Interesting new whole prey item...

[Vegasarah]

Living in the desert means I don't have access to very many food sources. Everything here is imported- it means the price of simple things like fresh water prey items are extremely high. Recently I've been considering going out with a local herp group into the desert to do some blacklight hunting for scorpions. Many of them feed them to some of their own collection- apparently bearded dragons love them. Stingers are removed beforehand, of course.

So what do you guys think? Safe to feed to a Nile/ Sav/ Salvator if it has the stinger removed? Are there an parasites etc that could be transferred?

[Mikoh4792]

Parasites are always a concern with wild-caught prey items. However it's pretty cool that you can go with a group of other herpers in your area to go scorpion hunting.

[B_Aller]

I've fed out scorpions before to exanthematicus and dumerilii without ill effects. I have some serious doubts as to whether parasites from these types of prey are a problem, generally captivity interrupts their life cycle so they don't reproduce and become burdensome.

[infernalis]

Parasites are always a concern with wild-caught prey items. However it's pretty cool that you can go with a group of other herpers in your area to go scorpion hunting.

Many folks do not realize that most multi cell parasites from the North American continent have evolved over millions of years to do well in North American hosts, and commonly pass right through tropical host animals without infecting them.

The term "cold blooded" does not really apply to Varanids. They like their blood hot. Meaning that most of these organisms cannot tolerate living in a host that will bask itself up hotter than the hosts the organism evolved to occupy.

In much the same fashion as a fever flushes out the common cold or the flu in us, hot basking does a similar effect with our lizard friends.

I doubt a few scorpions from the desert are going to give your Nile a lethal case of roundworm.

Sarah already knows to keep her lizard well heated. ;)

[Mikoh4792]

@ infernalis and B_aller

Did not know that. Pretty interesting.

[Gatorhunter1231]

If you are worried about potential parasites then freeze the scorpions.

[formica]

Its not true that parasites do not do well in alien hosts, some parasites have adapted to certain species and will only infect them, but it can often be the opposite, alien hosts have not adapted to fight the parasite and are often killed or made seriously ill by them - we need to be very careful introducing wild food to any species for this reason

The term "cold blooded" does not really apply to Varanids. They like their blood hot.

this is a common misunderstanding of the term cold blooded, it means simply that the animal cannot generate its own heat, it doesnt have anything to do with the temperature the animal needs to reach to function properly

according to DB's book, they maintain a temperature of 38C at adulthood, regardless of the basking temperature, 38C is only a little bit above many mammals

[smy_749]

Its not true that parasites do not do well in alien hosts, some parasites have adapted to certain species and will only infect them, but it can often be the opposite, alien hosts have not adapted to fight the parasite and are often killed or made seriously ill by them - we need to be very careful introducing wild food to any species for this reason



this is a common misunderstanding of the term cold blooded, it means simply that the animal cannot generate its own heat, it doesnt have anything to do with the temperature the animal needs to reach to function properly

according to DB's book, they maintain a temperature of 38C at adulthood, regardless of the basking temperature, 38C is only a little bit above many mammals


How do they maintain internal body temperature if they are ectothermic?

[formica]

How do they maintain internal body temperature if they are ectothermic?

I have no idea what their physiology is doing to stablize the tempreture, only what DB reported in his book - when they bask, their temp is a steady 38C (large adults, not young), there is also no information on which part of the body was measured or how

the 38C is not a refrence to tempretures when not basking or asleep etc

[smy_749]

So are they not true ectotherms then, if they can regulate against external sources? Thats interesting..

[infernalis]

Formica, have you read the page I assembled with parasite (actual study information pertaining to the squamates known as Varanidae) data from Professor Sam Sweet, Nikola Pantchev & David Kirshner?

Monitor Lizard Forums - parasites (http://www.varanustalk.com/forum/index.php?pageid=parasites)

[formica]

Formica, have you read the page I assembled with parasite (actual study information pertaining to the squamates known as Varanidae) data from Professor Sam Sweet, Nikola Pantchev & David Kirshner?

Monitor Lizard Forums - parasites (http://www.varanustalk.com/forum/index.php?pageid=parasites)

yeah seen that - and it essentially says the same thing I did, non-native ''novel'' hosts may not be able to survive infection of parasites it has not evolved with - i was referring to all parasites, not just gastric worms

it needs to be considered, when collecting reptile prey locally, that the prey has a high likley hood of containing some form of parasite which infects said reptiles, there are a vast array of them, and as said in my previous post, and was confirmed in the artical, alien species may not have the protection it needs to deal with them or even to survive as a host.

There are other ways into the body aswell as the gut, which is notoriously difficult to infect in any animal, and these need particular attention when dealing with live prey; cuts/abrasions inside and out are the most obvious entry point, but also the nostrils, gum lining, glands, and the easiest access point, the eye, which is very vulnerable to infection

this is not really an issue when dealing with sterile feeders that are kept well away from potentially infectious reptiles and are known not to be infectious themselves

[formica]

So are they not true ectotherms then, if they can regulate against external sources? Thats interesting..

I'm not sure about that, things like blood pressure, heart rate and other physiological processes can affect the way heat is absorbed and released from the body (most obvious example is Chameleons which when basking, turn black on one side to absorb heat, and white on the other side to keep it inside the body)

cold blooded, or ectotherm simply means that the body doesnt burn energy to produce its own heat, it doesnt cover any adaptions which enable the animal to use external heat more defiantly

[franks]

So are they not true ectotherms then, if they can regulate against external sources? Thats interesting..

They cannot truly regulate against external sources. What Daniel Bennett wrote is that they can protect themselves from external sources by retaining the temps they gleaned from the sun longer as adults longer. A baby sav can only be out minutes at a ti me in full daylight heat for a few minutes. They take and loose heat extremely quickly. An adult takes a little longer to heat up and takes longer to loose his heat, so he can be out in full heat for greater periods of time, upwards of 30 minutes.
Glad to see you read the book formica, I know you'd enjoy it. You are very into the science of our hobby, and Daniel Bennett came closer than anyone else to providing real answers.

[franks]

Edit: Sorry, that was a bit confusing written on my phone. The jist of what I was trying to say is that they cannot regulate their temps, they can just withstand and withhold temps a little longer before they succumb to the influences of their climate.

[formica]

They cannot truly regulate against external sources. What Daniel Bennett wrote is that they can protect themselves from external sources by retaining the temps they gleaned from the sun longer as adults longer. A baby sav can only be out minutes at a ti me in full daylight heat for a few minutes. They take and loose heat extremely quickly. An adult takes a little longer to heat up and takes longer to loose his heat, so he can be out in full heat for greater periods of time, upwards of 30 minutes.
Glad to see you read the book formica, I know you'd enjoy it. You are very into the science of our hobby, and Daniel Bennett came closer than anyone else to providing real answers.

DB's numbers, waking temps 25-26C, average daily temps 30-35C, to above 39C basking, anything above 42C = fatal - but during an experiment, juveniles heated up as 'inert objects', ie they keep getting hotter and hotter, but adults where able to maintain 38C for much longer (upto a further hour activity in the sun compared to a juvenile)

its interesting that adults require 30-40minutes in his experiments, but a 15 minute basking session is considered enough in captivity?

despite what people think, i read it the same week i got my Sav when it was recommended :) and its where allot of my (apparently controversial) questions and ideas have come from...still waiting and hoping for some answers from DB himself on some of them, email must have got lost somewhere i think




cold blooded, or ectotherm simply means that the body doesnt burn energy to produce its own heat, it doesnt cover any adaptions which enable the animal to use external heat more defiantly

should have said 'more efficiently' not 'more defiantly' lol damn auto correct and my bad spelling

[murrindindi]

I have no idea what their physiology is doing to stablize the tempreture, only what DB reported in his book - when they bask, their temp is a steady 38C (large adults, not young), there is also no information on which part of the body was measured or how

the 38C is not a refrence to tempretures when not basking or asleep etc


Hi, can you quote the passage where Daniel states their (core?) temp remains at 38c irrespective of how long they bask and at what temp?
Thanks!

[B_Aller]

Wow, what a mess.
Hey Formica, besides reading less than 1% of the academic research done and misunderstanding it do you have any real experience with parasites in varanids? How about any experience feeding wild caught prey to varanids? how about any evidence to back up what you say in any form? Any fecal exams you can show me where "alien" parasites have taken hold in varanids? anything that in anyway would lend any credit at all to what you are saying here?

