Winter Heating in Large Enclosures

[bigsnakegirl785]

Ok, so it's starting to cool off where I live now. It's getting into the high-40's (Fahrenheit) at night, and barely breaks into the 70's during the day (there's a few days this week that are supposed reach the mid-70s, though). So, it's becoming a little harder to heat Cloud and Bud's enclosures. They are custom-built wooden enclosures measuring 6ft long, 2ft wide, and 3ft tall. They are being heated with RHPs, which keeps the ambient air temps at 85F (86F in Cloud's), a hot spot of 90F, and a cool side of 75F. They stay at slightly cooler temps nowadays, if I keep my door and windows closed at all times. I have closed the storm windows, but it hasn't really helped. So, it's 85-86F in both cages. If I open my door, it very quickly drops to 75F. They have tempered glass doors, so I was thinking of buying some window insulation film to put on them.

I have tried putting UTHs under them, but they just won't stick. I tried duct tape, electrical tape, and the sticky side of the UTH. None of those methods worked, and the UTH quickly just peeled off and fell to the floor. My dad is unconvinced of the importance of maintaining these temperatures, so I'm having a hard getting any major changes done on the cage. He's absolutely convinced they will be fine at 65-70F constantly, so I can only do basic changes to it as I have no experience at building anything, except while we worked on these cages. They don't have insulation in the sides, despite me being adamant on the subject, because my dad was so sure that the cages wouldn't need it. That was before I had the funds to help pay for all of the materials (I bought everything but the RHPs and the glass doors), so I had to go with it. No amount of care sheets, or other people's projects will convince him. Now I can buy the insulation, but I need my fathers help to remove them from the legs and take off the outside boards to install them.

He also won't let me buy a heater for my room. We have a wood stove in the living room, right outside my room, but last year my room never got above 65F even with it completely filled with wood and a fan blowing hot air into my room. It was usually around 55-60F. Of course, they were in smaller enclosures then, so it wasn't a problem. So, I was wondering if having the film on the doors and a UTH would be enough to heat them? Any ideas on getting the UTH to stick to the underside of the cage?

I am using probes hooked up to the thermostats to gauge hot end temps, and regular thermometers on the cool ends. The kind that you use to take the air temp of houses with. I am looking in to getting a probe digital thermometer, but I'm not sure which brand to use, and I'll be getting a temp gun as well. The probe is 4in off of the bedding, so about 6in off the bottom of the cages. The hygrometer I bought says it also reads temps, but the directions said nothing of the sort, and I don't see them on the actual screen. It's ExoTerra.

[Mikoh4792]

I've been taping my UTH's and they've been sticking without problems.


I just lay down an outline with double sided tape and once I stick the UTH onto that, I go over the UTH with some aluminum tape.

But of course it will depend on what kind of heat pad you use. I use ultratherms which are thin and light so they will hold in place.

[formica]

What species have you got in the enclosure?

duct tape and electrical tape are heat sensitive, thats why it wont stick, double sided tape should be better as suggested

another simple thing you can do, is cover the entire outside of the enclosure with tin foil, tape/glue it like wall paper, and/or cover with bubble wrap, and then just put a blanket over the front of the enclosure so you have easy access


keep your probe/thermometer on top of the substrate, not 4-6inches above it, i doubt ur snake hovers 6inches above the substrate ;)

[bigsnakegirl785]

I'm using ZooMed ReptiTherm UTHs.

Ok, I'll go out and get the tape, and cover up the cages. That's great, because I have, like 4 or 5 rolls of aluminum foil that we don't really use. XD There usually isn't very many left-overs here, and we usually use the Saran wrap.

I've got a boa constrictor and a ball python in the enclosures.

I have it 6in off of the floor, to give room for the bedding depth, which I like to keep at least 3in deep. It's 4in off the bedding, because that's the *rough* height of their coils, and it gives me a few more inches to play with the bedding. I can easily bring it down, though. :)

[Mikoh4792]

Yeah I would definitely lay it on the substrate. If it's a few inches off the ground, the actual hotspot will be much hotter.


