How sure are we that Savs are Diurnal?

[formica]

I'm starting to think that perhaps they arnt, several times now, 3-4 locusts that where remaining in the enclosure at lights out, have all vanished by lights on in the morning, theres no way for them to escape the enclosure, although there are plenty of places for them to hide, but thats not really what locusts do during the day

I've often thought I'd heard noises coming from the enclosure at night, difficult to tell for sure when theres a small zoo in the room tho, and I dont have any IR cameras to setup and find out for sure

any thoughts?

Lghts go out on the enclosure at 9pm, I tend to either be working or watching TV in the room until 11/12ish, and theres definitly no activity during that time, my Sav is pretty noisy during the day when he's chasing food around - he could be eating them after I goto sleep I guess

[infernalis]

I can't say, I know mine have no set schedule. (neither do I)

One theory I have is that burrowing animals have dark anytime they want it.. and if they can see in a burrow, I would imagine moonlight or starlight must be like high noon (vision wise)

[formica]

I can't say, I know mine have no set schedule. (neither do I)

One theory I have is that burrowing animals have dark anytime they want it.. and if they can see in a burrow, I would imagine moonlight or starlight must be like high noon (vision wise)

could be! cant find much information on it, light isnt the only way that animals can find their way around of course, heat/IR are another important part of a reptiles navigation system, and of course their tounge in the case of monitors and snakes

I've not noticed any major reflections coming from my Savs eyes when taking photos, this is often a good indicator than an animals eyes are adapted to night vision (like with cats/owls etc) - need to find out more!

Do your monitors follow any schedule at all even without an on/off photoperiod? Mine is pretty specific, wakes up at 11am, goes to bed at 7pm, like clockwork, lights are on 9am-9pm, occasionally i've seen him up and about at 8:30-9pm, but only 3-4 times in total, but we've had a pretty hot summer over the last few weeks, which may have been why

[infernalis]

I peek in at random times, and sometimes I see one out, both or none.

I sleep in broken chunks (Look at the time stamps on my posts here) so I check on them at all hours.

[murrindindi]

I peek in at random times, and sometimes I see one out, both or none.

I sleep in broken chunks (Look at the time stamps on my posts here) so I check on them at all hours.

Hi Wayne, I thought you left the basking heat (lights?) on 24/7, in which case there`s always decent illumination.

[murrindindi]

As far as is known, Varanids do NOT have good "night vision", but their very sophisticated chemosensory adaptations would make it fairly easy to at least navigate in the dark.
As far as hunting`s concerned, that`s another matter (I doubt they do for the most part, at least in the "pitch dark")?

[B_Aller]

Exanthematicus is primarily crepuscular. In captivity they will often choose a more secure time for foraging or activity (read- when your not around) exactly why we try to get people to offer optimum conditions round the clock.
There was an extensive study done on the eyes and brain stems of exanthematicus and their cranial nerve system published in 1988 (Heleen Barbas -Henry) as well as one on slavator and exanthematicus done in 1982 (Wolters)

[infernalis]

Hi Wayne, I thought you left the basking heat (lights?) on 24/7, in which case there`s always decent illumination.

Yes Stefan there is. The point I was making, the clock means nothing to them....

[formica]

I do understand your logic infernalis, and it seems that its a fairly common practice that doesnt appear to have any negative consequences at this time

my Sav is active at very specific times, with no real concern about my presence, except when I am making too much noise, his activity runs from 2hrs after lights on, upto 2hrs before lights out, this suggests to me that a day/night cycle is at least not a bad thing to implement (with the exception of the unconfirmed possibility that he's also active at night sometimes), animals are adaptable, I cant see any reason why they could not adapt to non stop availability of basking time

have there been any specific studies into the effect on Savs, of the day/night cycle? its not uncommon for some animals to alternate their day/night cycle, cats (again) for eg will operate at alternating times in their territories, depending on the activity of other cats in the area, so as to avoid conflict as much as possible - although cats are not strictly diurnal

[infernalis]

I am curious about the study too.

An observation I have made is that whenever I enter the room, even if they are underground, it does not take long for them to surface.

Apparently, they can sense the vibrations of the floor when people enter, and have associated that with the possibility of a treat offering.

[formica]

I am curious about the study too.

An observation I have made is that whenever I enter the room, even if they are underground, it does not take long for them to surface.

