Question for those that breed

[Mikoh4792]

Do you work with related pairs? If so how closely related are they? What is your most extreme example? Have you experienced any negative results from inbreeding?

[Aaron_S]

Do you work with related pairs? If so how closely related are they? What is your most extreme example? Have you experienced any negative results from inbreeding?

I have mixes. I don't notice really anything but I do take precautions and try to out cross stuff. Even with morphs. I'll ask someone where they got there's and I'll do a trade or buy it and sell mine.

Try to keep it going as inbreeding does have consequences that may just not be seen right away.

[Mikoh4792]

I have mixes. I don't notice really anything but I do take precautions and try to out cross stuff. Even with morphs. I'll ask someone where they got there's and I'll do a trade or buy it and sell mine.

Try to keep it going as inbreeding does have consequences that may just not be seen right away.

Would you say it depends on the extent of inbreeding?

For example sibling to parent(closely related) is worse than a pairing of animals that share the same great grandparent or cousin...etc(distantly related)?

And I plan to just keep a permanent set of pairs for breeding(they would be my permament pets, and I would just sell the offspring). So as long as I stop there, would you say it's okay if they are related to each other in some way?

[Aaron_S]

Would you say it depends on the extent of inbreeding?

For example sibling to parent(closely related) is worse than a pairing of animals that share the same great grandparent or cousin...etc(distantly related)?

And I plan to just keep a permanent set of pairs for breeding(they would be my permament pets, and I would just sell the offspring). So as long as I stop there, would you say it's okay if they are related to each other in some way?

From my uneducated knowledge I'd say yes. Having two parents closely related would be an issue over grandparents and the like. In general it means at one point another bloodline was used.

For your situation, I wouldn't have any cause for concern. It happens a lot to get animals going. Morphs had to be bred to siblings to prove them out and initially it isn't a big deal.

May I ask what species and do you know if it's parents were siblings or how far back the inbreeding goes?

[Mikoh4792]

From my uneducated knowledge I'd say yes. Having two parents closely related would be an issue over grandparents and the like. In general it means at one point another bloodline was used.

For your situation, I wouldn't have any cause for concern. It happens a lot to get animals going. Morphs had to be bred to siblings to prove them out and initially it isn't a big deal.

May I ask what species and do you know if it's parents were siblings or how far back the inbreeding goes?

Mainly morelia. Jungle carpets in particular.

Right now one of my males has a lot of schuette and european influence
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a594/mikoh4792/WillLearyxNickMuttonZebraclutch2013_zpsac74eb65.jp g

and there is this one female I am looking at that is about 50% schuette/50% GVS breeder stock. Can't know for sure who exactly her schuette parent is but that's all I have about her.

[Aaron_S]

Yeah I wouldn't worry about that pair.

[shaunyboy]

Carpet Pythons are often line bred up to F5 without issues,imo you will have no problems with Morelia

F1 = first clutch

F2 = breeding F1 brother and sister to produce F2's

F3 = breeding F2 brother and sister to produce F3's

F4 = breeding F3 brother and sister to produce F4's

F5 = breeding F4 brother and sister to produce F5's






i am working with a pair of F2 line bred pure Irian Jaya's (brother and sister).....

i plan to create F3's then keep a few holdbacks,who will go on to produce F4's,again i will keep a few holdbacks, that will go on to create F5's

these Irians are being line bred for their high yellows and reduced pattern

re Carpet line breeding
Carpets are regularely line bred to F3,F4,F5, with no issues



some other snake species can have issues when line bred too far,i'm sure i read of some boa line breeding where the hatchlings are born with eye defects...

^^^^^
some of our boa keepers may be able to give better info,or correct me if i got it wrong

cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

When you talk about f1, f2, are they all sibling to sibling or some that are sibling to parent, grandparent..etc?

[shaunyboy]

When you talk about f1, f2, are they all sibling to sibling or some that are sibling to parent, grandparent..etc?


F1 =sibling to sibling,then take sibling to sibling from their clutch which would be F2, then take sibling to sibling from the F2 clutch to create F3 and so on and so on

it would be the same if you bred a sibling back to the parent,then took a sibling out the next clutch and bred it back to the parent,then a sibling out that clutch back to the parent,etc,etc

imo its more common to breed brother and sister from each generation,as each generation bred together,should theoretically improve/strengthen the trait your line breeding for,so each generation should get better and better looking

cheers shaun

[Sublimeballs]

Line breeding or inbreeding of reptiles is less of an issue as it is with mammals. Snakes are non migratory, and would have no way of knowing if they are breeding with a clutch mate in the wild. So as a survival mechanism there less issues with inbreeding. However inbreeding does intensify good and bad genetic traits. Seeing as you're only planning on doing one gen of line breeding there shouldn't be any issues, but I'd advise you do the responsible thing and let anyone know that wants to purchase a pair from you that the parents were related so they can decide for themselves if they'd like to acquire one from someone else to vary up the gene pool a bit.