Besides, if you put a hide over the hotspot it should create a pocket of hot air so you won't need to worry about the top of the body.

[formica]

what kind of thermostats are you using? with the possibility of 65F, I'd suggest using a pulse proportional, to keep the temps more stable if you are using on/off type, you definitly dont want the BCI going anywhere near 65F, dont know about the ball, but I suspect the same is true


yep, lay the probe straight on the substrate, no need to hang it in the air

[bigsnakegirl785]

I am using two VE-100 On/Off thermostats, one for each RHP. I was going to get two more thermostats for the UTHs anyway. I'll look back on the website, and find some proportionals.

Alright, I'll move the probes down sometime today.

[Terranaut]

This is an easy fix. Use the foil heating and air conditioning tape and cover the edge of the mat by about 3/4" and the rest on bottom of the viv. This will stick. Getting a new thermostat is useless if you can't maintain a minimum temp.

[infernalis]

Insulation, insulation, insulation ;)

I absolutely love it, reduces energy consumption.

If your enclosure is your animal's home, why not insulate it like your home?

[Terranaut]

Insulation, insulation, insulation ;)

I absolutely love it, reduces energy consumption.

If your enclosure is your animal's home, why not insulate it like your home?

This is of course the best way to go.

[infernalis]

This is of course the best way to go.

Yes it is, provides a far more stable environment that does not fluctuate with room temps.

[EL Ziggy]

Insulation, insulation, insulation ;)

I absolutely love it, reduces energy consumption.

If your enclosure is your animal's home, why not insulate it like your home?
What kind of insulation do you recommend?

[bigsnakegirl785]

I did try to get him to get insulation while we were building it, and I've been bringing up taking them apart and putting in insulation. I'll keep bringing it up, and maybe I'll be able to get him do it. I'll definitely need his help with it though, because they're bolted to a wooden frame, and they would fall over without someone there to help balance them when taking it apart.

[formica]

no reason to deconstruct it to add insulation, it is still effective on the outside, foil will help reflect heat back into the enclosure, bubble wrap will form an insulating layer of air, the more layers you can put on, the better, but even one will make a diffrence, attach it with the bubbles facing into the enclosure and u would double its effectivness

another option could be to pin foam board panels to the outside, and then cover with sheet plywood, or anything you have to hand - its all about trapping layers of air so that heat cannot transfer straight out into the room, even layers of paper will do the trick

[bigsnakegirl785]

The way we have it built right now, the ends have empty pockets of air. The ends were left with 1 inch or so edges, and then we covered them with plywood, so I figured since we already have that enclosed area, just put some foam insulation boards in there, and then I could put foil on the backs and the bottoms and drape some blankets over the doors.

[KORBIN5895]

I would just use insulation board and screw it to the outside panel. I would also recommend a 50w-75w che. All you would need is a drill, some screws and a socket. If it is as cold as you are claiming you could run the bulb without a t-stat and just keep you rhp on one for now as a 75w is no where near big enough to heat your cage.

[bigsnakegirl785]

So a question about the CHE's. Will a 75W be enough to heat the cages to 90F at a 3ft height, or should I get a 100W? If not, how low should I place them? I am planning on lowering their hot ends to a 75-80F cool end and switching their hot ends to the other side if the CHE's are up to the job. It should be easier to maintain since it's farther away from the windows. There's a few black CHE bulbs at the local Petsmart, I believe Zoo Med brand, which I've heard a lot of good things about. I really only want to use the black ones since they don't produce any light, which means I can run them 24/7. Also, is there a specific dome/lamp I need to use with them, or would any lamp able to run their wattage work?

[ErikBush97]

If insulation is too much of a hassle, you could do what I do. I plug a space heater into a thermostat and put the probes next to my enclosures.

