Introduction and inquiry

[E-Tech Todd]

greetings everyone
My name is Todd and Eco is my Savannah Monitor
I am moderately experienced with caring for reptiles but have a broad range of experience with many exotic animals
Eco is our shop mascot. We rescued him about 2yrs ago from an owner that was just trying to offload him and clearly should not have owned a monitor to begin with.
He gets LOTS of attention and is well cared for.
As with my experience with other exotics, I try to foster his natural instincts as well as socialization and truly strive to give him a well rounded spectrum of experience.
I am almost finished with a new habitat and look forward to posting pics

I have one concern that I am hoping to get help with
I recently went to Eco in his cage, and to my horror, half of his tail had broken off!
I felt extremely guilty because we just went through a mad rush of business and I had not been as attentive to him as normal.
My guess was that he had become dehydrated. Is this correct?
I would greatly appreciate any insight so that I can avoid any future misshaps

With great respect
Todd

[murrindindi]

Hi, can you put a few photos up of the monitor, and give some details of the temps and humidity, heating/lighting, size and type of enclosure, substrate type and depth, etc? Thanks!

[E-Tech Todd]

Hi Murrindindi
His current enclosure is 6'w x 2'h x 2'd
Temp is generally 80 - 95 with 70-85% humidity
southern California offers us the opportunity to keep that pretty constant with little effort
Basking area has day and night lamps that are timer controlled
100 watt day...75 watt night
18" overhead florescent UV
For the substrate I use a combination of reptile sand and the bark chip kind
forgive me I cant recall what the actual name of it is
the depth varies but in general I keep it about one inch deep

His new enclosure will be 4'w x 5'h x 2.5' d
multi level for climbing
numerous hides
large dig bowl for mealworms etc
2' x 1.5' filtered and circulating pool
secondary small drinking dish on upper level
1 day and 2 night basking spots timer controled

I will post some pics shortly

[smy_749]

Hi Murrindindi
His current enclosure is 6'w x 2'h x 2'd
Temp is generally 80 - 95 with 70-85% humidity
southern California offers us the opportunity to keep that pretty constant with little effort
Basking area has day and night lamps that are timer controlled
100 watt day...75 watt night
18" overhead florescent UV
For the substrate I use a combination of reptile sand and the bark chip kind
forgive me I cant recall what the actual name of it is
the depth varies but in general I keep it about one inch deep

His new enclosure will be 4'w x 5'h x 2.5' d - Not long enough and too high
multi level for climbing-Not really arboreal, substrate and room to run is more important
numerous hides
large dig bowl for mealworms etcThe entire enclosure should be a dig bowl, enough to burrow in
2' x 1.5' filtered and circulating poolnot necessary,30 qt rubbermaid will do the trick and easy to clean
secondary small drinking dish on upper level
1 day and 2 night basking spots timer controled Why two spots at night and only one in the day? Also you need 45-60 watt flood lamps suspended 6-8 inches from the basking area, not 100 or 75 watt bulbs higher up. This maintains humidity much better

I will post some pics shortly


Hope that helps a bit

[murrindindi]

Hi Murrindindi
His current enclosure is 6'w x 2'h x 2'd
Temp is generally 80 - 95 with 70-85% humidity
southern California offers us the opportunity to keep that pretty constant with little effort
Basking area has day and night lamps that are timer controlled
100 watt day...75 watt night
18" overhead florescent UV
For the substrate I use a combination of reptile sand and the bark chip kind
forgive me I cant recall what the actual name of it is
the depth varies but in general I keep it about one inch deep

His new enclosure will be 4'w x 5'h x 2.5' d
multi level for climbing
numerous hides
large dig bowl for mealworms etc
2' x 1.5' filtered and circulating pool
secondary small drinking dish on upper level
1 day and 2 night basking spots timer controled

I will post some pics shortly


Hi again, thanks for the details!
You basically need to know just two temps; the SURFACE at the basking site @ between approx 50 to 60c (120 to 140f), then the coolest ambient (air) @ approx 24c (75f).
The tube you`re using may be too far above the animal @ 18inches, what type is it?
It`s best to use a soil/playsand mix for substrate, it`s trial and error, but start around 70% soil to 30% playsand, it must be very well tamped down and slightly moist so it holds a burrow, and at least 15 to 22cm deep (6 to 9inches).
Obviously as the monitor grows over the next few months you`ll need more depth.
I agree the best type of heat bulbs are the low wattage halogens (flood, not spot). I think you might only need two @ 40w, raise/lower them or the basking object `til you get the desired surface temp (or fit a dimmer switch).
What are the usual ambient temps in the room the enclosure`s in (day and night)?

[E-Tech Todd]

Thanks so much for the input
I actually designed the new enclosure based on his personality and behavior,
while I do understand it is not typical...Eco is a climber
He climbs EVERYTHING. LOL
And as far as room to run around? Generally he has free reign of the shop.
We did limit him to the showroom area to keep him out of harms way in the factory...
but he absolutely LOVES being with us...and will often get upset if we are in a different room.
Honestly he is more like a dog than any monitor I have ever seen
He quite literally DEMANDS attention and will oftem climb up into my lap to be pet
he has even gone so far as to climb up on the couch and plop down next to me "snuggling" as I napped

He is quite the character

[infernalis]

Please read.....

Correct Savannah Monitor Care (http://www.savannahmonitor.net)

Running around the shop & your caging is shortening lifespan deeply.

[E-Tech Todd]

Thanks Infernalis
I knew much of this...especially the feeding humidity etc
the smaller cluster of lights is a great tip
Unfortunately an enclosure of that size is not possible...so I am doing the best I can with what I have
I am also not operating in a vacuum
A very close friend of mine is a DFW officer and runs an exotic animal rescue center with a large number of endangered animals and a broad range of large lizards. Up to and including Komodos

Comparatively...when we rescued him he was in a 20gal fish tank with a half log, one lamp, a water bowl and no substrate at all

While I appreciate your concern... He will live far longer and have a significantly greater quality of life than he could possibly have had prior
Instead of telling me everything I am doing wrong...
how about suggestions to maximize the quality of what is available

I appeal to you guys as having more expertise...but please understand I am not without knowledge or experience.
I fully acknowledge that mine is not even remotely close to yours though

So... knowing my limitations...
suggestions for maximization?

I was thinking I could pull off three inches of substrate overall...possibly packing the very bottom hide with and extra inch
the lights are very close to the optimum distance you recommend and I will lower the wattage and turn the other basking area into a daylight one as well
The 18" florescent was recommended to provide UV regardless of basking...I can leave it out if you guys feel it is unnecessary
Remember too that I am in Southern California, so the atmosphere of the shop is nearly identical to the recommended temp and humidity for those times he is out and about

as always
with much respect
Todd

[KORBIN5895]

I am not without knowledge or experience.


Everything you have said proves this statement to be false. The fact that your sav is so dehydrated that its tail broke off screams of inexperience and lack of knowledge.

Do you go to the doctor, let him diagnose your problem and once he gives you the proper solution tell him he is wrong and you have experience because you've had the problem for two years?

This site has some of the world's leading experts on monitors yet when they give you advice you claim to have experience and knowledge? Sorry but that's like telling a group of Hell's Angels that you've done hard time because your mommy put you on time out when you were naughty.

[E-Tech Todd]

Wow...
Since some cant seem to read for any other reason than to be rude and insulting...
let me clarify

I stated CLEARLY that he had not been getting the kind of attention he normally gets and that is when it happened...my responsibility and my error...NOT lack of anything other than time

however...as to my lack of knowledge and inexperience...
we have had him for over 2 1/2 years and this is the first time there has been ANY problems whatsoever.
When we rescued him he was 2 yrs old ...undersized, mal nourished, unsocialized, and severely neglected

SINCE THEN he has grown over a foot, he is socialized, active and a joy to have around
I also NEVER said anyone was WRONG. Quite the contrary
I simply stated that an "optimum" habitat setup was not possible and asked for suggestions to optimize the existing ircumstances


Anyone else feel the need to be rude, insulting, unhelpful and unwelcoming?
if so...please at least have actually READ the posts

I came here for the love of my animal and to seek guidance from the experts
to make the best of what is available
not to be insulted by people who dont even take the time to know what they're talking about

As always
much respect

[Mikoh4792]

E-tech todd, just because your monitor is in better care than it would be in if it was with it's previous owners, does not mean your care is acceptable.

Better does not equal good. Someone else could have taken him in and given him everything he needed.

Comparatively...when we rescued him he was in a 20gal fish tank with a half log, one lamp, a water bowl and no substrate at all

Unfortunately an enclosure of that size is not possible...so I am doing the best I can with what I have

I don't mean to be rude, but I will be straight forward. If it's minimum requirements can not be met, you should hand the animal over to someone can can give it what it needs. Again, doing the best you can does not mean you are doing good. If a D+ is the best score a student can achieve, it does not make it a good score.

[formica]

Wow...
Since some cant seem to read for any other reason than to be rude and insulting...
let me clarify

I stated CLEARLY that he had not been getting the kind of attention he normally gets and that is when it happened...my responsibility and my error...NOT lack of anything other than time

however...as to my lack of knowledge and inexperience...
we have had him for over 2 1/2 years and this is the first time there has been ANY problems whatsoever.
When we rescued him he was 2 yrs old ...undersized, mal nourished, unsocialized, and severely neglected

SINCE THEN he has grown over a foot, he is socialized, active and a joy to have around
I also NEVER said anyone was WRONG. Quite the contrary
I simply stated that an "optimum" habitat setup was not possible and asked for suggestions to optimize the existing ircumstances


Anyone else feel the need to be rude, insulting, unhelpful and unwelcoming?
if so...please at least have actually READ the posts

I came here for the love of my animal and to seek guidance from the experts
to make the best of what is available
not to be insulted by people who dont even take the time to know what they're talking about

As always
much respect

people on this forum have quite specific ideas about what constitutes good monitor care, and unfortunetly are frequently unable to convey that information without said insults, dont take it personally, they are like that to everyone! stick around tho, they arnt a bad bunch really ;)

to be clear, monitor care is still experimental, and no-one on this forum has kept a Savannah monitor alive for 20 years, let alone the estimated potential of 40 years

There are 2 diffrent schools of thought on monitor care, one is that they should have 2 feet of soil and the other is that they can live comfortable lives without

what everyone agrees on, is that the nesting/sleeping area should be very high humidity, 80%, and that basking temperatures should be very high, around 130F, and that the general ambient temperatures should not be too cold and the ambient humidity should not go much below 50% - if the humidity is too low, then it can be detrimental to your Savs health, to the point of death

How you maintain the humidity and temperatures is up for debate imo, it is certainly easier, in a large sealed enclosure with 2 feet of soil, however 20 years of keeping reptiles and large tropical ant colonies has taught me that there are other ways to maintain high humidity and temperatures - but, I am only on my first Sav, since june this year, I am certainly not an expert on monitor care, many people on this forum have many years more experience, although none have kept a monitor alive to an old age as far as I am have been able to ascertain.

