wishful thinking at best. I am not talking about emotions such as anger or fear. I'm talking about love. There is no good reason in your post to believe that snakes feel affection towards human beings.

I am the skeptic, convince me. What is a solitary animal designed to live alone, on an instinctual life cycle doing feeling love towards a primate?

[rhiannon79]

I love this thread seems there are very mixed opinions on 5he subject

[muffiewrites]

When I got Spike (Honduran milk snake), I did so with a lot of thought on the matter. I picked the species because I did not want to deal with a constrictor that generally got longer than 6 feet, and thicker around than my wrist. Spike is slim and his length will always stay manageable. I want a room full of herps, there are so many gorgeous herps and so many gorgeous ways to develop natural vivs for them. I decided, from the get go that Spike would be it. I played around with the idea of adding something else to Spike's viv, but an hour of research put that to bed. Spike is not a social animal. In Spike's world, all other animals are either to be eaten or will eat him. It's how a snake's world works. Riki Tiki Tavvi isn't reality.

I like to anthropomorphize Spike, by attributing emotional logic to his various behaviors. When he sticks his head out of his hide and watches me, I label that ruminating. If he sticks his head out of the substrate, particularly beneath a plant's leaves, I label that being sneaky. When he puts his face near the glass, I call that the stink eye. But he's not feeling those things, I'm just parsing his behavior in a human way. He's not human. He watches me not because he's feeling some kind of emotional reaction, but because he's trying to turn an unknown into a known. I don't make sense to instinctive reasoning.

I treat him with operant conditioning, just as I would any other animal (including humans). He has learned to recognize the scent of his freshly cleaned feeder cage. He has learned that my motions near his viv are generally meaningless in his world. His viv is on my desk, so he's less than 3 feet away from me for several hours every day. However, when I open the viv, I do it the same way every time. My approach to the viv looks different and sounds different than everything else I do in my office. I like to think that he recognizes me, personally, by sight, but that's not likely. He does know the difference between me and my son when we hold him.

How does Spike feel about me? This is where anthropomorphizing reptiles is problematic. I'm pretty sure that his feelings about me are usually in the is it dangerous/is it not dangerous spectrum. Since he recognizes my you're going to eat now behaviors, I do know that he associates me with certain things. When he chooses not to strike at me, it's because operant conditioning has taught him where I lie on the dangerous/not dangerous scale, not because he feels affection. When I approach or enter into his viv in a way he does not expect, he will strike if he cannot hide. This tells me that he doesn't have an emotional attachment (anthropomorphized affection), but a conditioned response.

My dog, on the other hand, once his responses to me are conditioned, and he understand his place in the pack, and my place in the pack, I don't get aggressive responses to surprises. I have to prove I'm a threat for that, and I have to prove my threat level outweighs the respect he gives my place in the pack. I don't have to prove that to my snake because there are no family/pack/pride bonds between us. Spike feels, I have no doubt, but what he feels is alien to me, just as what I feel is alien to him.

I care about Spike very much, but I think it's wrong to think that he returns that feeling.

When I made my choice to get a snake, I did so with the idea that I would be committed to the snake's care for its life. Circumstances may dictate that changes. I've had to give up cats and dogs in the past because I had to move and pets were not permitted. Because I do handle him, and he does seem to enjoy it (he wraps around my arm and palm, completely relaxes, and absorbs my heat), I have a higher order relationship than I do with an aquarium fish. But, he does not seek out my company, or even need it. That means I have a lower order relationship with him than I do with my dog. It's not because he's a lesser animal or deserves less love from me, it's simply the nature of the social mammal: we need reciprocal social bonds. Snakes cannot give that to us; dogs and cats can. Most mammals left in solitude will get sick; in the young, it's called failure to thrive. Most snakes, outside of mating, spend their entire lives in solitude and get along just fine. When I'm an old lady, living alone between bingo games and mall walking, Spike or his replacement will not be enough to keep me emotionally healthy. A dog or cat would be. As much as I care about Spike, I care about my dogs and my cat more. And I don't even like two of the dogs. I can't help it; they care about me. That caring is unmistakable, unlike reptile behavior. And that's why there's a difference between reptiles and dogs/cats, and why there always will be.

[Corey209]

Or maybe you're just expecting a reptile to show affection the same way as mammals so you don't understand my post? Its clear that snakes show emotion. No one can deny that they can feel anger, aggression, calm and fear. I also believe they can feel love.

A snake loving a human is like a prostitute loving a customer.

[Mikoh4792]

A snake loving a human is like a prostitute loving a customer.

http://images.wikia.com/ktt/images/5/5c/Antonio-banderas-gif-52bbd904-original.gif

[ErikBush97]

Snakes cannot feel love or hate... Neither can music. Anyone here love listening to music? Cars can't love you. Anyone here love muscle cars. Maybe sports cars? Why shouldn't you love something just because it can't love you back???