I bought a used herpstat from my friend because I felt like the on/off thermos would ruin the heater or something.

[KORBIN5895]

You really should get a ceramic fixture capable of handling your Che wattage. All Che are lightless.

[Brently]

What is the floor of the enclosure made of? If it is wood it is probably around 3/4 thick. I would venture to guess that a UTH wouldn't heat the inside that well and even if it did I wouldn't think that it would be very efficient. You could just put it directly in the enclosure and put your temp probe right on it. Then cover it with substrate. If you do this all you really need to do it just drill a small hole for the cord. Or I guess since it is just temporary you could just run the cord through the door and do it that way. Just my 2 cents.

[KORBIN5895]

If the heating pad gets wet it could get damaged.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Does just the part where you screw the light bulb in need to be ceramic, or a lamp that specifically states it can be used for CHE?

The wood is 1/2in thick. I've been trying the UTH outside the enclosure, but you're right. The heat doesn't even get through the wood, let alone the bedding to heat the enclosure. Even on a thermostat, I can barely feel the heat touching it directly after over an hour, so I may have gotten a defective pad or it's too low of a wattage. It's 15 watts I believe, and it's about a foot long by 8in or so (I'll need to re-measure). It's the only size that fits between the supports on the bottom of the cage. But, if the CHE's are as effective as I've been reading I would rather use them since it will also bring up the ambient temperatures.

I do have a medium-space heater, but I have to pretty much run it 24/7 now. It rose the electric bill by about $20 last month and I only used it once or twice in 5-10 minute intervals. I don't want to imagine how much more it will be this month, unless my other family members have been using a lot of electricity as well.

My father had insisted that insulation would insufficient for keeping the cages heated to the temperatures I need, but I didn't believe him so I talked with an insulation company to see what kind of insulation they would recommend. They also agreed that insulation would not be able to keep the cages at 90F with temperatures that I was predicting, with just the RHP. They advised a heater and a ceramic emitter, and I figured plastic over the windows would also be a smart move since they're right next to them. I have tried putting 2 layers of plastic over my windows to cut down on the amount of cold air blowing in, but it's no longer working with how cold it's getting at night. I've also tried using my overhead fan on the lowest setting to help circulate and keep the hot air from escaping into the attic as fast, but it's become ineffective with how much cold air leaks in.

My windows are maybe 1/16th of an inch thick and they don't sit right so there's a lot of incoming air. Not to mention the storm windows are a joke. There's two storm windows each for both of my windows, but they barely fit the frame and are maybe just a little thicker than my actual windows. They sit crooked and fall repeatedly, which is why my grandfather told him it would probably be best install better windows. I don't see it happening any time soon. One time when I was trying to let them down I nearly broke my finger because they both came falling down at the same time. It just broke my fingernail, luckily. My grandfather has also told us that my room isn't very well-insulated and tried to convince my dad to put me in my brother's room or the part of the house my dad sleeps in because of the snakes, but he said I was fine where I was. Which is a cool move on his part.

[KORBIN5895]

As long as the lamp can handle the wattage.

[bigsnakegirl785]

So, I've got the CHE's and the lamps, and the thermostat arrived today (I got a Herpstat 2) and I talked to my father about installing them since he's the one with the tools. At first I was just asking him to help me mount the lamps and thread the wires through the top, and then put a wire mesh cage around it to keep the snakes away from the surfaces. That didn't sound good to him, so he's insisting on cutting a big hole on the top and making a wire dip where the lamps can sit (there's no room in between the cages or between Bud's cage and the ceiling to just have them sit there) slightly inside the cage. I want to put it inside with the cage, so that there will be a much smaller hole for the heat escape from, but is his idea good, too?

[Lankyrob]

If the light sits under a large hole then a lot of the heat will leave through the top. With my CHEs i thread the cable throu the vent nearest wherre you want the bulb.

[Terranaut]

If you have cut a hole in the top (not 100% sure I got what you mean) and add heat , convection will steal heat and humidity from the enclosure. This is why I like RHPs. 2 screws and 1 small hole = done.

