Prices of reptiles dropping

[Mikoh4792]

Will the normal/wild phases of reptiles drop as drastically as the morphs over the years? For example do you see normal snakes that are generally $150 become $75 in the next few years?

[slowhite03]

Depends on the snake, if people still are paying asking price then I don't see a dramatic price change occuring

[infernalis]

It's all about supply and demand, AND who you know.

You can get a normal BP or Corn snake for $10 - 20 if you look.

Often, the animal itself is the cheapest part of the whole thing, Proper caging, feeders, heat & other care necessities add up.

[smy_749]

In my opinion, there are two major factors.

The supply and demand one that was mentioned. If everyone wants them, supply has to keep up or prices jump, and the opposite is the same as everyone knows.

But one of the MAJOR reasons that prices drop, is when idiots start producing the animals they see as money makers and want to sell them before the big names do so they mark them down to "move them fast". Then the next guy does it even lower, etc. etc.

This is what you see with columbians, bp's, corns, whatever.

A good example of what happens when idiots don't mark down the prices, would be the prices of yellow and red ackies. They've been hovering in the same price range for some time now, because supply and demand is steady and there isn't SO many people producing them that supply sky rockets (my guess is due to space/nesting/feed requirements that aren't nearly as time consuming with snakes)

[franks]

Mikoh,

You should peruse kingsnake classifieds everyday if you are looking to get a handle on the market. In my opinion it is the best indicator of the snake market as you can watch morph and snake prices rise and fall if you pay attention. As you watch adds from reputable breeders and hobbyists alike go up and get taken down, you can see what sells. You will also be able to spot the snakes and the adds that just will not sell. I think this will help you acquire what you are looking for since you have asked questions in the past about the market etc. For instance, I can tell you that in the last two years the price of Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons have gone up a little, while the price of high yellow Jungle Carpet Pythons as a whole average have gone down some.

[formica]

The blame cant be put soley on those who undercut other breeders - if breeders didnt charge insane prices...$10,000+ for a snake? really? is it any wonder that there has been an explosion in new breeders when prices like this are charged? Its irresponsible behaviour from both the breeders of rare morphs and all the new breeders who see it as a way to make $$$. Breeders at both ends of the scale should be more interested in who they are selling to, than what price they can get for it. good old free market capitalism in action, who cares what damage is caused in the process

[smy_749]

The blame cant be put soley on those who undercut other breeders - if breeders didnt charge insane prices...$10,000+ for a snake? really? is it any wonder that there has been an explosion in new breeders when prices like this are charged? Its irresponsible behaviour from both the breeders of rare morphs and all the new breeders who see it as a way to make $$$. Breeders at both ends of the scale should be more interested in who they are selling to, than what price they can get for it. good old free market capitalism in action, who cares what damage is caused in the process

Hes asking about normal animals. Morph market prices are a whole different story. I havea hard time coming up with a list of normal animals that go for 10k plus each.

[Terranaut]

There is a market suturation level for any product. Once reached the prices fall. There are just way to many people breeding at a small business level now a days. If you want to sell your item you must have a lower price or higher quality and the same price. If you look for a car and autotrader shows 100 of the same in your colour would you want to buy the most expensive one? Well a few species of snake are reaching this point and prices are falling. Unless your the first or second person to breed a new morph the price will fall from purchase to first clutch.

[formica]

Hes asking about normal animals. Morph market prices are a whole different story. I havea hard time coming up with a list of normal animals that go for 10k plus each.

new breeders dont start with expensive animals, thats why there is a massive influx of cheap 'normals' - i know that those prices are not standard, but they do come up, and imo even lower prices are excessive, and is what drives all these people to try and take up breeding as a way to make $$, instead of doing it because they love the animals

[SSSSnakes]

I breed because I enjoy it. I sell cheap because I want people who I feel are going to take care of them to have them. I'm not trying to compete or under cut anyone. Also I don't need to hold onto and feed all the babies to get more money for them.

[Mikoh4792]

I just hope the same thing that happened to ball pythons doesn't happen to all the other species. People start caring about morphs and money instead of the actual animal. Maybe I'm a little late but I can already see this happening to bci, although it's not as bad, for now. It's sad to see people collect a bunch of expensive morphs and keep them in small tubs for breeding purposes to make money, instead of just buying a normal and keeping it in an enclosure that allows for observation of natural behavior and actually learning about the snake.

