Which pure carpets produced zebra morph?

[lash]

hi all, i am just curious to how the zebra morph came into existence? was it jungles or irian jaya's??,
thanks in advance lash

[Donnie]

Zebra is a jungle morph

[shaunyboy]

Zebra is a jungle morph

^^^^^
this

Paul Harris of UK Pythons,who was based in Germany at the time, produced the first Zebra morph from a Jungle x Jungle pairing

re Zebra's
as far as i know they don't have a high success of a hatch rate,a lot of them die in the egg

also most of the ones that do hatch,have some kinking issues

cheers shaun

[Aaron_S]

I was just going to say the het zebra to het zebra ones...

[franks]

Yes, the only Irian Jaya morph is the granite morph. This morph too, has its problems. It was so inbred that the guy who found the granite morph ended up giving up on granites entirely. Many will have problems, or not reproduce. Currently, Nick Mutton is in the process of taking healthy granites with some wild-caught blood and breeding them to Irian Jayas who are completely wild caught in the hopes that he can strengthen the bloodlines and curtail inbreeding. The problem is that these morphs are expensive and take a while to raise to sexual maturity, so hobbyists and breeders alike are constantly rushing their snakes to breed and are breeding bloodlines back into their parents and siblings, weakening the genetics of the animals.

[Donnie]

I was just going to say the het zebra to het zebra ones...

It's a co-dominant morph ;)

(but I am sure you knew that anyway :))

[shaunyboy]

I was just going to say the het zebra to het zebra ones...

its a co dominant morph mate

i don't know if theres less issues with the hatchlings,when you out cross the Zebra Morph...

for example does crossing Diamond Zebra x Irian Zebra have less issues than.....

pure Jungle x Pure Zebra Jungle

sorry i don't have any proven facts regards Zebra Clutches

cheers shaun

[Donnie]

^^^^^
this

Paul Harris of UK Pythons,who was based in Germany at the time, produced the first Zebra morph from a Jungle x Jungle pairing

re Zebra's
as far as i know they don't have a high success of a hatch rate,a lot of them die in the egg

also most of the ones that do hatch,have some kinking issues

cheers shaun

Shaun, I take it you are referring to the super zebra's here rather than a normal zebra?

[shaunyboy]

Yes, the only Irian Jaya morph is the granite morph. This morph too, has its problems. It was so inbred that the guy who found the granite morph ended up giving up on granites entirely. Many will have problems, or not reproduce. Currently, Nick Mutton is in the process of taking healthy granites with some wild-caught blood and breeding them to Irian Jayas who are completely wild caught in the hopes that he can strengthen the bloodlines and curtail inbreeding. The problem is that these morphs are expensive and take a while to raise to sexual maturity, so hobbyists and breeders alike are constantly rushing their snakes to breed and are breeding bloodlines back into their parents and siblings, weakening the genetics of the animals.


what are the problems the Granite Morph was causing mate ?

any info would be appreciated

cheers shaun

[Aaron_S]

It's a co-dominant morph ;)

(but I am sure you knew that anyway :))

Nope! I don't know carpet morphs. I was making a joke more so:P

[franks]

what are the problems the Granite Morph was causing mate ?

any info would be appreciated

cheers shaun

According to Nick Mutton, infertility and very poor hatch-rates were the two biggest problems. He mentioned it is common for Granite IJ's to have permanent problems producing healthy hatchlings. He told me that for the last few years going, he put the word out offering to purchase any granites with a decent percentage of wild-caught blood for more than market value, regardless of sex or seeing the snake, right on the spot. He was unable to find one. Basically he ended up making his own. Apparently Piet Nuyten messed his own project up right from the beginning by inbreeding, resulting in most of the granite carpets available in the US (and in general) to be from the same base bloodlines. This year Nick is producing his first clutch of granites with some wild caught blood to IJ's with complete wild caught blood. I cannot really explain it any more than that- I have a fraction of the understanding he does on this subject and am really just trying to reiterate what I remember from a conversation.

[lash]

thank you very much guys for the information

[trueblue]

Pure jungles would be as rare as hens teeth over seas. How can everone be sure they are pure jungles?. Ive heard repeatedly that they arnt pure.?

[Terranaut]

I would never consider my Jungles pure. Not in Canada or the US anyway. That would only be a safe bet if you got it from someone who got the parents from Oz. I think Derek Roddy may have some of these.
Thanks for posting all the granite info. I was not aware of any of that.

[Derek Roddy]

I would never consider my Jungles pure. Not in Canada or the US anyway. That would only be a safe bet if you got it from someone who got the parents from Oz. I think Derek Roddy may have some of these.


