Carpet boyfriend

[Stewjoe]

I'm already thinking about what I should get as a boyfriend for my 75% Jungle Jag. I don't have any big or immediate plans for breeding as she is still years too young but I figured if I get another carpet I may as well get one I could pair up in the future if I choose to.
Just looking for some input/recommendations

What I'm considering follow.
100% High yellow Jungle (87.5% babies)
High % Jungles would be nice. Nice clean Jungle pattern.

100% Diamond (50% Diamond 37.5% Jungle)
It's been done so often, everyone pairs them with diamonds. I wouldn't mind a Diamond in my collection though.

50/50 Diamond Jungle (25% Diamond 62.5% Jungle)
50/50 are hard to find as most are jag siblings. Brighter than pure Jungle but scattered pattern.

Zebra Jag ( 87.5% Zebra Jag Jungles)
The beautiful thing about Zebras is that they are 100% and I don't want to spoil that.

I like the idea of keeping with high % Jungle as she is already as bright as Diamond/Jungles her age. I love Diamonds though and I only have room for one more carpet.


Her
http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy237/stewjoe98/DSC_2133_zps36499884.jpg

[snakeman879]

Why the gloves lol

[smy_749]

Dont breed jag x jag. Go with the 100% jungle if you can afford one with nice yellows.

[franks]

Dont breed jag x jag. Go with the 100% jungle if you can afford one with nice yellows.

This is very important. Never pair a Jag or even a Jag sibling with another Jag. The consequences can be lethal, but will most likely result in neurological problems.

[Stewjoe]

I know, I won't be breeding to another Jag. I'm leaning towards Jungle then maybe picking up a Diamond at a later date just to have.

[Mikoh4792]

This is very important. Never pair a Jag or even a Jag sibling with another Jag. The consequences can be lethal, but will most likely result in neurological problems.

Even if you breed a jag to a non jag, will the offspring still be "normal" specimens? Or are jags like carpet pythons with down syndrome?

[Terranaut]

Jag to jag ends with dead snakes.
I suggest you get a copy of "The Complete Carpet Python" if you plan to breed. There is plenty of info on breeding in there. You can avoid a few pitfalls if you read it through. Where in Canada are you? I may be able to help you out with some awesome jungles if your interested. If so PM me for details.
One of my yearling jungles
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/20130408_053005_zpsdd2ee7fb.jpg

[Stewjoe]

I live in AB a little over an hour NE of Calgary. There's not much for selection when it comes to carpets here. My female is only a year old so I won't be breeding in the near future, I just figured if I buy another I might as well get a future mate if I do choose to breed.

Is the book published online anywhere?

[Derek Roddy]

Jag to jag breedings are no big deal. All the Jag breedings I have done have been Jag to Jag.
They are not any more "neuro" than jags bred to normal Carpets.

Breeding jag to jag reduces the amount of sibs (which are fairly "undesirable" in the market place, at least here in the states they are. You can also get more Jags in a clutch.

As far as the dead Lucies....most don't even make it as far as hatching (meaning most eggs with lucies in them.... usually go bad before hatching, at least in all my attempts)

Some will also argue that Jag to jag breedings yield better/cleaner Jags but, I can't attest to that.
Although, I will say some of the best Jags I've seen have been from jag to Jag pairings.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw it out there that jags can be bred to other jags without any ill effects of the jag offspring.

D

[smy_749]

I didn't say it was a big deal, but being a heterozygous morph, theres not really a point (unless there is truth to what you say about jag x jag adults) to breeding and ending up with 25 percent dead babies. Then again, it increases your odds of getting a jag to 50/50... I just think since he has the jag gene already, that he should get a jungle and add something new to the mix. I don't advise diamonds just because I love the pure ones and hate most of the crosses, I think they ugly it up too much.

[Derek Roddy]

And, I didn't say you said it was a big deal. But most replies did say that Jag to Jag is a bad thing to do.

I simply said....it's not. Done it 5 times now...with no issues....nor 25% of them dead. The last time I bred them I got all jags from 19 eggs....2 failed to hatch.

The 25% dead snakes is way off base.

Yes, you will get a couple eggs that won't hatch with dead lucies in them but, you could just as easily lose a couple eggs from a Jag to Normal pairing as well.


D

[Stewjoe]

Another reason I am avoiding breeding jag to jag is you are not reducing the Coastal%. If I breed to a zebra I get a better hatch rate, half the siblings will be zebras making them more desirable and I will bring the % up to 88.

