Acrylic - poisonous fumes?

[formica]

I'm looking at some options to build a new enclosure for my CRB in a few months, ive found a great source for Acrylic, which would reduce the labour and cost significantly compared to glass, but a quick scan of google has brought up the issue of poisonous fumes coming from Acrylic when heated, i've only heard of this in relation to PVC before now, and cant find much about the issue - does anyone have any more info?

The enclosure would never be heated to higher than 31C via UTH and a pulse thermostat @ the basking area, I find it a bit difficult to believe that dangerous fumes would be released at that temp?

[LarryS]

My guess is that this pertains only to the amount heat used for bending/cutting or higher. This is also true of PVC.

The best bet is to have good ventilation when working with any product and read the MSDS before hand.

Even an RHP isn't going to generate the heat required to reach the melting point of PVC for example which is approx 300 degrees. The surface temp on my heat panels never exceeded 195 degrees.

Acrylic makes an excellent herp enclosure if used properly.

[formica]

that is my guess too, i wont be doing any heating to work with it, just cementing and drilling ready cut pieces

do you know if there is a particular type of PVC that is used for enclosures? The only one ive found that is a reasonable price is something called Foam PVC, but I cant find much info on what it actually is, its allot cheaper than Acrylic, but i dont know if it is as strong or useable

[LarryS]

Most of the PVC caging is an expanded PVC sheet product.

It is very easy to work with.

I'm not sure where you would find it in your neck of the woods, but would start by searching plastic supply or even a sign shop.

[formica]

lost count of the number of emails i sent, but I finally found it, hopefully will have it within 7 days, PVC structure with Acrylic front door, LED strip lighting and heat cable, just need to find some good hinges - quite excited about the possibilities of working with PVC, i love wooden enclosures for the same reason, but I'm sick of trying to maintain high humidity without the damn things falling to pieces lol

thanks for ya help!

[formica]

planning on getting some Weldon 40, seems like the best choice for joining acrylic to PVC, and PVC to PVC?

[sharthun]

Cool! Keep us posted! I'm very interested!:cool:

[LarryS]

Great!

I have used the weld on 40 as well as other weld on products and they work very well. I do advise testing you're methods with any of these adhesives though, some need a considerable amount of clamping pressure to be effective on PVC. I have also found that more adhesive is better than less to a degree, until it just becomes messy. Again on the PVC only. Acrylic is much easier to glue as long as you have a good edge IMO.

I have sources for hinges and latches etc. here in the states, let me know if I can help.

LED lighting is the way to go, looks "cool" too!

Take lots of pics!

[formica]

thanks for the info - i've used acrylic to build small enclosures before, unheated for ant colonies, I was hoping that PVC would be as simple as that to bond, but it sounds like maybe not lol I'll get some off cuts in to practice with first!

the datasheet for Weldon 40 says it will hold after 10minutes, and be strong enough to work with after an hour, in your experience is that the case? the design I have for the door requires everything to be mm perfect, so theres no room for movement once ive glued everything - might have to rethink that if theres a chance of movement beyond 10minutes

any links to hinges and latches would be great, if just to check out what is available so i can match it up to UK stock - at the moment im looking at acrylic hinges, to save having to drill more holes than i need, its a shame these kind of speciality items arent easily available in DIY shops here, because it would be good to actually see and hold these things before buying them


I'll try and take pics of each stage and post a diary up! first viv will be a small one, 600x400x400mm, didnt want to spend too much money trying to build with a matirial ive not used before, if it works well i'm gong to replace all my enclosures with it, i'm tired of lugging around glass and wood!

[LarryS]

I don't want to discourage you because PVCX really is great to work with. If you do a few practice glue ups to get the feel for it you should be fine.

I have found that most of these plastic adhesives will form a bond within the ten minute spec, but I never put much pressure on a glue up until it has cured overnight. The key as I mentioned is to make sure you have enough adhesive and use adequate clamping. Again this is for PVC.

What did you have in mind for latches?