Apparently, they can sense the vibrations of the floor when people enter, and have associated that with the possibility of a treat offering.

seems to be a common observation amongst Sav owners, mine hasnt shown any direct interest in my appearance near the enclosure, although when i first got mine, he very quickly figured out feeding time, which I kept regular, and he was always ready and waiting at those times, at other times he got on with digging around, basking, sleeping etc without paying me much attention at all

recently i've changed my behaviour, feeding times are not at regular intervals (except breakfast, he gets a handful of locusts or crickets as soon as lights go on). now rather than focusing on certain times for feeding, I sit with my arm inside the enclosure for 20-30minutes at random times, and then he gets a treat, along with more insects, he hasnt yet worked out what I'm doing, but he no longer waits to be fed at specific times, this has been going on for about 5 weeks now - the idea is to see how quickly he will change his association from time based feeding, to my presence and feeding, he does appear to have lost the time association for now

[DeadlyDesires]

in my experience with mine, wheni turn off all his lights at night he goes down in his hole and "goes to bed" but as soon as i turn the lights on he comes running out and there is not "set" time i turn them off... not matter when or how long i leave them on. hes out basking and chilling in the light until i turn out the lights.

[nepoez]

in my experience with mine, wheni turn off all his lights at night he goes down in his hole and "goes to bed" but as soon as i turn the lights on he comes running out and there is not "set" time i turn them off... not matter when or how long i leave them on. hes out basking and chilling in the light until i turn out the lights.

Mine is the same... no lights equals sleep. Lately the basement became pitch black when lights are off and he ends up getting stuck outside his burrow. He can't find his way to his burrow. So I left a night light on, now when lights are off, he can find his way to the borrow and sleep. He comes out after lights come on in the morning. but I did turn it on a few times to do some maintnance and he comes out too in the middle of the night.

[formica]

Mine is the same... no lights equals sleep. Lately the basement became pitch black when lights are off and he ends up getting stuck outside his burrow. He can't find his way to his burrow. So I left a night light on, now when lights are off, he can find his way to the borrow and sleep. He comes out after lights come on in the morning. but I did turn it on a few times to do some maintnance and he comes out too in the middle of the night.

interesting, I remeber once very early on, before my Savs routine was established, one night in the early hours of the morning, my Sav was still perched on his basking log, I thought this was strange at the time, but it only happened once so I didnt think more about it, I assumed that as he was warm enough, and the room was pitch black, he just felt comfortable sleeping 'in the open', although he did head under his favorite log not long after the lights had come on in the room

[B_Aller]

have there been any specific studies into the effect on Savs, of the day/night cycle? l

Yes, and there have been studies done on the effects of day/night cycles on monitors in captivity, some of these studies and accidental tests are what lead to the modern husbandry practice of offering 24/7 heating light.
There have also been studies done specific to the paretrial (sp?) eye and it's effect on behavior and it's chemical processes with the brain.

[formica]

Yes, and there have been studies done on the effects of day/night cycles on monitors in captivity, some of these studies and accidental tests are what lead to the modern husbandry practice of offering 24/7 heating light.
There have also been studies done specific to the paretrial (sp?) eye and it's effect on behavior and it's chemical processes with the brain.

i'm intrigued as to the results and observations which led to the idea that 24/7 was more beneficial than a natural cycle, have u got links/refs or know who carried out the study so i can find it myself?

[B_Aller]

i'm intrigued as to the results and observations which led to the idea that 24/7 was more beneficial than a natural cycle, have u got links/refs or know who carried out the study so i can find it myself?

As I said before, do the work buddy, if you're going to disrespect everyone with experience and post topics such as this without even bothering to do the most basic research, why should I hand it to you on a platter?
All the studies I mentioned are easy to find, try starting off with the big names in monitor research and read the bibliography's, then track down that info and digest, rinse lather, repeat.
Start with Auffenberg, bengalensis is the most "generic" species he studied, read the book, check out the biblio, go from there.
Or just give me a bunch more crap and see if that makes me want to help you, choice is yours.
Ben

[nepoez]

As I said before, do the work buddy, if you're going to disrespect everyone with experience and post topics such as this without even bothering to do the most basic research, why should I hand it to you on a platter?
All the studies I mentioned are easy to find, try starting off with the big names in monitor research and read the bibliography's, then track down that info and digest, rinse lather, repeat.
Start with Auffenberg, bengalensis is the most "generic" species he studied, read the book, check out the biblio, go from there.
Or just give me a bunch more crap and see if that makes me want to help you, choice is yours.
Ben

I think this response is counter productive to this forum :(
It doesn't hurt anyone to give out as much info as we can in the forum does it? I'm here to learn and this forum is a great resource, why bother having a forum if the answer is "go do your own research" double :( :mad: :unibrow:

[KORBIN5895]

I think this response is counter productive to this forum :(
It doesn't hurt anyone to give out as much info as we can in the forum does it? I'm here to learn and this forum is a great resource, why bother having a forum if the answer is "go do your own research" double :( :mad: :unibrow:

I actually think his answer was awesome and spot on.