[Mikoh4792]

Seeing as you're only planning on doing one gen of line breeding there shouldn't be any issues, but I'd advise you do the responsible thing and let anyone know that wants to purchase a pair from you that the parents were related so they can decide for themselves if they'd like to acquire one from someone else to vary up the gene pool a bit.

I don't understand, if I advertise my clutch, and someone wanted to buy a pair wouldn't they already know the pair is related since they were born from the same clutch?

When I advertise my snakes I would show lineage information and pics of the parents, and then pictures of the available snakes.

[Sublimeballs]

I don't understand, if I advertise my clutch, and someone wanted to buy a pair wouldn't they already know the pair is related since they were born from the same clutch?
.

Perhaps I missed something, im under the impression that the pair you have now that you plan on breeding are related. Is this not the case?

[shaunyboy]

I don't understand, if I advertise my clutch, and someone wanted to buy a pair wouldn't they already know the pair is related since they were born from the same clutch?

When I advertise my snakes I would show lineage information and pics of the parents, and then pictures of the available snakes.

Perhaps I missed something, im under the impression that the pair you have now that you plan on breeding are related. Is this not the case?


if the snakes you plan to breed were brother and sister.....

then what you would be producing would be F2's

if the snakes your breeding are not brother and sister,or parent and hatchling,then it would be F1 you would produce mate

imo it's no big deal in the Carpet world,but some other species can produce deformitys when line bred too far

cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

Perhaps I missed something, im under the impression that the pair you have now that you plan on breeding are related. Is this not the case?

yes but I don't understand your point. If someone wanted to vary up the gene pool, what good would it do to tell them that the parents of my clutch were related, since taking the babies and breeding them to another jungle would be outcrossing? Wouldn't that be varying up the gene pool?

[Mikoh4792]

if the snakes you plan to breed were brother and sister.....

then what you would be producing would be F2's

if the snakes your breeding are not brother and sister,or parent and hatchling,then it would be F1 you would produce mate

imo it's no big deal in the Carpet world,but some other species can produce deformitys when line bred too far

cheers shaun

ah got it. Thanks a lot

[Sublimeballs]

yes but I don't understand your point. If someone wanted to vary up the gene pool, what good would it do to tell them that the parents of my clutch were related, since taking the babies and breeding them to another jungle would be outcrossing? Wouldn't that be varying up the gene pool?

What I was getting at is that some people are opposed to inbreeding their snakes, so if someone wanted to purchase a pair with intentions of breeding. You should, as a responsible breeder, let them know that the babies are from related parents so they can then decide for themselves if they want to purchase both from you or one from you and one from another breeder; to vary up their projects gene pool.

[Mikoh4792]

What I was getting at is that some people are opposed to inbreeding their snakes, so if someone wanted to purchase a pair with intentions of breeding. You should, as a responsible breeder, let them know that the babies are from related parents so they can then decide for themselves if they want to purchase both from you or one from you and one from another breeder; to vary up their projects gene pool.

Ah I see. I understand now that you elaborated on that point.

But even then wouldn't it be hypocritical for that particular buyer to not want inbred babies, yet take a pair for the purpose of breeding? Related parents or not, wouldn't it be inbreeding for them to take related babies and breed them together?

But of course, I'd give info like that before hand(When I give lineage information on parents, they would be able to see for themselves whether or not the parents were related).

[Derek Roddy]

In actuality, there are VERY few individual Carpet Python Lines in the US. Most jungles that come from lines that are know as "classic lines"... are a mixture of all the same stuff.
Chances are that any "Jungle" you buy is related in some way shape and form. It's nothing to worry about.
I've bred down to F7 with my Atherton Carpets and have seen no ill effects what so ever.

No need to worry about genetic depression in most pythons.

And think about it....even in the wild, How far would a clutch of carpets get away from it's founders? Or them from their founders?
The area in which "jungle carpets" actually habituate...is very small. How much genetic "diversity" is there in the wild anyway.... when you're talking about an animal that crawls? Haha.

D