[Terranaut]

And, I didn't say you said it was a big deal. But most replies did say that Jag to Jag is a bad thing to do.

I simply said....it's not. Done it 5 times now...with no issues....nor 25% of them dead. The last time I bred them I got all jags from 19 eggs....2 failed to hatch.

The 25% dead snakes is way off base.

Yes, you will get a couple eggs that won't hatch with dead lucies in them but, you could just as easily lose a couple eggs from a Jag to Normal pairing as well.


D


Thanks for this. I love real world advice.

[smy_749]

Those are pretty crazy odds to get 100% jags. Did you buy a lottery ticket afterwards?

[marvelfreak]

Another reason I am avoiding breeding jag to jag is you are not reducing the Coastal%. If I breed to a zebra I get a better hatch rate, half the siblings will be zebras making them more desirable and I will bring the % up to 88.
Did you know the first jag were actually from a Coastal to a Irain Jaya? At the time the guy that produced them lied and say it was from and Coastal x Coastal because he didn't have the permits for keeping Irain Jaya at the time. The country he from as very strict reptile laws so he lied.

[HoldenC]

The market is flooded with jungles and diamond crosses. I'd go with the zebra jag.

[shaunyboy]

Jag to jag breedings are no big deal. All the Jag breedings I have done have been Jag to Jag.
They are not any more "neuro" than jags bred to normal Carpets.

Breeding jag to jag reduces the amount of sibs (which are fairly "undesirable" in the market place, at least here in the states they are. You can also get more Jags in a clutch.

As far as the dead Lucies....most don't even make it as far as hatching (meaning most eggs with lucies in them.... usually go bad before hatching, at least in all my attempts)

Some will also argue that Jag to jag breedings yield better/cleaner Jags but, I can't attest to that.
Although, I will say some of the best Jags I've seen have been from jag to Jag pairings.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw it out there that jags can be bred to other jags without any ill effects of the jag offspring.

D

i agree mate

if you can live with dead leucy's then jag x jag ain't a problem

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

The market is flooded with jungles and diamond crosses. I'd go with the zebra jag.

with a zebra jag x jungle jag,you may get a few dead leucys in the clutch

personally i would either go for a nice high yellow jungle or a high yellow zebra

cheers shaun

[Sublimeballs]

Did you know the first jag were actually from a Coastal to a Irain Jaya? At the time the guy that produced them lied and say it was from and Coastal x Coastal because he didn't have the permits for keeping Irain Jaya at the time. The country he from as very strict reptile laws so he lied.

Chuck I believe you've been given wrong information. The guy did lie and say that it was coastal x irain jaya, but he did so to corner the market on them, while others were trying to produce jags from coastal x irain jaya. I'm not 100% on this but I've read this from more then one source, and it sounds like something people would do to be the only one producing/profiting off of something new.

[shaunyboy]

Chuck I believe you've been given wrong information. The guy did lie and say that it was coastal x irain jaya, but he did so to corner the market on them, while others were trying to produce jags from coastal x irain jaya. I'm not 100% on this but I've read this from more then one source, and it sounds like something people would do to be the only one producing/profiting off of something new.

^^^^^
imo you have it the wrong way round mate.....

for years the lie was that it was a Coastal x Coastal that produced the first Jag,it only came out recently, that the truth was in fact a Coastal x Irian breeding produced the first Jag

Jan Eric Engel from Norway produced the first Jag from an Irian Jaya x Coastal.....

re the reason Jan lied

Norway has very strict licencing laws for snakes,and Jan did not have Irians on his permits..

hence the lie that it was Coastal x Coastal

cheers shaun

[Derek Roddy]

The original Jag pairing was from 2 coastal type animals. I had a musician friend who was very close to Jan Eric and even had animals from the original pairing in his collection.

The Coastal/IJ rumor was started by 1 of 2 very well known breeders here in the US when Jan Eric wouldn't sell them the original Jag.
They wanted to buy it and take full credit for it and because of who they were in the industry......were very offended when Jan Eric didn't go along with their plans.
They came back to the states pissed and told the entire herp community that the animal was a cross to discredit Jan.
I spoke with 1 of these people in the mid/late 90s and was told this by them as well.

Now, there are questionable things that Jan did breed....but, the original Jag wasn't one of them.

D

[Derek Roddy]

Something I don't understand is why everyone thinks that every Carpet morph comes from an IJ? I see it all over the place, Jags, Zebras, etc

What is so special about IJ blood that anything it touches produces a genetic mutation?

You don't make genetic mutations by breeding 2 sub species together.