Many people believe that Savs should be allowed to dig their own burrows, and they certainly like to do that, although it has to be noted that in the wild, Savs make frequent use of dead trees as nests - baring in mind that humidity in Ghana averages 80-90%+ for most of the year - and that is the key imo, humidity must be very high

the other issue around soil, is females that need to lay eggs, they can and do become egg bound if they cant digg a nest for egg laying, this is not an issue for your male of course

[KORBIN5895]

Wow...


I stated CLEARLY that he had not been getting the kind of attention he normally gets and that is when it happened...my responsibility and my error...NOT lack of anything other than time




I came here for the love of my animal and to seek guidance from the experts
to make the best of what is available
not to be insulted by people who dont even take the time to know what they're talking about

As always
much respect

Unfortunately your current problem could've been completely avoided if you actually had a proper setup. So when you couple an inadequate setup with neglect this is what happens.

You can call me rude, mean, illiterate or whatever you wish but it doesn't change the truth and the truth is that your poor husbandry is slowly killing you beloved pet and your pride is standing in the way.

[KORBIN5895]

I am certainly not an expert on monitor care, many people on this forum have many years more experience, although none have kept a monitor alive to an old age as far as I am have been able to ascertain.


You should talk to crocdoc about this as he would really surprise you I think.

[infernalis]

I simply put the data out there, if it gets used great...

[formica]

I simply put the data out there, if it gets used great...

theres no doubting the data, and I'd agree that if humidity cannot be maintained without 2 feet of soil, then 2 feet of soil should be used regardless of its inconvenience to the owner

1 inch of substrate is certainly not enough to maintain 80% humidity for nesting, even in California

[smy_749]

theres no doubting the data, and I'd agree that if humidity cannot be maintained without 2 feet of soil, then 2 feet of soil should be used regardless of its inconvenience to the owner

1 inch of substrate is certainly not enough to maintain 80% humidity for nesting, even in California


I thought the point of 2 feet of substrate was so that they could choose which levels of humidity they want by making their own burrows. From what you've said, it seems as though you think ambient humidity should be maintained at 80% all the time and if you could achieve it than 1 inch would be acceptable?

Also to the OP, what do you mean by having a social monitor?

[formica]

I thought the point of 2 feet of substrate was so that they could choose which levels of humidity they want by making their own burrows. From what you've said, it seems as though you think ambient humidity should be maintained at 80% all the time and if you could achieve it than 1 inch would be acceptable?

Also to the OP, what do you mean by having a social monitor?

thats not what I said at all.

It would not be possible to (maintain) an 80% humidity level with 1 inch of subtrate in the size of enclosure that a monitor requires and at the tempretures required.

all the readings I have been given regarding the humdity inside nests have ranged from 80% to 100%. Given that a monitor (should) also be offered hides above ground, in both the cool and warm areas, humidity options are always available in diffrent ranges....of course a humidity gradient should be provided, that is 101 reptile care, not specific to monitors



and lets not even go into 'social' monitors, it is very clear that some monitors actually enjoy human contact and interaction, regardless of care issues

[Toothless]

thats not what I said at all.

It would not be possible to (maintain) an 80% humidity level with 1 inch of subtrate in the size of enclosure that a monitor requires and at the tempretures required.

all the readings I have been given regarding the humdity inside nests have ranged from 80% to 100%. Given that a monitor (should) also be offered hides above ground, in both the cool and warm areas, humidity options are always available in diffrent ranges....of course a humidity gradient should be provided, that is 101 reptile care, not specific to monitors



and lets not even go into 'social' monitors, it is very clear that some monitors actually enjoy human contact and interaction, regardless of care issues

While some monitors may seek out and interact with their owners, the fact that the OP states the monitor seeks him out and snuggles makes me believe it doesn't have an adequate basking surface temp and is therefore seeking out the owner to find heat. I just cannot see a properly heated monitor 'snuggling' with anyone...

To the OP- what is the SURFACE temp of your basking surface (measured with a temp gun)? If the monitor has constant access to a basking spot of at least 130F then I take back the above.

Also to the OP- I would listen to the advice given. These guys suffer from day one from improper husdandry, and the fact that he was kept in sub-par conditions before you got him makes it even more important for everything to be spot-on now. If not, it's unlikely that this guy will last more than another year or two. One day he will suddenly go off his food and start loosing weight- by that time there will be nothing more you can do for him. Not saying this to be dramatic in any way, just stating the facts.
I know you say space is an issue, but would it be possible to build a 6 x 3 x 4? That really doesn't take up much more space than what you were planning, and would be much better. Then just throw in 2 feet of sandy soil, get a proper basking spot set up, and you're ready to go.
As for climbing- my guy LOVEs to climb and has multiple levels in his enclosure. 5 feet high is not excessive, but makes it a bit more difficult to get proper ambient temps if the enclosure is not insulated and the room temp drops.
While it may appear that people are being rude, we are just trying to give you the information you need to keep your monitor healthy. All too often people come on here with situations similar to yours and their monitors usually don't last very long if they don't take into consideration the advice given. These guys are not hard to look after, but do have strict requirements that if not met will result in a dead monitor eventually. I have lots of experience with other reptiles, but these guys are in there own category when it comes to care.

[formica]

While some monitors may seek out and interact with their owners, the fact that the OP states the monitor seeks him out and snuggles makes me believe it doesn't have an adequate basking surface temp and is therefore seeking out the owner to find heat. I just cannot see a properly heated monitor 'snuggling' with anyone...

To the OP- what is the SURFACE temp of your basking surface (measured with a temp gun)? If the monitor has constant access to a basking spot of at least 130F then I take back the above.

Also to the OP- I would listen to the advice given. These guys suffer from day one from improper husdandry, and the fact that he was kept in sub-par conditions before you got him makes it even more important for everything to be spot-on now. If not, it's unlikely that this guy will last more than another year or two. One day he will suddenly go off his food and start loosing weight- by that time there will be nothing more you can do for him. Not saying this to be dramatic in any way, just stating the facts.
I know you say space is an issue, but would it be possible to build a 6 x 3 x 4? That really doesn't take up much more space than what you were planning, and would be much better. Then just throw in 2 feet of sandy soil, get a proper basking spot set up, and you're ready to go.
As for climbing- my guy LOVEs to climb and has multiple levels in his enclosure. 5 feet high is not excessive, but makes it a bit more difficult to get proper ambient temps if the enclosure is not insulated and the room temp drops.
While it may appear that people are being rude, we are just trying to give you the information you need to keep your monitor healthy. All too often people come on here with situations similar to yours and their monitors usually don't last very long if they don't take into consideration the advice given. These guys are not hard to look after, but do have strict requirements that if not met will result in a dead monitor eventually. I have lots of experience with other reptiles, but these guys are in there own category when it comes to care.

I couldnt imagine a wolf snuggling with a human, and yet, there are millions of dogs around the world, many of which at this very moment are snuggled up to their owners waiting to be scratched, chased, fed and loved


I'm not disputing the requirement for at least 130F basking tempretures, but to dismiss the trait of interaction with humans, as bad care, is a closed minded approach

I've been reading peoples reports on caring for their monitors, some have aggresive wild animals, some have affectionate and playful pets, I do not bother reading anything by people who keep their monitors at low temps with low humidity, but I still find playful and intelligent monitors wherever I look, just as often as I find fiesty and grumpy ones

[infernalis]

My monitors know me well, and scratch the living crap out of my arms if I try to hold them for longer than a few seconds.

[Mikoh4792]

I couldnt imagine a wolf snuggling with a human, and yet, there are millions of dogs around the world, many of which at this very moment are snuggled up to their owners waiting to be scratched, chased, fed and loved


Wolves are social by nature, and have limbic systems allowing for such "emotions". It is not right to compare wolves to monitors.

[formica]

Wolves are social by nature, and have limbic systems allowing for such "emotions". It is not right to compare wolves to monitors.

any more than it is right to say that monitors cannot enjoy interaction with a human unless they are not cared for properly

[infernalis]

It's difficult to say that any reptile truly "enjoys" human companionship.

How can we really know? I think the language barrier is in the way. :)

[Mikoh4792]

any more than it is right to say that monitors cannot enjoy interaction with a human unless they are not cared for properly

No I don't think you get it. Wolves are able to be social/emotional because it is in their nature. They actually have a limbic system in the brain which allows for these "emotions".

You are saying that it is very clear that some monitors enjoy human contact. Could you prove this? Or is it just that you interpret some monitor behaviors to be an indication of enjoying human interaction?

Again, it is not right to compare the emotional/social capabilities of wolves to monitor. I never said monitors can not enjoy interaction, I am just not convinced of that they can because no evidence is put forth supporting that claim.

[formica]

No I don't think you get it. Wolves are able to be social/emotional because it is in their nature. They actually have a limbic system in the brain which allows for these "emotions".

You are saying that it is very clear that some monitors enjoy human contact. Could you prove this? Or is it just that you interpret some monitor behaviors to be an indication of enjoying human interaction?

Again, it is not right to compare the emotional/social capabilities of wolves to monitor. I never said monitors can not enjoy interaction, I am just not convinced of that they can because no evidence is put forth supporting that claim.

limbic system has nothing to do with it, I'm not talking about complex emotional responses, a reptile does not need a highly developed hippocampus to enjoy its dinner, any more than it needs a highly developed frontal cortex to decide wether or not it wants to chase a locust or sleep.

of course I am interpreting what I see, as humanity has not yet mastered the art of talking to animals, that is all anyone can do, I think it is fair to assume, that if an animal repeats interactions with a human, rather than running away, then it is ''enjoying'' the interaction, regardless of wether or not it is capable of writing a thesis on the neurological processes it is experiencing.

as for evidence, I dont have the time, inclination or need to prove anything, I know what I have seen and read, its upto you, if you are genuinely interested, to go and deciede out for yourself...this forum is not the only source of information thats worth reading

[B_Aller]

to be clear, monitor care is still experimental, and no-one on this forum has kept a Savannah monitor alive for 20 years, let alone the estimated potential of 40 years

There are 2 diffrent schools of thought on monitor care, one is that they should have 2 feet of soil and the other is that they can live comfortable lives without


How you maintain the humidity and temperatures is up for debate imo, it is certainly easier, in a large sealed enclosure with 2 feet of soil, however 20 years of keeping reptiles and large tropical ant colonies has taught me that there are other ways to maintain high humidity and temperatures - but, I am only on my first Sav, since june this year, I am certainly not an expert on monitor care, many people on this forum have many years more experience, although none have kept a monitor alive to an old age as far as I am have been able to ascertain.