[formica]

I just hope the same thing that happened to ball pythons doesn't happen to all the other species. People start caring about morphs and money instead of the actual animal. Maybe I'm a little late but I can already see this happening to bci, although it's not as bad, for now. It's sad to see people collect a bunch of expensive morphs and keep them in small tubs for breeding purposes to make money, instead of just buying a normal and keeping it in an enclosure that allows for observation of natural behavior and actually learning about the snake.

agreed, any animal in captivity should be offered as much enrichment as possible, anything less is ethically questionable imo, no animal should be confined in that way just so that humans can make money. makes me sad to see it

[shaunyboy]

market saturtation and going through an economic depression = falling prices

imo only the very high quality snakes hold their prices

cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

imo only the very high quality snakes hold their prices


I guess that's the problem then. It's what people define as quality. Looks and money come before health and passion.

[shaunyboy]

I guess that's the problem then. It's what people define as quality. Looks and money come before health and passion.


re very high quality Carpets
imo it is looks that defines a very high quality Carpet,i'm talking the very very best Carpets such as the Gamma line,etc

imo there are very few very high quality Carpets produced,so they hold their prices,as they are very sought after, by people who want to produce ONLY the very highest quality hatchlings...

in the carpet world i have found these people do it for the passion and glory/pride of saying...look at this amazing looking Carpet ive produced,they do it out of their passion to create a great looking snake,not the money as they usually keep most of the best lookers for their own collections


re cheap Carpets
its more a case of there are hundreds if not thousands of average and below average looking Carpets here in the uk,due to their ease of breeding and clutch sizes

no one wants to pay silly money for average or below average Carpets, also theres plenty to choose from,that many that some folk even give them away

with HIGH QUALITY CARPETS i see NO reason to say quality and money,is put before the health of the snake or passion for breeding

and imo PASSION is the reason most high quality Carpet breeders strive/seek to produce only the best

i can only comment on Carpet Python breeders and keepers...

i have no idea of things like the ball/royal python markets,etc..

as its only Carpets i keep mate

cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

imo there are very few very high quality Carpets produced,so they hold their prices,as they are very sought after, by people who want to produce ONLY the very highest quality hatchlings...

So all the other mediocre looking or normal looking carpets are not quality? Even if they are healthy animals that are able to reproduce? And would you say that the carpets in the wild, who look nothing like their captive counterparts are not quality animals? Again, it's how people define quality.

in the carpet world i have found these people do it for the passion and glory/pride of saying...look at this amazing looking Carpet ive produced,they do it out of their passion to create a great looking snake,not the money as they usually keep most of the best lookers for their own collections

And what do they do with them? They breed them to make money.

This is what I'm talking about. I hope this mentality doesn't plague other species. Can you imagine people collecting "Designer" monitors and stuffing them in boxes for breeding purposes instead of appreciating it's natural beauty? Why get 10 and put them in small enclosures when you can get 1 and give it a big enclosures? Trust me it's to breed and make money. Pride and glory for breeding good looking snakes? How about pride and glory for not being so vain? That would be a much more admirable cause.


no one wants to pay silly money for average or below average Carpets, also theres plenty to choose from,that many that some folk even give them away

You forgot to put "imo" infront of this statement. There are many members here who don't have "designer" carpets and are just fine with their acquisitions

[Terranaut]

Well I do not understand the nature of the comments above. Do you disagree with Shaun? And the last statement.... he never said average carpets are not great to have but would you pay $500 for a jag sib. If so please let me know. I will help you out :) People enjoy normal ball pythons but you wouldn't pay "silly money" for one would you? I doubt anyone on here would pay more than $50. Doesn't mean it won't be a great , healthy snake but it's monetary value is very little due to the sheer number and ease of availability. Shaun never questioned personal value of ownership of natural looking carpets, just the dollar value.

[Mikoh4792]

Well I do not understand the nature of the comments above. Do you disagree with Shaun? And the last statement.... he never said average carpets are not great to have but would you pay $500 for a jag sib. If so please let me know. I will help you out :) People enjoy normal ball pythons but you wouldn't pay "silly money" for one would you? I doubt anyone on here would pay more than $50. Doesn't mean it won't be a great , healthy snake but it's monetary value is very little due to the sheer number and ease of availability. Shaun never questioned personal value of ownership of natural looking carpets, just the dollar value.

