Scaleless Ball Python???

[BoaBoy91]

So BHB has the world 1st scaleless ball python and so far it looks really cool but wont it probably have some crazy shed problems?

[Aaron_S]

I wouldn't call it a world's first. There was another before this a few years ago. It's dead though from what I've read.

Also, it's not out of the egg yet so I reserve judgement on it until see it thrive.

[smy_749]

First one was called the derma ball. It was like 80 % or so scaleless, I don't know if its dead or if someone bought it and it was never heard from again, but yea....Is the new one 100% scaleless?

Edit: To answer your question, we already have scaleless corns, ratsnakes, beardies, etc. So I don't think it would necessarily have any issues with shedding. But like Aaron said, there is nothing to say the super form is lethal and won't last out of the egg except for a few hours / days...

[Aaron_S]

First one was called the derma ball. It was like 80 % or so scaleless, I don't know if its dead or if someone bought it and it was never heard from again, but yea....Is the new one 100% scaleless?

No clue. It's STILL IN THE EGG! lol...

[smy_749]

No clue. It's STILL IN THE EGG! lol...

derp. hahahaha touche

[Stewjoe]

The hets had scales missing from their heads. Brian is hoping it proves to be co-dom and creates a fully scaleless snake.

[Caylan]

I wonder if they have an egg tooth...

[KORBIN5895]

So basically nothing is known about the genetics at the moment....

[Robin.M]

Anything to make him money, he'll do. Those people don't give a **** about the health of snakes. Pariahs in the reptile community IMO.

Rob

[KORBIN5895]

Anything to make him money, he'll do. Those people don't give a **** about the health of snakes. Pariahs in the reptile community IMO.

Rob

Every post I like you more.

[Robin.M]

Every post I like you more.

Every day that passes that I don't have nude pics of you, I like you less....

Fix this or I will ostracize you as well. LOL

Rob

[smy_749]

So basically nothing is known about the genetics at the moment....

According to Brian, it is a codominate morph and the 100% scaleless is the super form. Thats just speculation although from the pictures of the egg it does look like it will be 100% scaleless..

[Aaron_S]

According to Brian, it is a codominate morph and the 100% scaleless is the super form. Thats just speculation although from the pictures of the egg it does look like it will be 100% scaleless..

Doesn't mean we can be certain of the genetics.

It might not survive either. Just like other "super forms".

Also, it's an accomplishment if it does prove genetic and that's neat in it's own right but I don't want anything that has increased health concerns that may affect it's quality of life.

[KORBIN5895]

Doesn't mean we can be certain of the genetics.

It might not survive either. Just like other "super forms".

Also, it's an accomplishment if it does prove genetic and that's neat in it's own right but I don't want anything that has increased health concerns that may affect it's quality of life.

Say it does survive, what has the breeder actually accomplished? It's not like he really did anything special.

[Robin.M]

Say it does survive, what has the breeder actually accomplished? It's not like he really did anything special.

He's accomplished making all the kids and ignorant uneducated hicks that watch his YouTube show jump for joy at the promise of perhaps making millions of dollars breeding ball pythons (since he says it's so easy to make it rich).

Rob

[Hannibalcanibal]

OH, WOW. ANOTHER BALL PYTHON MORPH. I'M SO THRILLED BY SEEING ANOTHER BALL PYTHON MORPH. WE NEED MORE OF THOSE.

No offense to any ball fanatics, but jeez, there sure are a ton of ball python projects now... although i like mine, i'm tired of all the news being balls balls balls. We need more new stuff.

[KORBIN5895]

OH, WOW. ANOTHER BALL PYTHON MORPH. I'M SO THRILLED BY SEEING ANOTHER BALL PYTHON MORPH. WE NEED MORE OF THOSE.

No offense to any ball fanatics, but jeez, there sure are a ton of ball python projects now... although i like mine, i'm tired of all the news being balls balls balls. We need more new stuff.

Why don't you take a peek at boa morphs then? Some truly amazing stuff popping up.

[slowhite03]

for all that have no idea, here is the picture. I dont really see anything but hey, i could care less about boas in general

[smy_749]

It probably was easy 30 years ago if you made the right purchases....