There are lines that have been kept true from what was imported zoo lines. These zoo trades happened for a good many years before the AZA totally pulled funding to breed the Aussie species. During that time we certainly did get some "pure" stock and, there have been a few people dedicated to preserving those lines. Just like I've done with the Tableland animals I have. Had them since the late 80s and, haven't bred any other blood into them.

The black and yellow jungles I have are from the German line and Lazik.



Pure jungles would be as rare as hens teeth over seas. How can everone be sure they are pure jungles?. Ive heard repeatedly that they arnt pure.?

That's very true....they would be rare as most people care about what they see with their eyes and, are not concerned with "pure" or not.

But, I do believe the Zebra was hatched out of 2 jungle "type" animals.

I've heard stories of keepers claiming the were bred from the granite IJ but, that doesn't hold water as the Granite is simple recessive and the Zebra is Co dom.
Mutations don't change the way they work just because it is added to another species.
So yes....the Zebra did in fact come from 2 seemingly normal jungle type adults.

On a side note...I've always wondered why all the conspiracy theory keepers always bring up that these mutations come from the IJ? What's so special about the IJ that any mutation that comes out of carpets pythons is thought to come from them?
It makes more sense that mutations would come from genetically repressed genes....not fresh wild caught gene (as IJ have been brought in by the thousands over the years)

Even the Jag gene....keepers have been producing animals from known locale coastal animals that are almost identical to Jags.....(never seen an IJ that looked identical to a Jag)...yet say that it was produced by breeding a coastal and IJ together......how? How does breeding a coastal to an IJ make a genetically mutated gene?

The whole "Jag being an IJ rumor" was started by 1 of 2 very well known breeders here in the US because Jan would not sell them the original animal and, let them take full credit for it....which is what they wanted.
You see...these 2 people have very big egos (esp when it came to carpet pythons at the time) and, one of them was pissed at the time because they didn't get what they wanted from Jan based on their name in the business.

So, they return to the states and tell other keepers that the animal was a cross and nothing more.

D

[shaunyboy]

Shaun, I take it you are referring to the super zebra's here rather than a normal zebra?

i was reffering to the Super Zebras mate

.

re zebra (taken from precision reptiles site)

Zebra Carpet Python

The Zebra Carpet Python is the very first proven mutation, of the popular Jungle Carpet Python.

The first known Zebra was bred by Paul Harris back in 2003, and only five years later came about the hatching of the first Super-Zebra.

Produced in 2008, the Super Zebra is a patternless morph, which lacks any trace of black pigment. It was the result of a Zebra to Zebra breeding.

Being a Co-Dominant Morph, adding the Zebra as an ingredient to any morph combination will result in an endless supply of Carpet Pattern & Colour Mutations. Imagine the first Super Zebra Albino, an Axantic Super Zebra, or even the look of a Jaguar Zebra. The Zebra Carpet Python represents just one more reason for all Morelia Enthusiasts to be excited!



cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

I think getting lineage information is the best way to tell. I have lineage info on all my carpets so I'd say it's a safe bet to assume they are as pure as you can get without actually going out and getting a carpet from the wild.

[shaunyboy]

I think getting lineage information is the best way to tell. I have lineage info on all my carpets so I'd say it's a safe bet to assume they are as pure as you can get without actually going out and getting a carpet from the wild.

over here in the UK the lineage info on Carpets are just about non existant mate

there are very few sources with lineage on their carpets

i wish it was better

cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

over here in the UK the lineage info on Carpets are just about non existant mate

there are very few sources with lineage on their carpets

i wish it was better

cheers shaun

Aren't there dedicated breeders of "pure" lines in the UK as well? I know many big name breeders here in the US get some stock from europe from time to time.

[shaunyboy]

Aren't there dedicated breeders of "pure" lines in the UK as well? I know many big name breeders here in the US get some stock from europe from time to time.


there are folk who keep pure, but the lineage info in the UK is usually sketchy at best imo

that said,there are a small amount of private keepers with good lineage info,butusually they are very private people,when it comes to telling where their lines originated,due to being illegally exported back in the day

i know of one elderly gentleman, who has imo the only PURE Normal Darwins in the UK,he has had Darwins for decades,but will not reveal how he aquired them,unless your a very close friend of his...

i have no reason to doubt this gentleman, as he is one of the oldest,well known,and a very respected keeper here in the UK

re Europe
imo there is better lineage info from Europe, as they have legally and some would say sometimes illegally aquired Morelia straight from Australia (i have no proof of illegal activity)

it has been illegal to export reptiles from oz since 1982,so lineage info is hard to work out for the best part imo

cheers shaun