[formica]

I was thinking of using a single lockable latch in the middle

something like the bottom one, so I can keep the hole as small as possible: (but im going to find something better quality, the quality of the keys could be better and doesnt give me much confidence in the actual lock, esp in a high humidity enviroment)

http://www.hardware.com.hk/show%20room/cabinet%20lock.jpeg

and 2 neodymium magnet latches on each side (4 in total)

i'm using 6mm acrylic, so i dont think i need anything stronger than the lock to hold the door in, but I could easily add twist catches too it if needs be - this will be my first build using a swing door, ive only ever built open top and slide door, so any advice appriciated!


as for the hinges, no idea yet, only seen a few on ebay, and they dont look anywhere near good enough quality for what I want

[Mikoh4792]

How about the aluminum adhesive lock? Most of the lock will not make contact with the inside and I think it's rust-free too. I forgot the brand of the lock but it's pretty popular.

[formica]

How about the aluminum adhesive lock? Most of the lock will not make contact with the inside and I think it's rust-free too. I forgot the brand of the lock but it's pretty popular.

do you mean a lock which has an adhesive to stick it to the door, or is it something else? I've seen some which come with adhesive to stick it straight on, not sure I want to trust that tho, as im building the viv myself I can make a hole to fit a lock without to much fuss

aluminum does sound like a good idea in terms of preventing corrosion, i found some nice chrome and steel (surgical type steel) latches aswell, i'll keep looking til find the nicest looking one

[Mikoh4792]

do you mean a lock which has an adhesive to stick it to the door, or is it something else? I've seen some which come with adhesive to stick it straight on, not sure I want to trust that tho, as im building the viv myself I can make a hole to fit a lock without to much fuss

aluminum does sound like a good idea in terms of preventing corrosion, i found some nice chrome and steel (surgical type steel) latches aswell, i'll keep looking til find the nicest looking one

Yes that's the one. I have one of those and the adhesive seems very strong.

[LarryS]

formica I pm'd you some links to hinges and latches, hope it helps.

[formica]

all the parts ordered now, looks like i'll have everything by the 18th :)

decided to try some automatic push-latches, like those used on some cabinet doors, gentle push and it opens, although the one I picked it more heavy duty (for loft space doors), means no handle on the outside which leaves the front window/door as clear as possible - and hopefully secure...

thanks for the hinge links LarryS, I found the same brand here in the UK in a few shops, only one shop had the hexagonal counter sink holes and wanted to charge silly amounts in postage, which is a shame, but got a nice pair anyway!

I still havent settled on a cement to use, Weldon 725 may be the best choice, as i no longer need to glue acrylic to pvc, its what is recommended by the manufacturer for upto 16mm joints (mine are 10mm) - going to check some shops and try and avoid £20 postage

last thing, i was hoping 1W of LED's leave my voltage regulator pretty cool, but its hitting 60C, so thats not safe to install inside the enclosure with the PVC melt temp of 65C, shame, would have been a nice clean solution - i guess i'll have to make an outboard enclosure for it

[formica]

3 way LED lighting: day(blue-white) | off | night(red)

[LarryS]

Did the plastic manufacturer give you that melting point? It seems very low.

A lot of the manufacturers don't put melting point on their MSDS, but since most expanded PVC is similar in chemical make up I reference Sintra's document.

http://www.substratum.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Sintra-MSDS.pdf

It states 350 degrees F which is more than twice what you are at.

None the less, it is always best to keep heat producing items that are not thermostatically controlled out of the cage.

Looking forward to build pics!

Oh edit to add: you may want to try conventional pvc pipe cement. I am guessing that would be available locally to you. I did some testing years back comparing it to some weld-on products and super glue for PVC sheet and it performed just as well. Only draw back is that it yellows over time. Only a problem on white cages.

[formica]

the data sheet for my brand says 65C for heating to bend etc, the melting point was higher, but if any structural changes are going to occur at close to 65C then I dont want to risk anything close to that - and I cant find out what the HCL emissions are at 65C, which is another concern - heat mat will be pulsed at 32C (dont really want a 60C heat source in the enclosure anyway lol)

[LarryS]

I agree, better to be as safe as possible!

[Perez Turner]

I don't want to discourage you because PVCX really is great to work with. If you do a few practice glue ups to get the feel for it you should be fine.

I have found that most of these plastic adhesives will form a bond within the ten minute spec, but I never put much pressure on a glue up until it has cured overnight. The key as I mentioned is to make sure you have enough adhesive and use adequate clamping. Again this is for PVC.