Franks, why do you say Daniel Bennett came closer than ANYONE else to providing "real" information about the "science" of our hobby? What are you comparing his work with? Who's work is a close second in your mind?
Ever bothered to pick up any of Auffenbergs work? Ever even flipped through one of his volumes? Or watched any of his speeches? All of his work is easily available and obviously with a statement like that you are familiar with his work right? So do tell, how does Auffenberg stack up to Bennett when it comes to the "science" of our hobby?
Ben

[smy_749]

So, all of that is wonderful. Was I wrong to assume they can't regulate to stay at 38c? Anyone have more info on how thermoregulation in varanids works..

[formica]

Hi, can you quote the passage where Daniel states their (core?) temp remains at 38c irrespective of how long they bask and at what temp?
Thanks!

i'm not going to type it out for you lol page 18

I outlined what was said, above, regarding temps and basking temp specifics ...i did not say 'irrespective' of how long they bask, the times are above in my edited post, my reference to basking temp was to point out that a basking spot may be 50C, but the monitor will maintain its temp at 38C, and is able to maintain that lower temperature despite the conditions, as DB said for upto an hour, obviously this is all within certain parameters, if the temp is 10C, it wont reach 38C, and if its 100C it'll die.

Wow, what a mess.
Hey Formica, besides reading less than 1% of the academic research done and misunderstanding it do you have any real experience with parasites in varanids? How about any experience feeding wild caught prey to varanids? how about any evidence to back up what you say in any form? Any fecal exams you can show me where "alien" parasites have taken hold in varanids? anything that in anyway would lend any credit at all to what you are saying here?

Franks, why do you say Daniel Bennett came closer than ANYONE else to providing "real" information about the "science" of our hobby? What are you comparing his work with? Who's work is a close second in your mind?
Ever bothered to pick up any of Auffenbergs work? Ever even flipped through one of his volumes? Or watched any of his speeches? All of his work is easily available and obviously with a statement like that you are familiar with his work right? So do tell, how does Auffenberg stack up to Bennett when it comes to the "science" of our hobby?
Ben

you seem to be under the impression that monitors are an alien species beyond the reach of the biological processes which go on across the globe in every animal that exists, sorry to tell you, but they arnt, they are fragile biological machines just like the rest of nature, and just like the rest of nature, there are a myriad of other organisms from single cells to complex primates that would very much like to eat it from the inside out, or on a bbq.

but, we both know your questions have absolutely no desire for academic answers or discussion on the topic.

[Pirarucu]

Smy, the point was not that they are constantly at 38°C because their physiology regulates their internal temperature. As they thermoregulate by moving between hot and cool areas, that is simply the target temperature they are trying to keep their body at.

[formica]

Smy, the point was not that they are constantly at 38°C because their physiology regulates their internal temperature. As they thermoregulate by moving between hot and cool areas, that is simply the target temperature they are trying to keep their body at.

yes, sorry if I confused the topic! Savs reach and maintain 38C for upto an hour after basking, according to DBs experiments, thats not to say they generate their own heat, just that they are quite efficient in maintaining/storing the heat from basking

[B_Aller]

you seem to be under the impression that monitors are an alien species beyond the reach of the biological processes which go on across the globe in every animal that exists, sorry to tell you, but they arnt, they are fragile biological machines just like the rest of nature, and just like the rest of nature, there are a myriad of other organisms from single cells to complex primates that would very much like to eat it from the inside out, or on a bbq.

but, we both know your questions have absolutely no desire for academic answers or discussion on the topic.

Really? So you have spent time with varanids in the wild as well as have extensive long term experience caring for these guys to make that sort of statement eh? Varanids are "fragile" creatures huh? Wow wonder how they survived for millennia without our help.
You seem to have no real world experience and nothing to back up your claims. Show me ONE series of fecal exams that shows long term infestation to "alien" parasites, from any species of varaqnid from any time in history....ONE, double dog dare you. Hell I'll donate $100 to your favorite wildlife charity in YOUR name if you can show me any evidence to support what you have said here.
I'm straight up calling you on posting wrong info formica, I am SERIOUSLY interested in academic answers to my questions or else I wouldn't have asked them!!!!!!!
You made some specious statements here with no way of backing them up, yeah, I'm going to call you on that every time as you have shown that you have not bothered to read even the most accessible academic research and are just talking out your backside.
Straight up, show your sources for this information and your conclusions. I'm dead serious.

[murrindindi]

i'm not going to type it out for you lol page 18

I outlined what was said, above, regarding temps and basking temp specifics ...i did not say 'irrespective' of how long they bask, the times are above in my edited post, my reference to basking temp was to point out that a basking spot may be 50C, but the monitor will maintain its temp at 38C, and is able to maintain that lower temperature despite the conditions, as DB said for upto an hour, obviously this is all within certain parameters, if the temp is 10C, it wont reach 38C, and if its 100C it'll die.


I don`t have a copy of the book at this time, I sent it to a friend.
I got the impression you meant they can maintain 38c no matter what the surrounding temps are:

according to DB's book, they maintain a temperature of 38C at adulthood, regardless of the basking temperature, 38C is only a little bit above many mammals



So if the surface temp is for instance 50c they`ll bask until their core body temp is 38c, Daniel/you are saying they can maintain that core temp for up to an hour without thermoregulating further?
It would be interesting to know the mass of the animals he tested, I think a "large adult" in a wild specimen may be much smaller than a "large" captive raised one?

[Pirarucu]

Formica, you do understand the main reason that the monitor's maintain a temperature longer as adults and not as babies is size, right? It takes longer to heat a larger object than a smaller one, and it takes longer for a larger object to cool as well. Therefore, the larger the animal, the less fluctuation its core temperature will have.
In addition, a strong immune system is a strong immune system. Will it me more specialized to killing off some organisms? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's defenseless against foreign organisms. Alligators and crocodiles have been shown to have immune systems capable of dealing with just about anything, even human diseases that our own immune systems struggle with.

[smy_749]

I guess I misunderstood... They way I read it was that he was implying no matter the basking temp, they can maintain temps of 38c. If they are moving to cool areas to maintain 38c is what he meant than I have no issues with it..

[murrindindi]

I guess I misunderstood... They way I read it was that he was implying no matter the basking temp, they can maintain temps of 38c. If they are moving to cool areas to maintain 38c is what he meant than I have no issues with it..


He (Formica) did say that.

[Pirarucu]

I don`t have a copy of the book at this time, I sent it to a friend.
I got the impression you meant they can maintain 38c no matter what the surrounding temps are.
So if the surface temp is for instance 50c they`ll bask until their core body temp is 38c, Daniel/you are saying they can maintain that core temp for up to an hour without thermoregulating further?
It would be interesting to know the mass of the animals he tested, I think a "large adult" in a wild specimen may be much smaller than a "large" captive raised one?I have it here:
"A humane version of the same experiment demonstrates that on a sunny morning an 11g juvenile increased body temperature by 1.7C in a minute, whilst a 400g adult heated at only 0.2C per minute. Furthermore juvenile lizards heat up as if they were inert objects but adults are able to maintain steady body temperatures of around 38C for much longer periods. This means that when juveniles reach their maximum preferred body temperature they must retreat to a cooler spot within two minutes, whilst adults can remain active in full sun for a further half an hour. This greatly increases the animal's foraging options in hot weather, but because it takes the lizards much longer to heat up they are unable to make much use of short sunny spells during cloudy weather. As a result juveniles can be active on any day when there are breaks in the cloud, but adults must remain inactive unless more substantial sunny periods are available."