Formica, you seem to be treating your assumptions and lack of knowledge as fact, this is dangerous. You seem to be unaware of the majority of the academic work done on varanids for the last 40-60 years and the history of varanids in captivity.
Monitor husbandry is far from experimental, you act as if the work done over the last decades is arbitrary or guesswork as apposed to being based on actual results.
We have thousands of verifiable reports complete with data and pictures of husbandry that has failed and husbandry that works, we have a base line basic understanding of the captive requirements of these animals, you seem to desperately want this hobby to still be in the dark ages, I'd suggest that you get some experience under your belt before offering advice as yours is based off a lack of knowledge or experience.

I'm glad that you are so interested and passionate, but you seem to want to make everything 10x more difficult than needed. Once you've bred a varanid species to generations you will find that the important husbandry parameters are quite different than you are espousing.

I've kept monitors for over 20 years, bred several species to generations, had a few females die of old age. My advice to you is to do the work before offering advice. You will find that after 5 years of keeping you will have a totally different skill set and knowledge base to work form and your techniques will change, then after 10 years they will change again and so on. The husbandry details you are focusing on are misguided and based off a lack of knowledge of the history of this hobby.
I can show you pics of over 100 keepers who shared your focus on questionable details while ignoring the accepted husbandry parameters, all to the detriment of their animals.
Do the work, then share the results, then offer advice.
Best.
Ben

[Mikoh4792]

limbic system has nothing to do with it, I'm not talking about complex emotional responses, a reptile does not need a highly developed hippocampus to enjoy its dinner, any more than it needs a highly developed frontal cortex to decide wether or not it wants to chase a locust or sleep.

of course I am interpreting what I see, as humanity has not yet mastered the art of talking to animals, that is all anyone can do, I think it is fair to assume, that if an animal repeats interactions with a human, rather than running away, then it is ''enjoying'' the interaction, regardless of wether or not it is capable of writing a thesis on the neurological processes it is experiencing.

as for evidence, I dont have the time, inclination or need to prove anything, I know what I have seen and read, its upto you, if you are genuinely interested, to go and deciede out for yourself...this forum is not the only source of information thats worth reading


Yes it is fair to assume, however assumptions don't make things true. You did however pass this off as fact when you said " some monitors clearly enjoy human contact"

Sorry but you are the one who needs to do the research because you are the one who brought this matter on the table. If you are going to give advice on monitors to the OP and leave a statement saying monitors clearly enjoy human contact, you better be able to back it up when questioned about it, otherwise what you say is invalid.

[formica]

Yes it is fair to assume, however assumptions don't make things true. You did however pass this off as fact when you said " some monitors clearly enjoy human contact"

Sorry but you are the one who needs to do the research because you are the one who brought this matter on the table. If you are going to give advice on monitors to the OP and leave a statement saying monitors clearly enjoy human contact, you better be able to back it up when questioned about it, otherwise what you say is invalid.

nonsense, I accept my assumption as fact, because there is ample evidence so support the assumption, for anyone to find if they can be bothered to look for it.

did i claim to be writing a peer reviewed scientific paper? no, are you going to present any peer reviewed scientific evidence to support your assertion that monitors do not enjoy human interaction? no? I see ;)

[Mikoh4792]

nonsense, I accept my assumption as fact, because there is ample evidence so support the assumption, for anyone to find if they can be bothered to look for it.

Okay, I am done. You are incapable of logical thought.

[Mikoh4792]

did i claim to be writing a peer reviewed scientific paper? no, are you going to present any peer reviewed scientific evidence to support your assertion that monitors do not enjoy human interaction? no? I see ;)

I don't expect your evidence to be on that level, just something to support your claim.... such as examples.

Also, I never said monitors do not enjoy human interaction. I am asking you how you are sure they do, because I am not convinced with the lack of evidence. There is a difference.

[formica]

I don't expect your evidence to be on that level, just something to support your claim.... such as examples.

Also, I never said monitors do not enjoy human interaction. I am asking you how you are sure they do, because I am not convinced with the lack of evidence. There is a difference.

I already said, if an animal repeats an interaction with a human, and consistently returns to said human to interact with them, and does not run away or hide or show any signs of defensive or aggressive behaviour, then it can be said to ''enjoy'' the interaction, it can also be said that their is a ''bond'' between the monitor and the human

there is no other way to measure it, as you already said, they are not capable of complex emotional responses in the way that humans are, there are no psychological profile questionnaires they can fill out to give a quantitative answer. besides they cant hold a pen.

I have seen many monitors and their owners interacting in positive ways, that is my evidence - just because some monitors are aggressive and uninterested in interacting with humans, beyond snatching food, does not mean they are incapable of developing that kind of bond, regardless of how apperntly limited their emotional capacity is

[Mikoh4792]

I already said, if an animal repeats an interaction with a human, and consistently returns to said human to interact with them, and does not run away or hide or show any signs of defensive or aggressive behaviour, then it can be said to ''enjoy'' the interaction, it can also be said that their is a ''bond'' between the monitor and the human

there is no other way to measure it, as you already said, they are not capable of complex emotional responses in the way that humans are, there are no psychological profile questionnaires they can fill out to give a quantitative answer. besides they cant hold a pen.

I have seen many monitors and their owners interacting in positive ways, that is my evidence - just because some monitors are aggressive and uninterested in interacting with humans, beyond snatching food, does not mean they are incapable of developing that kind of bond, regardless of how apperntly limited their emotional capacity is


Would you say the same thing can be said for snakes?

You are entitled to your assumptions, but I think it would be safer to assume that those behavioral patterns are just a result of being more comfortable/not threatened than actually enjoying human contact. Most animals who do have the capacity to enjoy interaction with other animals even in the simplest form are that way by nature, usually because they are social animals. Monitors however have no need for enjoying interaction, why would nature give it the ability to do so?

[murrindindi]

theres no doubting the data, and I'd agree that if humidity cannot be maintained without 2 feet of soil, then 2 feet of soil should be used regardless of its inconvenience to the owner

1 inch of substrate is certainly not enough to maintain 80% humidity for nesting, even in California


Hi, the "two feet of substrate rule" isn`t because it`s the only way to achieve a certain level/range of humidity, they need somewhere where the eggs will be protected and develop in the most suitable conditions which also include temps, substrate type, etc, etc.
And by the way, 2 ft is just a figure, some species may require more depth, some less.
As far as I know no Varanid species deposits eggs in one inch of substrate (or wherever else they may choose to drop them), that would be a recipe for disaster, in captivity it would almost certainly lead to the female dying of reproductive failure at some point (sooner rather than later).
As the OP has a male (I assume that`s a reliable assertion), something less than 2 feet of substrate isn`t necessarily going to mean the animal will suffer and die long before it`s time.
I would advise approx 38 to 45cm (15 to 18inches) depth for an adult (male), but naturally if more can be provided, add it.

[formica]

Would you say the same thing can be said for snakes?

You are entitled to your assumptions, but I think it would be safer to assume that those behavioral patterns are just a result of being more comfortable/not threatened than actually enjoying human contact. Most animals who do have the capacity to enjoy interaction with other animals even in the simplest form are that way by nature, usually because they are social animals. Monitors however have no need for enjoying interaction, why would nature give it the ability to do so?

reptile brains produce dopamine, therefore it is inaccurate to say that any reptile does not have any need, or the capacity, for enjoyment. The only reason a human enjoys something, is because its brain interacts with dopamine to produce pleasurable sensations, the same is true of most vertebrates, including monitors - if a monitors brain associates positive outcomes when interacting with a human, it will have a dopamine response, it will experience pleasure, it will, enjoy, the interaction.

[Mikoh4792]

therefore it is inaccurate to say that any reptile does not have any need, or the capacity, for enjoyment.

I never said this.

[formica]

Hi, the "two feet of substrate rule" isn`t because it`s the only way to achieve a certain level/range of humidity, they need somewhere where the eggs will be protected and develop in the most suitable conditions which also include temps, substrate type, etc, etc.
And by the way, 2 ft is just a figure, some species may require more depth, some less.
As far as I know no Varanid species deposits eggs in one inch of substrate (or wherever else they may choose to drop them), that would be a recipe for disaster, in captivity it would almost certainly lead to the female dying of reproductive failure at some point (sooner rather than later).
As the OP has a male (I assume that`s a reliable assertion), something less than 2 feet of substrate isn`t necessarily going to mean the animal will suffer and die long before it`s time.
I would advise approx 38 to 45cm (15 to 18inches) depth for an adult (male), but naturally if more can be provided, add it.

omg just read my posts properly FFS I wrote more than the first 2 lines

[formica]

I never said this.

make your mind up Mikoh, either you dont think monitors can enjoy human interaction, or you do, you cant have your cake and eat it mate

[murrindindi]

I`ve been reading peoples reports on caring for their monitors, some have aggresive wild animals, some have affectionate and playful pets, I do not bother reading anything by people who keep their monitors at low temps with low humidity, but I still find playful and intelligent monitors wherever I look, just as often as I find fiesty and grumpy ones


Hi, if you can show me 1 ((ONE) single Varanid of any species that is beyond any doubt "affectionate and playful" I`d be most grateful, I`m sure many others would be too.
Are monitors capable of becoming "trusting" of their keeper, sometimes to a ridiculous degree, it seems so (even when properly supported)....
Thank you for not being anthropomorphic, it makes a nice change! :D

[Mikoh4792]

make your mind up Mikoh, either you dont think monitors can enjoy human interaction, or you do, you cant have your cake and eat it mate

That is not true. I'll use another topic as an example. Anyone reading this please do not turn this into a religious debate since it is not allowed. For the sake of argument, if you don't believe in a god, it does not mean you think a god can not exist. It simply means not enough evidence was put forth to convince you. As far as that person is concerned, he is "neutral".