@Aaron, thats why I said according to Brian :P

and@ Kevin, what does any breeder who breeds any 'mutation' actually accomplish? Other than another color and pattern?

I think the word 'accomplish' is permitted when you breed a species which hasn't been bred before like boelens or something, but not when you simply get the opportunity to purchase an animal and prove it out because the exporter in africa came to you first, or when you 'hit your odds' on a clutch.

[charlesc84]

I think it looks pretty cool so far.

[smy_749]

I think the amount of ball mutations and morphs is actually pretty fascinating. I just don't like ball pythons/morphs and how they flood the market and the type of person they typically attract.

[KORBIN5895]

for all that have no idea, here is the picture. I dont really see anything but hey, i could care less about boas in general

Reread the title.

[Caylan]

Re-read the title? How about the fact that it's a picture of a snake in an egg lol. I'm sure they meant to say balls anyway, but still :D

[BoaBoy91]

silly rabbit boas dont hatch from eggs anyway so of course he meant balls

[desipooh.12]

Just recently I've been getting into the ball morphs
Simply because I love the "bees", I think its cool
That its happened but then again its like a science experiment
To make $ off of.. Idk I'm in the middle about it..
I'm just curious on what it will look like when it comes out..

[Starbuck]

Maybe Aaron/another ball breeder can comment on this some more:

A picture of a snake in an egg, to me, doesnt mean that much... especially since so much can go wrong before the snake even makes it out. Do you think he waited to give the news until it was out, alert, moving around, etc, or just came out with it right away? If it were me, and i was sitting on something this cool, i would definitely wait until i knew for sure that it was going to at least make it out of the egg.... Im assuming it did since BHB said they war making a video about it, but just looking for some input.

in terms of general opinion: im kind of mixed. I wish it were anything BUT a BP, to spread the spotlight a bit, but i do think its pretty cool. Ethically, I dont think it is that much different from a dachshund/great dane/labrador stand point.

[KORBIN5895]

Re-read the title? How about the fact that it's a picture of a snake in an egg lol. I'm sure they meant to say balls anyway, but still :D

.............

[Aaron_S]

Maybe Aaron/another ball breeder can comment on this some more:

A picture of a snake in an egg, to me, doesnt mean that much... especially since so much can go wrong before the snake even makes it out. Do you think he waited to give the news until it was out, alert, moving around, etc, or just came out with it right away? If it were me, and i was sitting on something this cool, i would definitely wait until i knew for sure that it was going to at least make it out of the egg.... Im assuming it did since BHB said they war making a video about it, but just looking for some input.

in terms of general opinion: im kind of mixed. I wish it were anything BUT a BP, to spread the spotlight a bit, but i do think its pretty cool. Ethically, I dont think it is that much different from a dachshund/great dane/labrador stand point.

There are other scaleless snakes. Like the corn snake and Brian has those too.

I would wait to see if it lives BUT now everyone is talking about Brian again. Every forum has this pic and conversation including facebook. You can't buy this publicity. Just ask Miley Cyrus.

[BoaBoy91]

Im not really a bp guy but dont you cut an egg like a week or less before the python is due to come out? so it seems like we will find out pretty soon what happens anyway

[alessia55]

Personally I'm excited. I hope it lives, and I hope to see more pics, and more scaleless ball python morph. I'd love to afford one if they become more available/affordable.

[Nobodyspecial]

http://i43.tinypic.com/2z5ssj8.jpg

Just found this on another site, posted by someone who works for BHB. So it looks like they're out of the egg now. Interesting looking snake, but I'm not really sure how I feel about scaleless snakes just yet.

[desipooh.12]

Wow now that looks amazing!
Looks so soft like silk!

[simpleyork]

in a captive environment I don't see anything wrong with having scaleless. But I personally like the wild versions of reptiles.

[Mikoh4792]

Nasty. Like the naked mole rat of reptiles.

[Donnie]

Don't Royals normally have heat pits on the upper part of their mouths?

[smy_749]

Don't Royals normally have heat pits on the upper part of their mouths?

