Cheap build for the impaired

[smy_749]

Threw an enclosure together in 2 days, I have 0 handy man skills and managed to get it done. Looks a bit stupid in my apartment but I'm going to paint it or something eventually. Anyways, I made a 4x2x2 solid as can be, holds humidity great enclosure for $192 exactly. (dont think I forgot anything)

Trough 87$ with tax
Light Fixture 12$
57$ for a very thick piece of 4x2 plexi-glass (expensive but doesn't bow)
Piano Hinge 10$ ?
2 Prong plug for fixture 8$?
Plastic cutter - 4$ waste of money
Dirt and Sand - 14$

I just need a piece of slate , the bulbs and already had the stat.

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1383067_171590849699013_1760591035_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1376397_171590846365680_438063936_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1374768_171590836365681_736732026_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/547794_171590839699014_84592941_n.jpg

[MrCaveman]

looks pretty nice. What's going in it?

[Billman]

Where did you get that light fixture? Looks like something I need

[smy_749]

home depot. I didn't like the selection they had, and I had to wire it to a 2 prong male end for my thermostat so the ground wire isn't connected to anything...I just capped it :P

Don't really need the stat, and it won't be controlling anything except when the lights turn off haha 100 dollar timer :P

[B_Aller]

ughh, I hate this style of caging. I think it negatively affects behavior to hover over the animals and come in from above like a predator for any maintenance.
This is in my opinion a "pit" style cage, do you think living in a pit affects the behavior of animals?
I'm sorry to always be such a downer, I know you care greatly for your animals.
Ben

[Mikoh4792]

Not trying to argue, just curious but wouldn't coming in from the side be just as bad? Predators can also come from the side and underneath. Isn't it okay as long as the individual animal associates over time that your presence is not a threat?

All my cages are front sliding doors but this is something I've been thinking about. Maybe it could be said that aside from maintenance that style of caging is better as it blocks out side traffic.

[infernalis]

ughh, I hate this style of caging. I think it negatively affects behavior to hover over the animals and come in from above like a predator for any maintenance.
This is in my opinion a "pit" style cage, do you think living in a pit affects the behavior of animals?
I'm sorry to always be such a downer, I know you care greatly for your animals.
Ben

I have to agree, the same exact materials list and setup would be better if you oriented the trough onto it's side making the open part face the front.

Would not be hard to do, AND would give more floor space to walk.

Even then I would hesitate to put anything larger than an ackie in it.

Anther apprehention that I would have, thin steel is a great conductor of heat, the cage will radiate the warmth into the room where the cage is sitting, and most folks keep their homes much cooler than a monitor would need for good health, so the energy used to heat this cage would be largely "bled off" into the room.

To put it into perspective, that trough is about the same guage of stamped steel as the body of this common everyday appliance..

http://www.varanuspark.com/enclosures/heater.jpg

[desipooh.12]

I think it's pretty nice & creative!
I wouldn't of thought of that!

[smy_749]

Ben I have no issues with you being a debby downer hahahaha. Unfortunately this is what I was capable of making. I have 0 handy man skills and had someone help me with the top and wiring of lights. Its a learning curve. My animals are coming tuesday and I knew I could have this ready in time to test light wattages so i went this route. Would have liked a 12 inch trough with a box on top ideally. I will be building a box for this trough now that this bought me time. It will affect behavior but I didnt want to make the mistake I made with my rudicollis and have a opaque rubbermaid 'temporary' setup stressing my animals like all hell. I learned a few things with this one, so th next one will be a bit more advanced and less time wasted on easy steps. Maybe eventually I'll have something zoo quality down the road hahahaa

[smy_749]

And wayne , my apartment is second floor, carpeted and recently resealed by thr light and power company. I always keep it 70+ and no issues spending a few extra $$ on electricity. There is a herpstat, so in theory if I do it right, if it does get cold it could bump enclosure heat and whatever dissipates can help heat my home. Recycling hahaha


The inhabitants are chris murray stock 1.1 V. storri. I know people have mixed thoughts but these were raised together since birth and neither have any scars or signs of serious aggression towards eachother so I grabbed them.