In the same way, I never said monitors can not feel enjoyment from human interaction. The only reason why I got into this discussion is because you passed that assertion off as a fact by saying "clearly". No, clearly not. They are only assumptions made by interpretations and should not be considered to be real phenomena until proven so.

[Mikoh4792]

Hi, if you can show me 1 ((ONE) single Varanid of any species that is beyond any doubt "affectionate and playful" I`d be most grateful, I`m sure many others would be too.
Are monitors capable of becoming "trusting" of their keeper, sometimes to a ridiculous degree, it seems so (even when properly supported)....
Thank you for not being anthropomorphic, it makes a nice change! :D

This is what I mean. The best assumption we can make is that the animal is comfortable or trusting of our presence. We should not cross the line by saying it clearly enjoys us, or is affectionate and playful.

[formica]

I dont have to prove anything to any one, if you want to disagree, its upto you to prove that I am wrong, personally I couldnt care less what you believe, you are both hiding behind semantics, and not bothering to read posts fully before showing your distaste at the fact someone has a diffrent opinion to your own.

You clearly havent spent much time reading anything about peoples personal experiences with monitor temprements, apart from those found on this forum which support your own closed minded approach to the subject.

thats fine, if you want to believe that monitors are incapable of feeling enjoyment, despite their well developed dopamine response as found in most animals, thats upto you, but dont go demanding evidence when you are unable and unwilling to provide any to back up your own claims and dissmissive attitudes. I'm so bored of it.

[B_Aller]

I dont have to prove anything to any one.

You clearly havent spent much time reading anything about peoples personal experiences with monitor temprements, apart from those found on this forum which support your own closed minded approach to the subject.


I've read some of your posts over the last few weeks and I'd say it is YOU who have not done the proper research or reading on the history of these animals in captivity and the outcome for these animals or owners. You also show an almost complete lack of knowledge of the academic literature or the work done over the last 40-60 years.
You do have something to prove as you are an inexperienced keeper offering questionable advice and observations.

[murrindindi]

I stated CLEARLY that he had not been getting the kind of attention he normally gets and that is when it happened...my responsibility and my error...NOT lack of anything other than time

however...as to my lack of knowledge and inexperience...
we have had him for over 2 1/2 years and this is the first time there has been ANY problems whatsoever.
When we rescued him he was 2 yrs old ...undersized, mal nourished, unsocialized, and severely neglected

SINCE THEN he has grown over a foot, he is socialized, active and a joy to have around
I simply stated that an "optimum" habitat setup was not possible and asked for suggestions to optimize the existing circumstances



Hi again, half the tail falling off seems to suggest a relatively long term problem, they do not voluntarily drop their tails as some other lizards do (caudal autotomy). Obviously I am guessing here, but it`s possible the degeneration started with perhaps unshed skin, over time that would constrict the blood flow, the tip would die, if there was infection it would continue along the tail. You need to get the monitor to a vet for a thorough checkup.
You mention "optimum habitat setup" cannot be provided, I prefer the word "supportive", without that the animal surely has no long term future.
To fully support the animal you need to provide a controlled environment that offers a certain range of temps and humidity, and a nutritious whole prey diet, all of which will allow the monitor to function efficiently (EASY)! :)
The enclosure size is smaller than recommended, but if the conditions are in place it should work.

[Mikoh4792]

Now isn't this childish. Let's take one step at a time, shall we?

I dont have to prove anything to any one, if you want to disagree, its up to you to prove that I am wrong, personally I couldnt care less what you believe, you are both hiding behind semantics, and not bothering to read posts fully before showing your distaste at the fact someone has a diffrent opinion to your own.

I am not hiding behind semantics, you are just warping my arguments. For example, I never said monitors couldn't feel enjoyment from human interactions, yet you wrongly quoted me for saying that no reptile could feel enjoyment from human interaction.

Yes you do have to prove the assertion if you are going to pass it off as fact. You are not above us, if you bring an assertion to the table that is questionable, prove it.

I do not have distaste at the fact that you disagree with me. I want you to prove your assertions. Now you are making even more assumptions.

You clearly havent spent much time reading anything about peoples personal experiences with monitor temprements, apart from those found on this forum which support your own closed minded approach to the subject.

What is closed minded about my approach? Here I am asking for evidence. That means if you show evidence of your assertions to be true, I have no choice but to be convinced of your argument. That doesn't sound close minded to me.

thats fine, if you want to believe that monitors are incapable of feeling enjoyment, despite their well developed dopamine response as found in most animals, thats upto you, but dont go demanding evidence when you are unable and unwilling to provide any to back up your own claims and dissmissive attitudes. I'm so bored of it.

Again, you warp my arguments. I never said any of this.... and yet you want to talk about semantics? Ironic.

[formica]

I've read some of your posts over the last few weeks and I'd say it is YOU who have not done the proper research or reading on the history of these animals in captivity and the outcome for these animals or owners. You also show an almost complete lack of knowledge of the academic literature or the work done over the last 40-60 years.
You do have something to prove as you are an inexperienced keeper offering questionable advice and observations.

so me suggesting high basking temperatures and high humidity is wrong is it? what exactly is questionable about my advise?

I've done plenty of research, I have given my monitor the option to dig his own burrow, or use a temperature and humidity controlled nesting box, guess which one he picked? not the one he was ''supposed'' too thats for sure, even so, he will have the option to dig until he/she is an adult and has made his intentions clear. His tempreture and humidity gradients are within recomended specs, he feeds well and his very active, so what excatly have I missed?

Or perhaps you are just posting to have a go, rather than having any real interest in a discussion?

[formica]

Now isn't this childish. Let's take one step at a time, shall we?



I am not hiding behind semantics, you are just warping my arguments. For example, I never said monitors couldn't feel enjoyment from human interactions, yet you wrongly quoted me for saying that no reptile could feel enjoyment from human interaction.

Yes you do have to prove the assertion if you are going to pass it off as fact. You are not above us, if you bring an assertion to the table that is questionable, prove it.

I do not have distaste at the fact that you disagree with me. I want you to prove your assertions. Now you are making even more assumptions.



What is closed minded about my approach? Here I am asking for evidence. That means if you show evidence of your assertions to be true, I have no choice but to be convinced of your argument. That doesn't sound close minded to me.



Again, you warp my arguments. I never said any of this.... and yet you want to talk about semantics? Ironic.

monitors are reptiles, incase you hadnt realized, and they have dopamine receptors aswell. I cant even be bothered to read the rest of it.

[Mikoh4792]

monitors are reptiles, incase you hadnt realized, and they have dopamine receptors aswell. I cant even be bothered to read the rest of it.

Then don't, it's only your loss.

[B_Aller]

so me suggesting high basking temperatures and high humidity is wrong is it? what exactly is questionable about my advise?

I've done plenty of research, I have given my monitor the option to dig his own burrow, or use a temperature and humidity controlled nesting box, guess which one he picked? not the one he was ''supposed'' too thats for sure, even so, he will have the option to dig until he/she is an adult and has made his intentions clear. His tempreture and humidity gradients are within recomended specs, he feeds well and his very active, so what excatly have I missed?

Or perhaps you are just posting to have a go, rather than having any real interest in a discussion?

You have one animal and no success but you state your opinion as if it's fact. You trivialized and marginalized the information given to you to delve into useless detail and argue husbandry approaches you haven't even tested. You are a problem keeper in my opinion, you have no experience yet you want to prove everyone wrong without doing the work.
You have made the suggestion that modern husbandry approach should be questioned and that proven results should be ignored in favor of your untested theories. Again, you have one animal and no success. Do the work, then share the results. THEN offer advice. Until then you are muddying the waters. There is plenty to share and discuss without offering your opinion as if it is proven fact.

[smy_749]

How you maintain the humidity and temperatures is up for debate imo, it is certainly easier, in a large sealed enclosure with 2 feet of soil, however 20 years of keeping reptiles and large tropical ant colonies has taught me that there are other ways to maintain high humidity and temperatures - but, I am only on my first Sav, since june this year, I am certainly not an expert on monitor care, many people on this forum have many years more experience, although none have kept a monitor alive to an old age as far as I am have been able to ascertain.



Don't forget what you posted. Don't forget that Dr. Fry, Dr. David kirshner, and Daniel bennett post on these forums as well before you make heavy accusations like that. You have had your monitor for 2 months....Ben (BAller) has been keeping his olivaceous for how long? Dr. kirshners varius...how long?

You are getting too excited about what you've begun to understand. Its great to ask questions, but you shouldn't throw the people who gave you all your monitor husbandry ideas under the boss so quickly without realizing what they've done for the hobby or you would be keeping your sav in a screen top 40 breeder with sand for substrate without guys like these, and others.

[formica]

Don't forget what you posted. Don't forget that Dr. Fry, Dr. David kirshner, and Daniel bennett post on these forums as well before you make heavy accusations like that. You have had your monitor for 2 months....Ben (BAller) has been keeping his olivaceous for how long? Dr. kirshners varius...how long?

You are getting too excited about what you've begun to understand. Its great to ask questions, but you shouldn't throw the people who gave you all your monitor husbandry ideas under the boss so quickly without realizing what they've done for the hobby or you would be keeping your sav in a screen top 40 breeder with sand for substrate without guys like these, and others.

I dont know, how long have they been keeping them, and what ages have their monitors achieved? I've asked the question time and time again, but never been given an answer, except that 15 is considered old, and in the wild they can live much longer - I'm not denying their expertise or experience - but if there is a diffrence of upto 25 years in captive and wild life spans, then I dont see how anyone can deny that something isnt quite right yet?


instead of discussing the possible issues, people seem far more interested in dismissing my suggestions and threads with rude and patronizing comments, along with some down right idiotic statements.

at least I am trying to learn, and improve on a formula which is known to halve the potential life expectancy of the animals it is designed to care for, despite the fact that it does increase the life expectancy compared to the aforementioned method of a glass tank and sand.


I would also like to point out, that DB's own website (mampam), directly contradicts some of the methods promoted on this forum, so does his book on occasion, a fact that some seem happy to overlook, when it suits their argument

[B_Aller]

Formica-wrong again.
Daniels work does not contradict modern husbandry approach it supports it, and this forum is by no means the front line of varanid husbandry, this is a hobby site.
I'm not suggesting that you are promoting old school glass tank husbandry, but you sure as heck aren't espousing modern husbandry approach when you undermine suggestions for deep substrate or promote UV lighting as essential or suggest that varanids seek out human companionship.
From where I sit you don't seem to want to learn, rather to teach. Learning is great, but it takes time. One of my favorite quotes from an old school herper is this: "it is impossible to understand an event while it is in fact happening, true understanding comes only after the fact....if it comes at all"

You have not supported any varanid through life cycle events much less groups of them. once you gain that type of experience, your arguments here will seem petty.

