Dreaming of Ackies!

[Lankyrob]

My dream for a while now has been to create a massive (14x14x8 feet) enviroment for a couple of savs but recently i have been looking at things realistically with my health and decided that savs are off the list and if circumstances allow it we are going to have a smaller collection with large environments.

So if i am looking at an enclosure that is 8x3x4 foot long would i be safe having two or more ackies living together? We had one a few years back in a 4x2x2 and i would never use that small an enclosure again even for jsut one lizard.

Just dreaming and wondering what the enclosure should be for two or more??

[infernalis]

as big as you can go mate. no such thing as too big.

Imagine a cage that took up a whole wall with just a couple Ackies in it... Would be awesome for observation.

[smy_749]

you could probably put 5 or 6 ackies in an 8 foot enclosure. Buy a few extra, find out which are females which are males and give away a couple till you have a 1.2 pair with more than enough room. Only problem in an enclosure that big is going to be digging for eggs.

[B_Aller]

Bigger is always better, especially with the little guys.
Here's how I kept ackies when I did, 4 x 4 x 8long, kept 4-6 animals in each enclosure, they bred, laid and hatched in the cage, pretty cool.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/benaller/DSCF3410.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/benaller/media/DSCF3410.jpg.html)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/benaller/DSCF3217.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/benaller/media/DSCF3217.jpg.html)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/benaller/DSCF3314.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/benaller/media/DSCF3314.jpg.html)

[nepoez]

Why do I always read about people digging up eggs? Why not everyone just let the eggs hatch in the cage?

[Mikoh4792]

How do you clean that enclosure? Even with bio active substrate what happens when feces or urine gets stuck in crevices in between the rocks and other large objects?

[smy_749]

Ben, they didn't eat the babies?

[B_Aller]

Why do I always read about people digging up eggs? Why not everyone just let the eggs hatch in the cage?

Because it's very hard to provide the right conditions for the entire length of incubation. Most varanids have a 4-12 month incubation period, that's a long time for things to go wrong. Artificial incubation is just much more consistent.
I design my enclosures to allow multiple nesting options that are as easily accessible as possible to prejudice nesting. For most of my animals I can dig right to their nests in no time....if I've been paying attention.

[smy_749]

Why do I always read about people digging up eggs? Why not everyone just let the eggs hatch in the cage?

Its not as effective hatch rate wise, occassionally from what I've read, the eggs may get eaten or the babies but that is speculative and some people say its only due to improper conditions that parents would eat their own young. Mostly its due to hatch rates and being able to know how many babies you are supposed to have where as if they are roaming around in the enclosure you won't know if you've gotten them all or not.

[B_Aller]

How do you clean that enclosure? Even with bio active substrate what happens when feces or urine gets stuck in crevices in between the rocks and other large objects?

Super easy to keep clean, it's ALL about drainage. I design the bottom of my enclosures to allow maximum drainage. This along with a bio active substrate, spot cleaning and the weekly or bi-weekly hose down keeps it nice and clean, smelling good.

[B_Aller]

Ben, they didn't eat the babies?

Not that I found any evidence of. Most of the clutches were recovered and incubated artificially but with that many animals you miss stuff. I found the nest after they hatched and my guess is 2 out of 8 or so hatched. There were several d.i.e.
I haven't experienced cage mates eating anything but infertile or scattered eggs. Never had a male dig up a healthy nest. Although sometimes I do separate males when the females get aggressive.

[smy_749]

Not that I found any evidence of. Most of the clutches were recovered and incubated artificially but with that many animals you miss stuff. I found the nest after they hatched and my guess is 2 out of 8 or so hatched. There were several d.i.e.
I haven't experienced cage mates eating anything but infertile or scattered eggs. Never had a male dig up a healthy nest. Although sometimes I do separate males when the females get aggressive.

Thanks for the info and awesome setup. Your gonna drive Rob nuts :P

[Lankyrob]

Bigger is always better, especially with the little guys.
Here's how I kept ackies when I did, 4 x 4 x 8long, kept 4-6 animals in each enclosure, they bred, laid and hatched in the cage, pretty cool.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/benaller/DSCF3410.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/benaller/media/DSCF3410.jpg.html)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/benaller/DSCF3217.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/benaller/media/DSCF3217.jpg.html)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/benaller/DSCF3314.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/benaller/media/DSCF3314.jpg.html)

That is freakin awesome!!! and exactly the sort of thing i was thinking of! Everything as "natural" an environment as possible and just let them get on with living their lives :). If i ever get the opportunity i may be calling on you for some info and advice if that is ok?

[B_Aller]

That is freakin awesome!!! and exactly the sort of thing i was thinking of! Everything as "natural" an environment as possible and just let them get on with living their lives :). If i ever get the opportunity i may be calling on you for some info and advice if that is ok?

Thanks Rob, of course, I'd be happy to help, might not share all my trade secrets :) but will certainly do what I can to help point you in the right direction.
Best

[nepoez]

If I only had enough room for 2 savs but I only have 8x4x4 so I can't breed... Would be really rewarding...

[Lankyrob]

If you get pre-sexed animals how many of one sex could be kept together providing enough space was given?

So in an 8x4x4

Or

10x4x4?

Jsut curious if we didnt want breeding to occur coud more be kept safely?

[murrindindi]

If you get pre-sexed animals how many of one sex could be kept together providing enough space was given?