[smy_749]

Mikoh, the issue is that with predators coming from eye level and below, they have a vantage point that gives them an advantage and ability to react early. They can flee with ease so it makes them more comfortable. Predators from above like birds of prey, swoop in and its a done deal. Its a much higher level of vulnerability and difficult to constantly be looking at the sky.

[Billman]

home depot. I didn't like the selection they had, and I had to wire it to a 2 prong male end for my thermostat so the ground wire isn't connected to anything...I just capped it :P

Don't really need the stat, and it won't be controlling anything except when the lights turn off haha 100 dollar timer :P

Haha, Thanks

[formica]

Mikoh, the issue is that with predators coming from eye level and below, they have a vantage point that gives them an advantage and ability to react early. They can flee with ease so it makes them more comfortable. Predators from above like birds of prey, swoop in and its a done deal. Its a much higher level of vulnerability and difficult to constantly be looking at the sky.

birds of prey are just one group of predetors, there are also snakes, small cats, other lizards, monitors and crocs, aswell as larger rodents, these make up a significantly larger proporation of predetors which may find a meal in an exposed monitor - and importantly, none of these animals attack from above, they are all pretty much at eye level with their prey except when actually pouncing



I like the design idea myself, I like the industrial look, as long as your monitors have places to hide, they will feel secure, as all other reptiles do, I do not believe that monitors are any diffrent in this respect, and the predators attacking from above argument doesnt stack up imo - have there been any controlled behavioral studies into this?

[smy_749]

birds of prey are just one group of predetors, there are also snakes, small cats, other lizards, monitors and crocs, aswell as larger rodents, these make up a significantly larger proporation of predetors which may find a meal in an exposed monitor - and importantly, none of these animals attack from above, they are all pretty much at eye level with their prey except when actually pouncing



I like the design idea myself, I like the industrial look, as long as your monitors have places to hide, they will feel secure, as all other reptiles do, I do not believe that monitors are any diffrent in this respect, and the predators attacking from above argument doesnt stack up imo - have there been any controlled behavioral studies into this?

I agree that terrestrial predators are the majority, but coming from above at speeds is a new ball game. They can spot terrestrial predators much easier. Most animals are most afraid when predators are above their level. And thank you

[Starbuck]

Terrestrial confrontations offer escape in any direction on that plane. An arial predator can adjust to anynescape attempt, so it is more dangerous. Additionally, mostnof the monitors defense features are oriented horizontally: teeth, tail, claws...

[infernalis]

Eagles have a rather clever attack scheme, pick up the prey, fly insanely high and let go.

Nothing can defend itself from being dropped onto the rocks below from the sky.

[formica]

monitors, along with a vast array of other animals, have evolved alongside arial predetors for millions of years, they have just as much defense as they do for other predators - predators take advantage of not being seen, surprise is the most effective way to kill prey, this applies to those on the ground, and those in the sky...the ones in the sky are far more visible, to prey that has evolved good enough eye sight to see them, from what I have read, monitors have a very well developed long-sight, unless a bird where to hover exactly above the monitor, in its blind spot, which is a very narrow range (look at a monitors eye position, it is not a predetory position, it is a prey position, designed to give it maximum range of sight), unless it hovers within that small space, the monitor will always see it coming, and if it feels threatened, it will simply go underground



I can understand why these assumptions are being made, it almost seems logical, but it is purely conjecture, and there are a great many reason why the assumption is not actually factual or logical - of course my reasoning is just as much conjecture as the original statement! it is an interesting topic, and perhaps would be a good area for someone to study if they have the resources and animals available to do so

given the evidence of monitors ability to adapt to a wide range of enviroments far outside their natural range, I dont think it is unreasonable for a monitor to adapt to an enclosure which opens from the top - not all birds are predetors after all, and I do not think there is any evidence to suggest that monitors hide for every bird they see in the sky, many animals are able to recognize the diffrence between a bird which poses a threat, and one which does not, just as they can learn to recognize the diffrence between any other predetor, and a human which poses no threat


Eagles have a rather clever attack scheme, pick up the prey, fly insanely high and let go.

