What are your thoughts on mixing localities/subspecies? [Archive]

Mikoh4792

08-25-13, 07:08 PM

For example mixing hog islands to crawl cayes, sorong gtp's to biak gtp's, jungle carpets to Irian jaya carpets.

Do you think we should keep localities more pure in the pet trade or do you think mixing them are good/okay?

TheZoo

08-25-13, 07:10 PM

I think if your going to do that you have to be honest and say this is a mutt im not opossed but I know alot of people will lie about it

Mikoh4792

08-25-13, 07:22 PM

I think if your going to do that you have to be honest and say this is a mutt im not opossed but I know alot of people will lie about it

Let's assume people are honest. What are your thoughts on just the aspect of crossing them?

Pirarucu

08-25-13, 07:40 PM

As long as pure lines are still produced and kept viable, and sellers are honest and keep good records of the different bloodlines, I have nothing against it.
Of course, if the species/locality/whatever is one that is in decline, I feel that it should be kept pure at least until there is a large enough captive population to handle mixing it with others without running out of pure specimens.

smy_749

08-26-13, 04:15 AM

What piracucu said^^

TheZoo

08-26-13, 09:32 AM

Let's assume people are honest. What are your thoughts on just the aspect of crossing them?

Then why not I wouldn't want all crosses because somtimes the pures look really nice to but I think you can get some really nice snakes from crosses i'm totally for it as long as everyone plays fair.

Donnie

08-26-13, 09:41 AM

what smy_749 said

KORBIN5895

08-26-13, 10:03 AM

The problem with mixed localities is that there is no way to keep a mix from being mistaken for a pure locality and then bred into a pure line.

pdomensis

08-26-13, 10:31 AM

I agree with Pirarucu et al. Additionally, herps need a registry for lineage similar to the AKC for dogs.

Hannibalcanibal

08-26-13, 10:34 AM

The problem with mixed localities is that there is no way to keep a mix from being mistaken for a pure locality and then bred into a pure line.

^this. No matter how honest everyone is, a lot of people are not, or are, but could make a mistake and breed without knowing the true nature of papa beast.

exwizard

08-26-13, 01:06 PM

What Donnie said.

Pirarucu

08-26-13, 04:05 PM

What exwizard said.

Mikoh4792

08-26-13, 04:10 PM

What exwizard said.

What y'all said.

exwizard

08-26-13, 04:34 PM

In all seriousness though, personally I don't have a problem with the fact that mutt snakes are out there. It's just not for me and I certainly won't pay the exorbitant prices some hybrids are demanding. Yes, there's a difference between hybrids and integrades but I don't like either one. To me, both groups are mutts but that is just my opinion. If someone else has a "X" of any kind, I don't have a problem with that. I just don't personally like them and don't want them. Even my Carpets are Irian Jayas and nothing else. I did suspect Black Betty of having some MGB in her but I no longer think this is the case after further review. She's all Dum. I say, "to each their own". :)

franks

08-26-13, 04:36 PM

What Piraruco said (the second time)

StudentoReptile

08-26-13, 04:54 PM

Mikoh4792

08-26-13, 05:12 PM

Personally, I'm against it, for reasons others have already pointed out. In the end, its all an attempt to make something with a higher price tag.

But....[sigh]...people are gonna do what they want, so all I can hope is for them to be upfront and honest on what they put on their pricetags.

...but not everyone does.

I agree with you that a higher price is a reason for it many times. However what about people who don't sell them for higher prices? For example I am looking at many Green tree python crosses sell for $300 and BCI crosses for cheaper or the same than they would go for if they were pure locale specimen.

StudentoReptile

08-26-13, 05:57 PM

I agree with you that a higher price is a reason for it many times. However what about people who don't sell them for higher prices? For example I am looking at many Green tree python crosses sell for $300 and BCI crosses for cheaper or the same than they would go for if they were pure locale specimen.