You state over and over that you have done research and reading but your grasp of the work of both the academics and the hands on captive crowd is tenuous at best.
That is why you are met with what you perceive as rudeness, it's not, we've just dealt with this type of know- -it -all attitude over and over again through the years and it distracts from the actual learning and sharing.
Where are you getting 40 years as a longevity record for exanthematicus?
25 years is beyond the life expectancy in the wild of many of these species. Did you read Mendyk's work on longevity in captive varanids?
Some species are much longer lived than others, I have heard of reliable reports of 30 year old V.varius, do you think V.primordius lives as long?

Personally I've had animals set longevity records for the species I keep. Have you?
I've bred varanids to generations, right now I'm watching a F4 pair of dumerilii (that I produced from F1 on) copulating, swing my head and I'm looking at an incubator full of varanid eggs. You?
Once again, I don't care for your approach because you are jumping to conclusions and you have not done the work.
Do the work, then share the results, then offer advice and opinions....do the fricken work.

[formica]

There do not seem to be any properly recorded ages, and no one seems prepared to state categorically how old their Savs where when they died, I've looked where I can for ages, even assuming 25 years being old, the average of 15, or 12, or 6, depending on your source, falls far short of that, surely if monitor care was as good as it can be, average age would be significantly higher than even 15?

and yes I am aware that most Savs will never reach the maximum age for their species, just as most other animals die far younger than the oldest of their species.

how old is/was your oldest exanthematicus?

do you know of any capitive Savs which have reached 25? 15? 12?

apart from humidity and egg laying, what other health reasons are there for V. exanthematicus requiring 2 feet soil?

What evidence can you present to show that UV is not necessary or at the very least beneficial? I have already stated my reasons for believing, as many other people do, that UV is vital.

I didnt say Savs seek out companionship, I said some enjoy interaction with humans, the two concepts are worlds apart.

You cannot expect me to wait until my Sav dies, before questioning the techniques I will employ to care for him, given the ambiguity surrounding the current practices. as I have stated time and time again, my care plan falls within ''the formula'', all changes are additional and optional, my Sav can choose how/where to nest and interact with the options provided.

[murrindindi]

I dont know, how long have they been keeping them, and what ages have their monitors achieved? I've asked the question time and time again, but never been given an answer, except that 15 is considered old, and in the wild they can live much longer - I'm not denying their expertise or experience - but if there is a diffrence of upto 25 years in captive and wild life spans, then I dont see how anyone can deny that something isnt quite right yet?


at least I am trying to learn, and improve on a formula which is known to halve the potential life expectancy of the animals it is designed to care for

Hi, the current (much improved) husbandry methods have been in place a relatively short length of time, that undoubtably is the main reason we don`t see too many 20+year old Varanids in captivity at this moment in time.
Where are you getting their "average" wild lifespans from (cite the sources), and which particular species are you discussing?

[Mikoh4792]

I didnt say Savs seek out companionship, I said some enjoy interaction with humans, the two concepts are worlds apart.

How ironic you called me out for hiding behind semantics.

Could you explain what repeated behaviors your sav has shown that would indicate it enjoying human interaction?

[murrindindi]

Apart from humidity and egg laying, what other health reasons are there for V. exanthematicus requiring 2 feet soil?

What evidence can you present to show that UV is not necessary or at the very least beneficial? I have already stated my reasons for believing, as many other people do, that UV is vital.




There you go again; you`ve decided UVB is VITAL to captive Varanids (I`ll take that to mean their health will suffer greatly without it).
Your assertion is based on which EVIDENCE?

[B_Aller]

you just want to argue, I see, do tell? How does that help longevity?

There aren't properly recorded ages! nonsense I have thousands of reports right here stating ages for captive exanthematicus, thousands. as well as photo album after photo album of pics of enclosures and set ups.
This exemplifies what I'm talking about, you have no knowledge of the history, and don't even seem to know where to look.
I have worked with exanthematicus but my work is focused on S.E Asian species.
Modern husbandry approach has not been used by 99.99% of keepers and most of those here have only been exposed to a small portion of what is considered modern husbandry technique so longevity in most species is something that is being set as we speak. In the past 1-5 years was the max lifespan in captivity for exanthematicus, now we are seeing specimens pass the 10 year mark, going strong.
I can offer scores of successful keeper results without the use of UV, and my own results that I have seen with my own two eyes. UV has not been necessary for me to breed dumerilii to F5.
Apart from egg laying and the health of the animal!!! apart from that???? what is beneficial about deep substrate? security, enrichment,plasticity, decomposition of feces, foraging areas,spraint stations, etc.....besides those? what the hell are you on?
Who said anything about waiting for your sav to die? You have one animal and you are jumping to conclusions, or delusions! Get a group going, actually learn something before muddying the waters with your baseless conclusions. How much more clear can I be?

[KORBIN5895]

Watch out guys.... he'll put you on his ignore list if you keep telling him the truth.

[murrindindi]

Watch out guys.... he'll put you on his ignore list if you keep telling him the truth.


No chance, he wouldn`t have anyone to disagree with....... :D

[infernalis]

Seems I am late to this party.

I will NOT repeat the whole thing as it was a personal correspondence, however, I will share the relevant part.

While I was "publicly" maudlin over the loss of Chomper at the tender young age of five, Daniel Bennett wrote to me and stated that he felt my lizard out lived MOST specimens inside or outside the box (His term for captivity) as the majority of exanthematicus in captivity are so poorly kept that many never live past 2 or 3, and that wild specimens do not fare much better, (Tropical ticks, baboons, eagles, big cats, man, etc...)

I remember the last person who laid claim to inflated longevity numbers..

Sorry but that is absolute nonsense. Do the math(s). Even if they didn't reach sexual maturity until they were ten and they only bred twice in their lives, I think you will find that after 50 generations the weight of monitor lizards would exceed the weight of the planet they live on, or something like that.

I think you have some rosy view of wild monitor lizards living in some Arcadian paradise, dining on the finest foods and living to a ripe old age. In fact they are scabby, they have ticks, the ones that live on snails and frogs are riddled with parasites, very few survive a year and, assuming a stable population, only two of a female's offspring from her entire reproductive life will survive to reproduce themselves.



Where do you get this stuff from? Disney?

[formica]

Hi, the current (much improved) husbandry methods have been in place a relatively short length of time, that undoubtably is the main reason we don`t see too many 20+year old Varanids in captivity at this moment in time.
Where are you getting their "average" wild lifespans from (cite the sources), and which particular species are you discussing?

so current husbundary, putting aside breeding successes, has not yet been around long enough for anyone to say categorically that it is ''optimal''? considering that they can apperntly live to at least 20+?

I didnt say ''average'' lifespans, i said maximum, average lifespans for Savs would be less than 1 year even in the wild, at a guess, based on the fact that they are prolific breeders and lay vast numbers of eggs, this is always a good indicator that a species has a tough time reaching adulthood.

How ironic you called me out for hiding behind semantics.

Could you explain what repeated behaviors your sav has shown that would indicate it enjoying human interaction?

nonsense, companionship and interaction are not the same thing, a persons head can interact with a rock, that does not mean it is seeking companionship.

repeated behaviours - look it up for yourself, youtube would be a good start, regardless of the bad care issues

There you go again; you`ve decided UVB is VITAL to captive Varanids (I`ll take that to mean their health will suffer greatly without it).
Your assertion is based on which EVIDENCE?

I already stated my evidence, twice.

you just want to argue, I see, do tell? How does that help longevity?

There aren't properly recorded ages! nonsense I have thousands of reports right here stating ages for captive exanthematicus, thousands. as well as photo album after photo album of pics of enclosures and set ups.
This exemplifies what I'm talking about, you have no knowledge of the history, and don't even seem to know where to look.
I have worked with exanthematicus but my work is focused on S.E Asian species.
Modern husbandry approach has not been used by 99.99% of keepers and most of those here have only been exposed to a small portion of what is considered modern husbandry technique so longevity in most species is something that is being set as we speak. In the past 1-5 years was the max lifespan in captivity for exanthematicus, now we are seeing specimens pass the 10 year mark, going strong.
I can offer scores of successful keeper results without the use of UV, and my own results that I have seen with my own two eyes. UV has not been necessary for me to breed dumerilii to F5.
Apart from egg laying and the health of the animal!!! apart from that???? what is beneficial about deep substrate? security, enrichment,plasticity, decomposition of feces, foraging areas,spraint stations, etc.....besides those? what the hell are you on?
Who said anything about waiting for your sav to die? You have one animal and you are jumping to conclusions, or delusions! Get a group going, actually learn something before muddying the waters with your baseless conclusions. How much more clear can I be?

I said, there do not SEEM, to be properly recorded ages, because yes I have not found them, which is why I am asking the question.

You seem to be under the impression that my questions where, as yours where, facetious, they are not, they are genuine questions, and dispite your attitude, I appreciate the answers.

Did you supplement your animals with D3? otherwise how did they get Vitamin D without UV light?

Would also appriciate answers regarding the longest lived Savs you know of, dont keep the data to yourself - share...my questions are not intended as the attack you are taking them as, that is simply a reflection of your own attitude towards me, they are genuine questions.

Do you consider breeding, to be the pinnacle of successful husbandry? This is a reasonable assumption I suppose, although most animals reach sexual maturity long before the maximum potential age of their species, I'm not convinced that breeding reflects optimal conditions or health, it certainly is an indicator that they are not in bad health - I would appreciate numbers relating to Savs

Seems I am late to this party.

I will NOT repeat the whole thing as it was a personal correspondence, however, I will share the relevant part.

While I was "publicly" maudlin over the loss of Chomper at the tender young age of five, Daniel Bennett wrote to me and stated that he felt my lizard out lived MOST specimens inside or outside the box (His term for captivity) as the majority of exanthematicus in captivity are so poorly kept that many never live past 2 or 3, and that wild specimens do not fare much better, (Tropical ticks, baboons, eagles, big cats, man, etc...)

