View Full Version : Feeding a GTP that has reached maximum size
Mikoh4792
08-22-13, 09:59 PM
I know snakes will continue to die until they die but at 6 years of age, it probably will not be that noticeable.
Right now my gtp is big enough to eat large mice, or rat pups. Which would be better nutritionally? Are large mice just old mice that have more fat and are weak?
slowhite03
08-22-13, 11:05 PM
Rats are more meat and mice are more fatty from what I heard
snakeman879
08-23-13, 03:34 AM
Rats ar a better option in my opinion as they ar less fatty and have much more nutrients or so I beleve.
smy_749
08-23-13, 03:44 AM
The which is more nutritional debate is a long one. Chris72 has a nice thread somewhere. If hes not getting bigger and adult mice are a good size, i'd stick with those
EL Ziggy
08-23-13, 08:26 AM
I've often wondered about the feeding of rats vs. mice. So far I haven't seen any solid evidence of the substantial nutritional benefits of either prey. Sounds more like a personal preference. All things being more or less equal, I feed my snakes mostly mice because they're a little less expensive, but I have decided to throw rats in their diets from time to time just for diversity and for an occasional larger meal. I guess it could also depend on the species of snake as I hear some do have a strong preference.
Daniel Natusch did a quick interview at the ICAS symposium and spoke of chondro eating habits. Apparently after all his observation he noticed that the GTP's dont eat birds. In fact the are attracted to the rodents eating what the birds have dropped below nests. Absolutely fascinating for feeding habits.They are coming down from the canopy and hitting these rodents a few feet off the ground. So, with that in mind we know for sure rodents are a very large % of their adult diet. Rats, in general have larger body mass and large skull. Now, pups in my mind are too small an item for an adult chondro, adult mice are usually what most of the large keepers in the US do from what I understand. The problem with anything bigger than an adult mouse, say small rat is that when that skull is hard its much harder for chondros, that are not hydrated properly to defecate. So this skull and heavier bone mass contributes to prolapses. That being said, there are different metabolic rates and different core temps, as well as different locale that seem to do better on lower temps, but still digest quite quick. The occasional small rat would be okay, but unless you are really comfortable with your husbandry and have a really good feel for that animal no harm. Rats for every meal, I personally wouldn't.
lady_bug87
08-24-13, 10:51 AM
my 2yr old is on rat pups (25-30g)
How much does he weigh?
Mikoh4792
08-25-13, 06:20 AM
The problem with anything bigger than an adult mouse, say small rat is that when that skull is hard its much harder for chondros, that are not hydrated properly to defecate. So this skull and heavier bone mass contributes to prolapses. That being said, there are different metabolic rates and different core temps, as well as different locale that seem to do better on lower temps, but still digest quite quick. The occasional small rat would be okay, but unless you are really comfortable with your husbandry and have a really good feel for that animal no harm. Rats for every meal, I personally wouldn't.
So in other words, rats are only bad if husbandry is off?
Mikoh4792
08-25-13, 06:22 AM
my 2yr old is on rat pups (25-30g)
How much does he weigh?
I'll have to find that out when I get a bigger scale. I just fed him a 20g adult mouse and It left a slight bulge.
I'll have to find that out when I get a bigger scale. I just fed him a 20g adult mouse and It left a slight bulge.
Im not saying rats are only bad if the husbandry is off, what I am saying is rats cause many problems so unless you feel you really know your animals and your husbandry, with dew points, temps, ambient humidity and how they all contribute to RI and other problems its best to stay with mice. If your creature has a slight bulge that is PERFECT stick with the mice.
Ive been keeping snakes since 14 years and chondros are a whole different ball game. Head over to MVF forum to check out some threads with much more specific threads. I have a feeling you wont be feeding rats after what people show you happens.
Mikoh4792
08-25-13, 04:33 PM
Im not saying rats are only bad if the husbandry is off, what I am saying is rats cause many problems so unless you feel you really know your animals and your husbandry, with dew points, temps, ambient humidity and how they all contribute to RI and other problems its best to stay with mice. If your creature has a slight bulge that is PERFECT stick with the mice.
Ive been keeping snakes since 14 years and chondros are a whole different ball game. Head over to MVF forum to check out some threads with much more specific threads. I have a feeling you wont be feeding rats after what people show you happens.
Just wanted to get that clear. Yes I probably will just stick to mice since my chondro is pretty much done growing and has no need for bigger prey items.
Could you elaborate on this?
unless you feel you really know your animals and your husbandry, with dew points, temps, ambient humidity and how they all contribute to RI
In the day the humidity is 100% for an hour or so after misting and I just let it dry out to about 65-70% next morning. Any input?
Could you elaborate on this?
In the day the humidity is 100% for an hour or so after misting and I just let it dry out to about 65-70% next morning. Any input?
