Anybody able to tell the sex of my Sav? this one has me stumped..

[VaranidLover]

I'll cut right to the chase because I had a whole thing typed out but lost it ;"(

By the shape of the tail underneath, Crash looks to be male. There is a "channel" in the middle, and what looks like two hemipene bulges at the base of the tail, however, the head shape looks female according to a thread I read here some time ago (trying to find it but:) which said that "the head of a male is bigger than the female, females neck/head is more elongated males shorter/fatter)

What do you guys think?:

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/962/nf4c.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img22/4219/tgzp.jpg

Crash is in shed in these pictures that's why he's so wrinkly, but as you can see in the 2nd picture, there is clearly a bulge at the base of the tail, and he/she has a pretty long neck/head, no?

And finally, a little off-topic but here's Crash's grow out tub. It is 42 inches long, 22 inches wide, and 20 inches tall. Crash is currently at 16-18 inches and 10 months old, was about 5-6 inches and 3 months old when he/she was put in there. Getting time to build the final enclosure which will be no problem, I plan to have it done by winters end (when the tub enclosure will definitely expire).

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/7992/g3i4.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img32/7760/ga6c.JPG


Just thought I'd share that as a lot of people wind up using big fish tanks to grow them out and all that, but this way, you can hold humidity and temps a lot better and all that great stuff. Took my about an hour or two to modify the tub to work as well, very easy.

[infernalis]

A couple things..

why the grow up cage at all? I dropped my babies directly into an 8x4x4 and raised them in that, perfectly.

Second, sexing savannah monitors seems to be a tough one, we usually have to wait until either they evert the hemipene or drop some eggs.

oh, and at peak.. they grow an inch per week with proper support.

Monitor lizards are travelers, they forage large areas in a short time, so the larger the enclosure, the better.

For all the best information, housing tips, diet and temps, please read over..

Correct Savannah Monitor Care (http://www.savannahmonitor.net)

everything you need and more, all in one site.

[VaranidLover]

A couple things..

why the grow up cage at all? I dropped my babies directly into an 8x4x4 and raised them in that, perfectly.

Second, sexing savannah monitors seems to be a tough one, we usually have to wait until either they evert the hemipene or drop some eggs.

oh, and at peak.. they grow an inch per week with proper support.

Monitor lizards are travelers, they forage large areas in a short time, so the larger the enclosure, the better.

For all the best information, housing tips, diet and temps, please read over..

Correct Savannah Monitor Care (http://www.savannahmonitor.net)

everything you need and more, all in one site.

I was worried about putting such a small lizard in such a big cage, I didn't think he'd be stressed by it or anything, I just had a hard time locating him when he was really small even in the 4x2x2 so I think it was a good way to go for my sake, looking back I'd have done things differently though. But yeah I had heard that they can grow an inch or two a week at their peak, however, the figures I offered weren't exact (I have to measure "him", good chance "he's" way past 16-18 inches honestly)

I have seen Crash poop multiple times but never seen any hemipenes, will offer a nestbox as well just in case it is female and decides to show me with some eggs.

[infernalis]

Why would you concern yourself with finding him?? are you handling??

epic example of everything wrong.

[VaranidLover]

Why would you concern yourself with finding him?? are you handling??

epic example of everything wrong.

Dude, I have a hot spot of 130-140f, cool side of 80, humidity ranging from 60-75% outside the burrow and 80-100% in the burrow, 12 inches of substrate, I feed him 90% insects, 10% rats, snails, crayfish ect, and lots of them, and he has plenty of room, and a soon to be finished adult enclosure. I don't handle him, besides once in a blue moon to do a health check and listen to his/her breathing ect (I do that with all my animals) So how am I "doing everything wrong"

Please do elaborate oh mighty one, since you obviously know everything. I didn't come looking for care advice, because I follow your own threads/advice as well as the link you posted (already had it and another years ago), and nothing major has been said besides minor disagreements/certain things I personally disagree with and do differently.

Now I remember why I left this place, thanks for reminding me.

[infernalis]

You clearly stated that I just had a hard time locating him when he was really small even in the 4x2x2 so I think it was a good way to go for my sake.

Your sake?? how about the lizards sake?

Maybe, just maybe when they hide, it's because they don't want to be found.

If you don't like my attitude, that's fine... I care about the lizards, and you are housing one in a Tupperware box.

It's like having a sports car in a locked garage, where is it supposed to run? climb? is he burrowing?

[VaranidLover]

You clearly stated that

Your sake?? how about the lizards sake?

Maybe, just maybe when they hide, it's because they don't want to be found.

If you don't like my attitude, that's fine... I care about the lizards, and you are housing one in a Tupperware box.

It's like having a sports car in a locked garage, where is it supposed to run? climb? is he burrowing?