By saying "you forgot to put imo infront of that statement" I wasn't referring to spending silly money on carpets, rather it was about what makes an average to below average carpet.

[Starbuck]

So all the other mediocre looking or normal looking carpets are not quality? Even if they are healthy animals that are able to reproduce? And would you say that the carpets in the wild, who look nothing like their captive counterparts are not quality animals? Again, it's how people define quality.

There are many members here who don't have "designer" carpets and are just fine with their acquisitions

I am viewing this from a dog/cat perspective... I have a pound dog. She is a mix of who knows what, and cost me maybe 50$ in adoption fees. She is incredibly smart, and i have spent over 500$ in puppy classes, preventative care, toys, etc etc. The point here is it doesnt matter how much the animal cost, it is all about what the person buying it is willing to put into it (in terms of finances, love, care, responsibility, etc).

ON THE OTHER HAND: golden retrievers are one of the most popular breeds in the US. There are well bred, show quality lines, and there are backyard breeders looking to move some puppies for some extra cash (and a wide spectrum in between those extremes). One of those 'poorly bred' retrievers can make a GREAT family pet, if the owners are willing to put the time and care towards it... but it will still have a higher incidence of hip displaysia, behavioral issues, and will not conform perfectly to the Retriever AKC standard. This DOES NOT make it a bad pet... But when you are spending 1000$ for a show-quality dog from good lines, you are buying that promise of a good pedigree, free f congenital defects, hip displaysia, etc etc.

Replace every 'retriever' with 'Carpet pythons', replace 'show quality' with 'Gamma line/equivalent'.... etc.
The point i'm trying to make is that for these 'well bred' carpets, you are getting what you pay for. I LOVE my 20$ normal corns and kings, and i would put the same care into them as i would a 2K snake, but i know if i am spending that much in the first place i am getting a proven- quality animal...

hopefully that made sense :confused:

[Mikoh4792]

I am viewing this from a dog/cat perspective... I have a pound dog. She is a mix of who knows what, and cost me maybe 50$ in adoption fees. She is incredibly smart, and i have spent over 500$ in puppy classes, preventative care, toys, etc etc. The point here is it doesnt matter how much the animal cost, it is all about what the person buying it is willing to put into it (in terms of finances, love, care, responsibility, etc).

ON THE OTHER HAND: golden retrievers are one of the most popular breeds in the US. There are well bred, show quality lines, and there are backyard breeders looking to move some puppies for some extra cash (and a wide spectrum in between those extremes). One of those 'poorly bred' retrievers can make a GREAT family pet, if the owners are willing to put the time and care towards it... but it will still have a higher incidence of hip displaysia, behavioral issues, and will not conform perfectly to the Retriever AKC standard. This DOES NOT make it a bad pet... But when you are spending 1000$ for a show-quality dog from good lines, you are buying that promise of a good pedigree, free f congenital defects, hip displaysia, etc etc.

Replace every 'retriever' with 'Carpet pythons', replace 'show quality' with 'Gamma line/equivalent'.... etc.
The point i'm trying to make is that for these 'well bred' carpets, you are getting what you pay for. I LOVE my 20$ normal corns and kings, and i would put the same care into them as i would a 2K snake, but i know if i am spending that much in the first place i am getting a proven- quality animal...

hopefully that made sense :confused:

That did, however I am not talking about well bred snakes vs not well bred snakes. I'm talking about what defines quality. Some people define it as looks, and others have different definitions.

[formica]

as we know from the vast number of problems in pure bred Dogs and Cats, and more recent problems coming up in ''show quality'' reptiles, what is considered good breeding stock, may not actually be what the species needs to stay healthy and have a good quality of life. The purity of a line, is often completely counter to what is important for the quality of a genetic line, in terms of health, congenital conditions, suspectability to diseases. In terms of evolution, genetic purity, small genetic gene pools, are the best way to encourage extinction.