[formica]

Really? So you have spent time with varanids in the wild as well as have extensive long term experience caring for these guys to make that sort of statement eh? Varanids are "fragile" creatures huh? Wow wonder how they survived for millennia without our help.
You seem to have no real world experience and nothing to back up your claims. Show me ONE series of fecal exams that shows long term infestation to "alien" parasites, from any species of varaqnid from any time in history....ONE, double dog dare you. Hell I'll donate $100 to your favorite wildlife charity in YOUR name if you can show me any evidence to support what you have said here.
I'm straight up calling you on posting wrong info formica, I am SERIOUSLY interested in academic answers to my questions or else I wouldn't have asked them!!!!!!!
You made some specious statements here with no way of backing them up, yeah, I'm going to call you on that every time as you have shown that you have not bothered to read even the most accessible academic research and are just talking out your backside.
Straight up, show your sources for this information and your conclusions. I'm dead serious.

for the sake of the donation i'll humor you:

A retrospective study of mortality in varanid lizar... [Zoo Biol. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22997089)

out of 85, infection related deaths accounted for:

15.3% from bacteria
12.7% from protozoa
9.4% from nemtode (worms)
5.3% fungal

it is possible that those infections took hold prior to capture, but given the prevalence of infectious organisms in this world, there is no reason to assume that is the case, and the study covered both captive bred and wild caught specimens - i dont have access to the full paper, but perhaps you do and you could enlighten us on the known number of captive bred animals which died as a result of infections caught in captivity not in their native habitat.... and then send the donation to ZSL London Zoo


this is the last time I'm going to respond to your posts if you continue talking down in this manner, you are not adding anything positive to the discussion by behaving like this.

[formica]

Formica, you do understand the main reason that the monitor's maintain a temperature longer as adults and not as babies is size, right? It takes longer to heat a larger object than a smaller one, and it takes longer for a larger object to cool as well. Therefore, the larger the animal, the less fluctuation its core temperature will have.
In addition, a strong immune system is a strong immune system. Will it me more specialized to killing off some organisms? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's defenseless against foreign organisms. Alligators and crocodiles have been shown to have immune systems capable of dealing with just about anything, even human diseases that our own immune systems struggle with.

yes I understand the relationship between size and body tempreture

diseases do not usually cross from for eg, primates to reptiles, even between dogs and primates, thats not really how it works, for some organisms it does for eg protozoa or worms, or salmonela in chickens, but bacterial/viral infections are generally specialized to take advantage of a very specific set of environmental conditions with particular species, and parasites like worms use prey animals as a transfer method, they dont infect them in the same way that they infect the final host

Now, what I was saying, is that there could well be infectious organisms living in reptiles in the country that the monitor finds itself, which may find the monitors body just the right enviroment to live and thrive, and given the right conditions it can be fatal

one most obvious example is Ebola, it is not a human disease, it is a monkey disease, but humans and monkeys are close enough inside to provide Ebola with an enviroment in which it can thrive, and because humans have not evolved with it, it has no protection whatsoever, well i'm sure you know the results of Ebola infection in humans!

There are always examples of species which are resistant to some infectious organisms, but on the other side of the coin, there are also organisms which can eat a species alive - one of the concerns surrounding exploration of the Amazon for eg, is that there is very likley to be an array of undiscovered organism which will find humans to be a good host, and the same can be said of any species in a non native habitat

[smy_749]

I have it here:
"A humane version of the same experiment demonstrates that on a sunny morning an 11g juvenile increased body temperature by 1.7C in a minute, whilst a 400g adult heated at only 0.2C per minute. Furthermore juvenile lizards heat up as if they were inert objects but adults are able to maintain steady body temperatures of around 38C for much longer periods. This means that when juveniles reach their maximum preferred body temperature they must retreat to a cooler spot within two minutes, whilst adults can remain active in full sun for a further half an hour. This greatly increases the animal's foraging options in hot weather, but because it takes the lizards much longer to heat up they are unable to make much use of short sunny spells during cloudy weather. As a result juveniles can be active on any day when there are breaks in the cloud, but adults must remain inactive unless more substantial sunny periods are available."


It sounds like Formica misqouted then when he said that they required 40-50 minutes in the wild, and we only recommend 15 min basking in captivity. I'm still interested in the 'how' these adults maintain 38c since the babies are physiologically the same. It seems more like the adults are increasing just like neonates, but since they have larger body mass, it simply takes longer and they don't actually DO any regulative process to keep cool....

Edit: Sorry, I just saw that piracucu basically said what I just did earlier.

[B_Aller]

So you site Bob's paper! Ha Perfect. This paper (written by a good friend of mine!) draws the conclusion that the majority of deaths in captive reptiles is from dehydration and gout, followed closely by reproductive failures and shows that parasitical infections are low on the list of harms to captive varanids, not to mention that the majority of those animals that died from infection were wild caught and died withing a short time of being in captivity. A reasonable conclusion from Bobs work is that inferior husbandry lead to some wild caught animals being unable to fight off wild pararsite loads but has only one instance of POSSIBLE foreign parasite infestation with questionable data. You can read the whole article on Bobs site or in Biawak, SUPER easy to find this report.

The real question Formica is why do you feel it's acceptable for someone with your obvious lack of understanding and lack of experience to offer up advice on captive husbandry protocols? How is this helping progress the hobby or teach people to care for these animals better? You are jumping to conclusions, searching for evidence to back up your pre-concieved ideas instead of actually reading the work or doing the work, how is this in any way helpful.

[formica]

one instance of POSSIBLE foreign parasite infestation with questionable data.

so what exactly am I saying that is wrong, if you say yourself, that it is: ''POSSIBLE''

I am not the only person on this planet saying dont feed wild caught foods to reptiles, you are questioning a vast number of people in your arrogant assumptions about what I do and do not know.

[formica]

It sounds like Formica misqouted then when he said that they required 40-50 minutes in the wild, and we only recommend 15 min basking in captivity. I'm still interested in the 'how' these adults maintain 38c since the babies are physiologically the same. It seems more like the adults are increasing just like neonates, but since they have larger body mass, it simply takes longer and they don't actually DO any regulative process to keep cool....

Edit: Sorry, I just saw that piracucu basically said what I just did earlier.

30-40minutes comes from the graph below that paragraph, infact he calculates that it took the larger adults one minute to raise their body tempreture by 0.2C, from 25C to 38C, thats 65minutes - but as I said there is no information on how those tempretures where taken, or the basking tempreture

[Pirarucu]

for the sake of the donation i'll humor you:

A retrospective study of mortality in varanid lizar... [Zoo Biol. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22997089)

out of 85, infection related deaths accounted for:

15.3% from bacteria
12.7% from protozoa
9.4% from nemtode (worms)
5.3% fungal

it is possible that those infections took hold prior to capture, but given the prevalence of infectious organisms in this world, there is no reason to assume that is the case, and the study covered both captive bred and wild caught specimens - i dont have access to the full paper, but perhaps you do and you could enlighten us on the known number of captive bred animals which died as a result of infections caught in captivity not in their native habitat.... and then send the donation to ZSL London Zoo


this is the last time I'm going to respond to your posts if you continue talking down in this manner, you are not adding anything positive to the discussion by behaving like this.LOL. Considering that it has been concluded by most people familiar with proper varanid husbandry that the Bronx Zoo does not house its varanids in anything close to proper conditions (hence the majority of deaths being from dehydration and gout/reproductive failures). Their varanids are not properly supported, leaving them much more vulnerable to infection. Find something showing healthy varanids dying from parasitic causes.
yes I understand the relationship between size and body tempreture

diseases do not usually cross from for eg, primates to reptiles, even between dogs and primates, thats not really how it works, for some organisms it does for eg protozoa or worms, or salmonela in chickens, but bacterial/viral infections are generally specialized to take advantage of a very specific set of environmental conditions with particular species, and parasites like worms use prey animals as a transfer method, they dont infect them in the same way that they infect the final host

Now, what I was saying, is that there could well be infectious organisms living in reptiles in the country that the monitor finds itself, which may find the monitors body just the right enviroment to live and thrive, and given the right conditions it can be fatal

one most obvious example is Ebola, it is not a human disease, it is a monkey disease, but humans and monkeys are close enough inside to provide Ebola with an enviroment in which it can thrive, and because humans have not evolved with it, it has no protection whatsoever, well i'm sure you know the results of Ebola infection in humans!

There are always examples of species which are resistant to some infectious organisms, but on the other side of the coin, there are also organisms which can eat a species alive - one of the concerns surrounding exploration of the Amazon for eg, is that there is very likley to be an array of undiscovered organism which will find humans to be a good host, and the same can be said of any species in a non native habitatAgain, LOL. Even more evidence you don't seem to have an understanding of what you read. Ebola? A monkey disease? Please. It is not a primate disease, as evidenced by how well it massacres them. It's too fatal, too fast, and isn't infectious enough to gain a foothold in a population of primates. It is unknown what its natural host is, but whatever animal Ebola normally resides in is going to be one not affected by it, or at least not affected as badly. As of now, the best guess is that it resides in bats, as they have been found to have immune systems resistant to Ebola Virus, and in laboratory tests, Ebola has been shown to infect some species without making them sick. Even so, them being its natural host is as of yet unproven because no wild bats have been found carrying Ebola.