Dude.. he is at max 23 inches, and the tub is 4x2x2ft, not to mention he was barely 6-7 inches when I first got him and put him in there, and it's now JUST about time to upgrade, as I am. Where is the problem? Besides not putting him in a final enclosure asap which in my opinion, didn't hurt anything because he has optimal conditions.

And yes, he runs around the tub (I should get a picture from birds eye view, you'd realize he's very small compared to the tub.. again it is 4x2x2), he eats like a monster, he burrows, he hides when he sees me as he should, use to climb when I had logs in there but I removed them because they were falling apart, literally, he poops, pees, drinks regularly, sheds on time every month or so, ect. He is, according to my vet: "A healthy, very happy lizard".

When I said I couldn't even locate him in a 4x2x2, I meant if I just lift the lid and look in, and can't see him anywhere, he's either in his burrow, under some slate, up on his basking platform, or whatever, but for me, not seeing him flips me out because then I think he's escaped or something. He never does escape, I just have ocd about closing enclosures properly and in turn that leads to worrying about escapes, even though it will and can never happen. Irrational, but that's OCD for you.

I didn't mean to imply that I was handling him often or something, because again, I only do health checks every once in a while and really have only "held" him/her a handful of times, and not for long either.

[infernalis]

My apologies if I come across as harsh, Every day I run into someone with poorly cared for lizards and bad attitudes, and I do sincerely apologize (again) that that has calloused me into a hardened b'stard.

I have a solid memory, I remember what you went through with Lrrr, I was right here and it was pretty close to when I lost Chomper.

Further, I am going to be really honest, My animals are housed in a box that's way too small, the more time I spend studying these animals (right down to the bio mechanics of locomotion) the more guilty I feel for holding them captive at all.

This 8x4x4 minimum is alarmingly too small... and that's just MY opinion, as I honestly think that they should have enclosures that WE have to walk into.

I'll leave you alone now.

[Toothless]

This 8x4x4 minimum is alarmingly too small... and that's just MY opinion, as I honestly think that they should have enclosures that WE have to walk into.
I couln't agree more! I feel bad housing mine in an 8 x 4 now that he's almost full grown.

[Toothless]

I'm going to guess and say male. While the head is shorter and rounder, it's very ridgy (don't know how else to explain it :)).

[murrindindi]

I'll cut right to the chase because I had a whole thing typed out but lost it ;"(

By the shape of the tail underneath, Crash looks to be male. There is a "channel" in the middle, and what looks like two hemipene bulges at the base of the tail, however, the head shape looks female according to a thread I read here some time ago (trying to find it but:) which said that "the head of a male is bigger than the female, females neck/head is more elongated males shorter/fatter)

What do you guys think?:

Crash is in shed in these pictures that's why he's so wrinkly, but as you can see in the 2nd picture, there is clearly a bulge at the base of the tail, and he/she has a pretty long neck/head, no?

And finally, a little off-topic but here's Crash's grow out tub. It is 42 inches long, 22 inches wide, and 20 inches tall. Crash is currently at 16-18 inches and 10 months old, was about 5-6 inches and 3 months old when he/she was put in there. Getting time to build the final enclosure which will be no problem, I plan to have it done by winters end (when the tub enclosure will definitely expire).

Just thought I'd share that as a lot of people wind up using big fish tanks to grow them out and all that, but this way, you can hold humidity and temps a lot better and all that great stuff. Took my about an hour or two to modify the tub to work as well, very easy.


Hi, you asked for opinions so here`s mine; I think the tub is an awful way to keep the monitor in at an age (basically it`s a closed coffin). You mention the animal is now close to 2 feet long and there`s 12 inches of substrate in there, so in effect the monitor`s head would almost be touching the top (there`s only 10 inches "air space" and it looks like nothing much else in there), how is that remotely adequate in size or structure?
What type of heating/lighting are you using?
As far as which sex it is, can you crop the tail base pic and zoom in, also a few more in profile (as in the tail from the side but not resting on anything), and also the head from above?
I truly hope this is not female because at this size more than likely sexually mature with absolutely nowhere to deposit eggs (is the substrate heated to the high 70`s to mid 80`sF and tamped down as firmly as if you`d walked on it)?
No offense, I`m seriously trying to help, you need a proper enclosure as of right now....

[VaranidLover]

Hi, you asked for opinions so here`s mine; I think the tub is an awful way to keep the monitor in at an age (basically it`s a closed coffin). You mention the animal is now close to 2 feet long and there`s 12 inches of substrate in there, so in effect the monitor`s head would almost be touching the top (there`s only 10 inches "air space" and it looks like nothing much else in there), how is that remotely adequate in size or structure?
What type of heating/lighting are you using?
As far as which sex it is, can you crop the tail base pic and zoom in, also a few more in profile (as in the tail from the side but not resting on anything), and also the head from above?
I truly hope this is not female because at this size more than likely sexually mature with absolutely nowhere to deposit eggs (is the substrate heated to the high 70`s to mid 80`sF and tamped down as firmly as if you`d walked on it)?
No offense, I`m seriously trying to help, you need a proper enclosure as of right now....

