Salmonella!

[Toothless]

My 3 month old son was diagnosed with Salmonella yesterday, and of course the first thing the doctor said was that Toothless caused it.
Now I know reptiles can carry salmonella, but I'm very careful about my care around him. My older son is not allowed to go into the enclosure and all reptile utensils are kept out of reach. Toothless is not allowed out of the enclosure, I use gloves to handle him, and wash my hands after feeding him.
I'm struggling to find out exactly HOW my son caught this nasty thing, and keep it from happening again. The hospital is running further tests to see what strain it is, which will help us find out where it came from.
He got it sometime last weekend, so I have been trying to determine possible sources. I fed toothless chicken last weekend, but never touched him and washed my hands afterwards but there could still have been some contamination I missed. I also opened a new can of formula that weekend, but I'm hoping it didn't come from that. I didn't eat any chicken, beef or eggs, so doubt it came from those. Are there any other possible sources that I should be looking into. I really don't think it came from the lizard itself and would like to clear his name with the doctors at the hospital.
We should know the exact strain by tomorrow, which will help tremendously.
I appreciate any insight people have. I've never dealt with salmonella before, and my poor guy is pretty sick from it. I want to make sure this doesn't happen again!

[smy_749]

Sorry to hear that, hope he makes a speedy recovery. As for where it came from, trying your hardest when it comes to 'germs' and staying away from bacteria usually isn't enough. It really hard honestly. My guesses would have been chicken or the sav too, try not to think about the how, because you already try your hardest and thinking of how is no benefit really. Just keep doing your best to keep everything away and hope he doesnt get unlucky a second time.

[formica]

what about his school? any other kids become ill? inccorectly cooked chicken and eggs are the most common source - that said, it is a public health issue if any of the chicken products being used contain salmonella, cooking is an extra precaution, but they should not contain salmonella in the first place (well i'm assuming the same rules apply to Canada as the UK)


might be worth getting toothless checked with the vet either way (faeces/urate test i think? culd be wrong), will also give you the oppertunity to match the strain if its present - if its shown that it isnt toothless, then you need to contact the school, and they need to contact their suppliers, its a pretty big deal if thats the source


get yourself an anti-bactirial hand wash gel of some kind, theres lots to choose from, use it on your hands, and a spray for things like door handles is a good precaution to

[Toothless]

Getting a fecal from Toothless will be hard as he almost always poos in his water. Is there another way to test for it?
I'd like to find out the source if possible just so I can make sure he doesn't become reinfected. I know it may be impossible to pin-point, but I'm going to try my hardest.
We're back into the hospital again for a re-check this morning...

[Lankyrob]

I am fairly sure That salmonella is "non spore forming" so can only be caught through direct contact. It has been a few years since i looked at it when we first got snakes as we were concerned about my daughter.

[infernalis]

First of all, before widespread panic sets in. There are more than one strain of the bacteria that cause Salmonella infection.

Furthermore, most of us come into contact with these bacterium on a regular basis without even as much as an itch or watery eye.

Salmonella is such a common bacteria that it can be found on dog poop, toads, cat litter, thawing meat, etc...

Before you allow some quack to blame it on toothless, Ask yourself this.. Is it possible that you or a neighbor were thawing out some meat or left some egg shells out where a fly could have walked on it's surface and then later walked on your son, or a sippy cup, spoon, bowl, etc.. transmitting it from point A to point B?

Most of us have good solid immunities and could lick raw chicken all day without a problem, Children and the elderly are at the most risk, and children make mud pies, eat bugs and kiss frogs.

Don't be so quick to pin it on the lizard.

[formica]

meat should not contain salmonella, cooking it properly is only a precaution, but if there is salmonella in any meat or eggs, then someone at the farm or processing factories has not been doing their job properly - food found to containing salmonella should not ever make it to the shops - so unfortunetly, odds are, it is the lizard - thats not to say that salmonella isnt found in meat/eggs sometimes, but when it is, it results in a massive recall of the product and potential legal action by local/national government against the producer

[infernalis]

Formica you do raise a valid point, who's going to recall dog poop and bird crap?

I'm just trying to look at all points here.