[Corey209]

Snakes cannot feel love or hate... Neither can music. Anyone here love listening to music? Cars can't love you. Anyone here love muscle cars. Maybe sports cars? Why shouldn't you love something just because it can't love you back???

Sure you can love a snake because it's your pet, just understand it doesn't love you back and never will. It's all about personal opinions, I don't attach myself to animals that have no complex emotions. You can't consider a reptile to be like a cat or a dog because they're nothing alike. Some reptiles on the other hand are brilliant like monitors and alligators but still, they can't love you back.

[formica]

That sword you're welding swings both ways; be careful when playing with large blades without little experience. I could throw the same argument back at you because who brought the notion of them being disposable commodities into the discussion? How is that relevant to them being considered equal to dogs or cats when anthropomorphism is not?

And also look back at my original post. I only was pointing out that these types of discussions bring out people trying to anthropomorphize, not necessarily that the subject was relevant. But whatever, whatever you believe makes no difference to me as long as your animals are cared for and handled properly. But if the shoe fits....:rolleyes:

the whole thread is about reptiles being disposable, and people not being willing to take care of an animal for its whole life, rather its simply a cool accessory to big themselves up to other people.

this is not a discussion about anthropomorphism, only you are trying to make it into that, and only you are attempting to make people feel ''guilty'' about doing it in the first place.

let me remind you of the OP.

I'm just curious, I always see people saying how they used to have or they traded a snake for another snake. I'm just curious if people will ever consider reptiles in general as a pet for the duration of there lives and not keep them for a short duration and then trade them for something new. Now before this turns into a "I plan on keeping mine forever" thread, I know some will but its safe to say that most reptile owners won't

[StudentoReptile]

There's too many ostriches in this thread, and I suddenly remembered how much I don't care for birds.

[mistersprinkles]

A snake loving a human is like a prostitute loving a customer.

If that prostitute has a minimally functioning reptile brain lacking any grey matter and emotion processing.

No one can deny that they can feel anger, aggression, calm and fear. I also believe they can feel love.

:hmm::O_o::pissedoff:

Snakes feel the following:

Feeling hungry, feeling full, feeling curious, feeling afraid, feeling defensive. That's it.
Snakes do not feel anger. They do not feel aggression. They feel defensive because they feel threatened. A snake will not track a non food item down and attack it out of aggression unless it has been frightened into a defensive posture. Snakes do not feel calm. That's because they're too stupid to feel calm. Their mind is still. Nothing is happening in there. When there is no stimuli to make them react defensively, when there is no interesting smell to make them explore, their mind is still and they just sit there. They do not feel calm.

I won't even get into your claim that they feel love because that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Snakes do not make friends. Snakes do not form like-long pair bonds. Or, I would argue, form any meaningful pair bond at all.

I love snakes but at the same time I realize that they are an idiotic tube with a minimal brain that simply lacks the hardware to feel any emotions. They are like a high-functioning robot. They react to different situations the way a well programmed robot would. Can they learn? Yes, within reason. They can learn that being in a certain container means food is coming. They can learn that a person is not a threat. But does that make them intelligent? Honda's latest version of their Asimo robot can learn. Does that make it intelligent? I think not.

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~granger/images/RepVmamN3rg.jpg

[formica]

you are confusing emotions with intelligence, they are not the same thing, certainly snakes do not have the complexity of emotions that humans describe - however, they certainly do feel fear, which is an emotion, they also have dopamine receptors, therefore they feel pleasure based on rewarding behaviours, dopamine is an integral part of learning, and there is no reason to think that dopamine is not an important part of a snakes interaction with humans, some snakes feel fear when interacting with humans, and it stands to reason, that those which do not, feel pleasure as dopamine is released.

[mistersprinkles]

you are confusing emotions with intelligence, they are not the same thing, certainly snakes do not have the complexity of emotions that humans describe - however, they certainly do feel fear, which is an emotion, they also have dopamine receptors, therefore they feel pleasure based on rewarding behaviours, dopamine is an integral part of learning, and there is no reason to think that dopamine is not an important part of a snakes interaction with humans, some snakes feel fear when interacting with humans, and it stands to reason, that those which do not, feel pleasure as dopamine is released.

I would imagine the only time dopamine is released in a snake is when it gets a meal.

[formica]

I would imagine the only time dopamine is released in a snake is when it gets a meal.

dopamine is released for a great variety of behaviours, it is positive reinforcement which allows animals to learn, from the simplest behaviours (eg escaping rain and finding shelter, or managing to catch a branch when loosing grip up a tree, catching a meal and eating, learning the diffrence between things that pose a threat, and things that do not, also involve dopamine, right upto the most potent dopamine releases, via reproduction.