I remember the last person who laid claim to inflated longevity numbers..

there is no doubt that most monitors in the wild die young, this is standard for most species infact, and any species which lays vast numbers of eggs, is generally one where most of the young will be dead long before sexual maturity, let alone old age - thats not what my questions are about, its about the potential life span, given the right conditions and a fair amount of luck, both in the wild and in captivity

[B_Aller]

You really don't get the bigger picture that I'm trying to get across to you Formica.
None of my responses or questions were facetious or rhetorical, they were meant to be thought about and answered.
You have gotten some great advice from Stefan and Wayne but chose to fight and ignore rather than think, pity as you have been exposed to some progressive ideas and methodologies.
I've been keeping monitors for 20 years and have seen your exact attitude and confrontational pretentiousness over and over again and I know how the story ends.
You are part of the problem because you want to know and don't want to learn. Learning takes time and effort.
We've been fighting an uphill battle in this hobby for years trying to get people to adopt modern husbandry technique because those of us in the trenches have seen the outcomes of modern husbandry VS. the type of over worrying/under thinking style of husbandry you promote. You are focusing on the wrong things as many, many before you have and we've seen what happens. believe it or not we are actually trying to help you, not because we like you (I don't) but because we care about these animals and the future of this hobby.
No I don't supplement my animals in any way, once I learned modern husbandry technique I stopped supplementing and never looked back. I tried every supplement on the market in the early '90's but never saw any benefits compared to a natural diet and proper support. Again, I hatched out hundreds of babies without supplementation and my animals set longevity records for their species (16+ years for female dumerilii)
I've personally seen the difference in lifespan when animals are subjected to proper vs. improper support.
Why should I bend over backwards to share my info with you? You don't want to employ critical thought, just knee jerk reactions, you have not proven yourself to be a player in this game, one animal, no success, argumentative...yeah I really want to share with you...sounds fun and productive (now THAT was facetious)
Breeding is not the pinnical of success, it's the bottom rung of the success ladder, it's what these animals are designed to do. Breeding to generations with 100% (or close) hatch rates, long term support and care of all life stages, that is the pinnical of success.
I'd appreciate you answering my direct questions before you demand information from me.

[Mikoh4792]

nonsense, companionship and interaction are not the same thing, a persons head can interact with a rock, that does not mean it is seeking companionship.

No I understand what you are getting at. Those are two different things. However when I was also trying to get at two different things, you accused me of hiding behind semantics. To be specific, when I told you I never said monitors could not enjoy human interaction, rather I was not convinced of your assertion that they can. Those are two different things as well, and I did not expect you to be hypocritical in that sense.

[formica]

You really don't get the bigger picture that I'm trying to get across to you Formica.
None of my responses or questions were facetious or rhetorical, they were meant to be thought about and answered.
You have gotten some great advice from Stefan and Wayne but chose to fight and ignore rather than think, pity as you have been exposed to some progressive ideas and methodologies.
I've been keeping monitors for 20 years and have seen your exact attitude and confrontational pretentiousness over and over again and I know how the story ends.
You are part of the problem because you want to know and don't want to learn. Learning takes time and effort.
We've been fighting an uphill battle in this hobby for years trying to get people to adopt modern husbandry technique because those of us in the trenches have seen the outcomes of modern husbandry VS. the type of over worrying/under thinking style of husbandry you promote. You are focusing on the wrong things as many, many before you have and we've seen what happens. believe it or not we are actually trying to help you, not because we like you (I don't) but because we care about these animals and the future of this hobby.
No I don't supplement my animals in any way, once I learned modern husbandry technique I stopped supplementing and never looked back. I tried every supplement on the market in the early '90's but never saw any benefits compared to a natural diet and proper support. Again, I hatched out hundreds of babies without supplementation and my animals set longevity records for their species (16+ years for female dumerilii)
I've personally seen the difference in lifespan when animals are subjected to proper vs. improper support.
Why should I bend over backwards to share my info with you? You don't want to employ critical thought, just knee jerk reactions, you have not proven yourself to be a player in this game, one animal, no success, argumentative...yeah I really want to share with you...sounds fun and productive (now THAT was facetious)
Breeding is not the pinnical of success, it's the bottom rung of the success ladder, it's what these animals are designed to do. Breeding to generations with 100% (or close) hatch rates, long term support and care of all life stages, that is the pinnical of success.
I'd appreciate you answering my direct questions before you demand information from me.

the only questions you asked me, you already knew the answers to, they where not questions seeking answers, but simply an attempt to discredit what I was saying, and make yourself look good.

If you dont want to share your data, then why the hell are you on this forum at all? just to make yourself look good? to get everyone to stroke your ego while you argue about how stupid everyone else is because they dare to ask questions?

I have not ignored anyones advice, despite the fact that only a few people on this forum seem capable of dealing with questions about how, and why, certain parameters and techniques are important.

You may be willing to accept blindly what you are told, I am not, if someone tells me ''this is how it needs to be'', I will always ask why, and if you cant handle that, then frankly you have no business quoting scientific research papers at me, because when people stop asking WHY, and what about this, and that - science dies, and turns into a religous plague which doesnt do anyone any good at all - science isnt about dogmatically following a particular process because other people says thats how it should be, its about asking questions, regardless of wether or not those questions bring up answers which conflict with your opinions or the status quo. If people had not asked questions, as already said, monitors would still be dying in small glass tanks.

also perhaps you need to consider, that if you are coming up against confrontational people time and time again, perhaps the problem is not actually, with the other people.

[formica]

No I understand what you are getting at. Those are two different things. However when I was also trying to get at two different things, you accused me of hiding behind semantics. To be specific, when I told you I never said monitors could not enjoy human interaction, rather I was not convinced of your assertion that they can. Those are two different things as well, and I did not expect you to be hypocritical in that sense.

if you dont have any opinion on it in either direction, then what exaclty are you trying to contribute to the point?

[Mikoh4792]

if you dont have any opinion on it in either direction, then what exaclty are you trying to contribute to the point?

I was calling you out on making an assertion that had no real merit to it. You can not pass it off as fact, which you tried to do. If you are posting questionable statements in a thread, anyone has the right to question you, which is exactly what I along with others have done. Not every poster has to "contribute".

edit: Also, you did not tell me what repeated behaviors your sav has shown to indicate that it enjoys human interaction. You avoided the question by telling me to look up the phrase " repeated behaviors". That does not answer my question, which I have asked more than once.

[formica]

I was calling you out on making an assertion that had no real merit to it. You can not pass it off as fact, which you tried to do. If you are posting questionable statements in a thread, anyone has the right to question you, which is exactly what I along with others have done. Not every poster has to "contribute".

edit: Also, you did not tell me what repeated behaviors your sav has shown to indicate that it enjoys human interaction. You avoided the question by telling me to look up the phrase " repeated behaviors". That does not answer my question, which I have asked more than once.

my Sav does not currently enjoy interaction with me at all, for the first time since I got him, he allowed me to scratch his head today - I was pretty clear that only some Savs appeared to enjoy interacting with humans.

I didnt tell you to look up repeated behaviours, I dont think you are actually reading what I am saying, you are just writing whatever comes into your head which contradicts what you think I am saying. I said goto youtube and watch people interacting with their savs, if you cant be bothered to do that, and you dont have any further opinion either way, other than that you disagree with whatever I say, then theres no point left to this line of discussion.

[B_Aller]

You don't get it and just want to argue. I asked you several serious questions about your methodologies and experience, you refuse to answer. I have been happily sharing my info to interested, engaging parties for years, why should I waste my time sharing info with someone who does not have the patience or wherewithall to THINK and test as well as question.
Waste of my time.

[Mikoh4792]

I didnt tell you to look up repeated behaviours, I dont think you are actually reading what I am saying

repeated behaviours - look it up for yourself, youtube would be a good start, regardless of the bad care issues

Right..

you are just writing whatever comes into your head which contradicts what you think I am saying. I said goto youtube and watch people interacting with their savs, if you cant be bothered to do that, and you dont have any further opinion either way, other than that you disagree with whatever I say, then theres no point left to this line of discussion.

You did not say that. You argue dishonestly. There is no point in arguing with someone who will bring forth an argument and not elaborate. If it is not your sav that does not enjoy interactions, bring examples of other peoples' savs that do. To tell people to do their own research in this case is counter intuitive. You brought the argument, you explain it.

[formica]

You don't get it and just want to argue. I asked you several serious questions about your methodologies and experience, you refuse to answer. I have been happily sharing my info to interested, engaging parties for years, why should I waste my time sharing info with someone who does not have the patience or wherewithall to THINK and test as well as question.
Waste of my time.

whatever, your motives are clear, so please do stop wasting your time.

Right..



You did not say that. You argue dishonestly. There is no point in arguing with someone who will bring forth an argument and not elaborate. If it is not your sav that does not enjoy interactions, bring examples of other people's sav's that do. To tell people to do their own research in this case is counter intuitive. You brought the argument, you explain it.

I have watched numerous videos of people interacting with their Savs, and no I cannot be bothered to go and find the links for you, if you were genuinly interested, you would have already gone and looked for yourself.

I was not telling you to look up 'repeated interactions', I see how you got that impression, because my grammar is not good sometimes, however I would have thought that anyone using the internet would know how to define their own search terms to find the information they are looking for.

[Mikoh4792]

I have watched numerous videos of people interacting with their Savs, and no I cannot be bothered to go and find the links for you, if you were genuinly interested, you would have already gone and looked for yourself.

I am not genuinely interested, I am only calling you out for making such claims. As I said before, If you are going to pass it off as fact, you will need to prove it yourself. I will not be the one to prove it for you, as it is not my assertion.

By the way, you wouldn't be looking for the links for me, it would be for everyone to see on this thread that you are right. Thus far you have not done so.

Anyways, it's clear you will not argue the point. I will stop addressing this issue.

[formica]

I am not genuinely interested, I am only calling you out for making such claims. As I said before, If you are going to pass it off as fact, you will need to prove it yourself. I will not be the one to prove it for you, as it is not my assertion.

By the way, you wouldn't be looking for the links for me, it would be for everyone to see on this thread that you are right. Thus far you have not done so.

Anyways, it's clear you will not argue the point. I will stop addressing this issue.

on this very thread, if you had bothered to read it:

Thanks so much for the input
I actually designed the new enclosure based on his personality and behavior,
while I do understand it is not typical...Eco is a climber
He climbs EVERYTHING. LOL
And as far as room to run around? Generally he has free reign of the shop.
We did limit him to the showroom area to keep him out of harms way in the factory...
but he absolutely LOVES being with us...and will often get upset if we are in a different room.
Honestly he is more like a dog than any monitor I have ever seen
He quite literally DEMANDS attention and will oftem climb up into my lap to be pet
he has even gone so far as to climb up on the couch and plop down next to me "snuggling" as I napped

He is quite the character

why you would argue the toss about something you are not interested in, is strange to say the least.