Nothing can defend itself from being dropped onto the rocks below from the sky.


first it has to catch it, this is the most important hurdle for a predator to overcome, i'm not saying it doesnt happen, i'm saying that it is not factual to claim that monitors have a singular fear of being attacked from above, and to then infer that this means a top opening enclosure is detrimental to its quality of life

[franks]

The issue with "above vs from the side" has very little to do with the history of the lizards predator types. It is an issue of approaching the lizard where is can see you, or from a vulnerable side. Who approaches a strange dog from behind and starts petting it? You make sure the dog can see you, and you extend your hand so there are no surprises- it is common sense.
With this being said... I believe that as long as you at the very least occasionally feed them from above, then you will curtail this problem- as they will learn to keep an eye up for you expecting food.

SMY- I am not sure what type of bulb that is, but you may be better off with one of home depot's fairly new halogens. You can buy a 53 watt bulb that is the equivalent of a 75 watt bulb for around $6.

[Mikoh4792]

Once you open the lid the animal should know something is approaching. Or even a cast shadow from above should aware the animal.

[smy_749]

Im not using that bulb at all franks, I just put it in there to see what it does inside the enclosure temperature wise and to make sure everything was running ok. I purchased 2 x 38 watt floods yesterday, which is low wattage but I wanted to test with low wattage and move up if I have to since they are cheaper.

I have 2 basking spots running at the moment, one is at 120 and one is at 140. I just wanna leave them for 10-12 hours to see if they get out of control, or if the ambients in the enclosure are too high/low or whatever.

[B_Aller]

Thanks Sam,
Glad you're not offended as that was not my intention. I am way biased against these type of cages because I used them for about 10 years. My opinions are based on my personal observations, when my animals were hovered over the behavior was MUCH different then when the animals were allowed to see out of the enclosure and see approaching commotion, plus then they got to know when food was coming and would be much easier to deal with, maintenance wise. I also don't like the troughs because they are a fairly large waste of space. All of the space above the cage is now useless for anything else, once you have the footprint, why not use the whole space as apposed to just 2 ft? Another reason I don't recommend troughs is the lack of drainage, I just don't feel they allow enough moisture to pass through.
For those who feel that cage design does not effect behavior I would challenge them to keep a semi-arboreal or arboreal species in both a trough and an enclosure that allows the animal to be ABOVE the keepers head height. In my experience the behavioral differences are stark.
I would also caution taking advice from those who have not experimented with different types of caging.
Sam, I know you will do well with your storii and make the needed adjustments, and you are right, this is a preferable set up to a rubbermaid....just keep looking forward and you will find what works for both you and your animals.
Best.

[smy_749]

I have to agree, the same exact materials list and setup would be better if you oriented the trough onto it's side making the open part face the front.

Would not be hard to do, AND would give more floor space to walk.

Even then I would hesitate to put anything larger than an ackie in it.

Anther apprehention that I would have, thin steel is a great conductor of heat, the cage will radiate the warmth into the room where the cage is sitting, and most folks keep their homes much cooler than a monitor would need for good health, so the energy used to heat this cage would be largely "bled off" into the room.

To put it into perspective, that trough is about the same guage of stamped steel as the body of this common everyday appliance..

http://www.varanuspark.com/enclosures/heater.jpg


Hi wayne. Just curious as to how you would mount the substrate damn with the trough on its side? Seems like an interesting design.

[infernalis]

Monitors can be attacked in some really strange ways. ;)

http://www.varanid.us/shocking/phant.jpg

[Mikoh4792]

lol!......

[formica]

For those who feel that cage design does not effect behavior I would challenge them to keep a semi-arboreal or arboreal species in both a trough and an enclosure that allows the animal to be ABOVE the keepers head height. In my experience the behavioral differences are stark.
I would also caution taking advice from those who have not experimented with different types of caging.

I was under the impression that V. storri are not arboreal, or even semi-arboreal?

for an arboreal species, I would agree, that an enclosure should be tall enough to offer security and enrichment to its occupants, as its needs dictate, keeping an arboreal species in an enclosure designed for ground dwelling species would certainly be detrimental.

i've designed and built many different types of enclosure over the last 20 years, i'm not entirely unqualified to offer my opinions on the subject - in that time, I have found it is better to be flexible in your approach to enclosure design and animal care, the needs of an particular creature varies from animal to animal, aswell as species to species

Monitors can be attacked in some really strange ways. ;)

http://www.varanid.us/shocking/phant.jpg

aww :( and they say only Humans are capable of violence for amusement - or maybe the feisty monitor thought he'd bite the elephants ankles or something! hope he survived the encounter a little wiser

[Lickeypie]

How did you cut the plexi glass, or did it come rounded, and where did you find the plexi glass and trough?

