UV question

[Toothless]

I am planning to add a UV tube light to my enclosure, and was wondering what the recommended distance is from the light to the basking surface? I know they have to be fairly close, but do not know what the actual distance is.
Also, is a certain type of UV bulb better than another? I have two four foot fluorescent tube lights in the enclosure at the moment, and am looking to change one out into a UV bulb. I'm curious to know if there will be a change in his behaviour once he has the option of UVB (and of course how much he will use it).

[infernalis]

I use it, can't really say it changes behaviour. I have my tube about 18 inches up off the dirt.

Use it? they don't really sit under it, and they did knock it down once.

[Toothless]

Thanks for the reply :).
Did you always have UVB available and if not when did you add it? Would it be better to place it in the same area as the second basking site, or in its own area?

[murrindindi]

Hi, if you`re using one of the cheaper brands of UVB fluorescent tubes such as a 5-0, they need to be within a maximum of 25cm (10 inches) of the surface of the animal to be of any use, closer is better. Further than 10inches they are all but worthless in regard to the UVB, though o.k for some supplementary light.
I`ve used a variety of UVB emitting bulbs over the years; Powersun, Megaray, Arcadia (which are MVB`s ), as far as I can tell there has been absolutely no difference in behaviour or health in my monitors since I stopped using them around 2 years ago.
By far the best type in terms of the UVB (the closest to natural unfiltered sunlight) are the metal halide bulbs, though they are quite expensive, and do require an external ballast.

[Toothless]

That is very helpful information- thanks :). I am planning to build a retes stack under the tube light, so can make sure he gets within the recommended distance. If I find he never uses it, then I can stick the fluorescent one back in when the UVB tube needs to be replaced.
I looked at the pet store today, and could only find 2 foot long UVB tube lights in the reptile section. Is there somewhere else I can find one 4 feet long, or will I most likely have to order one if the pet store doesn't have any that large in stock? Are there certain aquarium lights that emit UVB as I noticed them have a bunch of them that are long enough?

[murrindindi]

I`m living in the U.K at this time so cannot tell you where to buy the tubes, but I`m fairly sure they might sell them on Ebay (they do here in England), and probably much cheaper than the petshop, even if it`s exactly the same make.
You cannot use the aquarium tubes.

[Toothless]

Thanks again :).
I'll have a look at ebay and see what I can find.

[infernalis]

Clearance racks at big pet stores.

I got a stack of UVB (zoo med) tubes for a couple bucks each in a clearance bin.

[Toothless]

I managed to find a 4 footer that says 10.0 and another that says 5.0.
What's the difference between the two?

[infernalis]

5.0 is for jungle/rain forest animals, 10.0 is for desert dwelling animals.

[formica]

I use a 10% UV CFL alongside my basking lamps, both the basking lamps and the UV are E27 fitting so I have them all in one bank together, £20 from exo terra for the bulb on ebay, ment to be changed every 6 months

the exo terra CFL's are supposed to be effective within 60cm, although my bank is only about 10inches from the basking surface

my Savs colors seem to be far more vibrant (darker browns, brighter yellows) after a few minutes basking now that he has UV aswell, this is not a change I noticed with just the heat lights, cant say if it is the UV, but I believe its pretty essential for reptiles that bask in full sun in nature

[murrindindi]

my Savs colors seem to be far more vibrant (darker browns, brighter yellows) after a few minutes basking now that he has UV aswell, this is not a change I noticed with just the heat lights, cant say if it is the UV, but I believe its pretty essential for reptiles that bask in full sun in nature


Hi, I respectfully disagree that UVB/sunlight is "essential" for captive Varanids. It`s been demonstrated by many keepers across the world that when properly supported they live long, healthy and productive lives without exposure to either natural or artificial UVB.
I think the reason your monitor may appear to be more colourful is simply the amount of illumination (I think it IS important to provide good quality lighting).

[formica]

Hi, I respectfully disagree that UVB/sunlight is "essential" for captive Varanids. It`s been demonstrated by many keepers across the world that when properly supported they live long, healthy and productive lives without exposure to either natural or artificial UVB.
I think the reason your monitor may appear to be more colourful is simply the amount of illumination (I think it IS important to provide good quality lighting).

the color change takes a short while to happen, its not down to the illumination itself - it might be down to the heat, quite a few reptiles darken to absorb heat.


if a reptile is supplemented with D3, then UV is less important, however, synthetic vitamins have been shown to be less effective than natural vitamins, and they are not the same, structurally, as naturally occurring molecules, even if they are made up of the same atoms, even the slightest differences in the orientation of atoms within a molecule can have significant difference on the way it interacts with the body. there are also issues with dosage, when a reptile is provided with UV, its body will produce D3 as it needs, and in the form that it has evolved to utilize to stay healthy.