[Mikoh4792]

on this very thread, if you had bothered to read it:



why you would argue the toss about something you are not interested in, is strange to say the least.

That is not proof of monitors enjoying human interaction. One can only speculate from those given details. As another poster has said, as far as we know it could just be that the monitor is seeking warmth, again another speculation, or that it has gained trust of it's owner that he is not a threat.

I wouldn't exactly say I am arguing about something I am not interested in. As said before, I was only calling you out for making assertions and passing them off as fact without any real evidence. The only thing I am interested in at this point, is sound arguments.

[formica]

That is not proof of monitors enjoying human interaction. One can only speculate from those given details. As another poster has said, as far as we know it could just be that the monitor is seeking warmth, again another speculation, or that it has gained trust of it's owner that he is not a threat.

I wouldn't exactly say I am arguing about something I am not interested in. As said before, I was only calling you out for making assertions and passing them off as fact without any real evidence. The only thing I am interested in at this point, is sound arguments.

the owner is pretty clear about the interactions, whether you accept them or not is irrelevant. seems to me, that the only thing you are interested in, is a written confession by a monitor of its undying love for a human. you will of course be waiting a long time for that.

[Mikoh4792]

the owner is pretty clear about the interactions, whether you accept them or not is irrelevant. seems to me, that the only thing you are interested in, is a written confession by a monitor of its undying love for a human. you will of course be waiting a long time for that.

If you think the OP's descriptions are enough to validate your assertion, there was no point in calling you out afterall. That is no where near proof or evidence. You get no where by making facetious statements. You can not seriously think that is what I am interested in. Everyone knows monitors can not write nor confess their undying loves for humans, if they even have any.

[formica]

If you think the OP's descriptions are enough to validate your assertion, there was no point in calling you out afterall. That is no where near proof or evidence. You get no where by making facetious statements. You can not seriously think that is what I am interested in. Everyone knows monitors can not write nor confess their undying loves for humans, if they even have any.

I dont need to validate it, you disagree, it is your burden to prove your disagreement, and it is your burden to prove that the OP is wrong in his interpretation of his interactions with his Sav.

[E-Tech Todd]

Well alright
Finally some reasonable and informative posts
Thank you all for your input
since my last post I have done some more "digging" so to speak

So I called my DFW buddy to ask him for some input since I felt I was being put down and insulted here
As previously stated, he has an exotic animal rescue center which houses a wide variety of animals. Many of them are large and/or poisonous lizards. Everything from these tiny little poisonous tree lizards(dont know the name), Gillas, many different species of monitors, all the way up to the grand daddy of them all, Komodos.
According to him...with over 30yrs experience in rescuing and housing these amazing creatures, temp and humidty are the key.
his center houses over a dozen Savs. Some rescued from black market sellers as babies...others rescued as large adults.
The largest of which is a 16 yr old, 6.5ft sav that they rescued over 10yrs ago and has become a permanent fixture at the center.
NONE of which have 18"-24" of soil to dig in.
According to him, as long as the substrate is kept clean and free of Bacteria, mold and fungi...a few inches is fine
Exercise is also extremely important as savs can tend to get lazy and become overweight
According to him, many of the health problems associated with these types of lizards have more to do the stresses of being overweight and under stimulated(as in exercise)
If an enclosure large enough for them to run around can't be provided, which would be most all indoor enclosures, then letting the animal out to run around for short periods to run around would be a good practice.
Having things inside his enclosure to climb on would also be beneficial

My mistake that led to the dehydration and consequently the loss of the end of his tail, was failing to keep the proper humidity levels in his cage. Again...that was my failing. I knew this, but "got busy" and failed to maintain things in their proper state.

The new enclosure should handle many of those things.
Though "not necessary" the circulated pool area will increase the humudity inside the enclosure, give him consistently fresh drinking water, as well as a place to at least partially submerge himself

You know...being helpful and making suggestions goes a hell of a lot farther than being critical and insulting
Just sayin

Big thanks to formica. Who, although he has not been caring for a sav very long, posted the most useful and inclusive info to make anperson feel welcome.
I guess sometimes it takes a newcomer to remind us how we should behave.

I hope the info I posted from someone with long term, real world experience with caring for numerous reptiles, is helpful to others who may be struggling with not having the "optimum" set up

I hope I will be able to contribute to this forum in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner.

as always
with much respect

Todd

[Mikoh4792]

I dont need to validate it, you disagree, it is your burden to prove your disagreement, and it is your burden to prove that the OP is wrong in his interpretation of his interactions with his Sav.

It is evident you ignore everyones side of the story but yours. I have told you numerous times, including now that I am not "disagreeing". I am not saying monitors can not feel enjoyment from human interaction. Where is your head?

I have not called you out until these statements

I couldnt imagine a wolf snuggling with a human, and yet, there are millions of dogs around the world, many of which at this very moment are snuggled up to their owners waiting to be scratched, chased, fed and loved


I'm not disputing the requirement for at least 130F basking tempretures, but to dismiss the trait of interaction with humans, as bad care, is a closed minded approach

I ask you to explain your argument and your best reply is to tell me to look for the proof myself, and that you don't have to explain yourself. Yes you do. It is your assertion, you explain it. Your style of arguing is childish at best.



A: " Unicorns are real "

B: "How do you know?"

A: " I don't have to explain, look for the proof yourself, i can't be bothered right now, all i am saying is that unicorns are real, if you disagree, too bad for you."

^ Do you see what is wrong with that picture? Person A never said he/she disagreed.

[E-Tech Todd]

Oh...and I dont know about monitors as a species...
but Eco clearly enjoys human contact.
Well...OK...I guess technically we dont know if "enjoys" is an accurate description.
But he does seek out interaction with us.
From climbing up in our laps to lounge and be pet while we work at the desk, to laying next to me on the couch while I napped, to OPENING THE WINDOW(totally blew our minds lol) for no apparent reason other than to hang out as we worked.
One day he even found a way out of the showroom, went into my biz partners shaping bay, and just hung out with him as he worked.
There was no other "typical" reason for him to go in there.
Its not warm and there is no basking spot. He wasnt hiding or there to keep cool. He simply plopped down on the floor and layed there...out in the open...for more than and hour just hanging out.
Eco is definitely an atypical Sav.
LOL

[marvelfreak]

Big thanks to formica. Who, although he has not been caring for a sav very long, posted the most useful and inclusive info to make anperson feel welcome.
I guess sometimes it takes a newcomer to remind us how we should behave.
Todd
So just because he told you what you wanted to hear that makes him right and everyone else wrong.

So you have a friend with 30 years experience but you came here and asked for help. Then when you were given sound advice you chose to ignore it. Just because something works for someone doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. But hey it's your monitor if you want to give it a mediocre life instead of a quality life so be it. The only one that's going to suffer is your poor monitor.:no::no::no:

[MDT]

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/5f7_zpsf4e413cb.jpeg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/5f7_zpsf4e413cb.jpeg.html)


Just. No. Words....

[formica]

Just because something works for someone doesn't mean it's the best way to do it.

lol

indeed.

[smy_749]

I always know whats coming next when you start listing someones reptile keeping resume, and the xx years of experience line is my favorite. Coming in a close second is 'I have a friend who is a reptile expert'.

I need to go to the gym and sweat it out. I think I just became mor stooped bye reedeng des las pa ege gsd gppsg .......

[KORBIN5895]

Well alright
Finally some reasonable and informative posts
Thank you all for your input
since my last post I have done some more "digging" so to speak

So I called my DFW buddy to ask him for some input since I felt I was being put down and insulted here
As previously stated, he has an exotic animal rescue center which houses a wide variety of animals. Many of them are large and/or poisonous lizards. Everything from these tiny little poisonous tree lizards(dont know the name), Gillas, many different species of monitors, all the way up to the grand daddy of them all, Komodos.
According to him...with over 30yrs experience in rescuing and housing these amazing creatures, temp and humidty are the key.
his center houses over a dozen Savs. Some rescued from black market sellers as babies...others rescued as large adults.
The largest of which is a 16 yr old, 6.5ft sav that they rescued over 10yrs ago and has become a permanent fixture at the center.
NONE of which have 18"-24" of soil to dig in.
According to him, as long as the substrate is kept clean and free of Bacteria, mold and fungi...a few inches is fine
Exercise is also extremely important as savs can tend to get lazy and become overweight
According to him, many of the health problems associated with these types of lizards have more to do the stresses of being overweight and under stimulated(as in exercise)
If an enclosure large enough for them to run around can't be provided, which would be most all indoor enclosures, then letting the animal out to run around for short periods to run around would be a good practice.
Having things inside his enclosure to climb on would also be beneficial

My mistake that led to the dehydration and consequently the loss of the end of his tail, was failing to keep the proper humidity levels in his cage. Again...that was my failing. I knew this, but "got busy" and failed to maintain things in their proper state.

The new enclosure should handle many of those things.
Though "not necessary" the circulated pool area will increase the humudity inside the enclosure, give him consistently fresh drinking water, as well as a place to at least partially submerge himself

You know...being helpful and making suggestions goes a hell of a lot farther than being critical and insulting
Just sayin

Big thanks to formica. Who, although he has not been caring for a sav very long, posted the most useful and inclusive info to make anperson feel welcome.
I guess sometimes it takes a newcomer to remind us how we should behave.

I hope the info I posted from someone with long term, real world experience with caring for numerous reptiles, is helpful to others who may be struggling with not having the "optimum" set up

I hope I will be able to contribute to this forum in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner.

as always
with much respect

Todd

BS. Pure and simple.

[marvelfreak]

BS. Pure and simple.
Don't you mean
25172

[smy_749]

BS. Pure and simple.

Your not convinced that he has a 16 year old 6.5 foot savannah monitor? C'mon Korbin, have a little imagination...

[poison123]

I wanna hear more about this "poisonous tree lizards".

[E-Tech Todd]

Man...you guys REALLY dont READ
An 8' x 4' x 4' enclosure with 2' of substrate
IS NOT POSSIBLE in the current environment

I came here to get advice on HOW TO MAXIMIZE the environment currently available, and to have a place to talk and ask any questions I may have so that I dont keep bothering my friend about it
Formica did not tell me what I wanted to hear...as a matter of fact his post did not actually help me with my inquiry at all.
But he disseminated any CONSTRUCTIVE input he had to offer
unlike some lizard snobs that can only wave their finger and tell you everything you're doing wrong like some abusive alcoholic parent.