[smy_749]

Home depot doesn't cut glass for you anymore, or plexi glass. This stuff is VERY thick, which is why It cost so much but it hasn't bowed in the least with the lamps so thats good. I tried breaking it down the middle after making a line with a plastic cutter and it strayed off the cut line half way through so I was forced to round the edges in order to salvage the piece. I tried to use a regular hand saw but it took forever. Tried a small electric one and it spun so fast it melted and bubbled the plastic. In the end I cut it with a double bladed table saw (dunno if it has a specific name).

They have plexi / lexan / whatever in the glass section of most hardware stores. Mine is from home depot like I said. The trough I got at Tractor supply co. I basically live in the middle of the shopping hub for like 8 major towns so every store you can think of is within 5 minutes driving from my apt.

To Formica, although they aren't classified as arboreal like tristis tristis / orientalis or even something like gilleni, I would say that the majority of odatria are semi-arbroeal and will climb to suprising heights if given that option. Brandon at rare earth has 8 foot high enclosures and frequently finds yellow ackies and storri at the highest points looking down.

[formica]

To Formica, although they aren't classified as arboreal like tristis tristis / orientalis or even something like gilleni, I would say that the majority of odatria are semi-arbroeal and will climb to suprising heights if given that option. Brandon at rare earth has 8 foot high enclosures and frequently finds yellow ackies and storri at the highest points looking down.

interesting, the only things I've read, and pictures I've seen, where wild pics of them behaving very much as terrestrial's, digging around in the dirt, under rocks etc, however there was some indication that those particular habitats didnt really contain many trees or high points, bit of a rocky wasteland, i've not been to their habitat myself, but I wonder whether this is another example of monitors adapting to take advantage of the environment they are presented with

then again Savs are considered terrestrial too, but they certainly enjoy climbing trees and sleeping in high places that they arnt supposed to :D

[Lickeypie]

Very interesting. The plexi glass seems to be an expensive pain in the butt! At my highschool, the bearded dragons were kept in troughs like that (not sure if they still are). But I like the idea!

[formica]

Home depot doesn't cut glass for you anymore, or plexi glass. This stuff is VERY thick, which is why It cost so much but it hasn't bowed in the least with the lamps so thats good. I tried breaking it down the middle after making a line with a plastic cutter and it strayed off the cut line half way through so I was forced to round the edges in order to salvage the piece. I tried to use a regular hand saw but it took forever. Tried a small electric one and it spun so fast it melted and bubbled the plastic. In the end I cut it with a double bladed table saw (dunno if it has a specific name).

a tip for next time, use water as a lubricant, and a tool with an adjustable speed, you want to cut it on a fairly slow speed, and a few drops of water regulaly will help keep things cool if you need to cut more than an inche or two - obviously it depends on the tool you have, you dont want water to get into the electrics, for thick acrylic I use a jigsaw with adjustable speed and a blade designed for metals like aluminium, with a jigsaw its very important that the sheet is well secured, any flex while the blade is cutting can result in cracks

[B_Aller]

one thing to keep in mind is that in captivity, for the most part we can't offer anything other than terrestrial style caging. Most homes and apartments have about an 8ft ceiling height. 8 ft off the ground is no where close to arboreal, so keeping a species considered terrestrial in a 6- 8ft tall cage is not offering them an arboreal existence. Birders have a saying that I think applies here, when the book says one thing and the animal does another, believe the animal. My experience has been that even the species considered ground dwelling will utilize the limited height we can give in captivity. Do you really think storii aren't found 8 ft off the ground in rock piles?
Any enclosure you design and build should have the goal of offering enrichment and security to it's occupants why would storii be any different.
I've got a friend who keeps storii in 6ft tall enclosures and his are at the top of the enclosure most days. Personally I find that going as tall as possible allows the best options for both vertical and horizontal thermal gradients.