[bigsnakegirl785]

He wants to cut a hole in the top of the enclosure so he can put screen there. He wants to bend the screen so it's kind of dipping down in to the cage so that there will be room for it to fit on top of the enclosures. Then, the lamps will sit on top of that dipped-in screen kind of like with a glass tank, but only in a small area.

I figured it would let out a lot of heat and humidity, and I told him so. But, he just said, "The lamp will cover it so it won't escape." I don't know why he keeps trying to make this harder than he needs to. I wanted it to be put inside, so that the only holes will be for the thermostat's probe and the CHE's wire. Then, surround it with a mesh cage so he can't get to it. Then he said, "Putting it inside the cage will allow them to get to it. They'll try their hardest to get to it and get burned." No matter how I explain to him the cage will be designed to be a barrier to keep the snakes from the bulb and lamp, he doesn't understand the concept. Not only will there be less area for the heat and humidity to escape from if we put it inside, it's going to be a lot easier to just drill a few holes than try to cut a shape out of the roof....

[Mikoh4792]

Maybe he just wants to do things his way and doesn't care for efficacy. As you said, you tried to explain and he wouldn't listen. What are you going to do?

[bigsnakegirl785]

That would be exactly like him. Usually I can get him convinced to go my way, but not without a child-like fit. If he doesn't agree to do it by Sunday, I'll just have to do it myself I guess. I know where the tools are, but I don't exactly know how to use them. He'll probably let me use them, and pout for the next few days. I just hope I wouldn't ruin the cages. That's why I wanted him to help me.

[Mikoh4792]

Well there's always a first time for everything!

Although if you have "extra" screen, wood...etc i'd recommend practicing on that before working on your actual cage...so you know what to do.

Also there should be videos on youtube and even forums to help you with the use of tools.


On the bright side, at least he's letting you do it your way as long as you're the one working on the cage.

[Terranaut]

I think I remember Wayne doing something similar with his first Sav set up and he had humidity issues. Wayne?

[bigsnakegirl785]

I've got Cloud's CHE installed and running. I'm now just waiting for it to warm up. Hopefully this will do the trick, and they'll be set for winter! *fingers crossed* The cages are pain to make. Cloud's bulb cage took 8 hours to make, until I found out that the lamps were made to come apart. -.- So, then I had to make a smaller one. I've been working on Cloud's since Saturday morning. I'll take a break and hopefully I can get started on Bud's tomorrow. This is the test run, though!

(As we speak, I can see the temp rising! It's warming up much faster than the RHP ever did. It's only at about 77F right now, but maybe in the next half an hour to an hour it will be 90F!)

[bigsnakegirl785]

So I bought the CHEs and installed them. They aren't doing any better than the RHPs, in fact they're doing a little worse, unless the Herpstat is inaccurate. I've draped a heavy blanket over the front to hold heat. The side with the RHP can keep it at 84-85F+ but the CHE side rarely breaks 80F, and normally stays in the 77-78F range. I'm reading Cloud's branch at 90.3F, but he rarely ever climbs so although he has access to it he never uses it. This is during the day, and I've been trying to allow the wood stove heat my room, but although it's heating my room better than last year (maybe not using that fan helped), it isn't good enough. At night the RHP side falls to 80F with the blanket over it and the CHE side falls to 75F with the blanket, in Cloud's. Bud's enclosure falls to 78F, so this is the first I've had problems with his enclosure. The only thing working is heating with the space heater. So, I'm going to have to run it constantly and heat my room to the temp they need rather than their cage. I'll have to hope it doesn't raise the bill by more than $30 dollars, otherwise my father will no longer let me use the heater. He doesn't know and he doesn't care about the importance of temperature for the snakes, and he won't give me a reason why he set that limit (I guess financial?). If that happens, I'm really not sure what to do. I guess I could move Bud back into his tank, since I didn't have a problem heating it last year because it's so small. Cloud's old tub broke, so I don't have one for him. Besides, he would be too big for it. I guess if it comes to that, I won't have any choice but to either find Cloud a new home or see if one of my mom's friends can care for him. They can't keep on having these low temps, and I can't spend any more money trying to heat these ridiculous enclosures. I honestly think we made it too tall, which is just making this whole thing more difficult to deal with. I did try asking my father to make it 2ft rather than 3ft when we first made it, but I didn't think it would turn out to be this much of a problem so I let it go. Now I wish I would have insisted. Also, yes, I would have tried the insulation if both my father and an insulation company had not of been adamant about the ineffectiveness of the insulation.