[Starbuck]

formica, you are stating that a snake that does NOT feel fear MUST feel pleasure upon human interaction???

the absence of evidence is NOT the same thing as the evidence of Absence.

You have also not quanitfied how you would measure this fear/pleasure response in snakes. Dopamine, and it's receptors, have been around much longer than our human/mammalian perceptions and reactions to it. I dont think we can make a jump and state that is does the same thing in ALL animals in which it is found.

[Starbuck]

you are confusing emotions with intelligence, they are not the same thing, certainly snakes do not have the complexity of emotions that humans describe - however, they certainly do feel fear, which is an emotion, they also have dopamine receptors, therefore they feel pleasure based on rewarding behaviours, dopamine is an integral part of learning, and there is no reason to think that dopamine is not an important part of a snakes interaction with humans, some snakes feel fear when interacting with humans, and it stands to reason, that those which do not, feel pleasure as dopamine is released.


bolded statements of interest.

[knox]

Interesting read, here.

I have had over 25 snakes in my years of keeping them. All have been re-homed at one time or another. I now have 1 Black Milk Snake.

Snakes are not children. Snakes are not dogs. Snakes are not even cats.

As to the equality of animals, let me say this. When an insect splatters on my windshield at 65 mph on the interstate, the worst that happens is I smear it when I hit my wipers. If a child hits a car at 65 mph, the ramifications are intense, emotional, and far reaching. Possibly criminal, depending on the circumstances. Families' lives are changed forever.

So no, all life on this planet is not equal. When your goldfish dies, do you feel the same as when your mother or father die? No. Never. And you never will. Do you have your house sprayed for bugs? How about if someone put your family in a gas chamber and executed them just because they are a nuisance? I think I have made my point on that one.

If you feel compelled to keep your snake or fish or roach for it's entire life, I applaud you. If you collect, reduce, then collect again, I see no problem with that. If you breed and sell off all of your hatchlings - well, that's why you do it, right? All we can do is the best we can do. I see snakes as a hobby, not a way of life. I take excellent care of the animals in my keep, but they are just that - lower intelligent animals - with very basic needs and zero need for emotional stimulation. Which makes them the perfect "pet" in my opinion.

I don't want the responsibility of a dog - too much work and commitment in my busy schedule.

I am not here to throw stones at anyone. Just answering some of the issues that I have read in this thread. Do what your conscience leads you to do. But don't look down on those who feel differently - unless blatant abuse is clearly observed.

[Aaron_S]

Interesting read, here.

I have had over 25 snakes in my years of keeping them. All have been re-homed at one time or another. I now have 1 Black Milk Snake.

Snakes are not children. Snakes are not dogs. Snakes are not even cats.

As to the equality of animals, let me say this. When an insect splatters on my windshield at 65 mph on the interstate, the worst that happens is I smear it when I hit my wipers. If a child hits a car at 65 mph, the ramifications are intense, emotional, and far reaching. Possibly criminal, depending on the circumstances. Families' lives are changed forever.

So no, all life on this planet is not equal. When your goldfish dies, do you feel the same as when your mother or father die? No. Never. And you never will. Do you have your house sprayed for bugs? How about if someone put your family in a gas chamber and executed them just because they are a nuisance? I think I have made my point on that one.

If you feel compelled to keep your snake or fish or roach for it's entire life, I applaud you. If you collect, reduce, then collect again, I see no problem with that. If you breed and sell off all of your hatchlings - well, that's why you do it, right? All we can do is the best we can do. I see snakes as a hobby, not a way of life. I take excellent care of the animals in my keep, but they are just that - lower intelligent animals - with very basic needs and zero need for emotional stimulation. Which makes them the perfect "pet" in my opinion.

I don't want the responsibility of a dog - too much work and commitment in my busy schedule.

I am not here to throw stones at anyone. Just answering some of the issues that I have read in this thread. Do what your conscience leads you to do. But don't look down on those who feel differently - unless blatant abuse is clearly observed.

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[Mikoh4792]

If you breed and sell off all of your hatchlings - well, that's why you do it, right? All we can do is the best we can do. I see snakes as a hobby, not a way of life. I take excellent care of the animals in my keep, but they are just that - lower intelligent animals - with very basic needs and zero need for emotional stimulation. Which makes them the perfect "pet" in my opinion.


..Agreed..