[Starbuck]

Ah, I see what you're saying. I guess that is pretty hard to quantify in snakes, who don't really have congenital issues like a lot of our mammalian pets, and we rarely hear about old age issues etc. I guess in that case i think it is important to breed for the betterment of the species or the hobby as a whole. You shouldnt juat throw 2 corna together because you have them... but i think it's impossible to get away fron line breeding and morphs in thia hobby, because that is such an integral part of the machinery... the reason people will pay over 5k for a snake is because it is something rare, that maybe hasnt been seen before, and represents a lot of potential (for future projects etc). I think the traits i just listed are a big component of 'quality' animals like carpets, such as the gamma line. If it wasnt heritable i dont think people would pay as much for them.l

[Mikoh4792]

but i think it's impossible to get away fron line breeding and morphs in thia hobby, because that is such an integral part of the machinery... the reason people will pay over 5k for a snake is because it is something rare, that maybe hasnt been seen before, and represents a lot of potential (for future projects etc). I think the traits i just listed are a big component of 'quality' animals like carpets, such as the gamma line. If it wasnt heritable i dont think people would pay as much for them.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[shaunyboy]

So all the other mediocre looking or normal looking carpets are not quality? Even if they are healthy animals that are able to reproduce? And would you say that the carpets in the wild, who look nothing like their captive counterparts are not quality animals? Again, it's how people define quality.

^^^^^^^^
yes its how people define quality,and i explained how Carpet keepers are with defining quality...

i am NOT responsible for how the market is,regarding what sells and what cannot be given away

yes mediocre Carpets are NOT high quality,and they should NOT be bred,as there is NO MARKET for them so WHY produce them in the first place ?

as they end up being sold cheap or given away to anyone that will take them...NOT MY IDEA OF A GOOD HOME

re quality
mediocre and below average looking Carpets are NOT quality....

for example...a cheap very basic no frills family car that still runs and drives ok,still does not make it a quality car...where as a Rolls Royce,Ferrari,etc always will be quality in the eyes of buyers, no ?

well its pretty much the same on the snake market,most folk strive to buy the best quality example they can afford,no ?




And what do they do with them? They breed them to make money.

^^^^^^^^
what is wrong with that ?

there is a good market for high quality examples...!!





This is what I'm talking about. I hope this mentality doesn't plague other species. Can you imagine people collecting "Designer" monitors and stuffing them in boxes for breeding purposes instead of appreciating it's natural beauty? Why get 10 and put them in small enclosures when you can get 1 and give it a big enclosures? Trust me it's to breed and make money. Pride and glory for breeding good looking snakes? How about pride and glory for not being so vain? That would be a much more admirable cause.

^^^^^^^^
re pride and glory
i should have used the word passionate to breed new and beautiful snakes,i agree i chose the wrong words



who said anything about Carpets being kept in boxes ?

all my adult carpets are in 4x2x2ft vivariums,hatclings are kept in 2x2x2ft vivariums,below are some of my tanks and will show how i keep my Morelia,so you know NOTHING of my mentality mate


http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/P1000338.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/spilota01/media/P1000338.jpg.html)

below is the type of tank i use for hatchlings

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/diamond%20tank/diamond%20tank/diamondtank001.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/spilota01/media/diamond%20tank/diamond%20tank/diamondtank001.jpg.html)

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/diamond%20tank/diamond%20tank/diamondtank005.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/spilota01/media/diamond%20tank/diamond%20tank/diamondtank005.jpg.html)

^^^^^^^^
note,not a tub in sight

re Carpets
Carpets are semi arboreal,MOST Carpet keepers i know,DO NOT USE TUBS









You forgot to put "imo" infront of this statement. There are many members here who don't have "designer" carpets and are just fine with their acquisitions

^^^^^^^^
yes but those people are few and far between,for the MOST part an ugly or below average example will NOT sell,so the owner gives it away or sells it very cheap,just to get rid of it,again NOT my idea of a good home...!!


the op askwed WHY prices were dropping,i used my experience of the Carpet world to try and explain it.....

i have kept Carpets for MANY years before they became popular....

i watched the prices rise at the beggining when there were'nt that many Carpets available...

then after the masses got into them,i watched them being over produced by people,throwing any combination of Carpet together,just so they could say.....

LOOK I BRED A CARPET...

the market got flooded with undesirable looking Carpets that could NOT be given away.....

i am not responsible for how the masses think,i merely pointed out how it is here in the UK

cheers shaun

P.S.Please excuse the way iv'e posted,being a bit of a technophobe,i did not know how seperate the post i quoted,from some of my replys,some of my answers are in the quote and some are outside the post quoted...feel free to fix it if possible Wayne

[Mikoh4792]

There was no need to show us your cages. I was talking about monitors. Also I am not accusing you of stuffing snakes into boxes so no need to defend yourself.