I'm working on his final enclosure as we speak, but I must say, your guesstimations are a little off. The Sav has plenty of air space (more than 10 inches because the top curves, and the mesh/holes drilled into the tub allows proper airflow anyways)

The highest point in the enclosure is the hot spot, and that is still 7-8 inches below the mesh, and when the Sav is on it, he does not touch the top at all, not even close. Again, I should get a birds eye view of him now (the pic where his tail is sticking out is when he was first put in the tub at 5-6 inches)

I use three lamps, with 65 watt flood lights in each one. The tub works better than tanks in terms of a grow out enclosure because it conforms to the soil, whereas in a tank it's completely rectangular and harder to hold/make a burrow. The tub is almost perfectly round, which eliminates that issue. Also, the tub holds heat/moisture better, while allowing you to customize it by drilling air holes to let out more heat/humidity, eventually, hitting a balance where it's not an oven in there, yet you have a hotspot of 130-140f and a cool side of 80, and every temp in between.

I don't see the problem here, I know so many knowledgeable/respectful herpers that grow their Savs out this way, or, more often in tanks/4x2x2 wooden enclosures. Once their Sav hits the 20-25 inch mark, it's time for an 8x4x4.

I'm doing nothing different, and all those people have healthy happy Savs.

I have to go to work for a few hours, but I'll be back to address everyone as I hoped to.

[Mikoh4792]

There are obviously people who know more than me about this matter in this thread, but if VaranidLover's sav is doing good in a smaller enclosure until it's final cage is setup what's the problem? Isn't 4x2x2 plenty of space for a small sav?

[murrindindi]

There are obviously people who know more than me about this matter in this thread, but if VaranidLover's sav is doing good in a smaller enclosure until it's final cage is setup what's the problem? Isn't 4x2x2 plenty of space for a small sav?


Hi, in what sense is the animal "doing good"? At this time the monitor is touching 2 feet with only (according to the OP) 7 INCHES of "air space" above the extremely wet looking bit of soil. That in your opinion is acceptable for such an intelligent and normally very active reptile like a Varanid?

[murrindindi]

I'm working on his final enclosure as we speak, but I must say, your guesstimations are a little off. The Sav has plenty of air space (more than 10 inches because the top curves, and the mesh/holes drilled into the tub allows proper airflow anyways)

The highest point in the enclosure is the hot spot, and that is still 7-8 inches below the mesh, and when the Sav is on it, he does not touch the top at all, not even close. Again, I should get a birds eye view of him now (the pic where his tail is sticking out is when he was first put in the tub at 5-6 inches)

I use three lamps, with 65 watt flood lights in each one. The tub works better than tanks in terms of a grow out enclosure because it conforms to the soil, whereas in a tank it's completely rectangular and harder to hold/make a burrow. The tub is almost perfectly round, which eliminates that issue. Also, the tub holds heat/moisture better, while allowing you to customize it by drilling air holes to let out more heat/humidity, eventually, hitting a balance where it's not an oven in there, yet you have a hotspot of 130-140f and a cool side of 80, and every temp in between.

I don't see the problem here, I know so many knowledgeable/respectful herpers that grow their Savs out this way, or, more often in tanks/4x2x2 wooden enclosures. Once their Sav hits the 20-25 inch mark, it's time for an 8x4x4.

I'm doing nothing different, and all those people have healthy happy Savs.

I have to go to work for a few hours, but I'll be back to address everyone as I hoped to.


Hi again, the biggest problem is you not seeing the problems!
If it takes 195w to heat this plastic tub to approx. 24c (75f) in the coolest parts and á surface temp between approx. 50 to 60c (120 to 140f) at the "basking site" with (you claim) just 10 inches of air space there`s something badly wrong?
What`s the oldest (healthy) monitor all these other "knowledgeable" people keep just like you (females as well as males)?
It`s great you`re in the process of building (we hope) a properly supportive enclosure, can you show a few pics of progress so far? Thanks!
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mention; it`s been recorded in the wild that the females can become sexually mature at only 27cm (10.5 INCHES) total length, that means if the same is true in captivity (no reason why it shouldn`t be) it would only take a few months for a fully supported hatchling to reach that size, and the conditions for nesting must be in place BEFORE gravidity, are you and all the others using these methods sure you`re offering proper support (you have no idea of the sex)?