So in an 8x4x4

Or

10x4x4?

Jsut curious if we didnt want breeding to occur coud more be kept safely?


Hi, this is just a question not a criticism; why would you want to keep a group of monitors together and deny them the opportunity to breed at some point?
Captive breeding is the MINIMUM we should be able to offer/achieve if keeping more than one animal, considering so few people are successful with many species, compared to the numbers of these animals (Varanids) that are in the hobby and taken from the wild, though obviously not V. acanthurus (legally, at least).

[Lankyrob]

Hi, this is just a question not a criticism; why would you want to keep a group of monitors together and deny them the opportunity to breed at some point?
Captive breeding is the MINIMUM we should be able to offer/achieve if keeping more than one animal, considering so few people are successful with many species, compared to the numbers of these animals (Varanids) that are in the hobby and taken from the wild, though obviously not V. acanthurus (legally, at least).

I have no want or need to increase the number of animals being kept in sub par conditions or being passed around like collecting cards.

[murrindindi]

I have no want or need to increase the number of animals being kept in sub par conditions or being passed around like collecting cards.

In that case I hope you decide not to get a group of monitors of the same species (that`s not sarcasm, just my personal opinion). ;)

[Lankyrob]

In that case I hope you decide not to get a group of monitors of the same species (that`s not sarcasm, just my personal opinion). ;)

Can you explain why?

[Mikoh4792]

If you keep them together won't they breed anyways? Or do you need to brumate them?

[smy_749]

Can you explain why?

I think he was hinting at the fact that they are difficult to sex, and extremely prolific so getting a group, you will inevitably end up with some babies.

[smy_749]

If you keep them together won't they breed anyways? Or do you need to brumate them?

You don't need to brumate. Just 'heat em and feed em' as a certain keeper would say...

[Pirarucu]

In that case I hope you decide not to get a group of monitors of the same species (that`s not sarcasm, just my personal opinion). ;)Out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind this? Even if they were not able to breed, they would be no worse off than an animal kept alone. Multiple animals sharing the enclosure would still allow many other natural behaviors and provide a lot of mental stimulation that they would not otherwise have, even without the ability to breed.

[Lankyrob]

Out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind this? Even if they were not able to breed, they would be no worse off than an animal kept alone. Multiple animals sharing the enclosure would still allow many other natural behaviors and provide a lot of mental stimulation that they would not otherwise have, even without the ability to breed.

This ^^^^ :D

[B_Aller]

Just let em breed and lay in the cage and don't dig up the eggs. 9 times out of 10 you'll not get any babies. I've frozen almost every clutch I've gotten for the last 6 years or so, just cause I don't want to deal with selling. Do have some in the incubator going now though.

[Lankyrob]

In that case I hope you decide not to get a group of monitors of the same species (that`s not sarcasm, just my personal opinion). ;)

Bumping the thread to see if we get an explanation as to why? :)

[murrindindi]

Bumping the thread to see if we get an explanation as to why? :)


Hi again, I actually believe that you would make a fine keeper, you clearly want to find out as much as possible before acquiring the animals (that`s something of a novelty much of the time) and do the best you can "up to a point".
If these were Bearded dragons or similar, where thousands upon thousands are being bred I could understand your reluctance to want to add to those numbers, the fact is that very FEW people worlwide are successfully breeding Varanids of any species over long periods, therefore cbb animals can be extremely difficul to obtain.
From what I see around the forums, V. acanthurus is in quite high demand (there are waiting lists for prospective buyers), and the relatively high prices compared to wild caught species such as Savannah, Nile, etc seems likely to put off most "impulse" buyers.
I think you would learn so much about these animals if you successfully bred them (even once), you could pass on the knowledge and experienced gained to others.
I think it`s a little strange that you would encourage other people to breed them so you can buy them and deliberatley not try?
I hope I explained that clearly, it`s obviously YOUR decision! :)

[Lankyrob]

Hi again, I actually believe that you would make a fine keeper, you clearly want to find out as much as possible before acquiring the animals (that`s something of a novelty much of the time) and do the best you can "up to a point".
If these were Bearded dragons or similar, where thousands upon thousands are being bred I could understand your reluctance to want to add to those numbers, the fact is that very FEW people worlwide are successfully breeding Varanids of any species over long periods, therefore cbb animals can be extremely difficul to obtain.
From what I see around the forums, V. acanthurus is in quite high demand (there are waiting lists for prospective buyers), and the relatively high prices compared to wild caught species such as Savannah, Nile, etc seems likely to put off most "impulse" buyers.
I think you would learn so much about these animals if you successfully bred them (even once), you could pass on the knowledge and experienced gained to others.
I think it`s a little strange that you would encourage other people to breed them so you can buy them and deliberatley not try?
I hope I explained that clearly, it`s obviously YOUR decision! :)

Thank you, i understand your view now.

My main restraint in this hobby is my health, i habe multiple disabilities that restrict me physically. Having a setup that is bioactive and needs minimal maintenance is the only way i can possible keep any monitor species. In my head breeding and then incubating the eggs, caring for teh hatchlings and then finding buyers taht will look after them properly is too much for me to manage without lessening the level of care that all of the animals will receive.

If it is a case of letting them do their business naturally and leaving the eggs to incubate naturally and then just separating the hatchlings for selling then this wouldnt be such an issue.