[Mikoh4792]

market saturtation and going through an economic depression = falling prices

imo only the very high quality snakes hold their prices

cheers shaun

It's my fault but after this comment we went off on a tangent about quality snakes. Let's stay on topic about normals. Unless you consider a morph animal to be "higher" quality than normals. That's a different story.

[shaunyboy]

Well I do not understand the nature of the comments above. Do you disagree with Shaun? And the last statement.... he never said average carpets are not great to have but would you pay $500 for a jag sib. If so please let me know. I will help you out :) People enjoy normal ball pythons but you wouldn't pay "silly money" for one would you? I doubt anyone on here would pay more than $50. Doesn't mean it won't be a great , healthy snake but it's monetary value is very little due to the sheer number and ease of availability. Shaun never questioned personal value of ownership of natural looking carpets, just the dollar value.

^^^^^
thanks mate,you put it across just as i intended it to be,words ain't my strong point

i keep PURE and Morphs,but i would only breed if there was a market for my hatchlings...

why produce something no one or at least very very few people will want

i was Only explaining the market

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

market saturtation and going through an economic depression = falling prices

imo only the very high quality snakes hold their prices

cheers shaun



It's my fault but after this comment we went off on a tangent about quality snakes. Let's stay on topic about normals. Unless you consider a morph animal to be "higher" quality than normals. That's a different story.

my bad,thats me just noticed the op was talking about normal phase snakes.....

i stand by what i said though.....

a high quality example of a pure snake will always have a market,where a below average looking example will have a less desirable effect

i will explain it with pictures...

a very very sought after Jungle (not my snake,picture from another forum)
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/new%20pictures/202283_406997006025675_1759571345_o.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/spilota01/media/new%20pictures/202283_406997006025675_1759571345_o.jpg.html)

a not so desirable Jungle (less sought after,one of my old Jungles)
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/tarzanflamingo178.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/spilota01/media/tarzanflamingo178.jpg.html)


^^^^^
above is an example of a high quality and an average quality Jungle,there will ALWAYS be a market for the FIRST snake pictured,while the 2nd snake pictured would be hard to sell and go for a fraction of the price

cheers shaun

[Derek Roddy]

market saturtation and going through an economic depression = falling prices

imo only the very high quality snakes hold their prices

cheers shaun

This is the truest statement in the thread.

And "high quality" doesn't mean morph or "high price".

I'll give you an example. I recently had a buddy of mine complaining that he couldn't sell his jungle babies from this last year. The adults are average...at best. He was asking 150 shipped per pair.
Meanwhile, I produced a clutch that I sold out of in less than 3 weeks for 600 a pair.
My adults are "much higher quality" (and when I say that...meaning they are the best of the best available...high black and very neon yellow)

So, it stands to reason that people want "prettier" snakes than they do...."average snakes". I know I do.
And, when I go to buy any new animal I have my eye on....I buy the best that I can find available because I know that if they aren't....I won't be able to move the offspring when the time comes.

Of course, That also includes whether I'll actually breed the animals because I don't put stuff together unless I know there is going to be a market for it.
That said, there is always a higher market for "higher quality" animals than there are for average animals.

Not saying that average animals don't sell because different strokes for different folks but, overall.....that is the standard in the market.

D

[Mikoh4792]

Sure no one is arguing against that. What I was arguing was people looking at normal snakes less valuably and ruining the hobby with morphs because of looks.

If we are talking about looks inside of a morph( a normal vs normal, pastel vs pastel) then it's an obvious that people will buy a better looking snake.

There was a bit of a misunderstanding and I admitted it was my fault for staying on a subject that was off topic.

[shaunyboy]

This is the truest statement in the thread.

And "high quality" doesn't mean morph or "high price".

I'll give you an example. I recently had a buddy of mine complaining that he couldn't sell his jungle babies from this last year. The adults are average...at best. He was asking 150 shipped per pair.
Meanwhile, I produced a clutch that I sold out of in less than 3 weeks for 600 a pair.
My adults are "much higher quality" (and when I say that...meaning they are the best of the best available...high black and very neon yellow)

So, it stands to reason that people want "prettier" snakes than they do...."average snakes". I know I do.
And, when I go to buy any new animal I have my eye on....I buy the best that I can find available because I know that if they aren't....I won't be able to move the offspring when the time comes.

Of course, That also includes whether I'll actually breed the animals because I don't put stuff together unless I know there is going to be a market for it.
That said, there is always a higher market for "higher quality" animals than there are for average animals.