I would wager that some people finally got the idea that mutts don't always sell as well as the pure stuff. Mind you, this is only my opinion. I don't really follow the GTP or the BC markets.

smy_749

08-26-13, 06:15 PM

I would wager that some people finally got the idea that mutts don't always sell as well as the pure stuff. Mind you, this is only my opinion. I don't really follow the GTP or the BC markets.

GTP mutts actually sell very well, depending on your definition of a mutt. If just unknown lineage of mixed locales is a mutt, than it'll only sell for high price if its visually stunning. However, if its a mutt with known history/genetics, these often sell for more than pure localities.

Mikoh4792

08-26-13, 06:24 PM

GTP mutts actually sell very well, depending on your definition of a mutt. If just unknown lineage of mixed locales is a mutt, than it'll only sell for high price if its visually stunning. However, if its a mutt with known history/genetics, these often sell for more than pure localities.

Even then, it's only locale crossing. Nothing like mixing subspecies such as jungles to irian jayas. I wouldn't call crossed GTP's mutts.

smy_749

08-26-13, 06:27 PM

Even then, it's only locale crossing. Nothing like mixing subspecies such as jungles to irian jayas. I wouldn't call crossed GTP's mutts.

I don't really know what were are talking about, I just skipped to your last comment and students last one. I don't know what we are calling 'mutts'. I will say that keeping subspecies pure and keeping localities pure are both important to me, subspecies being a bit more for obvious reasons.

exwizard

08-26-13, 06:58 PM

My definition of a mutt is mixed locales of the same species or outright hybrids. Someone else's definition may be different but that's what I mean. To me, a pure Irian Jaya or Coastal is far more valuable than a "X" of any kind. The same goes with Boa locales. I would much rather have a pure Suriname BCC or even a pure Colombian BCI than a mixture of the two or any other mixing of South American Boas of any type. Problem is that there has already been so much mixing that it's more rare to find a pure specimen than to find a mutt and that to me is sad.

shaunyboy

08-27-13, 12:03 PM

exwizard

08-27-13, 12:18 PM

Like I said, go for it if that's your thing. It's not for me.

smy_749

08-27-13, 12:48 PM

imo crossing Carpet Pythons have created some of the best looking snakes on the planet mate

imo looks wise,you cannot beat a high quality Diamond Jungle Jaguar

that said,a pure Diamond or high quality pure Jungle takes a bit of beating as well

as long as people are honest about their snakes lineage,then go for it

cheers shaun

I agree about crosses, but if we don't preserve the pure localities and subspecies as well and make sure enough people are producing those, eventually every carpet is going to be a mutt and you won't have the option to create jungle x diamond or diamond x coastal or whatever because we won't have any more pure snakes to work with...

exwizard

08-27-13, 01:15 PM

..Exactly!

KORBIN5895

08-27-13, 04:09 PM

I agree about crosses, but if we don't preserve the pure localities and subspecies as well and make sure enough people are producing those, eventually every carpet is going to be a mutt and you won't have the option to create jungle x diamond or diamond x coastal or whatever because we won't have any more pure snakes to work with...

Really? I assume you mean we wont have have pure ones in the states because I'm pretty sure oz won't be running out anytime soon.

smy_749

08-27-13, 04:24 PM

Sorry Thats what I meant. Not for species preservation, just that we wont have them here in the hobby.

red ink

08-27-13, 04:57 PM

franks

08-27-13, 05:05 PM

Really? I assume you mean we wont have have pure ones in the states because I'm pretty sure oz won't be running out anytime soon.

It is a legit concern. For instance, Hogg Island Boas come to mind. They are pretty much extinct in the wild, and only a small handful of people keep verifiable pure bloodlines. They sell their pure Hoggs, but then people out-cross the babies anyway. If you want a certified pure Hogg Island Boa there are only a few reliable people you can purchase from. That is one example.

franks

08-27-13, 05:07 PM

Morelia spilota sp are not distinct - DNA wise.
The difference is morphological and geographical, taxonomically Morelia spilota are considered to have sub-species. My state governing body have just recognised sub-species this year. Previously apart from Morelia spilota spilota the rest of the carpets are Morelia spilota variegata with morphological/locale differences. Diamonds are carpet by the way....