[rhiannon79]

I am not judging anyone I hope I have not sent that vibe I put alot of time into my animals because I enjoy it. Taking care of my pets helps me to be less stressed.Humans are definitely different in many categories first they are not nearly as easy as my pets. I supply my pets what they need they reward me with there presence in my life if I want to think they feel something towards me thats my opinion and would never force my opinions on others. As for humans u give them what they need to survive and thats usually not enough people with children know what I mean. I dont believe an animal is malicious but trust me people are and thats why I'm a pet person I love the simple fact all I have to do is love my animals provide them with what they need and fill happy about the stressless love I get from it..and I'm out I think if I keep going on I will just be repeating myself but I have really enjoyed this thread

[formica]

formica, you are stating that a snake that does NOT feel fear MUST feel pleasure upon human interaction???

the absence of evidence is NOT the same thing as the evidence of Absence.

You have also not quanitfied how you would measure this fear/pleasure response in snakes. Dopamine, and it's receptors, have been around much longer than our human/mammalian perceptions and reactions to it. I dont think we can make a jump and state that is does the same thing in ALL animals in which it is found.

dopamine is all about learning, its not actually about the pleasure itself, just as adrenaline is about being altert, it not about feeling nervous or worried - my point really, was that emotions are not the complex things that people tend to consider them to be, they have a more basic function, which humans then complicate with words, images and abstract concepts


now why do i say that dopamine must be released, well, dopamine is released any time we, or any other animal, does something, which gives us a positive experience

yes absolutely I am making an assumption here, but, bare with me...

if a snake does not want to be held, it will attempt to escape, adrenaline is released and it feels fear (yes adrenaline is more complicated than that, but keeping it simple...)

however, some snakes, and I've had several myself who react in this way, actively climbed onto me when their enclosure was openend, and are quite happy to remain coiled around arms, legs, shoulders etc for extended periods to time

one explanation, is that they are seeking out warmth, and I'd agree, human bodies are very warm and perfect for allot of snakes to bask on - this warmth will cause a dopamine release, associating the human, with pleasure.


most captive snakes are constrictors, they are very sensitive to the heartbeats of the animals they kill, and I have no reason to think they arnt aware of human heart beats either - so, are they just baskin on what they consider to be a warm tree branch? no, I dont believe that to be the case - what I do feel certain of tho, is that they are responding to dopamine in their brains, pleasure, reward and learning, all associated with human contact


I do not believe that snakes can conceptualize emotions in the way that humans can, of course not, they are not capable of abstract thought - but to say they are incapable of emotion, is a misunderstanding of what emotions actually are.


can we say that snakes are ever ''happy''? here lies the problem with human concepts, happyness can mean a wide variety of things for a human. on a chemical level, Serotonin is thought to be the major component of this, but seratonin is found in very large quantities in the digestive system, not just the brain, being full of good food, having been very hungry, can lead to happyness, for eg. so can a snake be happy? they certainly have serotonin receptors, and they eat....so, although they do not complicate happyness in the way humans do (and ironically, in ways which makes them less happy!), yes, i do think snakes can be happy.

can a snake be depressed? well, if a snake is starving and nervous, i dont see why the reduction in seratonin and increase in adrenaline cannot induce the basic chemical imbalance required for ''depression'', if a snake is sick, and unable to find food or eat, then they will not get a dopamine release, no chemical rewards, this is yet another factor in ''depression'', considered a very human state of mind by many.

[knox]

Whether we will ever know the facts regarding a snake's ability to feel happiness or depression, one thing is certain - they feel nervous. Call that fear or instinct or whatever, Rattlers are clear examples that when faced with a stressful situation, snakes exhibit changes in behavior.

Does this mean the opposite is possible? That they can feel contentment? If we define contentment as the opposite of stress, I would say yes. Is this equatable with being happy? I don't know if I would go that far, but in the case of keeping them as pets; I have no problem with someone saying their snakes are "happy" if it makes the owner feel good about providing the best possible enclosure, feeding schedule, temperature gradient, etc...

What makes me feel good about this thread is that whatever side of the fence you are on, everyone here has the sincerest desire to be a responsible care taker for these wonderful animals. We appreciate the positive aspects of owning snakes. We don't kill them on sight out in the field, but rather we take joy in their safety.

So keep your heads up, guys and gals. Don't take internet arguing personally. Relax, add to the conversation, but above all; enjoy this great group of people and our common love of the magnificent snake.

Have a great Wednesday!!!!

[rhiannon79]

What makes me feel good about this thread is that whatever side of the fence you are on, everyone here has the sincerest desire to be a responsible care taker for these wonderful animals. We appreciate the positive aspects of owning snakes. We don't kill them on sight out in the field, but rather we take joy in their safety.

So keep your heads up, guys and gals. Don't take internet arguing personally. Relax, add to the conversation, but above all; enjoy this great group of people and our common love of the magnificent snake.

Have a great Wednesday!!!![/QUOTE]

So well put I agree totally I love this site, I enjoy the members so much. If ever I need help the members are awesome.