Nothing GOOD ever comes from putting someone else down.
Being HELPFUL is to look at a situation for what it is and then try to assist in formulating ways to make it better.
Doing nothing but pointing out what is wrong IS NOT HELPFUL
It does nothing but put one in a position of superiority so they can feel important looking down on others.
There is always a way to be constructive without having to feed your ego.
But it appears I may be in the wrong place for that

Looks like theres too many snobs needing to feed their egos

So I will leave you all now to stroke each other

I would rather spend my time looking for solutions
rather than just pointing out the problems

use to have
much respect

[murrindindi]

Well alright

The largest of which is a 16 yr old, 6.5ft sav that they rescued over 10yrs ago and has become a permanent fixture at the center.
NONE of which have 18"-24" of soil to dig in.
According to him, as long as the substrate is kept clean and free of Bacteria, mold and fungi...a few inches is fine
You know...being helpful and making suggestions goes a hell of a lot farther than being critical and insulting


Hi again, can you get a few photos of the 6.5 feet long Savannah monitor, I believe that would be the largest specimen ever recorded?
When your very experienced friend told you a few inches of clean, bacteria free substrate is all that's` needed, does that apply to both sexes, even when mature?
I tried to offer you some very reliable advise, I asked for some details of how the monitor is being kept in regards to the temps and humidity, you made no further comment, is there a reason for that?
I`d also be interested in the animal`s diet since it`s been under your care.
A few photos of the "rescued" V. komodoensis would be great, too.
Thanks!

[KORBIN5895]

So just because he told you what you wanted to hear that makes him right and everyone else wrong.

So you have a friend with 30 years experience but you came here and asked for help. Then when you were given sound advice you chose to ignore it. Just because something works for someone doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. But hey it's your monitor if you want to give it a mediocre life instead of a quality life so be it. The only one that's going to suffer is your poor monitor.:no::no::no:

Honestly the whole story is a lie Chuck. Remember I'm Batman!! I know these things.

[formica]

Your not convinced that he has a 16 year old 6.5 foot savannah monitor? C'mon Korbin, have a little imagination...

possibly an albigularis? which by some is still called a Savannah monitor, and was officially considered a subspecies until recently from what I have read - taxonomy based on common names is frequently a confused situation.

[KORBIN5895]

Man...you guys REALLY dont READ
An 8' x 4' x 4' enclosure with 2' of substrate
IS NOT POSSIBLE in the current environment

I came here to get advice on HOW TO MAXIMIZE the environment currently available, and to have a place to talk and ask any questions I may have so that I dont keep bothering my friend about it
Formica did not tell me what I wanted to hear...as a matter of fact his post did not actually help me with my inquiry at all.
But he disseminated any CONSTRUCTIVE input he had to offer
unlike some lizard snobs that can only wave their finger and tell you everything you're doing wrong like some abusive alcoholic parent.

Nothing GOOD ever comes from putting someone else down.
Being HELPFUL is to look at a situation for what it is and then try to assist in formulating ways to make it better.
Doing nothing but pointing out what is wrong IS NOT HELPFUL
It does nothing but put one in a position of superiority so they can feel important looking down on others.
There is always a way to be constructive without having to feed your ego.
But it appears I may be in the wrong place for that

Looks like theres too many snobs needing to feed their egos

So I will leave you all now to stroke each other

I would rather spend my time looking for solutions
rather than just pointing out the problems

use to have
much respect

Actually you joined here to lie. You are a liar and your own ignorance gave you away.

People told you what was wrong AND how to fix it. You are unwilling to fix the problem and that isn't our fault. Why don't you go play with your friend's komodo? Maybe when it bites you your other friend that is a emt and cured aids will be able to stitch you up.

[murrindindi]

possibly an albigularis? which by some is still called a Savannah monitor, and was officially considered a subspecies until recently from what I have read - taxonomy based on common names is frequently a confused situation.

That`s quite possible, however an "expert" would surely have up to date info on currently recognised species?

[nepoez]

You guys are all silly gooses!

[nepoez]

Let Formica experiment with his own ways,

A.) if he succeeds he'll share it.
B.) If not, then he'll learn from it and either come back and try out your advices,
C.) or start a new experiment with the next sav. then Go back to point "A" or "B" or "C"

For me, I've already been though "B" and it sucked, so I'm going with the advices here. It makes the most sense for me because the advises here are basically giving the sav all the options it has, and letting it choose.

[nepoez]

Let Formica experiment with his own ways,

A.) if he succeeds he'll share it.
B.) If not, then he'll learn from it and either come back and try out your advices,
C.) or start a new experiment with the next sav. then Go back to point "A" or "B" or "C"

For me, I've already been though "B" and it sucked, so I'm going with the advices here. It makes the most sense for me because the advises here are basically giving the sav all the options it has, and letting it choose.

P.S. I just don't see any reason to argue with substrate. We all know in the wild there are tonnes of dirt to dig. Give it to them the worst thing that can happen is they don't need it and don't use it. No harm is done. 1,2 feet of dirt in a pet shop has to be achievable cuzz I achieved it in my small basement. I didn't know that these people are right about savs needing dirt. I don't know for sure still, but I also don't see the harm. So far only good has come from it.

Benefits of soil substrate I see so far:

1.) Keeps moisture
2.) Gives moisture choices
3.) Gives Temp choices
4.) No cleaning required(I got beetles break down everything into the soil) no small
5.) Gives sav privacy where and when he wants, cuzz he can dig a hole whereever he sees fit, less work for me!
6.) Good exercise from digging
7.) good way to keep other creatures for food source right in the tank

Disadvantages:

1.) I have more dirt to move when I need to move(which I will be in a couple weeks!)

So that's kind of the pros and cons from my observation. Hopefully this helps some people?

[infernalis]

One of the biggest advantages of a large soil mass (big dirt pile) is that it acts as a temperature and humidity "ballast"

In simple terms, The big dirt pile acts like a battery, the lamps charge it up with heat and it releases it slowly into the cage, We water it (simulate rain) and it quickly absorbs the water, and evaporates it back into the cage slowly.

Every other benefit aside, having this giant environmental buffer to absorb and offer protection has got to be the most beneficial husbandry decision we make.

[infernalis]

Ok folks, this one is over with.

From the sounds of things Todd was unwilling to hear that his current standards of keeping are slowly killing Eco and is unwilling to make any changes.

[Donnie]

I don't understand how some people are just not willing to listen to the advice they are given after asking for it :sad: especially when it comes from so many highly experienced individuals

[KORBIN5895]

But what about the fact that he was completely lying to us about everything?

[formica]

Let Formica experiment with his own ways,

A.) if he succeeds he'll share it.
B.) If not, then he'll learn from it and either come back and try out your advices,
C.) or start a new experiment with the next sav. then Go back to point "A" or "B" or "C"

For me, I've already been though "B" and it sucked, so I'm going with the advices here. It makes the most sense for me because the advises here are basically giving the sav all the options it has, and letting it choose.

I'm not really sure why no one bothers to actually read what I write, but I'll say it again, my setup, apart from the size of the enclosure which is tempory until I move house, is exactly the same, as for eg Infernalis's setup, with the ADDITION of a climate controlled nesting box, the nesting box is not in place of burrowing substrate.

I'm getting really bored of repeating this just because people cant be bothered to read what I write.

[Mikoh4792]

I'm not really sure why no one bothers to actually read what I write, but I'll say it again, my setup, apart from the size of the enclosure which is tempory until I move house, is exactly the same, as for eg Infernalis's setup, with the ADDITION of a climate controlled nesting box, the nesting box is not in place of burrowing substrate.

I'm getting really bored of repeating this just because people cant be bothered to read what I write.

Don't be a hypocrite, I've had to repeat myself to you numerous times as well.

[murrindindi]

I'm not really sure why no one bothers to actually read what I write, but I'll say it again, my setup, apart from the size of the enclosure which is tempory until I move house, is exactly the same, as for eg Infernalis's setup, with the ADDITION of a climate controlled nesting box, the nesting box is not in place of burrowing substrate.

I'm getting really bored of repeating this just because people cant be bothered to read what I write.


I`d like to ask what the temp and humidity range is inside the "nest" box, the size, and how the inside is arranged, and can you put a photo up of it in situ?
Obviously we know your animal is still a juvenile and the sex is unknown, but using extra options like that is always a good idea, so the question isn`t just for you, it`s for other keepers too, who may well have known females but aren`t sure whether to add one.

[formica]

Don't be a hypocrite, I've had to repeat myself to you numerous times as well.

you are so tedious. going on my ignore list, bye bye

[KORBIN5895]

Hi five Mikoh! We can now make fun of him together and he'll never know!

[Mikoh4792]

you are so tedious. going on my ignore list, bye bye

Don't act like you're not. Not to be tedious, but you are being a hypocrite again. Jokes.

Hi five Mikoh! We can now make fun of him together and he'll never know!

Awesome, this should be fun.

[infernalis]

can we just talk about reptiles instead for a change?

[Pirarucu]

So I called my DFW buddy to ask him for some input since I felt I was being put down and insulted here
As previously stated, he has an exotic animal rescue center which houses a wide variety of animals. Many of them are large and/or poisonous lizards. Everything from these tiny little poisonous tree lizards(dont know the name), Gillas, many different species of monitors, all the way up to the grand daddy of them all, Komodos.
According to him...with over 30yrs experience in rescuing and housing these amazing creatures, temp and humidty are the key.
his center houses over a dozen Savs. Some rescued from black market sellers as babies...others rescued as large adults.
The largest of which is a 16 yr old, 6.5ft sav that they rescued over 10yrs ago and has become a permanent fixture at the center.
Bwahahahaha. Don't forget the fifty foot retic he has. And what about that fifteen foot, hundred year old Nile Monitor?
Don't tell, me, the camera is broken? Even the phone ones? Darn shame how everyone with huge collections happens to not have a working camera.:rolleyes:
If your friend has so much space and experience, it begs the question why you're here for help at all. Plus, if you don't have space for your sav, wouldn't this rescue be more than glad to take him?

Seriously though, what is up with this forum? I left for a few weeks and everything went sour. I liked it better when calm, reasonable discussions could be had. Now everyone (Well, not really everyone) seems to be arguing about something or other without reading opposing arguments or backing up their own.