You seem to think that it is the goal of the virus to kill its host. The reality is far from your interpretation. A successful parasite is one that can infect and spread through a species without killing its hosts.

[formica]

LOL. Considering that it has been concluded by most people familiar with proper varanid husbandry that the Bronx Zoo does not house its varanids in anything close to proper conditions (hence the majority of deaths being from dehydration and gout/reproductive failures). Their varanids are not properly supported, leaving them much more vulnerable to infection. Find something showing healthy varanids dying from parasitic causes.
Again, LOL. Even more evidence you don't seem to have an understanding of what you read. Ebola? A monkey disease? Please. It is not a primate disease, as evidenced by how well it massacres them. It's too fatal, too fast, and isn't infectious enough to gain a foothold in a population of primates. It is unknown what its natural host is, but whatever animal Ebola normally resides in is going to be one not affected by it, or at least not affected as badly. As of now, the best guess is that it resides in bats, as they have been found to have immune systems resistant to Ebola Virus, and in laboratory tests, Ebola has been shown to infect some species without making them sick. Even so, them being its natural host is as of yet unproven because no wild bats have been found carrying Ebola.

You seem to think that it is the goal of the virus to kill its host. The reality is far from your interpretation. A successful parasite is one that can infect and spread through a species without killing its hosts.

are you suggesting that every sav in captivity now has a fully functional immune system that can battle everything and anything thats thrown at it? in which case, you really should get onto the world health organisation and let them know about this spectacular creature which defies the biological rules which put every other species 6ft under.

there are many theories on the source of Ebola, none of which have been proven yet, but thats missing my point entirly, it is not a human disease, humans have not evolved with it, and they have no protection against it - that, is my point.

I understand that a parasite does not intend to kill its host, thats not my point either, my point is that when an animal and a parasite have not evolved together, the result, can be death (for either or both), whereas those that evolved together, are more easily able to exist without one or the other dying.

[B_Aller]

so what exactly am I saying that is wrong, if you say yourself, that it is: ''POSSIBLE''

I am not the only person on this planet saying dont feed wild caught foods to reptiles, you are questioning a vast number of people in your arrogant assumptions about what I do and do not know.

What's wrong is that the proper support was not there, the animals were subjected to improper husbandry and quarantine protocols and the cause of death was questionable. All of that is stated in the paper, and by the way, that paper is already linked on this site, pretty easy to find.

My point and the reason I'm glad you cited Bobs excellent work is that the conclusion we are drawing from the evidence we have available to us that the most important parameters in reptile keeping are the tenets of modern husbandry,i.e large temp gradient, deep natural substrate,proper diet, range of humidity and security and reproductive support. These are more important than worrying over parasites and UV and brumation and other trivial nonsense. There are thousands of monitors dead from improper husbandry, POSSIBLY a few that died from "alien" parasite loads, maybe, no actual evidence, so why are you, Formica with no experience and no knowledge even of the paper you site offering up advice? It's dangerous and destructive. You think I'm arrogant, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, my reason for challenging you is that you are offering bad advice. That conclusion is based on my hands on experience.

[murrindindi]

I have it here:
"A humane version of the same experiment demonstrates that on a sunny morning an 11g juvenile increased body temperature by 1.7C in a minute, whilst a 400g adult heated at only 0.2C per minute. Furthermore juvenile lizards heat up as if they were inert objects but adults are able to maintain steady body temperatures of around 38C for much longer periods. This means that when juveniles reach their maximum preferred body temperature they must retreat to a cooler spot within two minutes, whilst adults can remain active in full sun for a further half an hour. This greatly increases the animal's foraging options in hot weather, but because it takes the lizards much longer to heat up they are unable to make much use of short sunny spells during cloudy weather. As a result juveniles can be active on any day when there are breaks in the cloud, but adults must remain inactive unless more substantial sunny periods are available."


Hi, many thanks for posting the info! It`s interesting to note that an animal weighing just 400gm is described as a "large" adult.
I must say though that there`s a great difference between what Formica claimed and what Daniel actually said in terms of the time they can maintain their core temp of 38c (60 mins Formica, 30 for Daniel). I take it Daniel got it wrong? :)

[Pirarucu]

are you suggesting that every sav in captivity now has a fully functional immune system that can battle everything and anything thats thrown at it? in which case, you really should get onto the world health organisation and let them know about this spectacular creature which defies the biological rules which put every other species 6ft under.

there are many theories on the source of Ebola, none of which have been proven yet, but thats missing my point entirly, it is not a human disease, humans have not evolved with it, and they have no protection against it - that, is my point.

I understand that a parasite does not intend to kill its host, thats not my point either, my point is that when an animal and a parasite have not evolved together, the result, can be death (for either or both), whereas those that evolved together, are more easily able to exist without one or the other dying.No, I'm not saying that they are invincible. But to base your claims off of a misinterpretation of a study is even more in the wrong. The conclusion was that most varanid deaths are caused directly by improper husbandry. I would go a step further and say that a number of the remaining deaths are also indirectly caused by improper husbandry, as the monitor's immune system cannot function at its full capacity when it is not supported. I'm not saying a properly supported varanid can take anything, but they are far from fragile animals. There is a reason they are still around. Show me an example of a properly cared for captive monitor dying from some parasite or disease because it was fed wild prey.
It's also worth pointing out, every organism on the planet is host to something or other. Humans contain more bacteria, viruses, and fungi than we do human cells. Entire ecosystems exist inside of us. The same being true for every animal, do you think we should only feed our monitors prey from the exact spot in Africa that the monitor originates from? What if a species of bacteria that lives in the guts of Dubia Roaches is lethal when ingested by a Savannah Monitor?
The bottom line is that bacteria, viruses, fungi, and all manner of parasites are everywhere. The simple fact that your monitor is not on the plains of Africa means that it is being exposed to numerous organisms that it has never encountered or evolved with. Properly support your monitor, and the likelihood that it will get sick is close to none.

[nepoez]

I think everyone agrees that there is a CHANCE that foreign parasites MAY kill your varanid. That's all there is to it. No one is saying there's no chance and no one is saying the lizard will for sure die if contracted with foreign parasites. I don't see the point in this arguing.

Also my sav regulates its temp under high heat by using an umbrella hehehe

[formica]

Hi, many thanks for posting the info! It`s interesting to note that an animal weighing just 400gm is described as a "large" adult.
I must say though that there`s a great difference between what Formica claimed and what Daniel actually said in terms of the time they can maintain their core temp of 38c (60 mins Formica, 30 for Daniel). I take it Daniel got it wrong? :)

the book says temperature is maintained for upto an hour. how go and read the book yourself. tedious as usual.

No, I'm not saying that they are invincible. But to base your claims off of a misinterpretation of a study is even more in the wrong. The conclusion was that most varanid deaths are caused directly by improper husbandry. I would go a step further and say that a number of the remaining deaths are also indirectly caused by improper husbandry, as the monitor's immune system cannot function at its full capacity when it is not supported. I'm not saying a properly supported varanid can take anything, but they are far from fragile animals. There is a reason they are still around. Show me an example of a properly cared for captive monitor dying from some parasite or disease because it was fed wild prey.
It's also worth pointing out, every organism on the planet is host to something or other. Humans contain more bacteria, viruses, and fungi than we do human cells. Entire ecosystems exist inside of us. The same being true for every animal, do you think we should only feed our monitors prey from the exact spot in Africa that the monitor originates from? What if a species of bacteria that lives in the guts of Dubia Roaches is lethal when ingested by a Savannah Monitor?
The bottom line is that bacteria, viruses, fungi, and all manner of parasites are everywhere. The simple fact that your monitor is not on the plains of Africa means that it is being exposed to numerous organisms that it has never encountered or evolved with. Properly support your monitor, and the likelihood that it will get sick is close to none.

if it was not an issue, it would not be a widely held practice, this topic could infact be argued to death, but it will always come down to opinion, not fact. I personally do not consider the risk to be worth it, and there are many others who agree.

What's wrong is that the proper support was not there, the animals were subjected to improper husbandry and quarantine protocols and the cause of death was questionable. All of that is stated in the paper, and by the way, that paper is already linked on this site, pretty easy to find.