I should also point out, that as no one has kept monitors to the age that they reach in the wild, it cannot be said, that it has been proven that UV is not important, infact imo its fairly clear that current care techniques, as much as they may have advanced in recent years, are lacking in ways that have not yet been fully understood.

[murrindindi]

I should also point out, that as no one has kept monitors to the age that they reach in the wild, it cannot be said, that it has been proven that UV is not important, infact imo its fairly clear that current care techniques, as much as they may have advanced in recent years, are lacking in ways that have not yet been fully understood.


Hi again, can you please give details of the ages the different species reach in the wild so we can try and get a few comparisons?
In your experience, how old were "they" at death in captivity when fully supported (even without UVB, which you say is essential)?
I suspect that most monitors in the wild do NOT live to any great age (for a number of reasons).

[Toothless]

So should I get the 5.0 or the 10.0? I'm planning to get everything ready and have it in there sometime this week. The only thing left to do is build a retes stack for under the lights, but I need to know exactly how far I need the platform to go up. Would 14 inches from the lights be sufficient, or should I bring it closer?

[formica]

10.0 toothless

your basking area, or the lights, should be adjustable, so that you can maintain the correct tempreture on the surface - then use the recomended specs that come with the UV light to positition the UV light


Hi again, can you please give details of the ages the different species reach in the wild so we can try and get a few comparisons?
In your experience, how old were "they" at death in captivity when fully supported (even without UVB, which you say is essential)?
I suspect that most monitors in the wild do NOT live to any great age (for a number of reasons).

15 years in captivity is considered old, 40 year old specimens found in the wild. do your own research, its all there to be found.

Of course most monitors do not live to a great age, this is true for all animals, including humans, most die far younger than their potential, and why is that? ;) bad diet, lack of exercise, various cancer causing habits, changes in habitat and habits...etc

[Toothless]

Thanks a bunch!
The fluorescent lights are on a chain, and the basking bulbs are adjustable, but if I lower the tube light fixture any farther, it will be too close to the top shelf, hence why I want to build up the second shelf to get closer to the lights :).

[formica]

Thanks a bunch!
The fluorescent lights are on a chain, and the basking bulbs are adjustable, but if I lower the tube light fixture any farther, it will be too close to the top shelf, hence why I want to build up the second shelf to get closer to the lights :).

your monitor is unlikley to bask under the UV specifically, but that doesnt mean he wont use the shelf as a place to chill, nothing wrong with shelves, allot of people use them, and they are a great way to add floor space to an enclosure

my only concern would be access to the tube, monitors are powerful, you dont want him to try climbing onto it and shattering the tube, they are full of nasty things like Mercury which will kill your monitor. This is why I have my lamps, including the UV, in one bank, it all hangs from a chain, so if he touches it, the whole thing will swing and he'll fall, rather than being able to get any kind of grip - cages around the bulbs/tubes make the situation worse because that gives them something to grip onto and climb

[Toothless]

your monitor is unlikley to bask under the UV specifically, but that doesnt mean he wont use the shelf as a place to chill, nothing wrong with shelves, allot of people use them, and they are a great way to add floor space to an enclosure

my only concern would be access to the tube, monitors are powerful, you dont want him to try climbing onto it and shattering the tube, they are full of nasty things like Mercury which will kill your monitor. This is why I have my lamps, including the UV, in one bank, it all hangs from a chain, so if he touches it, the whole thing will swing and he'll fall, rather than being able to get any kind of grip - cages around the bulbs/tubes make the situation worse because that gives them something to grip onto and climb

The tube fixture is on a chain, so will swing if he bats at it, but he is smart enough to leave them alone. The basking lights are within his reach, but he won't go near them unless they are off- seems to know that they are safe to touch when off though. I'll make sure to remember this though when adding the other levels and I admit its something I didn't even think about. I'm not worried about him getting burns, but I don't want the tubes smashing. Its possible that he will try to play with the lights after I turn them off (a slim possibility, but I don't want to chance it).
Thanks for the help everyone. Sorry for the late reply but I've been pretty busy lately and forgot about this thread.

[infernalis]

Mine play tetherball with their lights.... go figure.

[Toothless]

Mine play tetherball with their lights.... go figure.

How old are your ones now Wayne? I've watched most of your videos and they are some beautiful! (The one where you got bit was priceless- not looking forward to when it happens to me though:yes: but hope I catch it on camera as well).

[B_Aller]

Just one more successful keeper adding to the pile of "UV is not necessary for varanids"
Tried all of the brands and types of bulb out there, never seen a benefit over proper husbandry, never had anyone anywhere show me actual benefits from them. Your money, time and effort are better spent improving overall husbandry.
Just my 2 cents.
Best.