[HoldenC]

So I bought the CHEs and installed them. They aren't doing any better than the RHPs, in fact they're doing a little worse, unless the Herpstat is inaccurate... The only thing working is heating with the space heater. I'll have to hope it doesn't raise the bill by more than $30 dollars, otherwise my father will no longer let me use the heater.
What wattage CHE did you get? If it isn't working, can you take it back and get a higher wattage? Also, have you offered to pay your share of the power bill? Heating and enclosure costs are all part of taking care of an animal.

[LarryS]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but would rather you be prepared for the inevitable.

A typical space heater of around 1000 watts could easily add 100.00 a month to your electric bill if it is running 24/7.

If there is any way way you could insulate around the outside of cage (as suggested)you will probably be ahead of the game financially speaking.
The duct board used in the HVAC industry is generally not flammable and also relatively inexpensive.

I truly wish you luck and hope you can reach a solution that is acceptable for both the animal and your Dad!

[Terranaut]

Something is not right here. The room my big enclosures are in it hivering around 73ºish and I have no problems hitting 90º imside them.
Is the cage on the floor? Mine are both sitting on a smalk stack of styrofoam insulation. You have to fix the heat loss first. Then fix the heater. Can you post a few pics of your set up?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Something is not right here. The room my big enclosures are in it hivering around 73ºish and I have no problems hitting 90º imside them.
Is the cage on the floor? Mine are both sitting on a smalk stack of styrofoam insulation. You have to fix the heat loss first. Then fix the heater. Can you post a few pics of your set up?

Cloud's is half a foot, or just under that, off the floor and the bottom of Bud's is 4-5ft off the floor because his is stacked on top of Cloud's with about half a foot between them. How big are your enclosures? I think my enclosures may be a foot too tall; you go up a foot and it's in the low-90's, and in the mid-80's at the bottom. I'll post some pics soon.

I've covered both of their doors with blankets and towels. I've managed to get them to stay at 85F steadily, and I'm going to start working it up slowly to see if I can eventually get it up to 90F. I've stopped using my heater, and my room stays in the low- to mid-70s on a warm night, so I'll see what it's like when we get another 20F or lower night. For some reason once I covered Bud's doors, Cloud's CHE side has been going up to 82-83F.

I bought 100 watt CHE's on 150 watt capacity lamps. The 100 watt was the highest watt offered at my local store. I did offer to pay the difference, but he only agreed to $30 at most, whether or not I paid the whole thing. As I said before, I spoke with an insulation company, and they said I couldn't keep the inside of the enclosure more than 5 degrees above my room temperature.

[Terranaut]

I can hold a 90º hot spot and the other perch is 77-78. The cage floor is 74-75. This is with an 80 watt in a glass 4x2x4 cage. Very verticle. The hot perch is about 16" below the rhp and the other is a foot lower but under the rhp.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I can hold a 90º hot spot and the other perch is 77-78. The cage floor is 74-75. This is with an 80 watt in a glass 4x2x4 cage. Very verticle. The hot perch is about 16" below the rhp and the other is a foot lower but under the rhp.

Cloud's branch is 91-92F and it's about 14in away from the bulb cage, where the limbs meet, and the highest branch is 10in away. Since he's mostly on the ground, I'm aiming for a ground temp of 90F.