My point and the reason I'm glad you cited Bobs excellent work is that the conclusion we are drawing from the evidence we have available to us that the most important parameters in reptile keeping are the tenets of modern husbandry,i.e large temp gradient, deep natural substrate,proper diet, range of humidity and security and reproductive support. These are more important than worrying over parasites and UV and brumation and other trivial nonsense. There are thousands of monitors dead from improper husbandry, POSSIBLY a few that died from "alien" parasite loads, maybe, no actual evidence, so why are you, Formica with no experience and no knowledge even of the paper you site offering up advice? It's dangerous and destructive. You think I'm arrogant, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, my reason for challenging you is that you are offering bad advice. That conclusion is based on my hands on experience.

I'm not on this forum to be told that topics are irrelevant or trivial nonsense, if you cant handle an intelligent discussion without getting your knickers in a twist, then forums really arnt for you.

[Pirarucu]

the book says temperature is maintained for upto an hour. how go and read the book yourself. tedious as usual.



if it was not an issue, it would not be a widely held practice, this topic could infact be argued to death, but it will always come down to opinion, not fact. I personally do not consider the risk to be worth it, and there are many others who agree.



I'm not on this forum to be told that topics are irrelevant or trivial nonsense, if you cant handle an intelligent discussion without getting your knickers in a twist, then forums really arnt for you.I am sitting here with my copy, and it makes no mention of maintaining temperature for an hour. It says half an hour.

If it was not an issue, it would not be a widely held practice? Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? What is the ambiguous "It", and why would it be a widely held practice if it was an issue? I'm assuming your double negative was a mistake, but I still don't know what you're trying to say.

If you can't provide any evidence to back up your claims, I would say it's you who ought not to be on the forums. You have yet to provide any evidence not skewed by some other factor, such as improper husbandry. Also, I would not classify this as an intelligent discussion. Meaningless blather about insignificant details might be a bit more accurate. If you could more clearly state what you are trying to say and back it up with conclusive evidence instead of vague references, I might consider calling it an intelligent conversation.

[infernalis]

are you suggesting that every sav in captivity now has a fully functional immune system that can battle everything and anything thats thrown at it?.


No, but why not just stress the husbandry?

I know people who scraped dead chipmunks off the road and used it for monitor food. why not, you think a wild Argus or Perentie, Lace, Water, etc.. is going to walk away from a carcass?

is that sanitary?

Or maybe, just maybe, these scaly tanks are "set up" just right to take advantage of these free meals?

Time and again, forum after forum, I encounter people dosing lizards with pancur and for what??? because the have no effing clue why that lizard is sick, so it HAS to be parasites, and then it dies they profess parasites, the story spreads, and Miss Information wins the pageant again.

[formica]

I am sitting here with my copy, and it makes no mention of maintaining temperature for an hour. It says half an hour.

If it was not an issue, it would not be a widely held practice? Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? What is the ambiguous "It", and why would it be a widely held practice if it was an issue? I'm assuming your double negative was a mistake, but I still don't know what you're trying to say.

If you can't provide any evidence to back up your claims, I would say it's you who ought not to be on the forums. You have yet to provide any evidence not skewed by some other factor, such as improper husbandry. Also, I would not classify this as an intelligent discussion. Meaningless blather about insignificant details might be a bit more accurate. If you could more clearly state what you are trying to say and back it up with conclusive evidence instead of vague references, I might consider calling it an intelligent conversation.



yes it does say half an hour, i misread

why are you wasting your time responding to this meaningless blather?

[QUOTE=infernalis;865992]No, but why not just stress the husbandry?

I know people who scraped dead chipmunks off the road and used it for monitor food. why not, you think a wild Argus or Perentie, Lace, Water, etc.. is going to walk away from a carcass?

is that sanitary?

Or maybe, just maybe, these scaly tanks are "set up" just right to take advantage of these free meals?

Time and again, forum after forum, I encounter people dosing lizards with pancur and for what??? because the have no effing clue why that lizard is sick, so it HAS to be parasites, and then it dies they profess parasites, the story spreads, and Miss Information wins the pageant again.

it is certainly true that scavengers are better equiped to deal with unsanitary foods than more specialized species, and more so in the habitat they evolved in with the organisms they evolved with.

this topic is not about bad enviromental parameters, of course they can compromise the immune system, but for every strong immune system, there are numerous possible organisms which can take it down

[smy_749]

[quote]

yes it does say half an hour, i misread

why are you wasting your time responding to this meaningless blather?



it is certainly true that scavengers are better equiped to deal with unsanitary foods than more specialized species, and more so in the habitat they evolved in with the organisms they evolved with.

this topic is not about bad enviromental parameters, of course they can compromise the immune system, but for every strong immune system, there are numerous possible organisms which can take it down

Why is that? Isn't the way coevolution works is that the 'organisms' are co-evolving to be better suited to infect their host (red queen race?). So maybe the organisms/parasites in the hosts original environment are more adapted at harming the host? And roadkill from another country is significantly less dangerous since the parasites or whatever haven't been a part of the evolutionary race?

Not saying they can't harm the host, just that it could go either way so your statement is a bit off..

[murrindindi]

[quote]

yes it does say half an hour, i misread

why are you wasting your time responding to this meaningless blather?



I couldn`t agree more, why are we responding to your meaningless blabber once again??? (It helps to pass the time, that`s why).... :)

[formica]

Why is that? Isn't the way coevolution works is that the 'organisms' are co-evolving to be better suited to infect their host (red queen race?). So maybe the organisms/parasites in the hosts original environment are more adapted at harming the host? And roadkill from another country is significantly less dangerous since the parasites or whatever haven't been a part of the evolutionary race?

Not saying they can't harm the host, just that it could go either way so your statement is a bit off..

yep for sure it works both ways at the same time, diffrent organisms will have diffrent ways of interacting with hosts, evolution is random, so its impossible to know for sure what effect the organism will have, with current understanding and technology at least

[infernalis]

evolution is random,

http://www.varanus.us/krap/darwin.jpg

[Pirarucu]

http://www.varanus.us/krap/darwin.jpgLOL! Thanks for that, Wayne.

[Vegasarah]

Well....I came back to a lots of reading lol. Thank you gentlemen for really going above and beyond to answer my question. Got a little retailed there but I think the take away message is that I'm going to do a little more research on what kind of parasites I'm looking at with these scorpions. I know they are carnivorous so maybe they do have their own parasite load.

I'm also going to throw out that I consider my monitors to be "we'll supported". I provide a high enough basking temp to probably kill anything ingested but I want to be sure anyway.

If nothing turns up for parasites in scorpions in the state of NV I might just go for it.!

[franks]

Wow, what a mess.
Hey Formica, besides reading less than 1% of the academic research done and misunderstanding it do you have any real experience with parasites in varanids? How about any experience feeding wild caught prey to varanids? how about any evidence to back up what you say in any form? Any fecal exams you can show me where "alien" parasites have taken hold in varanids? anything that in anyway would lend any credit at all to what you are saying here?

Franks, why do you say Daniel Bennett came closer than ANYONE else to providing "real" information about the "science" of our hobby? What are you comparing his work with? Who's work is a close second in your mind?
Ever bothered to pick up any of Auffenbergs work? Ever even flipped through one of his volumes? Or watched any of his speeches? All of his work is easily available and obviously with a statement like that you are familiar with his work right? So do tell, how does Auffenberg stack up to Bennett when it comes to the "science" of our hobby?
Ben
A

Hey Ben. No disrespect to Auffenberg or anyone else who has actually studied these monitors. I have been trying to get formica to read him for a while, to answer some of his assertions and only meant that statement in comparison to people on the internet and forums making claims on topics that contradict statements DB made but have never been to Africa. I made too sweeping of a generalization.

[B_Aller]

A

Hey Ben. No disrespect to Auffenberg or anyone else who has actually studied these monitors. I have been trying to get formica to read him for a while, to answer some of his assertions and only meant that statement in comparison to people on the internet and forums making claims on topics that contradict statements DB made but have never been to Africa. I made too sweeping of a generalization.

No problem at all Franks, sorry if I was harsh, I'm about the most polite guy you'd ever meet in reality, I just am passionate about varanids and varanid husbandry.
I am flabbergasted when I see people in this age of information acting like nobody has ever studied these animals in the wild. Auffenberg took the time to measure every tree, every rock identify every bug and parasite in the study area, dissect 100's of animals at different times of year and did extensive behavioral and dietary studies, so when I see people like formica who act as if nothings been studied and nobody has a clue about the ethology of these animals my head starts to boil. To think that ANYONE would dismiss or neglect the years of hard work and dedication some of the early workers did so they could make wild guesses and stabs in the dark bothers me to no end and I get heated.
I don't suffer fools gladly, and you are obviously not a fool Franks. Thanks for the response.
Best.