[formica]

DB in his book, and various publications in Biawak magazine and elsewhere, have all described care methods which involved using different size enclosures as the monitors grew - the only point made about it, is the higher cost of using several enclosures, rather than going straight into one large one.

Now seriously, you lot may think you are doing the right thing, by constantly jumping on people over these issues, but you are not, aggressive tactics are counter productive, and frankly the attitude is getting a bit boring

how many monitor keepers have been driven away from this forum because of it? I've only been here a few months, and I've seen several already - is that what you want? just a little clique of experienced monitor keepers who can congratulate each other on how great their monitor care is, and how useless everyone else is at it? I'm sure thats not what you want, but its what will happen if you constantly look down on people and treat them like idiots.

[Mikoh4792]

Hi, in what sense is the animal "doing good"? At this time the monitor is touching 2 feet with only (according to the OP) 7 INCHES of "air space" above the extremely wet looking bit of soil. That in your opinion is acceptable for such an intelligent and normally very active reptile like a Varanid?

Alright I probably shouldn't go any further since I'm not knowledgeable on this topic, but maybe the OP should show a pic of the animal in it's enclosure to see how much room it has.

[murrindindi]

Alright I probably shouldn't go any further since I'm not knowledgeable on this topic, but maybe the OP should show a pic of the animal in it's enclosure to see how much room it has.

You are perfectly entitled to express an opinion so long as you make it clear you have very little experience and knowledge of the subject (which you have done, good for you). All the same, I do think it sometimes just adds to the confusion, and we have more than enough of that already! :)

[murrindindi]

DB in his book, and various publications in Biawak magazine and elsewhere, have all described care methods which involved using different size enclosures as the monitors grew - the only point made about it, is the higher cost of using several enclosures, rather than going straight into one large one.

Now seriously, you lot may think you are doing the right thing, by constantly jumping on people over these issues, but you are not, aggressive tactics are counter productive, and frankly the attitude is getting a bit boring

how many monitor keepers have been driven away from this forum because of it? I've only been here a few months, and I've seen several already - is that what you want? just a little clique of experienced monitor keepers who can congratulate each other on how great their monitor care is, and how useless everyone else is at it? I'm sure thats not what you want, but its what will happen if you constantly look down on people and treat them like idiots.


Hi, Daniel Bennett does not keep Varanids in captivity.
In case you haven't noticed, most often the situation (for the animal) is quite DESPERATE, some individuals need a bit of a "wakeup call" to get them to listen and act.
Nobody among the more experienced is aggressive, just CONSTRUCTIVELY critical. This is not about your feelings, it`s about the animals that are being slaughtered in captivity in their THOUSANDS each and every year. No offense..... :)

[ErikBush97]

Okay... Did a bit of math to solve this issue. You said your lizard is approximately two feet. That would mean that from his head to his shoulders/ just above his arms is 3.5" long. Comparing that to the image of him next to the (pictured below), and comparing that to the birds eye view photo, I'd say that the Lizard is roughly the same length of the stone slab... Please correct me if my math is too far off. But here's about how long I'd say your monitor is. Hopefully this will settle this and there will be no need for further argument.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2829/10428102616_1253354164.jpg

[VaranidLover]

Okay... Did a bit of math to solve this issue. You said your lizard is approximately two feet. That would mean that from his head to his shoulders/ just above his arms is 3.5" long. Comparing that to the image of him next to the (pictured below), and comparing that to the birds eye view photo, I'd say that the Lizard is roughly the same length of the stone slab... Please correct me if my math is too far off. But here's about how long I'd say your monitor is. Hopefully this will settle this and there will be no need for further argument.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2829/10428102616_1253354164.jpg

That is incorrect, he's a bit smaller I'd say. And not to mention the Sav just recently hit about 20''. That means from 5-6 inches he had PLENTY of room, and only NOW is getting to be to big for the tub, and I a building a final enclosure. What more do you guys want from me?

So since everyone is so high and mighty I'll be sure to post a birds eye view pic when I can, and after that I am done. You all think you have all the answers, blah blah blah, so I'll leave after that. If this is what you people feel proud about when you say "I am a reptile enthusiast" then good, because you are all fools besides the one person who defended me above^^ At least they have common sense and realize that there is a multitude of ways that things can be done, and nobody is perfect, even you Wayne.

Peace

[murrindindi]

The tub is NOT 4 x 2 x 2 feet, this is the actual size according to the second post the OP made:


:
And finally, a little off-topic but here's Crash's grow out tub. It is 42 inches long, 22 inches wide, and 20 inches tall.

If it`s only 20 inches tall and there`s 12 inches of substrate that leaves 8 inches of "air space" above ground (plus there are objects on top of the soil).
The OP states the monitor is actually 23 inches total length at this time.


