View Full Version : Rat poison and snakes
Doug 351
08-19-13, 04:54 PM
Something I've always wondered about: I've poisoned rats and mice before and had rat snakes clean up the mess.My brother said it didn't seem to hurt the snakes to eat the poisoned rats because they were mammals and the snakes were reptiles. He postulated that the active ingredient (Warafin) was a blood thinner and just didn't work the same on reptiles as mammals.
I'm not trying to advocate feeding poisoned rats-just I never found any sick or dead rat snakes after such a scenario ( more than once).
Any thoughts?
StudentoReptile
08-19-13, 05:07 PM
I don't know. I would think "don't do it' to be on the safe side, but I don't know the mechanics of that ingredient and its effect on reptiles.
The absence of sick/dead rat snakes may only be circumstantial. The animal could die somewhere out in teh woods and it does not take long for the forest to remove any evidence. Heck its why I still believe in Bigfoot!
Warfarin acts by blocking a certain clotting pathway. In general, there are 3 pathways to clot your blood. The intrinsic, the extrinsic and the platelets. If you block one pathway, you can still "clot" your blood. Humans need fairly large doses and it takes a few days before there is a clinical effect noted in the patient (measured by a blood test called INR). In rats, warfarin (or another type- the "super-warfarins") cause death in part by hemorrhage. It doesn't take a huge amount to kill a rat. Metabolism of this compound occurs in the liver. By the time the rat dies, it would be expected that a first pass metabolism would have occurred and the toxicity would be diminished. I can speak to human metabolism, I have no clue about reptile liver enzymes, specifically if they even have the CYP enzyme (they prob do, but I can't find anything about it)...
Prob not a great idea overall....I'd just leave the dead rats lay.
marvelfreak
08-19-13, 06:01 PM
Even if it did hurt the snake right away it doesn't mean there couldn't be long term effects.
I mean you never know every time feed one it could be knocking days, weeks, months or even years off their live. I personally would want to risk it harming my snakes.
Doug 351
08-19-13, 10:31 PM
Thanks for the replies. Some missed the point by a little. I would never advocate nor intentionally feed a captive snake a rat known to be killed by poison. Even if it was supposedly safe.My concern was for my wild friends and wether using poison was going to have serious consequences for them.
Although I will still try other methods first-I feel better now about using poison when necessary.
Doug 351
08-19-13, 10:38 PM
I don't know. I would think "don't do it' to be on the safe side, but I don't know the mechanics of that ingredient and its effect on reptiles.
The absence of sick/dead rat snakes may only be circumstantial. The animal could die somewhere out in teh woods and it does not take long for the forest to remove any evidence. Heck its why I still believe in Bigfoot!
So if I quit using rat poison the Bigfoot population will rebound in my neighborhood?
Cool...I love those big trucks!
StudentoReptile
08-20-13, 05:50 AM
So if I quit using rat poison the Bigfoot population will rebound in my neighborhood?
Cool...I love those big trucks!
Sounds logical to me. ;)
Some missed the point by a little.My concern was for my wild friends and wether using poison was going to have serious consequences for them.
Yep, I misunderstood. Sorry :)
sharthun
08-20-13, 07:28 AM
Yep, I misunderstood. Sorry :)
Cool having a doc in the house!:cool:
smy_749
08-20-13, 07:43 AM
Warfarin acts by blocking a certain clotting pathway. In general, there are 3 pathways to clot your blood. The intrinsic, the extrinsic and the platelets. If you block one pathway, you can still "clot" your blood. Humans need fairly large doses and it takes a few days before there is a clinical effect noted in the patient (measured by a blood test called INR). In rats, warfarin (or another type- the "super-warfarins") cause death in part by hemorrhage. It doesn't take a huge amount to kill a rat. Metabolism of this compound occurs in the liver. By the time the rat dies, it would be expected that a first pass metabolism would have occurred and the toxicity would be diminished. I can speak to human metabolism, I have no clue about reptile liver enzymes, specifically if they even have the CYP enzyme (they prob do, but I can't find anything about it)...
Prob not a great idea overall....I'd just leave the dead rats lay.
Oh what do you know anyways! You act like you studied it or something :laugh:
Oh what do you know anyways! You act like you studied it or something :laugh:
I think I did at some point...I've tried to forget "the early years"..
:)
Doug 351
08-20-13, 09:05 AM
I think I did at some point...I've tried to forget "the early years"..