[B_Aller]

I think this response is counter productive to this forum :(
It doesn't hurt anyone to give out as much info as we can in the forum does it? I'm here to learn and this forum is a great resource, why bother having a forum if the answer is "go do your own research" double :( :mad: :unibrow:
So it's not productive to try and give someone information on where to look unless you spell it all out for them? I did just give a short cut to finding this info, how do you think I got it? I'm tired of people like the op making wild baseless statements without bothering to do even the easiest most basic research.
I've spent years trying to give out and teach this info to peole just like this poster, guess what happens, they don't bother reading or learning just trying to find someway to make the info fit their pre-concieved ideas and use it to argue. The few serious people who will bother to find the info and digest it are the ones worth helping, the others are a waste. Try banging your head against a wall for 20 years and see how you feel?
How hard is it to read a biblio and track down the info?....in this day and age? It's all right there at your fingertips, how much more help do you need?

[formica]

my ignore list grows every day.

[B_Aller]

See what I mean Nepoez? You have to find some way of culling the herd otherwise you waste a lot of time. Some people are passionate and excited to learn and share, others want to know it all and fight it out. For me I'd like to help progress this hobby and have invested years and hundreds of thousands of dollars learning about these animals and helping to spread info. I came to this site because I was asked to write articles for some herp magazines and wanted to see where the state of husbandry is in the private sector and how I could find the best language to help spread info. This type of poster is a distraction to the learning process in my opinion, and I knew if I made him jump through even the easiest non- flaming hoop it would end poorly, too bad I was right.
I am interested in sharing info and helping people, just not in wasting a bunch of time. Like the saying goes...."you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
Best.
Ben

[murrindindi]

I think this response is counter productive to this forum :(
It doesn't hurt anyone to give out as much info as we can in the forum does it? I'm here to learn and this forum is a great resource, why bother having a forum if the answer is "go do your own research" double :( :mad: :unibrow:


Hi, maybe you need to check "Formica`s" response to members asking him to provide some evidence of his assertions ("go look for yourselves)"!
If that individual keeps putting the more experienced and knowledgeable members on his ignore list how do you suppose his monitor will cope even short, let alone long term?

[formica]

if you dont have anything to add to this discussion, then (go away and stop wasting space on this thread).

[murrindindi]

my ignore list grows every day.

You ignore the people who can help you help your animal, that makes sense to me, sport..... :wacky:

[murrindindi]

if you dont have anything to add to this discussion, then (go away and stop wasting space on this thread).

If that was in response to my post, quoting it would be better (clearer as to who you`re addressing)?
I`ve asked you a number of reasonable questions and you`ve responded by either ignoring them or calling me arrogant and patronising if you do respond. I`ve offered a number of answers, almost all have been ignored. Your loss, and more to the point, the animal`s.....

[Mikoh4792]

if you dont have anything to add to this discussion, then (go away and stop wasting space on this thread).

Once you start a thread, it becomes public and anyone has the right to post here. Not taking sides, just putting it out there.

[formica]

i'm not interesting in discussing things with people who feel the need to wave their genitals about, simply because they dont like being questioned. nor do I like discussing things with people who are only interested in launching personal attacks rather than contributing to the thread, bored of you too. another notch on my ignore list

[B_Aller]

I`ve asked you a number of reasonable questions and you`ve responded by either ignoring them or calling me arrogant and patronising if you do respond. I`ve offered a number of answers, almost all have been ignored. Your loss, and more to the point, the animal`s.....

For Neopez: this is another great example of why progress is so slow in this hobby, here we have an experienced keeper (Murrindindi, Steffan) really trying his best to share his experience and knowledge (and from what I've seen in a much more patient style than me!) being told to "shut up" by a guy with no experience and no success, how does that progress the hobby or help spread good info? questioning the status quo is great, but until you have a basic understanding of the captive care of these animals, it's damaging to make assumptions and conclusions based on little to no evidence or experience.
You will see people like Steffan and I disagree on some aspects of husbandry but we can discuss our points and even agree to disagree because we both have a solid grasp of the basics. Formica does not and is just arguing to argue, exactly why I won't hand him anything on a silver platter.
Experienced keepers know that you don't have to agree to get along.
Varied viewpoints are welcomed, as long as they are backed with experience or knowledge.
Best.