To "GotsaQuestion"; this is not an argument, it`s an attempt by people with experience and knowledge to pass some of that on in the hope it will help others with less at this moment in time to better care for their animals.
"We" put a good amount of time and effort into this, to be called "aggressive" , and "patronising" and "treating people like idiots" by individuals like "Formica" is quite an insult! It is most often other keepers with more experience that stop visiting these websites because of the futility of trying to get the most basic of info across.
Personally, I`m a glutton for punishment (masochist) so I`ll continue, at least for the time being.... :D

[Mikoh4792]

VaranidLover, I think Gotsaquestion was correct. You say he was 20". The cage is 24 inches deep.

Gotsaquestion's measurements seem to be approximately 20".

[murrindindi]

VaranidLover, I think Gotsaquestion was correct. You say he was 20". The cage is 24 inches deep.

Gotsaquestion's measurements seem to be approximately 20".


Hi again, see my post above and the OP`s quoted post re the measurement of tub and monitor at this time...

[VaranidLover]

Hi again, see my post above and the OP`s quoted post re the measurement of tub and monitor at this time...

I shortened the measurements to 4x2x2. It is only a few inches off anyways, the point is, the Sav has PLENTY of room, and had much much more as he was growing to 20-23''.

So, again, you should have NO argument, advice, or anything to offer, because everything is, and has, already been fine for the longest time, and will continue to be fine. I am very knowledgeable on Savs, and follow even Waynes advice down to a T.

So if I am doing anything wrong, blame Wayne. Besides for the choice of a grow out enclosure, that is all on me, and was a PERFECTLY FINE THING TO DO. As many, many others do.

Now go "punish" someone else that really deserves it you clowns.

[Mikoh4792]

Hi again, see my post above and the OP`s quoted post re the measurement of tub and monitor at this time...

So why are the measurements changing all the time? lol. I'm confused.

[VaranidLover]

So why are the measurements changing all the time? lol. I'm confused.

They aren't. I estimated the Sav at 20-23'' or so, the cage is basically a 4x2x2 (proper measurements were given before, I'm not going to type out every time: 42 inches by 23 blah blah blah or whatever it is)

Hope that cleared it up.

[Mikoh4792]

They aren't. I estimated the Sav at 20-23'' or so, the cage is basically a 4x2x2 (proper measurements were given before, I'm not going to type out every time: 42 inches by 23 blah blah blah or whatever it is)

Hope that cleared it up.

No offense but that's just being lazy. When it comes to floor space half a foot makes a difference. Especially considering that other measurements are also off(height and depth).

[VaranidLover]

No offense but that's just being lazy. When it comes to floor space half a foot makes a difference. Especially considering that other measurements are also off(height and depth).

Well, I had already given the exact measurements and figured if i said 4x2x2 people would just click and realize what was going on, but apparently not, or you guys are just looking for stuff to complain about now. I don't know

[Mikoh4792]

Well, I had already given the exact measurements and figured if i said 4x2x2 people would just click and realize what was going on, but apparently not, or you guys are just looking for stuff to complain about now. I don't know

I'd say you're giving us things to complain about, although I wouldn't say what I did was complaining. I'm not trying to make an enemy of you, in fact if you go to the first page you'll see I was actually trying to defend you. But you do make it a little easy for others to complain.

[VaranidLover]

I'd say you're giving us things to complain about, although I wouldn't say what I did was complaining. I'm not trying to make an enemy of you, in fact if you go to the first page you'll see I was actually trying to defend you. But you do make it a little easy for others to complain.

Whatever, I'll be back in a few years when my Sav is happy and healthy, then we can all have a good laugh about the uproar against grow out enclosures.

[ErikBush97]

Like it or not, grow out enclosures are going to = wasted cash in the future. As long as you have the next enclosure size up ready to go by time the lizard needs it, I personally wouldn't look at grow out enclosures badly, so just make sure he's always in the correct sized enclosure or bigger. If you do that, I don't think anyone here would have an issue with it. I personally don't know a single thing about Monitors, but I do know that there are a lot of smart people giving you good info and advice. You can get defensive, or keep an opened mind and do as instructed by these people to better the way you care for the Sav. I'm not necessarily saying that you're caring for them badly, because I know nothing about Sav's. But no matter how great you take care of your animals, you can ALWAYS do it better. so just keep an opened mind, and remember that no one who's posted here has you in mind. Everyone here is thinking about your pet, and they just want to make sure that it has a happy, healthy live.

[infernalis]

Whatever, I'll be back in a few years when my Sav is happy and healthy, then we can all have a good laugh about the uproar against grow out enclosures.

why the attitude??

The ability to accept criticism especially with a prior death on your resume' is a sign of maturity. Why put up a brick wall? no one is "shouting at you" yet you have some sort of tantrum like response to every word typed?