D

[Sublimeballs]

The original Jag pairing was from 2 coastal type animals. I had a musician friend who was very close to Jan Eric and even had animals from the original pairing in his collection.

The Coastal/IJ rumor was started by 1 of 2 very well known breeders here in the US when Jan Eric wouldn't sell them the original Jag.
They wanted to buy it and take full credit for it and because of who they were in the industry......were very offended when Jan Eric didn't go along with their plans.
They came back to the states pissed and told the entire herp community that the animal was a cross to discredit Jan.
I spoke with 1 of these people in the mid/late 90s and was told this by them as well.

Now, there are questionable things that Jan did breed....but, the original Jag wasn't one of them.

D

This is what I've read from several sources; Obviously not the part about haveing a good friend that knew Jan Eric. It's terrible that there is so much uncertainty about the local origins of the jag mutation. I bought a pure coastal female as to not mix bloodlines, to keep the genetics pure.

[shaunyboy]

The original Jag pairing was from 2 coastal type animals. I had a musician friend who was very close to Jan Eric and even had animals from the original pairing in his collection.

The Coastal/IJ rumor was started by 1 of 2 very well known breeders here in the US when Jan Eric wouldn't sell them the original Jag.
They wanted to buy it and take full credit for it and because of who they were in the industry......were very offended when Jan Eric didn't go along with their plans.
They came back to the states pissed and told the entire herp community that the animal was a cross to discredit Jan.
I spoke with 1 of these people in the mid/late 90s and was told this by them as well.

Now, there are questionable things that Jan did breed....but, the original Jag wasn't one of them.

D

Derek many thanks for clearing up the Jag sire and Dam rumours,its good to get reliable info from someone who spoke to one of the two guys, that were responsible for said rumours

re Irian blood
i have no idea why a lot of people assume a lot of morphs come from Irians mate ?


cheers shaun

[Derek Roddy]

My reasoning for it is very simple.

Take this animal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/Carpets/nicksquotjagquot.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derekroddy/media/Carpets/nicksquotjagquot.jpg.html)

It was produced in 2006 (or 07..can't remember) by Nick Mutton. Nice Jag right?



Wrong.

This animal is 100% completely coastal type animal that is part of a bloodline that 30 years old in the US.

OK so, if "pure coastal animals" (at least what is thought to be the "purest" coastal blood we have) can throw animals that look identical to the original Jags (And, when I say identical... that it fooled EVERY Jag breeder in the US and Europe at the time in thinking it was actually a jag)
Why does it make sense that the mutation came from an IJ? An animal in which I've never seen a good Jag look a like produced.

Why also do the IJ Jags have a very unique look and traits about them that wasn't in the first Jags produced? You can clearly see an IJ Jag out of other non IJ Jags.

Also, there is an entire population of Coastal animals in Australia known as the "prossies" and, these animals have traits like natural occurring Jags. I've looked at 1000's of import IJs over the years coming into strickley reptiles, Ben Seigels, under ground reptiles and I've never seen one that was "jag like"...not to the point that it would fool anybody. Not like some of the coastal animals I've seen.

Plus, body structure of the original, the massive clutches those first Jags brought into the US had...(25+ eggs)

Lots of evidence lines up that they were indeed from Coastal type animal.

D

[Sublimeballs]

Thanks Derek, when my females up to size I'm planning on producing some jags. That's the reason I got a coastal female(and I'm one of the few that like coastals over other locals) as I'm not a fan of dirtying up the bloodlines so to speak.

[Derek Roddy]

I'm not a fan of dirtying up the bloodlines so to speak.

The bloodlines are already "dirtied up"....don't let anybody tell you different. They were doomed right from the start all over the world.

The first reason being that there was no separation in species when we first starting getting these lines. A carpet was a carpet....I remember this time (shows my age :( ) in our herp history.

As we started to figured out that a "jungle" was a black and yellow animal...and a "coastal" was everything else....that added further confusion (as a lot of non yellow animals that were jungle forms were labeled "coastals")
My Atherton line comes to mind.... jungle form animals that keepers think are coastal form.

Having been to Aussie over a half dozen times, seen some animals in the bush and a lot of captives...I can tell you that you don't see "coastals" with solid black skull and crossbone (jungle type) head patterns outside of overhead coverage areas...which is when you start to get close to "jungle" territory. Especially if the the pattern that runs through the eye crosses the nostral scale and over the nose to the other side. That would be a jungle form.
Yes, you can see coastals with "head patterns" but, they won't look like jungle head patterns until you get to the habitat type where those animals exists.

D