What did you have in mind for latches?

Impressive. Actually I was searching the solution what you mentioned in detail and it added my knowledge to do work according to your instructions. Thanks for sharing worthy knowledge.

[formica]

a strange thing has come up since finishing my build, the areas where the cement left a visible area inside the enclosure, seems to have reacted with either the water or the light, turning the area a bit white/lighter - has anyone seen this before?

i've been stablising the enclosure ahead of planting up, it'll be another month before my CRB goes into the enclosure - but i'm wondering if anyone has come across this issue before? could this be a HCL-water reaction, or something else? the cement should have been well cured long before I started humidifying the enclosure, so its a bit strange tbh...

I think my next build will be done with some kind of glue sealant (GB Pro maybe) and screws, I think i'll get a better result than trying to cement them; another option could be welding, but I dont really like the idea of not having a solid join except on the outside of the joint

[LarryS]

Unfortunately some of these adhesives seem to blush in humid conditions. I live in Florida so have just learned to live with it. Maybe someday I can air condition my workshop!

It may also turn yellow over time, something to consider if working with white plastics.

[formica]

Unfortunately some of these adhesives seem to blush in humid conditions. I live in Florida so have just learned to live with it. Maybe someday I can air condition my workshop!

It may also turn yellow over time, something to consider if working with white plastics.

I used a cement, rather than an adhesive, technically, all that should now be between and around the joint, once cured, is PVC, well obviously not because its reacted lol maybe it just needs longer than 2 weeks - ah well, done now

[LarryS]

Sorry I meant solvent cement.

I have been searching for alternatives to the solvent cements, for the reasons above. Some of the products do state that they remain clear over time, but my method of construction could use adhesives.

There is one cement I used that remained clear but I can't remember right now the part #. It was a 3M product, medium/heavy body and it never blushed on me. I'll go back in my records and see if I can find it.

I have built several 12mm thick PVC cages with mechanical fasteners only. Use a counter sink/drill and then drive the fastener by hand to set the depth. I prefer SS fasteners. A sealant can be used on the inside if needed.

[formica]

I think thats what I'm going to do for the next one, using ''BondIt GB Pro'' I can apply a tiny amount on the edges, it takes 10minutes to skin, so no issues with it curing before i've got it all glued, then screw it together, and do a final seal inside, it works both as a super strength adhesive and a sealant, much like Silicone, but doesnt contain any silicone (comes in black, white and clear - it says that it will Yellow if it cures in the dark)

its a fantastic glue and sealant, used it in a few enclosures including my Sav's enclosure, despite his best efforts, his big monitor claws have been unable to unstick/damage it. it seems to have stuck and sealed the false cieling in my PVC enclosure very well, going to test it a bit more before doing it full scale, but it is designed to stick most things including PVC

only reason I used cement this time, was to have a single piece of plastic at the end, in the hope it would add something to the insulation and seal, but i dont think it adds enough to be worth the hassle of using

[LarryS]

I was wrong again. The 3M product I had used was an adhesive, not a cement.

I did some strength resting a few years ago with Oatey pipe cement, WeldOn 2007 and 3M Scotch Grip 4475

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/inkahootz/Adhesivetesting003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/inkahootz/Adhesivetesting007.jpg

I liked the way the 3M product went on, I apply the adhesive after the cage is assembled so aesthetics is important. It never blushed but I didn't keep any of the white cages long enough to know if it yellowed.

The 2007 is very thin and watery, bonded about the same as the 3M, but soaked into the joints leaving gaps.

The Oatey actually made the best bond, as you can see it broke next to the joint not on the joint itself like the others. It also is a heavy bodied cement so it lays on the seam and looks nice. I use this on all my cages, even though I apply it after assembly it still has held up extremely well.
With the cage parts in a routed groove and this cement on both sides it makes for a very strong and water tight assembly. It does blush when it is humid though.

Now.... I really like the looks of the BondIt GP Pro! It even comes in white and black. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a supplier here in the states. Dang it

I'm looking forward to your next build to see how it works.

[HoldenC]

Informative thread! Sorry to change the subject, but what kind of LED are you using?