[Mikoh4792]

Guess the evolution vs creationism conversation was deleted by a mod.

[formica]

[img/img]

are you implying that evolution follows some kind of plan? we're not going to end up talking about creationism are we....

[formica]

incase you are under the impression that evolution responds to the environment to change a species, thats not actually how it works.

Mutations occur in DNA randomly, if that mutation is beneficial to the species, then it becomes part of the species make up, if not, it dies - survival of the fittest, as Darwin called it.

mutations do not arise out of need or requirement, they occur randomly and may or may not be beneficial

[smy_749]

Formica is right with evolution, and thats a rather good way of explaining it I must say. Environmental pressures pick and choose, but they don't create.

[smy_749]

Darwin didnt even like the word evolution actually, and hesitated to use it initially because people hear 'evolve' and believe that the more something evolves, the more advanced and 'better' the species is, which isn't true. Some species dont need to evolve...

[formica]

Darwin didnt even like the word evolution actually, and hesitated to use it initially because people hear 'evolve' and believe that the more something evolves, the more advanced and 'better' the species is, which isn't true. Some species dont need to evolve...

descent with modification he called it, bit of a mouth full haha

I take issue with the word Adaption myself, I feel it has mislead a large number of people into thinking that mutations occur directly in response to the environment to fulfill a particular need of a species

[smy_749]

descent with modification he called it, bit of a mouth full haha

I take issue with the word Adaption myself, I feel it has mislead a large number of people into thinking that mutations occur directly in response to the environment to fulfill a particular need of a species

Everything with evolution is misunderstood honestly. Its one of my favorite topics these days though. One of the major ones is that "People didn't come from chimps and gorillas" that people who never studied it try to educate me on lol Anyways, I don't mean to pull this thread further off course but yea, descent with modification is a better suited phrase, dunno why it never stuck.

[Pirarucu]

are you implying that evolution follows some kind of plan? we're not going to end up talking about creationism are we....I sure hope not, but that does not mean evolution is random.. Mutations are random, evolution is not. Evolution/natural selection is what divides up the beneficial and negative mutations, and wipes out the negatives. It is far from random. If it were, we would have a crap ton of rather useless adaptations.

Now, there are a few theories that evolution and life in general may exhibit self-organizing behaviors, similar to the way crystals fall into regular patterns.. But I won't get into that now.

[formica]

evolution is a random system, operating within a random system - it may appear ordered in the time frame that humans are able to observe, but it is not actually ordered at all

remember Entropy, all things move from Order, to Chaos, evolution is bound by the law of entropy just as everything else is from particals to humans to solar systems.

that said, we are treading very close to semantics here - some meanings of the word Evolution could be said to indicate that it is not random, for eg when humans catalog the evolution of a particular species into a list, however thats half the problem that both myself and smy where eluding to in our previous posts, human perspective on what is useful, positive, negative and beneficial are of no consequence to evolution

[infernalis]

We are NOT going to entertain ANY creationism vs evolution discussions on THIS board.

[KORBIN5895]

But we will openly discuss the theory of evolution?

[infernalis]

But we will openly discuss the theory of evolution?

I do believe that the forum rules say no politics or religion.

I don't recall the rules saying "no evolution"

[Mikoh4792]

I do believe that the forum rules say no politics or religion.

I don't recall the rules saying "no evolution"

Evolution vs creationism doesn't have to be about religion. Although creationism can be attributed to certain religions such as Islam or Christianity, the general idea behind the debate is whether life was created or whether life evolved. You don't need to be religious to believe that life was created by a sentient being.

[Mikoh4792]

evolution is a random system, operating within a random system - it may appear ordered in the time frame that humans are able to observe, but it is not actually ordered at all

remember Entropy, all things move from Order, to Chaos, evolution is bound by the law of entropy just as everything else is from particals to humans to solar systems.

that said, we are treading very close to semantics here - some meanings of the word Evolution could be said to indicate that it is not random, for eg when humans catalog the evolution of a particular species into a list, however thats half the problem that both myself and smy where eluding to in our previous posts, human perspective on what is useful, positive, negative and beneficial are of no consequence to evolution

I agree that we are treading close to semantics. I think we all agree the mutations are random in itself, however when the people in this thread say that evolution is not random, they are referring to the driving force behind evolution which is not. The driving force being natural selection which favors better suited genes for certain situations. People are just misinterpreting each other.

[KORBIN5895]

I do believe that the forum rules say no politics or religion.

I don't recall the rules saying "no evolution"

So you say that evolution is an actual scientifically proven fact or maybe it is something that takes faith to believe.

[franks]

No problem at all Franks, sorry if I was harsh, I'm about the most polite guy you'd ever meet in reality, I just am passionate about varanids and varanid husbandry.
I am flabbergasted when I see people in this age of information acting like nobody has ever studied these animals in the wild. Auffenberg took the time to measure every tree, every rock identify every bug and parasite in the study area, dissect 100's of animals at different times of year and did extensive behavioral and dietary studies, so when I see people like formica who act as if nothings been studied and nobody has a clue about the ethology of these animals my head starts to boil. To think that ANYONE would dismiss or neglect the years of hard work and dedication some of the early workers did so they could make wild guesses and stabs in the dark bothers me to no end and I get heated.
I don't suffer fools gladly, and you are obviously not a fool Franks. Thanks for the response.
Best.

Why then is there such a disconnect between the average keeper of varanids, and the real scientific information that exists and is available to them? Is it that the price tag of certain species does not make buyers feel a dire responsibility to properly support their animals? I met Wayne, because I bought a monitor the same time he got his two and he was balls-to-the-wall invested in learning and duplicating whatever he possibly could about the way they want to live life, and I try to keep all of my animals as realistically as possible. Scientific information may be readily available, but there are numerous layers of nonsense that need to be navigated before getting there and I guess I just do not understand why the nonsense has such a strong foothold in the reptile community.

[formica]

Ben you have no right to dismiss peoples questions or opinions and talk down to them, or behave like a school yard bully just because you know a bit more of the alphabet than the other kids.

You have no right to call someone a fool because they have a diffrent opinion to your own, espcially when that opinion is based on sound scientific principals, you cannot prove to me that UV is not essential, you cannot prove to me that Dormancy is not essential, you cannot prove to me that there are no Parasites alien to the savannahs of Africa which could kill a monitor - there is far more evidence to suggest that all of these things are important to one degree or another, than there is evidence to suggest that they arnt relevant or worth discussing.

You display the typical dogmatic way of dealing with scientific principals that leads to the exact kind of nonsense you claim to be trying to do away with.

I am no fool Ben, and it is a shame you are so wrapped up in your own ego that you cannot bring yourself to discuss anything you dont agree with, like a mature adult. The only people you impress, by behaving and talking this way, are those who have the same agenda as your own - i'm sure Korbin will be along shortly to prove my point.

[B_Aller]

Why then is there such a disconnect between the average keeper of varanids, and the real scientific information that exists and is available to them? Is it that the price tag of certain species does not make buyers feel a dire responsibility to properly support their animals? I met Wayne, because I bought a monitor the same time he got his two and he was balls-to-the-wall invested in learning and duplicating whatever he possibly could about the way they want to live life, and I try to keep all of my animals as realistically as possible. Scientific information may be readily available, but there are numerous layers of nonsense that need to be navigated before getting there and I guess I just do not understand why the nonsense has such a strong foothold in the reptile community.

You bring up some solid questions here franks, I don't know why there is such a disconnect between keepers these days and the information available to them. MY fist guess is lazyness pure and simple. But having spent decades working in the animal industry and being around animal people I think that there is a larger psychological issue at play, meaning almost everyone involved with closely working with animals thinks they are the "true" savior of animals and the only one who has gained insight and that their way is the only way. Most animal people are animal "people" BECAUSE they are not "people" people.

To me there are no layers of nonsense to navigate through the academic literature, it's all good fun and learning as far as I can see. The fun comes in balancing the info against other sources, testing out the theory's and finding ways to APPLY the knowledge. All of this amazing groundwork has been done for us, now we get to do the fun part of making the information applicable to each of our situations and spreading the knowledge.