:)
OH-Don't worry you don't have to try. In 10 years you'll have to try to REMEMBER, but won't. I'm not a doctor- but I play one on TV-er I mean with little girls.
Well my opinion can best be summarized by a quote I found "
Warfarin acts by blocking a certain clotting pathway. In general, there are 3 pathways to clot your blood. The intrinsic, the extrinsic and the platelets. If you block one pathway, you can still "clot" your blood. Humans need fairly large doses and it takes a few days before there is a clinical effect noted in the patient (measured by a blood test called INR). In rats, warfarin (or another type- the "super-warfarins") cause death in part by hemorrhage. It doesn't take a huge amount to kill a rat. Metabolism of this compound occurs in the liver. By the time the rat dies, it would be expected that a first pass metabolism would have occurred and the toxicity would be diminished. I can speak to human metabolism, I have no clue about reptile liver enzymes, specifically if they even have the CYP enzyme (they prob do, but I can't find anything about it)...
Prob not a great idea overall....I'd just leave the dead rats lay.
lol It is nice having a doctor in the house. A pleasant occasional break from the hypothetical. Thanks MDT
marvelfreak
08-20-13, 09:28 AM
OH-Don't worry you don't have to try. In 10 years you'll have to try to REMEMBER, but won't. I'm not a doctor- but I play one on TV-er I mean with little girls.
So you play doctor with little girls.:confused: and how old are you?
Doug 351
08-21-13, 10:08 AM
Well- some play with girls -some with leotards and shields....
shaunyboy
08-21-13, 11:59 AM
i would err on the side of caution and NOT feed poisoned prey to a snake
cheers shaun
smy_749
08-21-13, 02:16 PM
i would err on the side of caution and NOT feed poisoned prey to a snake
cheers shaun
Lol , This sums up my opinion
Doug 351
08-21-13, 03:04 PM
i would err on the side of caution and NOT feed poisoned prey to a snake
cheers shaun
Thought we covered this. The point is whether using poison to eliminate rat population problems is harmful enough to wild snakes that harder and less effective methods like mechanical traps should be used.
Hopefully that clears it up.My opinion is that the benefits of poison outweigh the consequences of delayed elimination by other means.
Please re-read the whole thread before posting anything contray.
Then feel free to disagree. ....
marvelfreak
08-21-13, 04:30 PM
Well- some play with girls -some with leotards and shields....
Don't hate! You know you wish you were like me.
N9qYF9DZPdw
Doug 351
08-21-13, 05:24 PM
LMAO-And when I showed it to the little harem they just giggled and giggled. LOL- JK.
SKYlord
08-21-13, 06:24 PM
You're pretty gross Doug.
Doug 351
08-22-13, 04:12 AM
You're pretty gross Doug.
Thanks. Truth is the only female around here is my snake. My cat and fish are both males.
SKYlord
08-22-13, 05:08 AM
That doesn't surprise me.
Doug 351
08-22-13, 10:40 AM
I was married for 25 years and raised a daughter that's been married for about one and a half years. She is expecting her first born in about 6 months.
She has half her head shaved and tattooed and the other half the florescent color of the week.Got quite a few more tattoos and several piercings. She makes a living as a tattoo artist.
Can't imagine where she gets it from. LOL...
But she was a good kid and always got good grades usually straight A's and never less than a B.She was obedient and almost never told a lie.
She never has done drugs and doesn't drink-so I think at 22 she has earned the right to decorate herself however she pleases.
We always had a lot of pets and half of them were female-so I've been around them before, I'm just shorthanded at the moment. I'd settle for one little girl ('bout 50 or so would do) but younger wouldn't hurt.
Now-can I go back to gross...... (less boring).
SKYlord
08-22-13, 06:47 PM
I was married for 25 years and raised a daughter that's been married for about one and a half years. She is expecting her first born in about 6 months.
She has half her head shaved and tattooed and the other half the florescent color of the week.Got quite a few more tattoos and several piercings. She makes a living as a tattoo artist.
Can't imagine where she gets it from. LOL...
But she was a good kid and always got good grades usually straight A's and never less than a B.She was obedient and almost never told a lie.
She never has done drugs and doesn't drink-so I think at 22 she has earned the right to decorate herself however she pleases.
We always had a lot of pets and half of them were female-so I've been around them before, I'm just shorthanded at the moment. I'd settle for one little girl ('bout 50 or so would do) but younger wouldn't hurt.
Now-can I go back to gross...... (less boring).
I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to the fact you said you like playing Dr with little girls.
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