Scaleless snakes lose that... one of the things people have issues with since its a clear disadvantage like the unprotected eye

[Chris72]

Don't Royals normally have heat pits on the upper part of their mouths?

You are 100% correct.

It is said that they can feed without the heat pits....but it does not make the entire thing any less disgusting. Cut my arms off and I will still eat.

Breeding animals for a variation in color is like coloring your hair. You look different but you are exactly the same. (Spider wobble issues aside....different conversation)

This however is actually breeding out a significant part of the animals body!!

I was reading on another site where someone, who worked in the facility where the derma-ball was hatched, (and handled it regularly) said the animal felt like it was going to rip because the skin was so thin. That might be why we don't hear about the animal anymore....because it ripped and died. (Don't know)

Consider:
The husbandry we employ when keeping Royals is based on the needs of the animals (with scales) in the wild. What they seek. We actually don't know to what extent the skin has been changed since it's clear this mutation is not limited to scales.(see: no heat pits) Now the same animals without this major part of its physical body needs:

> Heat range that will be comfortable - nobody knows.
> Certain substrates to be avoided due to being uncomfortable - nobody knows.
> humidity range that will be uncomfortable & heathy- nobody knows.
> The same three items but from the perspective of causing minor damage, again we don't know.
> x? For the eyes to remain comfortable since they are capless.

Will these things be figured out; yes. How many animals have to suffer and or die in the process of this learning curve - nobody knows.

Does it look interesting? Sure it does.

Honestly IMO this animal represents an utmost lack of consideration for the health and comfort for the animals we claim to care for. What they are doing is disgusting hypocrisy.



.

[Lankyrob]

You are 100% correct.

It is said that they can feed without the heat pits....but it does not make the entire thing any less disgusting. Cut my arms off and I will still eat.

Breeding animals for a variation in color is like coloring your hair. You look different but you are exactly the same. (Spider wobble issues aside....different conversation)

This however is actually breeding out a significant part of the animals body!!

I was reading on another site where someone, who worked in the facility where the derma-ball was hatched, (and handled it regularly) said the animal felt like it was going to rip because the skin was so thin. That might be why we don't hear about the animal anymore....because it ripped and died. (Don't know)

Consider:
The husbandry we employ when keeping Royals is based on the needs of the animals (with scales) in the wild. What they seek. We actually don't know to what extent the skin has been changed since it's clear this mutation is not limited to scales.(see: no heat pits) Now the same animals without this major part of its physical body needs:

> Heat range that will be comfortable - nobody knows.
> Certain substrates to be avoided due to being uncomfortable - nobody knows.
> humidity range that will be uncomfortable & heathy- nobody knows.
> The same three items but from the perspective of causing minor damage, again we don't know.

Will these thing be figured out; yes. How many animals have to suffer and or die in the process of this learning curve - nobody knows.

Does it look interesting? Sure it does.

Honestly IMO this animal represents an utmost lack of consideration for the health and comfort for the animals we claim to care for. What they are doing is disgusting hypocrisy.



.

THIS ^^^^ :sad::sad::sad:

[infernalis]

The hets had scales missing from their heads. Brian is hoping it proves to be co-dom and creates a fully scaleless snake.

Clearly animal welfare is not a priority here.

Defend the man if you want, but if someone was intentionally trying to breed skinless dogs or cats with no feet, they would be locked up.

:(:(:(:(

[infernalis]

But I personally like the wild versions of reptiles.

http://www.varanuspark.com/stuff/Likie.png

[Terranaut]

Great post Chris. I think it looks very cool....
BUT!!!
I tend to think of mutations like this. What if man were pets of aliens? They breed us to be black or white or albino....tall or maybe they think big fat ones are just the cutest..whatever..all of the above are still pretty much the same as Chris indicated above. But what if they liked armless babies or severe cleft pallet looks "cool" to them. A little different now isn't it? This is the armless baby right here. All scaless snakes are IMHO in the same boat. I would never own one period.

[smy_749]

I always thought about what would happen if we came up with awesome mutations in humans and 'super forms' like leucistics and what not. Then I remember that eugenics is bad and stop thinking about it.