Not saying that average animals don't sell because different strokes for different folks but, overall.....that is the standard in the market.

D


^^^^^
well put mate,thats what i was trying to say

cheers shaun

[Aaron_S]

Sure no one is arguing against that. What I was arguing was people looking at normal snakes less valuably and ruining the hobby with morphs because of looks.

If we are talking about looks inside of a morph( a normal vs normal, pastel vs pastel) then it's an obvious that people will buy a better looking snake.

There was a bit of a misunderstanding and I admitted it was my fault for staying on a subject that was off topic.

You need to get off the internet dude.

The hobby of snakes is so vast that the stuff you see on forums and the internet is just a small part of it. So many people own these animals who don't really use forums or social media to talk about their animals. Guess what? They have normals usually.

The wild type of animals ebbs and flows just like anything else. Let's take pictus geckos for a example. 10 years ago there were no morphs but still a popular gecko that breeds like crazy. I bought a trio for $45 bucks back then. Now? I need to pay $50 for each one. Prices go up and go down based on production or importation of the animal. Normal animals are no different.

I think the problem you're having is that you dislike that animals are a market just like anything else. Supply and demand rule it and the fact it's a life isn't taken into account of it's value. Normal or morph it doesn't matter.

[Mikoh4792]

You need to get off the internet dude.

The hobby of snakes is so vast that the stuff you see on forums and the internet is just a small part of it. So many people own these animals who don't really use forums or social media to talk about their animals. Guess what? They have normals usually.

Are you talking about people who own normals, or breed normals? And are you implying that the market outside of the internet and social media has a different attitude about this?

[Starbuck]

I think yes, mikoh. I know LOTS of people who have a snake (or two or three) and yet know next to nothing about them. They do not go on forums or read extensively about new husbandry tecniques etx. Theynhave a snake because they like them, but the communitt as a whole doesn't interest them that much. These are the people who might think 'oh hey I could get a girl and have babies! Wouldnt that be cool!' And in some cases they don't even know about thengenetics or the true 'exemplary' animals of their particular species jn the first place...

[Aaron_S]

Are you talking about people who own normals, or breed normals? And are you implying that the market outside of the internet and social media has a different attitude about this?

Who own them.

I am not implying. I'm fairly confident in it. I've been to too many shows and pet stores and hearing the random people chat away about things. They don't know a lick about forums or morphs or breeding really.

[shaunyboy]

the picture i used in this thread showing a high quality Jungle.....

belongs to Chris Behof of the USA,the snake in the pic is called J Blaze

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/new%20pictures/202283_406997006025675_1759571345_o.jpg

Chris has some awsome Carpets

cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

I saw that snake over at MP. one of the cleanest bands I've seen.

[shaunyboy]

I saw that snake over at MP. one of the cleanest bands I've seen.

thats where i first saw it mate

i could'nt remember who owned him when i first posted the picture in this thread,MP seems to have been hacked,as my computer has barred the site due to software attacks...

so i pm'd Derek and he kindly told me it was Chris Behof

one of the best Jungles ive ever seen..

imo nothing beats a pure Diamond or high quality pure Jungle for looks

cheers shaun

[Aaron_S]

I saw that snake over at MP. one of the cleanest bands I've seen.

The funny thing about you talking about "normal" jungle carpets and in particular, the one pictured, is that it's been line bred for those bands and yellows.

It's very unlikely it can be pulled from the wild with such vibrant colours and pattern.

My point is, how can you talk of "wild types" being popular when you aren't even talking about actual "wild types"?

Line breeding is just using the polygenetic traits just like I and others use mutations to get a particular colour or pattern.

[Mikoh4792]

The funny thing about you talking about "normal" jungle carpets and in particular, the one pictured, is that it's been line bred for those bands and yellows.

It's very unlikely it can be pulled from the wild with such vibrant colours and pattern.

My point is, how can you talk of "wild types" being popular when you aren't even talking about actual "wild types"?

Line breeding is just using the polygenetic traits just like I and others use mutations to get a particular colour or pattern.

What are you on about? I fail to see the connection of the point I was trying to make between normals and morphs and your argument.

Am I not allowed to compliment a nice looking snake?

[Mikoh4792]

For the record there are high yellow and black animals from the wild. There are plenty of pictures of wild jungles that are just as vibrant. For example those from mission beach which can be seen in the book " The complete Carpet python". I can give you a page number if you'd like.