Unfortunately you are right about the price tag aspect. I've been trying for years to get people to think about reptile keeping in the same way as saltwater aquarium keeping. Meaning you don't go buy an expensive saltwater fish, THEN set up the tank and do the research! Plus when people think of getting into salt water aquariums they know you need three things: Money, Knowledge, time.
With reptiles it's buy the animal first, then the enclosure, then MAYBE learn about them, but most likely just get on a forum and tell everyone how smart you are and how great your one animal is doing...till it dies and you disappear. Precisely why I support a complete ban on the importation of exotic reptiles and a strict permitting system for those species already established.

The nonsense has such a strong foothold because of people like Formica, here is a guy with NO EXPERIENCE, spewing forth mass nonsense before he's done anything or learned anything! And naive people don't know better than to think that just because someone posts a lot they may not actually have any experience.
Imagine being involved in ANY activity...say pole vaulting for example, do you think that when you start you will have the same approach to pole vaulting as you would when you have 1 year experience, or 3 years experience...how about when you've pole vaulted all over the world, competed in contests against other vaulters seen and learned from how others do it, coached a team of vaulters etc..do you think after years of doing it you would have the same knowledge and approach you did when you first started?????
BUT in reptiles, experience and success don't seem to matter, just who can beat his chest and yell the longest (not the loudest!)

And sadly..we do not value intelligent discourse, my guess is it has something to do with insecurity...who knows? Thanks for the discussion.

[infernalis]

So you say that evolution is an actual scientifically proven fact or maybe it is something that takes faith to believe.

Not here... not now...

[KORBIN5895]

Ben you have no right to dismiss peoples questions or opinions and talk down to them, or behave like a school yard bully just because you know a bit more of the alphabet than the other kids.

You have no right to call someone a fool because they have a diffrent opinion to your own, espcially when that opinion is based on sound scientific principals, you cannot prove to me that UV is not essential, you cannot prove to me that Dormancy is not essential, you cannot prove to me that there are no Parasites alien to the savannahs of Africa which could kill a monitor - there is far more evidence to suggest that all of these things are important to one degree or another, than there is evidence to suggest that they arnt relevant or worth discussing.

You display the typical dogmatic way of dealing with scientific principals that leads to the exact kind of nonsense you claim to be trying to do away with.

I am no fool Ben, and it is a shame you are so wrapped up in your own ego that you cannot bring yourself to discuss anything you dont agree with, like a mature adult. The only people you impress, by behaving and talking this way, are those who have the same agenda as your own - i'm sure Korbin will be along shortly to prove my point.

What point? Also what is my agenda? I don't even have a monitor.

[formica]

NO EXPERIENCE

nonsense, i have 20 years experience keeping reptiles, infact.

Oh and how many Savs did you say you had raised to adulthood? was it...none?

You say that proof of your success comes from breeding monitors, and yet zoo's like the Bronx have successfully bred monitors, but you say that they do not know correct monitor care practices? so what should I believe? perhaps I'll just keep asking questions, and you can stick with dogma.

I've never know anyone to get so upset about people questioning things, you have attached your ego to this topic in a way which is not helpful to anyone, espcially considering all the questions are based on the writing of people you claim back up your own assertions.

but once again you are just babbling and waving your ego about, refusing to actually engage in a real discussion, your only way of dealing with it is with personal attacks, over and over again.

[KORBIN5895]

nonsense, i have 20 years experience keeping reptiles, infact.

Oh and how many Savs did you say you had raised to adulthood? was it...none?

You say that proof of your success comes from breeding monitors, and yet zoo's like the Bronx have successfully bred monitors, but you say that they do not know correct monitor care practices? so what should I believe? perhaps I'll just keep asking questions, and you can stick with dogma.

I've never know anyone to get so upset about people questioning things, you have attached your ego to this topic in a way which is not helpful to anyone, espcially considering all the questions are based on the writing of people you claim back up their own assertions.

but once again you are just babbling and waving your ego about, refusing to actually engage in a real discussion, your only way of dealing with it is with personal attacks, over and over again.

I'm pretty sure the "breeding" breeding you are speaking about was actually an imported gravid female.

[B_Aller]

I'm pretty sure the "breeding" breeding you are speaking about was actually an imported gravid female.

If we're talking Bronx zoo here they have had success with mertensi, when Sam Lee was head of reptiles. Long term the Bronx has a poor record of success with varanids. What Bobs report found was that overall their husbandry was seriously lacking. Looking at their new tree monitor exhibits I have to wonder if they've learned their lesson or not?

Not that it matters but for the record I have raised exanthematicus to adulthood, and my experiences were written up and published.
You can see pics of one of my exanthematicus in Mark Bayless's Savannah book, and I shared my husbandry notes and records with Mark for that book.
Mark and I also wrote a book on red tailed boas and we were working on two other books on monitors and monitor husbandry at the time of his death. Maybe someday I'll finish them...who knows?
Best.

[infernalis]

I am going to chime in here.

just about 7 years ago I myself purchased a Savannah Monitor without any research.

The package arrived, I set up a 10 gallon aquarium with some thin substrate on the floor, a hide log and basking lamp. (pretty much the "standard you tube newb" setup)

I was already on some forums, so I promptly and very proudly took pictures and posted them all over the place.

Responses were split, most people were like "so cool, Congratulations" I was happy, I was now a "monitor keeper"???

This lasted right up until I posted on Kingsnake, those folks tore me a new arse fast, and guess what, my first reactions were "these crusty old meanies are picking on me for being new" ...... They were NOT picking on me, and it had nothing to do with being a newb, it had everything to do with my horrible setup, but I was such a proud owner, all of my inexperienced buddies had told me already how cool I was, everyone was ooh and ahh over my walking pictures on a leash...

so why listen to the meanies? after all they were not helping me, they were calling me a lizard killer instead.

Then along came this really loud, really obnoxious man who could care less what my opinion of him was, he barked and bellered at me at every turn.

five years in, the lizard died, my foolish unearned pride was crushed... the grumpy man was right... I did kill my own lizard.

People, listen up... if we are going to learn from each other and stop this lunacy of killing lizards with preventable sicknesses, we need to pay attention to those ahead of us and not get up in their grills when they toss a little experience or knowledge our way.

Please take your off topic arguments to the off topic forums. This thread is specifically about weather or not some scorpions are going to hurt a Nile monitor.

we are now going to return to scorpions as monitor food......

[KORBIN5895]

If we're talking Bronx zoo here they have had success with mertensi, when Sam Lee was head of reptiles. Long term the Bronx has a poor record of success with varanids. What Bobs report found was that overall their husbandry was seriously lacking. Looking at their new tree monitor exhibits I have to wonder if they've learned their lesson or not?

Not that it matters but for the record I have raised exanthematicus to adulthood, and my experiences were written up and published.
You can see pics of one of my exanthematicus in Mark Bayless's Savannah book, and I shared my husbandry notes and records with Mark for that book.
Mark and I also wrote a book on red tailed boas and we were working on two other books on monitors and monitor husbandry at the time of his death. Maybe someday I'll finish them...who knows?
Best.

I was thinking about savs.

[Vegasarah]

Please take your off topic arguments to the off topic forums. This thread is specifically about weather or not some scorpions are going to hurt a Nile monitor.

we are now going to return to scorpions as monitor food......

And just like that.... silence.... Hahahaha. Oh, man. I thought it was all very interesting, to be honest.

Anyone have a copy of any of Auffenberg's trio of books? They are crazy expensive online on Amazon but I really would love to read one if not all three.

Any more thoughts on scorpions would still be greatly appreciated... hah.

[pdomensis]

This is barely related to your post, but a few years ago I was blacklighting for scorpions in St. George and found that certain lichens will fluoresce really beautifully. There were some rocks so covered in different species that it looked like a night club. it would be awesome to have a blacklit viv dressed with those lichens.

[murrindindi]

And just like that.... silence.... Hahahaha. Oh, man. I thought it was all very interesting, to be honest.

Anyone have a copy of any of Auffenberg's trio of books? They are crazy expensive online on Amazon but I really would love to read one if not all three.

Any more thoughts on scorpions would still be greatly appreciated... hah.


Hi, I have copies of his Komodo and Bengal monitor books, let me know what time you`re calling..... :)
If Ben Aller has fed (American) scorpions to his monitors without any health issues that`s good enough for me.
We do get them in Oz but I never fed them to any of my monitors. I think (not sure?) they might actually have them here in the U.K, though I`ve never seen any.
Can you show a few recent photos of your Nile monitor?