Imagine IF I presented my new lizards in a tote box, after the widely public passing of Chomper, These people would laugh me off the boards a fool.

No one has done that to you, we have done nothing but express the urgency to get this future cage project rolling.... that's all, nothing else.

Yet you insist on making proverbial mountains out of molehills.

[VaranidLover]

Like it or not, grow out enclosures are going to = wasted cash in the future. As long as you have the next enclosure size up ready to go by time the lizard needs it, I personally wouldn't look at grow out enclosures badly, so just make sure he's always in the correct sized enclosure or bigger. If you do that, I don't think anyone here would have an issue with it. I personally don't know a single thing about Monitors, but I do know that there are a lot of smart people giving you good info and advice. You can get defensive, or keep an opened mind and do as instructed by these people to better the way you care for the Sav. I'm not necessarily saying that you're caring for them badly, because I know nothing about Sav's. But no matter how great you take care of your animals, you can ALWAYS do it better. so just keep an opened mind, and remember that no one who's posted here has you in mind. Everyone here is thinking about your pet, and they just want to make sure that it has a happy, healthy live.

As I've stated countless times, I have an adult enclosure on the way. It will be done in a matter of a month or two so it's not that far off. Therefore, there is no problem here, as my Sav has just recently hit the 20-23'' mark (again, still need to measure him quickly some time as I would like to know for certain). I put him in there when he was only 5-6 inches, so he had PLENTY of room all the way up until the 20'' mark, and he still has a good amount of room since he isn't really wide, he can turn around easily, run around if he wants, has an epic burrow (the entire bottom is hollowed out), ect. And again, that adult enclosure is on the way. There should be zero issues here.

And I have been busy as hell, so if I don't have the time to write out exact measurements after they've already been stated a billion times, it's not because I'm trying to be difficult, it's because I'm trying to avoid writing two sentences only to have to leave the computer, lose it, and type it all over again.

It seems like everyone here is very high on their horse, and that really needs to change. And Gotsa, I realize you weren't giving me a hard time. No hard feelings, I was just getting frustrated because I love these animals and I go above and beyond for them. The fact that I decided to use a grow out tub doesn't change that, in fact it's better because it has taught me how to properly establish the temperatures, the soil consistency, ect. If I had rushed a final enclosure I'd be in a world of trouble right now, so I have no regrets. My Sav grew up from 5-6 inches, to 20-23 inches, it's not like he was always that size inches and has been in there, no, that is fairly recent. He had tons of room growing up, and now that he's almost 2ft, he will have plenty more come late Nov/Dec.

[VaranidLover]

why the attitude??

The ability to accept criticism especially with a prior death on your resume' is a sign of maturity. Why put up a brick wall? no one is "shouting at you" yet you have some sort of tantrum like response to every word typed?

Imagine IF I presented my new lizards in a tote box, after the widely public passing of Chomper, These people would laugh me off the boards a fool.

No one has done that to you, we have done nothing but express the urgency to get this future cage project rolling.... that's all, nothing else.

Yet you insist on making proverbial mountains out of molehills.

I explained in my previous post, but I will again, separate of that wall of text ^^:

I have a deep passion for these animals, and I was just frustrated because of peoples attitude. I was fine until people started making it seem like I was doing things wrong, and like I don't care about these animals. All that nonsense. As I said, I follow the well known Sav care websites to a T, Wayne, and the only deviation was the grow out enclosure idea. I don't know why the idea of a tub makes it worse, in the end, nothing we provide is up to par with the wild, so that idea needs to go out the window, unless you are being reasonable. The people here aren't, you expect me to have a 10x5x5 for a baby or something and then bigger for an adult? it's not practical.

The best MOST people can do for their Sav is a 6x4x4 with just 3-4 inches of dirt, a little layer, temps of 90-100 hot spot and 70-80 cool side, for an adult. Me on the other hand, I have given my Sav a 4x2x2 (I forget the exact bloody measurements) tub, with 12 inches of dirt (at the highest point), a proper temperature gradient with a hot spot of 130-140f up top, 100-110 just below the flat stone where he has dug it out (no worries, it is supported), and 80 cool side, 80-85 ambient, 60-80% humidity above ground, 80-100% in the burrow, And the final enclosure (8x4x4) is on the way. certain to be done late Nov/Dec, maybe earlier If I'm lucky, and pushing for.

So yes, I had a Sav die in my care, but he was already 3-4 years old when I got him and was fed boiled eggs and ground turkey, in a fish tank at 4ft, with a 80-90 hot spot and no humidity because of the mesh top (all according to the previous owner)

So excuse me for not making that person take care of their animal long before I ever met them. By the time he came into my care, there was no rehabilitation in sight. The damage was done. So in the end, you can pull up things like that to make yourself seem justified in your point, but at the end of the day you just demonstrate your lack of understanding.