The higher humidity is for smaller animals usually. I think a lot of keepers have moved away from the Chondro handbook of years ago and you are starting to see an adjustment. First I would say, if defecation is normal eating is normal, the animal isnt fat, no RI dont mess with anything. Different locales seem to all be different in terms of what they like humidity and temp wise. Humidity could go down to 40 for a day or two with no issue. PNG and Indo both get massive wind currents that frequently take the jungle humidity out to sea.
If the animal is adult, you should probably only have to spray once or twice a week if the enclosure holds humidity well. The secret a lot of people are finding now is chondros like temps closer to 85 than the 90 Greg Maxwell used to keep them at years ago WITH LOTS of fresh water. Chondros will drink from water bowls very easily, not just off their coils.
If things are working keep it going.
Remember though, a fat chondro is a unnatural chondro. So stick with mice.
lady_bug87
08-26-13, 05:02 PM
The higher humidity is for smaller animals usually. I think a lot of keepers have moved away from the Chondro handbook of years ago and you are starting to see an adjustment. First I would say, if defecation is normal eating is normal, the animal isnt fat, no RI dont mess with anything. Different locales seem to all be different in terms of what they like humidity and temp wise. Humidity could go down to 40 for a day or two with no issue. PNG and Indo both get massive wind currents that frequently take the jungle humidity out to sea.
If the animal is adult, you should probably only have to spray once or twice a week if the enclosure holds humidity well. The secret a lot of people are finding now is chondros like temps closer to 85 than the 90 Greg Maxwell used to keep them at years ago WITH LOTS of fresh water. Chondros will drink from water bowls very easily, not just off their coils.
If things are working keep it going.
Remember though, a fat chondro is a unnatural chondro. So stick with mice.
I disagree with the bolded part. My female has been on rats for over a year. she has great muscle tone and is sleek and slender as she should be. Animals can get fat on mice just as easy as they can on rats. They key in my opinion is size and frequency.
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I disagree with the bolded part. My female has been on rats for over a year. she has great muscle tone and is sleek and slender as she should be. Animals can get fat on mice just as easy as they can on rats. They key in my opinion is size and frequency.
That's your opinion and to each their own, though I feel it is probably based more on your experience with YOUR animal then 1000s others have raised for 20 years before.
Im sticking with what Greg Stephens, Rico Walder, the Stewarts and the Chondro collective are doing and sticking with mice. They have more experience than anyone are strict mouse advocates.
Substituting 1 rat for two mice isnt a solution. Cage size, as well as feeding frequency also contribute to a 'slender' chondro but overall rats are not the food of choice for these animals among top breeders.
Mikoh4792
08-27-13, 07:36 AM
Substituting 1 rat for two mice isnt a solution. Cage size, as well as feeding frequency also contribute to a 'slender' chondro
Could you elaborate on this?
lady_bug87
08-27-13, 07:41 AM
That's your opinion and to each their own, though I feel it is probably based more on your experience with YOUR animal then 1000s others have raised for 20 years before.
Im sticking with what Greg Stephens, Rico Walder, the Stewarts and the Chondro collective are doing and sticking with mice. They have more experience than anyone are strict mouse advocates.
Substituting 1 rat for two mice isnt a solution. Cage size, as well as feeding frequency also contribute to a 'slender' chondro but overall rats are not the food of choice for these animals among top breeders.
if you have any literature on this I would be happy to read it
Go to MVF forum. Search the forums. There is TONS of literature there. Including the links at the top to Daniel Natusch and his research in PNG and the Iron Range in Nothern Aus.
If you get a chance and have 3 or so hours to learn from the best, listen to the morelia radio conversations with Greg, Buddy and Rico. Greg Stephens convo I think is the one that touches on mice vs rats. A lot of keepers are moving to ASFs due to rat and mice hair tending to stick in the digestive track more.
Hope that helps.
Mikoh4792
08-27-13, 08:21 AM
Go to MVF forum. Search the forums. There is TONS of literature there. Including the links at the top to Daniel Natusch and his research in PNG and the Iron Range in Nothern Aus.
If you get a chance and have 3 or so hours to learn from the best, listen to the morelia radio conversations with Greg, Buddy and Rico. Greg Stephens convo I think is the one that touches on mice vs rats. A lot of keepers are moving to ASFs due to rat and mice hair tending to stick in the digestive track more.
Hope that helps.
Sorry what are ASF's?
lady_bug87
08-27-13, 08:22 AM
African soft fur
Could you elaborate on this?
In short, chondros spend a lot of time moving from the top of the canopy down to the forest floor during the night to "smack" mice and rats. Yes I know I just bashed rats but hear me out, chondros dont know the difference, clearly are going to eat both due to instinct but one food item seems to produce better health results in captivity. This movement contributes to a lot of muscle use, and hunting is not that successful for these creatures so they spend a lot of time cruising to find a great spot. So knowing this, in the captive environment they have a few square feet to move. Not really the best environment to produce muscle tone. So they burn a lot of calories in the wild, and not in captivity. So if you are feeding higher fat food items and the chondros are not moving around a lot you may run into trouble with the chondros digestive system. Harder skulls, large bone mass, bigger hair strands all contribute to the "plugging" up and prolapse of chondros with rats. The more activity, the more the snake is going to digest, the faster the metabolism will move.