[Mikoh4792]

i'm not interesting in discussing things with people who feel the need to wave their genitals about, simply because they dont like being questioned. nor do I like discussing things with people who are only interested in launching personal attacks rather than contributing to the thread, bored of you too. another notch on my ignore list

Where is all this coming from? There is so much hypocrisy and irony in this post. Just look at the discussion in the other thread about savannah monitors and you did everything you are complaining about in this post.

[KORBIN5895]

Well my company is getting better and better everyday.

You guys have both been way kinder than I ever would be. Unfortunately I saw this clowns tendencies long ago. Good luck with those that want to learn.

[Lankyrob]

i'm not interesting in discussing things with people who feel the need to wave their genitals about, simply because they dont like being questioned. nor do I like discussing things with people who are only interested in launching personal attacks rather than contributing to the thread, bored of you too. another notch on my ignore list

When you first joined here i really thought you would be a valuable part of the community. Unfortunately i seems more like you are here to stir up trouble and rile those that are well respected for their knowledge and experience.

Each time you add some one to your ignore list you lose the respect of everyone here.

[KORBIN5895]

When you first joined here i really thought you would be a valuable part of the community. Unfortunately i seems more like you are here to stir up trouble and rile those that are well respected for their knowledge and experience.

Each time you add some one to your ignore list you lose the respect of everyone here.

Uhoh. You're next....

[nepoez]

For Neopez: this is another great example of why progress is so slow in this hobby, here we have an experienced keeper (Murrindindi, Steffan) really trying his best to share his experience and knowledge (and from what I've seen in a much more patient style than me!) being told to "shut up" by a guy with no experience and no success, how does that progress the hobby or help spread good info? questioning the status quo is great, but until you have a basic understanding of the captive care of these animals, it's damaging to make assumptions and conclusions based on little to no evidence or experience.
You will see people like Steffan and I disagree on some aspects of husbandry but we can discuss our points and even agree to disagree because we both have a solid grasp of the basics. Formica does not and is just arguing to argue, exactly why I won't hand him anything on a silver platter.
Experienced keepers know that you don't have to agree to get along.
Varied viewpoints are welcomed, as long as they are backed with experience or knowledge.
Best.

Hi I guess I'm here to learn and I filter out the noise sometimes. But what I mean is instead of taking it personally, if Formica is asking some questions, and you answer the post, you are actually answering future viewers who search up this thread(e.g. me :) ). So you are in fact not handing Formica the information on a silver platter, but rather, you are contributing to the community. And those who are here purely for the knowledge you have to offer will have lots to gain. By taking this personally with Formica, you end up losing the chance to spread useful info to hundreds of people who will benefit from it. However I do notice you still ended up giving out some pointers at the end of your reply. But I'm sure you know what my point is.

[formica]

When you first joined here i really thought you would be a valuable part of the community. Unfortunately i seems more like you are here to stir up trouble and rile those that are well respected for their knowledge and experience.

Each time you add some one to your ignore list you lose the respect of everyone here.

how have I stirred up trouble? by asking questions, rather than just accepting what people tell me? is it really wrong to want to know why something is right, rather than just that it is right? do you really expect me to put up with personal attacks by people who take offense, simply because I want to know why something is true, rather than take their word for it?

I cannot believe that the moderators of this forum have allowed this thread to go from 1 page of interesting discussion, to 2 pages of attacks and egomania.

[Mikoh4792]

how have I stirred up trouble? by asking questions, rather than just accepting what people tell me? is it really wrong to want to know why something is right, rather than just that it is right? do you really expect me to put up with personal attacks by people who take offense, simply because I want to know why something is true, rather than take their word for it?

I cannot believe that the moderators of this forum have allowed this thread to go from 1 page of interesting discussion, to 2 pages of attacks and egomania.

Again, loads of hypocrisy and irony.

[murrindindi]

I cannot believe that the moderators of this forum have allowed this thread to go from 1 page of interesting discussion, to 2 pages of attacks and egomania.


I must agree, but hopefully they`ll have a close look at many of your responses and decide you`re of no benefit to the community....

[franks]

I am curious about the study too.

An observation I have made is that whenever I enter the room, even if they are underground, it does not take long for them to surface.

Apparently, they can sense the vibrations of the floor when people enter, and have associated that with the possibility of a treat offering.

I have noticed mine does this as well. Whenever I feed him my dog comes and sits half in the cage to watch. Now, when my dog walks up the the cage my monitor will emerge as well.