[Starbuck]

i can't speak for all scaleless snakes, but one of the papers posted on the other scaleless thread said that the snakes were lacking some type of keratin, causing the scaleless phenotype. the way i understood it, the snakes still had all the components/layers of their skin, it just wasn't coalescing/forming the scales themselves. In this way, the snakes still have a layer of skin over their eyes; the skin doesnt involute to form the heat pits, etc etc, but all the components are still there.
Im not sure if all scaleless phenotypes have the same genetic mutation, but if the above is true, it is highly unlikely that the snake will 'rip and die', at least more so than any other baby snake.
I do think it is interesting to think about how this affects their abilities to thermoregulate etc.
I also would like to know if DESPITE the orefices for heat pits being absent, are the nerve endings and structures etc still there, that perhaps the snake CAN still sense heat etc from prey, but in a reduced capacity. I personally need to evaluate this snake on the basis of more than just conjecture and a few photos before i start calling it an abomination etc.

[Chris72]

i can't speak for all scaleless snakes, but one of the papers posted on the other scaleless thread said that the snakes were lacking some type of keratin, causing the scaleless phenotype. the way i understood it, the snakes still had all the components/layers of their skin, it just wasn't coalescing/forming the scales themselves. In this way, the snakes still have a layer of skin over their eyes; the skin doesnt involute to form the heat pits, etc etc, but all the components are still there.
Im not sure if all scaleless phenotypes have the same genetic mutation, but if the above is true, it is highly unlikely that the snake will 'rip and die', at least more so than any other baby snake.
I do think it is interesting to think about how this affects their abilities to thermoregulate etc.
I also would like to know if DESPITE the orefices for heat pits being absent, are the nerve endings and structures etc still there, that perhaps the snake CAN still sense heat etc from prey, but in a reduced capacity. I personally need to evaluate this snake on the basis of more than just conjecture and a few photos before i start calling it an abomination etc.


Was reading this study last night:
http://www.ejh.it/index.php/ejh/article/download/1136/1257

I'm not a vet so there some terms I don't understand however clearly scaleless is not the same (unless I misunderstood )

Pasted from the study linked above:

"In moults of the scaleless snake C. atrox utilized in the present study, only an oberhautchen-like layer appears to be present, probably representing the remnant of the thin beta-layer. This thin layer was probably described also in the colubrid snake Pituophis melanoleucus catenifer (Licht and Bennet, 1972). The low amount of beta-keratin bands at relatively high molecular weight (33 kDa) may be derived from this narrow layer, although the immunocytochemical study showed no immunola- belling.

In the scaleless snake, mechanical resistance of the skin is limited and the epidermis becomes fold- ed and pliable, as in the epidermis of mammals (Licht and Bennet, 1968). Without an impliant beta-layer, the remaining alpha-layer has insuffi- cient rigidity to resist forces of deformation acting on the skin. "


Not a very long paper, but I didn't see when it was noted that total thickness of the skin is now equivalent to natural skin plus scales. I may have missed it because some scientific terms were unfamiliar. (Apologies if that was the case)

As with most new things in science we will likely figure out, 15 years down the road, that most of what think at first was incomplete or just wrong.

In the meantime who pays the price? The animals. (Likely allot of animals)


How much different is this:
I would love to have a dog but all that slobber is gross and the wet nose is Gross. Now if someone would breed a dog with a dry nose, no tongue and for good measure breed out paws so it's not always running around because that annoying. (The breeders photo would be all over the news and he would become a public enemy overnight)


This scaleless thing turns my stomach.

.

[formica]

http://i43.tinypic.com/2z5ssj8.jpg

Just found this on another site, posted by someone who works for BHB. So it looks like they're out of the egg now. Interesting looking snake, but I'm not really sure how I feel about scaleless snakes just yet.

love the look of it. dont have any ethical issues with experimentation like this myself - for me the ethics only come into play if the snakes are bred and found to suffer as a result of the mutation, and they continue to breed and sell them without any possibility of stopping their suffering by careful care, otherwise, its a fascinating time for naturalists, geneticists and snake fans the world over

[Chris72]

Published paper: EVAPORATIVE WATER LOSS IN SCALELESS SNAKES

Link: http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/18.pdf

[ErikBush97]

Anything to make him money, he'll do. Those people don't give a **** about the health of snakes. Pariahs in the reptile community IMO.