And there is no "attitude" there. Constructive criticism, remember?

[erichillkeast]

The best MOST people can do for their Sav is a 6x4x4 with just 3-4 inches of dirt, a little layer, temps of 90-100 hot spot and 70-80 cool side, for an adult.

And herein lies the flaw in your logic. I know very little about Savs, but I do know that if someone is keeping one in an enclosure as described, they are doing it wrong, and just because you are doing better than someone else does not make it right.

[VaranidLover]

And herein lies the flaw in your logic. I know very little about Savs, but I do know that if someone is keeping one in an enclosure as described, they are doing it wrong, and just because you are doing better than someone else does not make it right.

I cannot say enough that an adult enclosure will be done in a month or so, that the Sav has had plenty of room all it's life, from 5-6 inches up to 20 inches, where now he needs an upgrade, AND IT'S COMING

You are just unreasonable, and can't accept that grow out enclosures ARE FINE. My friends all do it, their finds all do it, the best room around which I had worked at does it, and all of them have happy healthy monitors, that are put from their grow out enclosure to their final enclosure when they are big enough.

You people are really, really ridiculous. I'm done explaining myself, you can all see that my Sav will be healthy and happy in a few years when I come back and taunt you with my success. If you are going to harp on someone, when the time comes that you've been proven wrong, you should accept it and close your mouth. I'm sick of people acting like they know everything (and people will say that's me, um, no, it's YOU, if it was me, I wouldn't be rushing an adult enclosure)

Smarten yup and realize that you can be wrong. Until then, I give up, can't go in circles forever with clowns.

[Mikoh4792]

You won't prove anyone wrong, I guarantee it.

No one said that your sav wasn't going to survive. People here are just saying that your grow out tub is less than ideal. Whether that assertion is true or not, your sav will probably live long enough to go into it's adult enclosure you are building for him. Looks like you're the one high on your horse.

[ErikBush97]

You people are really, really ridiculous.

In a few years when I come back and taunt you with my success.

WE are ridiculous?? But you're going to come back and stick your tongue out at us?
Sounds like you're the one being ridiculous here. There isn't even a reason for you to be mad.
Just fix your mistakes, get a bigger enclosure and move on. No reason for any of what I've seen here. I x2 what Mikoh had pointed out. I tried to help give a solution and recommend not taking every word as an insult but you still do. It's not going to solve anything, tbh. Take your shield down for a little while and absorb some of this info and advice. These people are trying to help your ANIMAL, not pick on YOU. I promise. I can tell you really love your animals. But you can always give them better care, as I stated before. Even if you think a Sav would do fine in a 6' enclosure doesn't mean it's a good choice. A human can live in a barrel. Doesn't mean we'll live comfortably. More space = happier animal.

[Mikoh4792]

A human can live in a barrel.

For some reason the thought of this made me laugh.

[Toothless]

I couln't agree more! I feel bad housing mine in an 8 x 4 now that he's almost full grown.
I hope you didn't take this the wrong way. I think the standard 8 x 4 is adequate room but that people should provide as much space as they can (I'm in no rush to upgrade my enclosure, but will when I get the opportunity just because I think he would enjoy more space). I have no problem with anyone who keeps one in an 8 x 4 and certainly have no problem with how yours is being kept. Life happens, and sometimes things get a bit delayed but what matters is that you are upgrading the enclosure as soon as possible and that what he is in now is ok short-term.
If I got another monitor I would build the adult enclosure from the get-go and toss in the baby, but I found using grow-up enclosures beneficial when first getting started as I knew what to do differently for the next one.
No one here was being rude. I find sometimes things can be said very bluntly that appear rude, but once questioned turn out to be only simple statements. 'Your enclosure could be better' usually means on here that someone would like to recommend a change because they have found it works good- not to put you down or make you feel bad.
Everyone here is passionate about monitors, and in my mind the more the marrier :).

Any more photos of the guy? I'm curious on whether its a he or she.

[Toothless]

For some reason the thought of this made me laugh.
Me too :). I thought of a crazy guy with a long beard jumping out of a barrel saying, 'Would you like a spot of tea?'.

[Mikoh4792]

Me too :). I thought of a crazy guy with a long beard jumping out of a barrel saying, 'Would you like a spot of tea?'.

ha! I thought of a guy sitting in the fetal position living in a barrel his whole life.