Formica- I definitely have heard the noises at night. Mine does most of his digging with the lights off. Every day there are new burrows, and old ones have piles of leaves stuffed in front of the holes covering them up. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have "caught" my monitor making burrows. I can say confidently that my monitor is active at "dark." However, most of this activity is done within the first hour or so of "lights out" and some ambient light does influence the enclosure during this time. Rarely, but enough to mention, I have heard noises of him doing monitor things very very late and in pitch black. Disclaimer- my roach colonies are on top of my monitor enclosure and they are much more active at night. It is possible that this influences my monitor's nocturnal activity.

[formica]

I have noticed mine does this as well. Whenever I feed him my dog comes and sits half in the cage to watch. Now, when my dog walks up the the cage my monitor will emerge as well.

Formica- I definitely have heard the noises at night. Mine does most of his digging with the lights off. Every day there are new burrows, and old ones have piles of leaves stuffed in front of the holes covering them up. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have "caught" my monitor making burrows. I can say confidently that my monitor is active at "dark." However, most of this activity is done within the first hour or so of "lights out" and some ambient light does influence the enclosure during this time. Rarely, but enough to mention, I have heard noises of him doing monitor things very very late and in pitch black. Disclaimer- my roach colonies are on top of my monitor enclosure and they are much more active at night. It is possible that this influences my monitor's nocturnal activity.

interesting your Sav seems to respond to your dog aswell, does it have any fear for the dog? the few times I've let my cat near the enclosure its sent my Sav running for cover

someone else has mentioned noticing their Savs burrow changing over night, as you describe, entrances being opened/closed (might have been you on a diffrent thread?)

I also wondered if the close proximity of my feeder colonies had an influence, previously I had noticed my Sav being very interested in a tank full of locusts when it was sat next to the enclosure (he culdnt see the locusts, but they where making a fair amount of noise running/hopping around)

[KORBIN5895]

I have noticed mine does this as well. Whenever I feed him my dog comes and sits half in the cage to watch. Now, when my dog walks up the the cage my monitor will emerge as well.

Formica- I definitely have heard the noises at night. Mine does most of his digging with the lights off. Every day there are new burrows, and old ones have piles of leaves stuffed in front of the holes covering them up. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have "caught" my monitor making burrows. I can say confidently that my monitor is active at "dark." However, most of this activity is done within the first hour or so of "lights out" and some ambient light does influence the enclosure during this time. Rarely, but enough to mention, I have heard noises of him doing monitor things very very late and in pitch black. Disclaimer- my roach colonies are on top of my monitor enclosure and they are much more active at night. It is possible that this influences my monitor's nocturnal activity.

I bet if you told him you were humoring him he'll block you too.

[franks]

I don't know if he would block me or not. Formica and I have "strongly" disagreed over stuff before, but I try to be respectful towards everyone. (as much as possible lol)

Regarding dog: This is very interesting to me. My monitor is completely 100% comfortable around my dog. More so than he is around my wife or company. My dog is calm around him, but very very fascinated and involved with the monitor when he is permitted. My monitor acknowledges he is there, but is behavior does not change at all and he is perfectly normal with the dog, even if he is outside of his enclosure. This is not a monitor that was force handled, or treated like a kitten the way some people on youtube handle their monitors. I raised him strictly the way MDF monitor's trust building videos represent. Tong feeding and gradual acclimation. The one difference is that my monitor has always been housed in the busiest room of my house and has always had alot of glass in the enclosure. I think this helped him acclimate.

[DeadlyDesires]

My monitor is also fine with my dogs as well. i let him out of the enclosure for a little bit and let him run around my kitchen i think its more my dogs are afraid of him lol they sit right at the edge of the kitchen and the livingroom and just watch him.. when he gets close they stretch as far out as possible to smell him like "wtf is that?" lol.. its funny :D

[formica]

seems that monitors can adapt well to different environments and the other animals/people that occupy them - i'm taking the same 'bribery with treats approach', and trying not behave too quietly around him, in the hope that he will get used to a normal level of activity without it causing undue stress

my cat is still staying well away however, for its own safety as much as my Savs peace of mind lol (he's just over 1 and still very much a curious kitten)

[formica]

seems unusual nocturnal behaviour is being documented in other monitors too, this one adapting its behaviour to an easy source of food



http://varanidae.org/7_1.pdf



i've rearranged my setup, moving the feeders and other noisey creatures away from my Sav enclosure, most of the noises I've been hearing where not coming from my Sav, and i've been leaving food in a bowl to try and keep track of what is being eaten, none of which has been touched over night, but does get demolished not long after lights on. so perhaps my Sav isnt active at night, or it could be the slightly cooler temps now, heat wave has left the UK finally and night temps in the enclosure are 24-25, as opposed to 28C+ during the heatwave