[Aaron_S]

What are you on about? I fail to see the connection of the point I was trying to make between normals and morphs and your argument.

Am I not allowed to compliment a nice looking snake?

So I can't bring up another point without you being defensive? I'm trying to have a healthy debate is all. You're more than welcome to compliment a nice looking snake. I didn't say anything about that.

I said unlikely found in the wild but apparently I was off slightly in that statement but that one in particular wasn't pulled from the wild was it? It was bred for those colours I'm sure.

Among other species, no? Do people not breed green trees for blues,yellows or whatever? Nobody is satisfied with normals no matter what. It must be tinkered with.

I'm just saying that normals will always drop because no one cares for "normals" most of the time. They want something more flashy, even if it's in "normal" colours.

The good news is that as I said so many people are not online in this hobby that they all find homes, even the less attractive.

[Mikoh4792]

So I can't bring up another point without you being defensive? I'm trying to have a healthy debate is all. You're more than welcome to compliment a nice looking snake. I didn't say anything about that.

I wasn't being defensive, I was questioning your point. Trying to have a healthy debate as well. However you did imply that there was something ironic about complimenting high yellow jungle carpet pythons. Just curious as to how that would be.

[smy_749]

How can jungles like the one above be considered normals? Its def not how they look in the wild...

[shaunyboy]

How can jungles like the one above be considered normals? Its def not how they look in the wild...


it's classed as a pure Jungle,that has been line bred for it's colours and pattern mate

so imo it's considered pure,but imo it's definitely not a normal or common looking Jungle.....

Jungles as clean crisp and bright as J.Blaze Chris Behofs Jungle, are a lot harder to find,both in captivity and the wild

there is a German Bloodline in Europe that produces similar great looking Jungles,but the majority of Jungles i see up for sale are dull and drab,average to below average looking specimens

cheers shaun

[Hammerheadc]

I notice a lot of price dropping also. But there's all a lot of over pricing. I can get the same snake that basically boas is selling for 1000,00 from somewhere else for 650 to 700. Some people just use there name

[Aaron_S]

I wasn't being defensive, I was questioning your point. Trying to have a healthy debate as well. However you did imply that there was something ironic about complimenting high yellow jungle carpet pythons. Just curious as to how that would be.


It is ironic because you have a thread about normals and people wanting them and the prices of them but the animal pictured isn't normal! It's fine to compliment them but it's just funny that it's here in a thread about "normals".

As others have stated now, it's been line bred and yes it makes it pure jungle but doesn't mean it's much of a "wild type".

You said you don't want to see what happened to ball pythons happen to other species. My point is that it already has! People line breed animals like jungles for black or yellows or cleaner bands because they don't want "normals". Already happened.

For the record, it wasn't morphs that dropped normal ball pythons. It's the fact they reproduce like crazy in Africa and can be shipped for dirt cheap and about $10 bucks a head. Nothing to do with morphs dropping the prices. In fact, morphs propped up normal prices for a long time. Female normals were 400 at one point!

[Mikoh4792]

You said you don't want to see what happened to ball pythons happen to other species. My point is that it already has! People line breed animals like jungles for black or yellows or cleaner bands because they don't want "normals". Already happened.

For the record, it wasn't morphs that dropped normal ball pythons. It's the fact they reproduce like crazy in Africa and can be shipped for dirt cheap and about $10 bucks a head. Nothing to do with morphs dropping the prices. In fact, morphs propped up normal prices for a long time. Female normals were 400 at one point!

Didn't know that. Thanks for clearing that up.

[smy_749]

What Aaron said about the jungles is the point I was trying to make...not whether they are pure or not, just that they are a bad choice for this particular topic.

[Sublimeballs]

As stated by others, yes as morphs become more and more available their prices drop. As do the normal/wild type animals. People are greedy, it's in our nature. But I feel there are exceptions to the rules. I don't see pure kalatoa super dwarf retics dropping dramatically in price due to the insane amount of crossing with mainlands to make money off morphs. I talked to Bob Clark recently and he doesn't even produce pure kalatoas anymore, they are slowly being crossed out of existence. Which is why I'm getting my pair ASAP. Not to make money, but to make sure these animals don't disappear from the hobby altogether. The mind set for preserving what will be lost isn't there(for most) because of the mindset of making big bucks. I just hope that people realize this before its too late.