[B_Aller]

Humans are also the #1 carrier and transmitter of salmonella, so don't rule out human contact. I don't have kids but I do know that all kids are vectors for disease :) those school yards are crawling with germs...come to think of it I think I'll start washing my hands after handling kids... or just run screaming!
;)

[formica]

typhoid infections, the type carried by humans, are pretty rare in the west - but i guess if any ones going to pick it up or spread it, its kids who havent got the hang of toilet hygiene yet

[Toothless]

Thank you all for the replies. I never realized how common salmonella bacteria is and how easy it is to catch. Makes me feel a bit better that it may not have been my fault he got it. Its awful hearing the little one scream in pain. He seems to be a bit better today though- just have to watch for dehydration.

We're still waiting for the results on what strain it is. The doctor said he'd call me tomorrow and let me know.

[alessia55]

Sorry to hear about your son. Wayne raised some valid points. Keep us posted on your kid's condition and let us know if you do find out the cause.

[smy_749]

This thread is going to result in a few new germaphobes.

[Toothless]

I certainly hope I don't discourage people from getting reptiles with my post! I wasn't as cautious with my care until the baby came as the we-ones are more subseptible. I think anyone with a baby SHOULD be viligiant with hygiene around reptiles, but not to the point of being obsessive.
The reason I created this thread was to get some insight on possible causes, and if it did come from Toothless, to change my care routine and prevent it from happening again. I hope anyone who reads this post doesn't become overly paranoid about bacteria.

Thank you all for the concern. Its day 5 now, and apparently symptoms usually go away around this time even without treatment so hopeing he wakes up a much happier boy! Started coughing yesterday, but the hospital thinks he may have just picked up a cold while at the hospital. Can't wait for those results to come in.

[Toothless]

Just an update...
The little one's feeling a bit better today, which is great.
The hospital called this morning and said they won't have the specific strain until later today, but that its a strain that's resistant to antibiotics so they prescribed me a different kind. The information I've been able to find does not state that the salmonella bacteria from reptiles is resistant to antibiotics- does anyone have any more information on if this is true?
They also scheduled me for an appointment with infectious diseases to try and determine the cause- apparently they investigate all cases of salmonella in infants.
I was also able to find quite a few posts by people claiming their children got salmonella off the same brand of formula I've been using- I don't think any of it was proven, but its something I'm looking into as well. I had just opened the container right before he got sick, and saved it just in case. I really hope its not from that though, as that would mean more children are at risk.

[formica]

Just an update...
The little one's feeling a bit better today, which is great.
The hospital called this morning and said they won't have the specific strain until later today, but that its a strain that's resistant to antibiotics so they prescribed me a different kind. The information I've been able to find does not state that the salmonella bacteria from reptiles is resistant to antibiotics- does anyone have any more information on if this is true?
They also scheduled me for an appointment with infectious diseases to try and determine the cause- apparently they investigate all cases of salmonella in infants.
I was also able to find quite a few posts by people claiming their children got salmonella off the same brand of formula I've been using- I don't think any of it was proven, but its something I'm looking into as well. I had just opened the container right before he got sick, and saved it just in case. I really hope its not from that though, as that would mean more children are at risk.

good to hear he's on the mend!

chances are, if its the formula, the company have already done a recall, check their website and see if the serial number and date matches any of their recalled units


hmm its a bit odd that they cant tell you the strain, but do know its resistant, did they say they know for sure, or are changing the antibiotics to be safe? Africa is one of the sources of resistant salmonella - hopefully u'll know for sure soon

[MDT]

So it sounds like what you are waiting for is called a "culture and sensitivity". It is not a "strain" of Salmonella, just the susceptibility of the bacteria (in this case, Salmonella) being killed by a certain antibiotic. The particular "strain" of the bacteria is done by DNA typing, usually from PCR (polymerase chain chain reaction). The sensitivity you are awaiting will tell you (as you mentioned) if you are on the appropriate antibiotics. Often times the initial course of antibiotics may need changing once the sensitivity is available. Many times we start a patient on antibiotics bases on what "should work" (empirically), but that may need "fine tuning" once the testing is completed.