Rob

As others have said + common sense has suggested. There's already scaleless reptiles that are healthy, and have the same needs as normal. Why would a Ball Python be any different? I would expect them to be normal, healthy snakes.

[Starbuck]

Lol chris r.e. the dog.... I also don't like shedding, so lets make it
hairless.... uouve described a snake!!! Hahaha :-)
On a sadder note, we have already done these things, with dachshunds corgis, hip dysplasia with labs, etc etc etc. These 'horrible' things have already been done.
I didnt mean to imply that the scaleless skin was as thick as a normal snake, rather that it wasn't as structurally poor as we might think. From what I understand scales developementally are juat folding/invaginations of the epidermis with localized keratinization creating the scale itself. Take away that keratin and ....??? As formixa said I think this is a useful and interesting phenomenon, and could definitely be useful to human medicine/developemental biology.
Until someone can prove to me the snake is suffering or not aufferimg, I'm going to abscond from passing judgement.

[Nobodyspecial]

I don't like the idea of calling the snake itself an abomination. It has nothing more to do with this than being born. I'm personally more disappointed with the breeder, but that started way before this little guy came to be.

I'm also curious about the heat pit thing, surely at least the nerve endings and such are still present, but without the pits themselves I wonder if it alters the way the snake "sees" heat. Without the protection of the normal scales surrounding them will the skin form a callous over the nerves making the pits almost useless? The snake's eyes as well, since we all know that they have the modified scale eye caps. This animal would in theory be missing that. Does it mess with their already iffy vision? Making them even more sensitive to bright lights etc? I haven't heard whether or not this animal is missing the ventral scales either - like the one born in 2007 was. If they are missing I can only imagine how difficult it'd be for them to move. I'm sure ultimately the animal will adapt to the hindrances caused by scalelessness, nature is quite stubborn like that.

I hope they don't continue the line until they at least are sure that the animals can reach a decent age without any health problems. (I'm pretty sure out of the two scaleless that where born one is male...) But that's a childishly optimistic hope when it comes to these people...

[Chris72]

Lol chris r.e. the dog.... I also don't like shedding, so lets make it hairless.... uouve described a snake!!! Hahaha :-)............

Right.. :)

So for Franken-Dog:

>So we have taken away all the dogs slobering and wet bits.
>Removed the legs to get rid of all that pesky running around.
>Ok, need to get all the hair of that dog now...(check!)
>Now....lets just make him nice a shiny and a little more durable by adding some scales and he will perfect.

Wait..what..? (and...we're back!!)


.

[slowhite03]

I'm going to get bashed probably for this but whatever. Humans do animal mutations all the freaking time. Dogs, cats, and if course snakes just to name a few. Now I don't know how these animals are produced, how does a scaleless head python come about anyway? What I'm trying to say unless we somehow insert these genes into the snake, then these could happen in the wild theoretically. We have scaleless every other type of breed of snake and as far as I know they so just fine. So why I don't neccisarly believe that it is right, we as humans want to be the first at everything. It's what we do.

[Robin.M]

We have scaleless every other type of breed of snake and as far as I know they so just fine.

Here is just a short list of the species I know that we have yet to find a scaleless variation of:

Blood Pythons
Short Tail Pythons
Boa Constrictors
Reticulated Pythons
Burmese Pythons
Indian Pythons
African Rock Pythons
Childrens Python
Anthill Pythons
Green Tree Pythons
Emerald Tree Boas
Sand Boas
Viper Boas
Indigo
False Water Cobra
Hognose
King Cobra
Monocled Cobra
Indian Cobra
Gaboon Viper
Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake
Pygmy Rattlesnake
Mojave Rattlesnake
Coral Snake
Amazon Tree Boa
Olive Python
Woma Python
Carpet Python
Blackheaded Python
Rhino Rat Snake

Shall I go on?

Now that I have listed a VERY SMALL number of the species that have yet to be proven to have scaleless within their ranks, please can you inform me of ALL the species you know of? Besides Ball Python, Corn Snake, and Rat Snakes...