[Pirarucu]

one thing to keep in mind is that in captivity, for the most part we can't offer anything other than terrestrial style caging. Most homes and apartments have about an 8ft ceiling height. 8 ft off the ground is no where close to arboreal, so keeping a species considered terrestrial in a 6- 8ft tall cage is not offering them an arboreal existence. Birders have a saying that I think applies here, when the book says one thing and the animal does another, believe the animal. My experience has been that even the species considered ground dwelling will utilize the limited height we can give in captivity. Do you really think storii aren't found 8 ft off the ground in rock piles?
Any enclosure you design and build should have the goal of offering enrichment and security to it's occupants why would storii be any different.
I've got a friend who keeps storii in 6ft tall enclosures and his are at the top of the enclosure most days. Personally I find that going as tall as possible allows the best options for both vertical and horizontal thermal gradients.Very well said Ben.

[ErikBush97]

$195 probably would have bought you, or been close to the price of a professional display enclosure.

[B_Aller]

$195 probably would have bought you, or been close to the price of a professional display enclosure.

oh MAN, Thanks for the belly laugh!
This is the exact reason I no longer sell enclosures to the public, not a clue as to what goes into a "professional display enclosure" or the costs of running a business.

[Lickeypie]

You said you live in an apartment... Do the landlords mind your reptiles? You must have gotten some stares carrying the trough into your apartment. :)

[smy_749]

I live in one of those complexes where there are so many apartments (168) the lady in the office doesn't really know whats going on with any of them I'm sure. Everyone in here has huge dogs so I doubt they'd care. Pets are allowed and the maintenance man was all excited to see what I had. I think the neighbors think I'm growing weed. I brought bags and bags of soil , a trough, glass top and light fixture in the house. I have a beard and live alone too :P

Very informative posts Ben. As to the 195 for a professionally built enclosure....you either forgot a zero, or have different standards of professional. I'd like to know where you could find a 4 x 2 x2 that holds all that dirt and humidity/heat for 195?

[infernalis]

oh MAN, Thanks for the belly laugh!
This is the exact reason I no longer sell enclosures to the public, not a clue as to what goes into a "professional display enclosure" or the costs of running a business.

When I was running my motocross track, people would whine about my admission charges. "It's just a field with a track on it" I wish I had all the money I ever spent on renting bulldozers back right now in one lump sum!

Oh, and when the county re-asses the property as a "commercial entity" and the tax bill jumps up by an extra 2K a year.

My meager 4x8 box is 75% salvaged materials, and I spent well over that $195 in just hardware & plywood. and it's STILL just a box.

When I see people gripe about the shipping charges for an order of feeders packed in dry ice and wrapped in insulation I wonder if they really should be keeping a varanid at all.

Or should all of that packing that costs the supplier roughly the same as they charge us be free? They could use clever wording to make it seem free, but if they want to stay in business for more than five minutes, the costs are always going to be carried over to the buyer.

Keeping these animals well takes money, time and effort.

[franks]

Well said Wayne, i think many underestimate the looming costs of correctly providing for their monitors. My enclosure is mostly glass and did not cost me $1. One of the perks to being a builder. I have an entire garage of glass, wood, lighting, and materials that I save for my reptile projects. Lol i very much doubt I will ever use it all.

[Pirarucu]

I think the neighbors think I'm growing weed. I brought bags and bags of soil , a trough, glass top and light fixture in the house. I have a beard and live alone too :PYou are not the only reptile keeper I have known who has been thought to be growing weed... A friend in Florida was actually investigated when neighbors saw him taking home grow lights (heat lamps) strange weapons (snake hooks) and handing out small packages (frozen rats) to friends...

[infernalis]

Been there myself. My neighbors turned me in because I was carrying in buckets of dirt, and I do sell frozen mice to a few local keepers.

This one kid kept coming to the house and buying like 2 mice at a time, I wrapped them in foil and met him at the front door, took his cash and handed him the foil packet.

It was laughable actually, I GLADLY show my animals off to any government agent/employee or officer who asks.

The DEC guy complimented my level of care and shook my hand.

[Mikoh4792]

great stories.

[smy_749]

Hahahaha funny how suspicious we can make ourselves look. My neighbor below me is a complete *** so I hope she reports me so I can make her feel even stupider.