If you were to have the DNA typing of the Salmonella done (which could be done) you could also get a cloacal swab from your animal and have that cultured. If they isolated a Salmonella species, then DNA typing on that would tell you if the two strains are the same. You could then know whether it came from your animal or the germ laden kid next door :)

If you are going to see an Infectious Disease doc, they will likely perform these tests to exclude a number of sources.

[Toothless]

It was the sensitivity test that they got the results from today, which is why they switched the antibiotics- he was on amoxillian previously. You are right that the doctors prescribed it while they were waiting to see what antibiotic would work best :).
The test I'm waiting for apparently will be able to tell if it was from the lizard or not, but will not tell us a definate source.

[Toothless]

good to hear he's on the mend!

chances are, if its the formula, the company have already done a recall, check their website and see if the serial number and date matches any of their recalled units


hmm its a bit odd that they cant tell you the strain, but do know its resistant, did they say they know for sure, or are changing the antibiotics to be safe? Africa is one of the sources of resistant salmonella - hopefully u'll know for sure soon
I've looked at the supplier's website for re-calls, but there hasn't been any since last year. I'd still feel better having it tested though before feeding it again just to make sure. After reading up on the company though, I was shocked by the amount of recals the company's had in the past. I think I may be switching brands once he's allowed back on regular formula again.

[MDT]

The test I'm waiting for apparently will be able to tell if it was from the lizard or not, but will not tell us a definate source.

I'm not sure they *can* tell that without a cloacal swab from your lizard..What I mean is, they can say your child has Salmonella. What they cannot say definitively is where it came from without testing the suspected sources also. I can promise you that routine a microbiology test for the presence of a particular organism will not tell you the source.

[Toothless]

I'm not sure they *can* tell that without a cloacal swab from your lizard..What I mean is, they can say your child has Salmonella. What they cannot say definitively is where it came from without testing the suspected sources also. I can promise you that routine a microbiology test for the presence of a particular organism will not tell you the source.
The way they explained it to me at the hospital was that there is a specific...serotype I think they called it...that is found in lizards and is not as likely to be in foods. I understand what you mean though. Even if it shows it came from a reptile, there's no proof it came from Toothless without further testing. Hopefully when I have my appointment with the infectious diseases they can do some further testing for me.
I was a little PO'd at the hospital though when they called earlier. I asked if the test results had come in yet, and she said 'you must be anxious for the results so you can make a decision on what happens to your lizard'...What happens to my lizard??? Seriously!? Its not like I'm going to throw him outside or give him away if I find out the salmonella came from him. It it did, it just means I have to be more careful. I think its awful that they look down on anyone with children who own reptiles.

[MDT]

Keep us updated :) and yes, the ID doc will be able to really unravel this.

[infernalis]

I think its awful that they look down on anyone with children who own reptiles.

Me too. We actually had a CPS (Children's protective services) social worker arrive at our home once demanding to see my snakes. Someone reported us as "having dangerous reptiles in the same house as children"

It was marked as unfounded after the inspection, since the snakes were all in enclosures, all harmless colubrids and my kids are freaking teenagers.

Also had a recent visit from local code enforcement expressing concern for my roach colonies and rats as unsanitary.

He had an orange do not enter sign all filled out on arrival to tape on my front door. Once I showed him my Dubia & Madagascar Hissers and the rats in cages, he tore up the sign and apologized.

[Toothless]

It definately is frusterating! I'm half expecting someone to come inspect my place if it turns out to be Toothless. I can't see how anyone could have a problem with him. He doesn't come out of the enclosure, and the doors are high enough that my older son can't even reach in there- although he knows to stay away from the lizard anyways but kids will be kids so you can never be too careful lol.
I did read yesterday that gerbils can carry salmonella as well, so its possible they are the source... I'm planning to call the hospital this morning if I don't get a call soon.

[Toothless]

A little PO'd right now... I called my family doctor today to see if the test results had come back in- the hospital said they would call, but I assume they have been busy and when I called to ask they said to follow-up with my family doctor. She didn't know where the tests results were, and said she wouldn't be able to understand them anyways as she's not very familiar with salmonella other than how to treat it- which is understandable.
So now I play the waiting game until I can get in to see the IDC. Just a little frusterated that I won't be able to rule in/ out Toothless until I see the specialists.
Up side of this though is that I found a better formula that's half the price :) :). As soon as the little one's able to go back on regular formula, I plan to give them a try and see how he likes it. At least this unfortunate event came with an up side- I would never have considered buying anything else as I thought this brand was considered the 'best'. Will be nice if I can cut my formula bill in half :).