Rob

[RobsCornField]

Here is just a short list of the species I know that we have yet to find a scaleless variation of:

Blood Pythons
Short Tail Pythons
Boa Constrictors
Reticulated Pythons
Burmese Pythons
Indian Pythons
African Rock Pythons
Childrens Python
Anthill Pythons
Green Tree Pythons
Emerald Tree Boas
Sand Boas
Viper Boas
Indigo
False Water Cobra
Hognose
King Cobra
Monocled Cobra
Indian Cobra
Gaboon Viper
Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake
Pygmy Rattlesnake
Mojave Rattlesnake
Coral Snake
Amazon Tree Boa
Olive Python
Woma Python
Carpet Python
Blackheaded Python
Rhino Rat Snake

Shall I go on?

Now that I have listed a VERY SMALL number of the species that have yet to be proven to have scaleless within their ranks, please can you inform me of ALL the species you know of? Besides Ball Python, Corn Snake, and Rat Snakes...

Rob

Actually, a couple on your list *do* have scaleless variations.

Burmese pythons:

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/waterview89c/IMG_4483.jpg

Scaleless albino atrox:

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/download/6627/paring%20atroxen%20en%20sanzinias%20007.JPG

Scaleless atrox:

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/download/6546/special%20scaleless%20006.JPG




It's looking more and more like a lot of the species that are being heavily propagated in captivity are turning up with the scaleless mutation. Even scaleless gopher snakes have cropped up as far back as 1971 (and that one was a *GASP* WILD-CAUGHT!). The scaleless mutation is nothing new. It's just something that, through the line-breeding for traits and morphs, is coming to light more commonly.




EDIT: Here's a couple more:

Gopher snake:

http://www.captivebredreptileforums.co.uk/attachments/snakes-general/11836d1290120006-fao-al-stotton-scaleless-gopher-snake-60024scalless3.jpg

Adder:

http://www.sareptiles.co.za/gallery/albums/userpics/13948/Scale-less_800_(Small).jpg

[Robin.M]

WOW! I never knew Burms and Westerns had scaleless variations...

They just look odd. The scales and rattler are what makes a Rattler a RATTLER!

So, seeing the pics of the Westerns, the rattles don't have the build up of scales there. Do these snakes still have the ability to rattle or no?

Rob

[RobsCornField]

WOW! I never knew Burms and Westerns had scaleless variations...

They just look odd. The scales and rattler are what makes a Rattler a RATTLER!

So, seeing the pics of the Westerns, the rattles don't have the build up of scales there. Do these snakes still have the ability to rattle or no?

Rob

It is my understanding that they cannot rattle. It looks like "nature" decided those were non-essential in the scaleless trait, unlike ventral scales and eye-caps.

[RobsCornField]

In doing even more research (and here I thought I had done plenty before bringing my own mutant scaleless Texas rat snake home), it looks like scaleless snakes have been in the hobby since at least 1990, when Dr. Bechtel proved the gene in Texas rat snakes out as simple recessive. However, there were instances of scaleless snakes being captured in the wild long before then.

Eastern garter - 1982
Mole snake - 1978
Pacific Gopher Snake - 1971
Western garter - 1942

They were captured in various stages of maturity, and "none have been noted to have been any more scarred than a normal snake from the same habitat". source (http://www.ratsnakezone.com/ratsnake-information/112.html)

So for those of you who say "this could NEVER survive in the wild! It's an abomination", nature just told you differently.


EDIT:

Scaleless hognose. Because reasons.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g285/joep_02/hog1.jpg

[warehouse13fan]

I quite enjoy them....and wouldn't mind having one.... these snakes are getting it just as bad the hybrids people saying their unnatural and crap.