[formica]

I was wrong again. The 3M product I had used was an adhesive, not a cement.

I did some strength resting a few years ago with Oatey pipe cement, WeldOn 2007 and 3M Scotch Grip 4475

I liked the way the 3M product went on, I apply the adhesive after the cage is assembled so aesthetics is important. It never blushed but I didn't keep any of the white cages long enough to know if it yellowed.

The 2007 is very thin and watery, bonded about the same as the 3M, but soaked into the joints leaving gaps.

The Oatey actually made the best bond, as you can see it broke next to the joint not on the joint itself like the others. It also is a heavy bodied cement so it lays on the seam and looks nice. I use this on all my cages, even though I apply it after assembly it still has held up extremely well.
With the cage parts in a routed groove and this cement on both sides it makes for a very strong and water tight assembly. It does blush when it is humid though.

Now.... I really like the looks of the BondIt GP Pro! It even comes in white and black. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a supplier here in the states. Dang it

I'm looking forward to your next build to see how it works.

nice bit of research there! I was thinking about the 2007 (and the 275), until I recieved the plastic and found that it was a fraction of a mm bent - looks like that was a good decision!

I think the Oakey stuff is the equivilant to the Everbond I used, perhaps a faster cure with the everbond

with the 3M, does that liquify and go inside the joint, or was it just a bond on the outside?


Informative thread! Sorry to change the subject, but what kind of LED are you using?

I used strips of 5050 and 3528 smd LED's, the 5050's are larger and brighter than the 3528, I picked the 3528 by mistake, they do a great job of lighting the enclosure, but as I use bioactive and live planted substrates, I really need the brightest light possible

do a search in ebay for strip LED, u'll find a wide variety - avoid the cheap Chinese voltage regulators however, they are a serious fire and electrocution risk, the led strips themselves can be bought as cheaply as you like, but buy the voltage regulator from a US company who is governed by your saftey standards - the cheap chinese ones are known also to have illegal and fake saftey stamps! some people have had the explode here in the UK

[HoldenC]

I used strips of 5050 and 3528 smd LED's, the 5050's are larger and brighter than the 3528, I picked the 3528 by mistake, they do a great job of lighting the enclosure, but as I use bioactive and live planted substrates, I really need the brightest light possible

do a search in ebay for strip LED, u'll find a wide variety - avoid the cheap Chinese voltage regulators however, they are a serious fire and electrocution risk, the led strips themselves can be bought as cheaply as you like, but buy the voltage regulator from a US company who is governed by your saftey standards - the cheap chinese ones are known also to have illegal and fake saftey stamps! some people have had the explode here in the UK
Excellent, thank you. Do the LED strips get hot to the touch? I wonder if waterproof tubes would work better for a nosy python.

[formica]

Excellent, thank you. Do the LED strips get hot to the touch? I wonder if waterproof tubes would work better for a nosy python.

the ones I bought heat to about 28-30C, with a room tempreture of 21C, the heat is very localized, less than a few mm

if the strips are waterproof, then they are safe, of course that doesnt mean your python cant get to the wires, so you do need to consider how you will keep him away from the wires, tubes could work, as long as he cant get inside the tube, or you could be careful about where you drill the hole, so that no wires are exposed inside the enclosure, or you could make a false cieling, this is my prefrence, because it helps to diffuse and spread the light, aswell as keeping curious reptiles, and the humidity, away from the electronics

[HoldenC]

the ones I bought heat to about 28-30C, with a room tempreture of 21C, the heat is very localized, less than a few mm

if the strips are waterproof, then they are safe, of course that doesnt mean your python cant get to the wires, so you do need to consider how you will keep him away from the wires, tubes could work, as long as he cant get inside the tube, or you could be careful about where you drill the hole, so that no wires are exposed inside the enclosure, or you could make a false cieling, this is my prefrence, because it helps to diffuse and spread the light, aswell as keeping curious reptiles, and the humidity, away from the electronics
Perfect. I want small efficient display lights that don't raise temps or zap the humidity, so LED is probably the way to go. I'm considering using a router to cut channels along the wood ceiling and inlaying the LED strips in a square pattern. That might look sharp and keep the wires hidden too.

Thanks again.