[MDT]

So, really that doesn't change anything (or surprise me :) )....The good thing is that the antibiotics have been changed, that your child is improving, and now you're gonna be (prob just from paranoia overkill) extra careful...That's ok, just don't get freaky about germs. Wash your hands, especially after you handle the animals, keep eating surfaces cleaned with a good surface cleaner. If your kiddo is in day care, your culprit is most likely there quite frankly. It's all good. You'll link up with ID soon and get things sorted out.

[Toothless]

Yes, the we-one is feeling much better now- which is all that really matters. He's eating like a pig and will catch back up weight-wise very quickly.
I'm going to have to tell myself to be patient for now hehe :).

[Toothless]

IDC called today (that was quick!!) :).
They said the type of salmonella was Heidelberg. I have to fill out a bunch of forms tomorrow, but tonight she wants me to sit down and come up with potential sources.
Not sure is Heidelberg is associated with reptiles or not??? Guess its time to hit Google :).

[thinkbig317]

I believe heidelberg is from raw meats. Dont quote me though....

[thinkbig317]

Glad your boy is doing better by the way! Broke my heart when i first read this....��

[Zoo Nanny]

I'm happy to read that your little one is doing better. A very nasty sickness.
Heidelberg is found frequently with poultry and eggs. I was reading about it recently and was surprised to find out that the bacteria is able to survive for weeks outside of a host and can also be found in dust.

[Toothless]

Thanks for the info everyone :).
I did some reading as well and from what I've read its most commonly found in poultry and commercial/ raw cat and dog food. I wasn't able to find anything linking that particular 'type' to reptiles.
I'm thinking the most likely sources were either the frozen chicks for the lizard, the formula (hope not), or the cat's food. The cats don't seem sick at all though... I'd wager a guess that it came from the chicks.
We didn't eat eggs, chicken, beef etc. at all the week before and were house-ridden for 3 days before he got sick as my older son had the flu. Whatever the source is, it definately came from inside the house.

The IDC said they don't do testing, but is reporting the incident to the FDA so they can look into the formula and make sure its not contaminated. I'm going to see if the Agriculture College in the area can test the chicks. May seem like I'm over-analyzing everything, but it would make me feel better to know where it came from :).
I'm definately learning alot about salmonella lol! All I knew before was that you could get it from meat/ reptiles and to wash your hands and cook meat good.

[Toothless]

I'm happy to read that your little one is doing better. A very nasty sickness.
Heidelberg is found frequently with poultry and eggs. I was reading about it recently and was surprised to find out that the bacteria is able to survive for weeks outside of a host and can also be found in dust.

Thanks for that :). We did have eggs a few weeks ago, but the counter was washed afterwards- still a possible source though. I've read its found in the shells. Also read about the dust thing...very interesting.

[MDT]

You can call up the lab tech that implied you should get rid of your reptiles and say "bite me" :)

[Toothless]

BAHA!! If I wasn't so non-confrontational I probably would. The hub says I'm too much of a push-over. lol

After thinking a bit more, should the chicks be reported to the FDA as well? They were purchased as 'meat birds' for human consumption. I know the CDC reports outbreaks in live chickens.

[Starbuck]

it could be the cat food, most animals have stronger GI immunity than humans do, let alone a baby. You might want to keep that on the table as a potential source.

[Pirarucu]

it could be the cat food, most animals have stronger GI immunity than humans do, let alone a baby. You might want to keep that on the table as a potential source.This. Just because the cats aren't sick doesn't mean it isn't there.

[MDT]

This. Just because the cats aren't sick doesn't mean it isn't there.

Yes, def....the animal is the carrier, the bacteria is not pathogenic to them. People?.....Now that's where the bloody diarrhea comes into play.

[Toothless]

I did save some of the cat's food once I found out it was a possible source :). I figured they would be sick if it was in the food- thank you guys for the clarification.