Here are some photos of Cloud's enclosure. His hides are removed so you can see the probes.

Both cages.
http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/Other%20Photos/IMG_0754_zps9f4664c9.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/Other%20Photos/IMG_0754_zps9f4664c9.jpg.html)

The CHE.
http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/Other%20Photos/IMG_0760_zps02cfbcd9.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/Other%20Photos/IMG_0760_zps02cfbcd9.jpg.html)

The RHP.
http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/Other%20Photos/IMG_0762_zps9f8562cd.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/Other%20Photos/IMG_0762_zps9f8562cd.jpg.html)

The gap with a ruler in inches for reference. The pale line is where the corner is.
http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/Other%20Photos/IMG_0755_zps7cb2b574.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/Other%20Photos/IMG_0755_zps7cb2b574.jpg.html)

[Terranaut]

Wow. Not sure what to tell you. I would expect the rhp alone to heat those.

[Mikoh4792]

So what temperature are you setting the probe to? The RHP seems a bit too far away from the floor to actually create a hotspot there. I create perches about 6"-10"(depending on the size of my snake) under the rhp.

Like this:
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a594/mikoh4792/20131103_143521_zps7729b01b.jpg


If you want to create a hotspot on the floor.... you'd have to use a heat mat.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I'm not sure exactly what's different now, but I've managed to get Cloud's RHP to reach 90F and Bud's thermostat is set to 89F now. I have tried setting both thermostats to 90F before, but I wasn't able to reach it. Cloud's max was 86F, and Bud's was 85F. Last night I slowly turned up the thermostats degree by degree, mostly to see what the max temp was if they weren't able to reach 90F. Once the probe read the temp I set and turned off, I would bring up the Day Time Temperature and repeat until I either reached 90F or the enclosures max. Well, Cloud's was able to get up to 90F in a few hours and his enclosure is still holding up the temps. Bud's temps were rising slowly, so I only made it to 88F last night and I turned up the thermostat to 89F this morning when I got up. For Bud's enclosure, I packed a bunch of coats and sheets in that small space between the top and the ceiling, and it seems to be helping quite a bit.

[Terranaut]

Ahh. I may have this one figured out. I hope. Try ignoring the thermostat number and just keep bumping it up until you hit your measured temp your looking for. So for example a settung on the thermostat of 99° may be required to hit 90 on your hot spot. Setting radiant heat is not the same as with a uth. Make sense?

[bigsnakegirl785]

I did try this same method before, that's how I got the 85F and 86F numbers. I think when I last did it, though, I either didn't have the CHE or it wasn't covered. I'll be working on getting Bud's CHE installed as a back-up for cold nights, so I'll need to get started on that bulb cage soon. I've gotten Bud's hot side up to 90F as well, so I think everybody's set! It took long enough, but I'm super relieved everything is working now. Unfortunately, I may have to do this every time I have to have the enclosures open for an extended amount of time i.e. mixing water into their bedding for humidity, or the soon-to-come replacement of bedding.

I also think Bud's coming along. He's taken 4 f/t rats consecutively for me, and the amount of time between feedings is slowly decreasing. He was in shed last week, but he took his rat only just over 2 weeks from his last meal. Next week I'll see if he'll be hungry enough to take another. We finally got some breeder rabbits yesterday morning; two does, one of which is pregnant. We originally were only going to get one, but apparently the white one refused to breed so they offered her as well. We'll try our hand at it, but if we have the same luck she'll end up as dinner. Now we just need to get a buck. The rabbits will be both for snake food and for personal consumption.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I was correct in my last post. When I wet Bud and Cloud's bedding yesterday I had to start over. Bud's made up for the loss of heat and has been maintaining 90F since an hour or two after I finished. I've had to go through the whole process of slowly bumping Cloud's enclosure all over. I've got it to 89F so far. Well, this will be irritating but at least they'll get the heat they need.