As long as there are enough people where "pure" locals can still be readily found. I think crossing carpets with carpets is a different conversation then crossing green tree pythons with carpets. We know they inhabit some of the same terrain, is there any information of crosses between the species found in the wild?

red ink

08-27-13, 09:05 PM

As long as there are enough people where "pure" locals can still be readily found. I think crossing carpets with carpets is a different conversation then crossing green tree pythons with carpets. We know they inhabit some of the same terrain, is there any information of crosses between the species found in the wild?

Between viridis and spilota? No

Carpets yes

Port Macquarie NSW is M. s. spilota and M. s. mcdowelli intergrade zone - commonly known as Port Mac carpets or Rainforest Diamonds (heavily debated amonst arm chair herpers)

Atherthon tablelands QLD is M. s. mcdowelli and M. s. cheynei intergrade zone -again heavily debated whether they are jungles or coastals or a mixture of the two - Tablelands carpets

Gammon Ranges SA is M. s. imbicata and M. s. metcalfei intergrade zone
Accepted as Gammon ranges carpets by enthusiaist - oddly enough with this one everybody seems to agree (separate stand alone locale - no published paper though). They are believed to be closer to imbricata than metcalfei

Cape York QLD - don't even go there taxonomically - cheynei?, variegata? and mcdowelli?

franks

08-27-13, 10:30 PM

Thanks for the reply red ink. That is extremely interesting. I am going to read up on some of what you just posted. If you know of anywhere to point me i am all ears.

Mikoh4792

08-27-13, 10:40 PM

Atherthon tablelands QLD is M. s. mcdowelli and M. s. cheynei intergrade zone -again heavily debated whether they are jungles or coastals or a mixture of the two - Tablelands carpets

Interesting. I was reading about atherthon tablelands in a book and it says that jungle carpets that come from this area are usually the monsters that get to 8 feet. Maybe it has something to do with coastal genes.

red ink

08-27-13, 11:02 PM

Interesting. I was reading about atherthon tablelands in a book and it says that jungle carpets that come from this area are usually the monsters that get to 8 feet. Maybe it has something to do with coastal genes.

My female jungle is a tablelands jungle... she's nudging 5 1/2 - 6 foot at just under three years old

red ink

08-27-13, 11:05 PM

Thanks for the reply red ink. That is extremely interesting. I am going to read up on some of what you just posted. If you know of anywhere to point me i am all ears.

Search the Oz forums mate... you find pics and info on them.

Dr. Simon Stone wrote up his findings on the Gammon ranges carpets on the Southern Cross Reptiles website.

Mikoh4792

08-27-13, 11:38 PM

My female jungle is a tablelands jungle... she's nudging 5 1/2 - 6 foot at just under three years old

Is that big or small ?

marvelfreak

08-28-13, 01:33 AM

Is that big or small ?
For being just under three years old that's big.

Mikoh4792

08-28-13, 02:27 AM

For being just under three years old that's big.

Ah I see.

@ red ink

Could we see a photo of your jungle?

red ink

08-28-13, 03:08 AM

Ah I see.

@ red ink

Could we see a photo of your jungle?

My Jungles

Atherton JCP
About 6 - 8 months old
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn214/Red-Ink-Buldogs/Female%20JCP/03a6d521.jpg (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/Red-Ink-Buldogs/media/Female%20JCP/03a6d521.jpg.html)

At 2 years old
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn214/Red-Ink-Buldogs/Female%20JCP/JCP11_zps9adc7883.jpg (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/Red-Ink-Buldogs/media/Female%20JCP/JCP11_zps9adc7883.jpg.html)

Tully JCP
At about a year old
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn214/Red-Ink-Buldogs/Greyham/P1020338.jpg (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/Red-Ink-Buldogs/media/Greyham/P1020338.jpg.html)

At 3 years old
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn214/Red-Ink-Buldogs/Greyham/gray3.jpg (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/Red-Ink-Buldogs/media/Greyham/gray3.jpg.html)