Its not to say the chondro can get a rat once and awhile, especially a full grown adult. If the animal is hydrated well and not already overfed there should be no issue. It just seems that over the past 20 or so years most major breeders have moved away from rats because of the problems they have observed in their captive populations.
Mikoh4792
08-27-13, 08:29 AM
African soft fur
Ah I see
Skdjksjdks
Mikoh4792
08-27-13, 08:31 AM
African soft fur
In short, chondros spend a lot of time moving from the top of the canopy down to the forest floor during the night to "smack" mice and rats. Yes I know I just bashed rats but hear me out, chondros dont know the difference, clearly are going to eat both due to instinct but one food item seems to produce better health results in captivity. This movement contributes to a lot of muscle use, and hunting is not that successful for these creatures so they spend a lot of time cruising to find a great spot. So knowing this, in the captive environment they have a few square feet to move. Not really the best environment to produce muscle tone. So they burn a lot of calories in the wild, and not in captivity. So if you are feeding higher fat food items and the chondros are not moving around a lot you may run into trouble with the chondros digestive system. Harder skulls, large bone mass, bigger hair strands all contribute to the "plugging" up and prolapse of chondros with rats. The more activity, the more the snake is going to digest, the faster the metabolism will move.
Its not to say the chondro can get a rat once and awhile, especially a full grown adult. If the animal is hydrated well and not already overfed there should be no issue. It just seems that over the past 20 or so years most major breeders have moved away from rats because of the problems they have observed in their captive populations.
Interesting. I have always thought gtp's were very sedentary creatures. In that case what are some examples of cages that are too small and cage sizes that are ideal?
Interesting. I have always thought gtp's were very sedentary creatures. In that case what are some examples of cages that are too small and cage sizes that are ideal?
I actually use a large rubbermaid for my yearling. Now to most people its way to big but I have a lot of perches and it keeps humidity well, but what I have noticed is that as my hot spots only are 86 or 87 the chondro moves a lot more. Every morning in a different perch, as feeding day approaches. After a feed, then the sedentary behavior sets in for 2 days or so.
For a neo a shoebox rack system works best. Provides the security they need at that small age along with rock steady temps, humidity.
2x2 seems to be the minimum for any animal, though I feel that may be to small for large females. 3x2x2 provides probably the best space ratio for an adult. Cage size has to be functional for the keeper as well.
Mikoh4792
08-27-13, 09:03 AM
I actually use a large rubbermaid for my yearling. Now to most people its way to big but I have a lot of perches and it keeps humidity well, but what I have noticed is that as my hot spots only are 86 or 87 the chondro moves a lot more. Every morning in a different perch, as feeding day approaches. After a feed, then the sedentary behavior sets in for 2 days or so.
For a neo a shoebox rack system works best. Provides the security they need at that small age along with rock steady temps, humidity.
2x2 seems to be the minimum for any animal, though I feel that may be to small for large females. 3x2x2 provides probably the best space ratio for an adult. Cage size has to be functional for the keeper as well.
Seems about right. I keep mine in a 3x2x2 for a second there I thought you were advocating "large" enclosures to stimulate activity.
shaunyboy
08-27-13, 10:52 AM
Rats ar a better option in my opinion as they ar less fatty and have much more nutrients or so I beleve.
heres a link to a great prey nutrition chart.....
Rodent Pro's Nutrient Composition (http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp)
cheers shaun
Lankyrob
08-27-13, 04:16 PM
I kept my GTP in a 4x2x2 and if i ever get another it will have a larger enclosure as he used every inch of the space provided.
Mikoh4792
08-27-13, 10:38 PM
I kept my GTP in a 4x2x2 and if i ever get another it will have a larger enclosure as he used every inch of the space provided.
How big was your GTP? Right now mine is in a 3x2x2 and he only takes up a small part of a corner.
Lankyrob
08-28-13, 06:01 AM
How big was your GTP? Right now mine is in a 3x2x2 and he only takes up a small part of a corner.
Do you watch him all night? Mine appeared to never move, certainly during the day he didnt. Turn the lights off and leave him for half an hour, then tur the light on or use a trch to view him.
Mine at a guestimate was about four to four and a half feet long, his thickest part was maybe slightysmaller than a 500ml coke bottles thickest part.
Mikoh4792
08-28-13, 06:12 AM
Do you watch him all night? Mine appeared to never move, certainly during the day he didnt. Turn the lights off and leave him for half an hour, then tur the light on or use a trch to view him.
Mine at a guestimate was about four to four and a half feet long, his thickest part was maybe slightysmaller than a 500ml coke bottles thickest part.
Ah I see. Thicket part of mine is about 1-1.5" diameter(depending on whether you measure from side to side to belly to spine).
Yes I've seen him cruise around at night. Makes a bit of noise actually, while knocking over the furniture in it's enclosure.
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