[VaranidLover]

WE are ridiculous?? But you're going to come back and stick your tongue out at us?
Sounds like you're the one being ridiculous here. There isn't even a reason for you to be mad.
Just fix your mistakes, get a bigger enclosure and move on. No reason for any of what I've seen here. I x2 what Mikoh had pointed out. I tried to help give a solution and recommend not taking every word as an insult but you still do. It's not going to solve anything, tbh. Take your shield down for a little while and absorb some of this info and advice. These people are trying to help your ANIMAL, not pick on YOU. I promise. I can tell you really love your animals. But you can always give them better care, as I stated before. Even if you think a Sav would do fine in a 6' enclosure doesn't mean it's a good choice. A human can live in a barrel. Doesn't mean we'll live comfortably. More space = happier animal.

I never said a 6' cage is okay. I said that's what the majority of people use, even for adults, yet I have already provided over 3 quarters of that already to a baby/juvenile, not to mention the 8x4x4 that's coming along.

Again, I apologize if I seemed defensive before. I am going to take some time to think and relax then I'll be back.

[ErikBush97]

I never said a 6' cage is okay. I said that's what the majority of people use, even for adults, yet I have already provided over 3 quarters of that already to a baby/juvenile, not to mention the 8x4x4 that's coming along.

Again, I apologize if I seemed defensive before. I am going to take some time to think and relax then I'll be back.

Good idea. I had a really bad attitude towards everyone here (much worse than yours), but.I.took a little time, came back, and now I get along with some of those members I had argued with regularly before.

[nepoez]

Don't worry, when I first came here I had some people demanding to see photos of my cage and temp. I told them the size and humidity and basking temp and the chick(i think it was a girl) said unless I showed photos, I'm basically making it up lol. yeah I was pissed off too. But I got over it, I'm here for info and I got lots of that and that's what counts. :)

[ErikBush97]

The people here gladly put an animals health before someone's feelings. May sound harsh, but I'm sure any animal lover like VaranidLover can understand why people are like that.

[varanus_mad]

Funny really I used to post regularly on varanid care.

And threads like these made me remember why I don't...

[V87]

^ agreed 100% ....

Makes u wonder really ....

[infernalis]

Funny really I used to post regularly on varanid care.

And threads like these made me remember why I don't...

Shane, you see the mess I'm up against on facebook mate. It's worse than the forums ever will be.

[varanus_mad]

Shane, you see the mess I'm up against on facebook mate. It's worse than the forums ever will be.


True and i post even less on there...

Whole groups dedicated to patting each other on the back and showing of sickly and obese animals...

I got kicked out of a varanid group when i first started using them around a 2 years ago.

over a heated discussion on green tree monitor care... Turns out arguing with a mod is a no no.

[nepoez]

If the goal is to educate people to save the animals, then as you present the facts or the education to the target audience you need to be focused on the goal. If your attitude, emotion(anger), pride, or ego gets in the way of the goal, you have failed. Not many people can take the truth in such a harsh way and if you insist on being rude in the way you deliver the message, they might shut their ears off and you fail to achieve your goal.

Honestly I think a lot of experts lose focus of this goal. They'll keep that as their goal if the target audience is easy and very open minded. However as soon as any resistance is met, their goal to help educate owners to provide better care becomes secondary, while their primary goal seems to have become the need to show people how stupid they are for not listening to you and acknowledging that you are an expert while they are not.

[V87]

If the goal is to educate people to save the animals, then as you present the facts or the education to the target audience you need to be focused on the goal. If your attitude, emotion(anger), pride, or ego gets in the way of the goal, you have failed. Not many people can take the truth in such a harsh way and if you insist on being rude in the way you deliver the message, they might shut their ears off and you fail to achieve your goal.

Honestly I think a lot of experts lose focus of this goal. They'll keep that as their goal if the target audience is easy and very open minded. However as soon as any resistance is met, their goal to help educate owners to provide better care becomes secondary, while their primary goal seems to have become the need to show people how stupid they are for not listening to you and acknowledging that you are an expert while they are not.

Who is an expert ? I don't knw any experts ....


I think what Shane is trying to get across is that after 5 or so years it gets hard to keep coming back ... I think in this world u have people who will listen and those that just don't want to what ever tact u use wether it's nice or tough love ...

No body just gives up but u can pick and choose ur battles rather than wasting ur breath and effort ...

[infernalis]

There are no experts, except the monitors themselves.. They are the masters of making do with deplorable conditions and hiding their pain.

Everyone else is still learning.

If we chose to group people, there are those with common sense and those without.

Unfortunately, those without common sense are also most likely to not use birth controls and spread their "ignorant genes" around.

[mdfmonitor]

there's a few out there that have bred them for many years!! they've just had enough of the wave of keepers that don't want to learn. :) :)

Just above the 2 buckets>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/DSC00798.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Argus%20Monitor%20April%207th%202013/DSC00798.jpg.html)
same window & 6 months later same window>
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/MDFMONITOR/Untitled00232-24.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/MDFMONITOR/media/Untitled00232-24.jpg.html)
i couldn't keep them in a small box like that. :(