[rhiannon79]

Personally looking at the pics adove I th8nk they look a little sick like old people who loose the color and thickness to there skin like the snakes have a health issue im sure thats not the case but thats what it lloks like to me

[warehouse13fan]

they are completly healthy.. unless cared for wrongly

[snakeman879]

Just my opinion I think the bp with no scales looks really nice I wouldent want to own one but I wouldent want a bp of eny kind full stop. I think if the breeders could say for certain that the snake could live a happy and healthy life then I dont c a problem with it. There is allways going to be people wanting to pay big buks for strange animals its human nature to want somthing no one els has. My opinion is there are way to much bp out there eny way all shows and expos are stuffed with them and the ones with no scales will be next I guess if they can survive.

[bluerain]

Funnily i was just watching snakebytes all about the two brian has. He says they have no shed problems...move absoloutly fine..and..do have eye protection. He also said altho they dont have heat pits so to speak..they can still heat locate..i like them ;-)

[DeesBalls]

I just dont understand why people are making such a fuss-- and calling BHB negative inpact on the reptile community.. .really? His job is to breed and make money, so i dont think he is in the wrong on that.... a scaleless snake in captivity i see no ill harm to the snake...

the snake eats fine, sheds fine, and goes pee and poop.. so whats everyone problem with them?

did everyone think all this negativity when the albino came out? or the pied? or even when BHB got the first pinstripe?

i cant wait for future projects on the scaleless:) just my opinion :)

[slowhite03]

Here's the video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OWZcLuFH6rI&feature=m-ch-fea

[DragonsEye]

... did everyone think all this negativity when the albino came out? ...

An interesting point.

I definitely can understand being against this if the snake is suffering as a result. But if the snakes prove healthy with no issues?

Out of curiosity, for those of you who are dead set against it, are you also against morphs in general? How about albinos, as DB mentioned? For that matter, are you also against many of the dog and cat breeds? (For example, with bulldogs or the other pug-faced breeds -- or Persians their cat counterparts -- the resulting "look" comes with the price tag of truly messed up sinus/nasal passages.) Please do not take this as a verbal attack -- it is not meant as such. I am genuinely curious.

[DeesBalls]

I mean, people breed spiders knowing they can have wobble issues, people breed cinnys to try for super cinnys... knowing they can have problems too. if the snake is healthy, and live a good life, what does it matter if it is missing its scales?

yes- maybe instead of a 92-94 hot spot or whatever you prefer, maybe these species will require us to keep them a little low, because they could be harmed by warmer heat, we dont know this yet, and we wont know for a while- while i RESPECT everyone's opinions, i again am just stating my point....

trying to relate this to other animals, what about the sphinx cat (sp) to my recollection, they are hairless cats, or even Chinese crested dogs, also hairless- and even require sunscreen in the summer. what are your thoughts on these animals?

In captivity, these snakes will do just fine- there is nothing ethically wrong. my $.02

[BoaBoy91]

wooooow $125,000 offer for 1 scaleless ball python.....thats insane to me. what if scaleless ball pythons don't produce or have some weird genetic things going on like super jungle boas

[DeesBalls]

wooooow $125,000 offer for 1 scaleless ball python.....thats insane to me. what if scaleless ball pythons don't produce or have some weird genetic things going on like super jungle boas

its all part of the "risk" i guess... like i said, some other morphs already have problems, and we still breed them, do we not?

my thing is, if your this against the scaleless, then you need to be against either all morphs, Or simply just the ones that are known to cause defects....

just think of the crazy combos that could come out with this... imagine a scaless pied, or scaless albino... or even like a scaless pin. its going to be crazy!

[thinkbig317]

I just dont understand why people are making such a fuss-- and calling BHB negative inpact on the reptile community.. .really? His job is to breed and make money, so i dont think he is in the wrong on that.... a scaleless snake in captivity i see no ill harm to the snake...

the snake eats fine, sheds fine, and goes pee and poop.. so whats everyone problem with them?

did everyone think all this negativity when the albino came out? or the pied? or even when BHB got the first pinstripe?

i cant wait for future projects on the scaleless:) just my opinion :)

Couldnt agree more!!!!

[DeesBalls]

Couldnt agree more!!!!

thanks for the support. Most of these type of issues i dont really comment on, this is just one i really feel stongly for and can help the ball python community.

[TheZoo]

Although persnally I dont really agree with the breeding I do edmit the scaless snakes look very "adorable" they kinda remind me of baby animals only not fluffy