[Pirarucu]

I think it is very unlikely you would have any problems feeding scorpions to monitors. They are not fragile animals when they have access to what they need.

[Gregg M]

Not that it matters but for the record I have raised exanthematicus to adulthood, and my experiences were written up and published.
You can see pics of one of my exanthematicus in Mark Bayless's Savannah book, and I shared my husbandry notes and records with Mark for that book.
Mark and I also wrote a book on red tailed boas and we were working on two other books on monitors and monitor husbandry at the time of his death. Maybe someday I'll finish them...who knows?
Best.

I still get all choked up when I see Marks name brought up. The amount of literature at that mans finger tips was amazing to say the least. He was a fountain of knowledge and if he did not know it by heart, he had the literature to find the answer. He was one of the reasons I got into this hobby as deep as I did. He was an asset to this community and one of my great friends. I would love to see you finish the work you and him started. I have a pdf file he sent to me a number of years back of the cryptozoology book he started.

[Donnie]

Hi, I have copies of his Komodo and Bengal monitor books, let me know what time you`re calling..... :)
If Ben Aller has fed (American) scorpions to his monitors without any health issues that`s good enough for me.
We do get them in Oz but I never fed them to any of my monitors. I think (not sure?) they might actually have them here in the U.K, though I`ve never seen any.
Can you show a few recent photos of your Nile monitor?

We have only (as far as I know) the yellow tailed scorpion and it is only found in a couple of places in the UK

[franks]

In the vein of this conversation, has anyone here tried breeding scorpions for their monitor? I have read that they can produce up to 30 young per clutch, but nobody I know has tried breeding them for feeders so I am assuming it is not practical?

[murrindindi]

We have only (as far as I know) the yellow tailed scorpion and it is only found in a couple of places in the UK


Thanks! Hopefully neither of those two places is near where I`m living... :)

[Mikoh4792]

In the vein of this conversation, has anyone here tried breeding scorpions for their monitor? I have read that they can produce up to 30 young per clutch, but nobody I know has tried breeding them for feeders so I am assuming it is not practical?

I think it has to do with the fact that scorpions are carnivores, you would also need a steady supply of crickets or roaches... In that case why not just feed crickets or roaches lol.

[B_Aller]

And just like that.... silence.... Hahahaha. Oh, man. I thought it was all very interesting, to be honest.

Anyone have a copy of any of Auffenberg's trio of books? They are crazy expensive online on Amazon but I really would love to read one if not all three.

Any more thoughts on scorpions would still be greatly appreciated... hah.

Walters books are expensive but worth the investment in my opinion. I'd go for the Bengal book first as Bengals are a more generalized species and the info is applicable to a broader range of species.
I love the grays book and have read it front to back at least three times, but I keep grays so I'm always going back for another look.
The best part of his books can be the bibliography, a really great resource for more learning.
Sadly his family threw out all of his unpublished work when he passed, so what you get is what you get.
I say go for it with the scorps! have fun!!

[B_Aller]

I still get all choked up when I see Marks name brought up. The amount of literature at that mans finger tips was amazing to say the least. He was a fountain of knowledge and if he did not know it by heart, he had the literature to find the answer. He was one of the reasons I got into this hobby as deep as I did. He was an asset to this community and one of my great friends. I would love to see you finish the work you and him started. I have a pdf file he sent to me a number of years back of the cryptozoology book he started.

Hi Gregg,
Yeah I think about Mark everyday have his goofy face staring at me now!
I've got all of Marks collection here (except for the stuff I sent to John) and have been slowly organizing and arranging it for some manner of eventual availability.
I promised his brother I would finish the work we started so I will, just don't have the time to dedicate to it that I'd like.
Best.

[Vegasarah]

Hi, I have copies of his Komodo and Bengal monitor books, let me know what time you`re calling..... :)
If Ben Aller has fed (American) scorpions to his monitors without any health issues that`s good enough for me.
We do get them in Oz but I never fed them to any of my monitors. I think (not sure?) they might actually have them here in the U.K, though I`ve never seen any.
Can you show a few recent photos of your Nile monitor?

I'm TRYING to upload a video to youtube of him from my phone but it's slow going haha. I will try and post to my thread dedicated to him! His growth has slowed way down but he's still growing evvvvvery day. He is also much more confident, you can see that in this video lol. Comes right up out of the enclosure on to the lid just to grab this mouse :)

[Vegasarah]

Walters books are expensive but worth the investment in my opinion. I'd go for the Bengal book first as Bengals are a more generalized species and the info is applicable to a broader range of species.
I love the grays book and have read it front to back at least three times, but I keep grays so I'm always going back for another look.
The best part of his books can be the bibliography, a really great resource for more learning.
Sadly his family threw out all of his unpublished work when he passed, so what you get is what you get.
I say go for it with the scorps! have fun!!

Just dropped the money I would have spent on that book on frozen whole prey items lol! Such is monitor keeping- they are little money pits. Hopefully someone will let me borrow the book!

[infernalis]

No promises, check the library.. never know?? I have found some awesome books at the library.

[Vegasarah]

Just dropped the money I would have spent on that book on frozen whole prey items lol! Such is monitor keeping- they are little money pits. Hopefully someone will let me borrow the book!

Hi, I have copies of his Komodo and Bengal monitor books, let me know what time you`re calling..... :)
If Ben Aller has fed (American) scorpions to his monitors without any health issues that`s good enough for me.
We do get them in Oz but I never fed them to any of my monitors. I think (not sure?) they might actually have them here in the U.K, though I`ve never seen any.
Can you show a few recent photos of your Nile monitor?

I posted a few on his thread, Django the Nile Monitor. Well a short feeding video, I'll put more pics up later.

I would love to borrow them if I could haha! :)

[Vegasarah]

Not to resurrect an old thread- but I've got yet another interesting item that I could feed but don't know if I should...

Turtle and tortoise eggs?

I've got this 13 inch long HUGE turtle (yellow belly slider? maybe red eared?) who lays a bunch of eggs in a pond. I fish them out and usually just throw them out but then it dawned on me that I could probably feed them to my Nile?

I also have access to tons of tortoise eggs. I'm not going to get into how/ why I can get them... but the point is that they shouldn't be encouraged to hatch, and are often discarded and not incubated. Can I feed those too?

I'm really on a roll with all these weird things to feed my monitors haha. >_<

[infernalis]

reptile eggs are #1 for niles. By all means.. feed them if you have them.

[Vegasarah]

reptile eggs are #1 for niles. By all means.. feed them if you have them.

Yaaaay. I wish I had more to share, honestly. Maybe a few of my local monitor keeper friends can buy a few off me now that I've got the Wayne Seal Of Approval on these eggs! ;)

[murrindindi]

Hi, yes, they are a great addition to the diet, though be aware that Varanids cannot digest reptile egg shells.

[Vegasarah]

Hi, yes, they are a great addition to the diet, though be aware that Varanids cannot digest reptile egg shells.

Good to know. So I'll be seeing those shells again in the poop later? Interesting! I've fed stuff like quail eggs and fertile goose eggs and treats in the past and never saw the shells again!

[infernalis]

F2-PYkX1PJE

[Vegasarah]

F2-PYkX1PJE

So awesome. Love Niles <3. This was a cute video, thank you Wayne!

[murrindindi]

Good to know. So I'll be seeing those shells again in the poop later? Interesting! I've fed stuff like quail eggs and fertile goose eggs and treats in the past and never saw the shells again!

Yes, you should see the shell after digestion of the contents, they can digest bird egg shells (obviously providing the conditions support them, which yours do).

[murrindindi]

[youtube]

That`s a great film Wayne, I saw it a few years ago.

[infernalis]

That`s a great film Wayne, I saw it a few years ago.

David Attenborough and monitors all on the same film... It don't get much better.

[smy_749]

David Attenborough and monitors all on the same film... It don't get much better.

I watched the whole thing and rather enjoyed it. Some cool footage, thanks for sharing

[Vegasarah]

Yes, you should see the shell after digestion of the contents, they can digest bird egg shells (obviously providing the conditions support them, which yours do).

That should be like a test to see how healthy a monitor is. Feed it some bird eggs and see how much of it comes out the other end! The lizard with the least shell remains wins! ;)