[Toothless]

Just one more successful keeper adding to the pile of "UV is not necessary for varanids"
Tried all of the brands and types of bulb out there, never seen a benefit over proper husbandry, never had anyone anywhere show me actual benefits from them. Your money, time and effort are better spent improving overall husbandry.
Just my 2 cents.
Best.
I agree that the many keepers who have successfully raised and bred varanids shows that UVB is not essential, and I certainly have not seen any negative impacts from him not having access to UV lightins in the past year and a half, but figured why not... :). It certainly can't hurt and it makes me feel like I'm doing the best I can for him.
If you have any suggestions on other ways I may be able to improve his husbandry I'm all ears :).

[infernalis]

How old are your ones now Wayne?.

Fed Ex delivered them as babies on 03/13-2012 ;)

Thanks for the compliments.. appreciated.

[murrindindi]

Fed Ex delivered them as babies on 03/13-2012 ;)

Thanks for the compliments.. appreciated.


Hi Wayne, have you managed to measure them lately? I ask because you mentioned a few weeks ago that they were smaller than the average captive (they don`t seem "small" in the latest videos), though I know one was significantly larger than the other for a time, at least.

[infernalis]

They evened out now... growth has slowed, but oddly appetite has not.

close to the 30 inch mark now. They easily put down 3 chicks each (chicken hatchlings) in one feeding and look for more

I think you are correct about the size thing, the slender girth makes the whole animal appear smaller.

[Toothless]

They evened out now... growth has slowed, but oddly appetite has not.

close to the 30 inch mark now. They easily put down 3 chicks each (chicken hatchlings) in one feeding and look for more

I think you are correct about the size thing, the slender girth makes the whole animal appear smaller.

How much do you feed your guys per week? Ours are about the same age but it appears as though you may be feeding much more than I do- mine gets approx 2 chicks, 2 gerbils, and 50-100 roaches a week to maintain in good shape. It'd be nice to know if my guy's appetite is similar to yours as you have some very healthy looking savs- wish my guy looked as good as yours (he has lots of muscles, but not alot of belly tone).

[murrindindi]

How much do you feed your guys per week? Ours are about the same age but it appears as though you may be feeding much more than I do- mine gets approx 2 chicks, 2 gerbils, and 50-100 roaches a week to maintain in good shape. It'd be nice to know if my guy's appetite is similar to yours as you have some very healthy looking savs- wish my guy looked as good as yours (he has lots of muscles, but not alot of belly tone).


Hi, I think you mentioned your monitor is around 18 months old, what`s the SV or ToL just now?
In the pics you showed recently the animal is in nice condition, this species is relatively`stockily" built (having a tail around the same length as the SV adds to that appearance), they are NOT very slender as some other species are, at least once they reach maturity, which I would think he has. "Stocky" does not mean overweight.
What size are the gerbils?

[murrindindi]

They evened out now... growth has slowed, but oddly appetite has not.

close to the 30 inch mark now. They easily put down 3 chicks each (chicken hatchlings) in one feeding and look for more

I think you are correct about the size thing, the slender girth makes the whole animal appear smaller.

Thanks Wayne, their growth should pick up again, they seem to grow in spurts. It`s good to hear the smaller one has caught up, they look bigger than 30inches in the videos (obviously you`re there with them, I`m not)!?
I use chicks as a "filler" more than anything, not to suggest they aren`t nutritious (obviously mine takes slightly bigger prey).

[infernalis]

Thanks Wayne, their growth should pick up again, they seem to grow in spurts. It`s good to hear the smaller one has caught up, they look bigger than 30inches in the videos (obviously you`re there with them, I`m not)!?
I use chicks as a "filler" more than anything, not to suggest they aren`t nutritious (obviously mine takes slightly bigger prey).

You may be right, I really need to pin one down and measure it, surely a food offer afterward will bribe him to not retaliate.

They still sort of give each other little nips and nudges, but the back riding has either slowed or is happening when I am not looking.

[murrindindi]

They still sort of give each other little nips and nudges, but the back riding has either slowed or is happening when I am not looking.

That`s to be expected living together.
If you occasionally take your eyes off them for a moment they may well not have slowed down in the domination stakes after all??....... :)

[Toothless]

Hi, I think you mentioned your monitor is around 18 months old, what`s the SV or ToL just now?
In the pics you showed recently the animal is in nice condition, this species is relatively`stockily" built (having a tail around the same length as the SV adds to that appearance), they are NOT very slender as some other species are, at least once they reach maturity, which I would think he has. "Stocky" does not mean overweight.
What size are the gerbils?

The ToL is approximately 3 feet- I have to wait until he lays stretched out on something then take an approx length so the ToL is a pretty close estimate- I can't measure him directly. He's just starting another shed, so he may be going threw another growth spurt.

The gerbils are pretty close to full sized (sometimes I substitute four mice if my supply's running low).

I agree he's not overweight, but when I look at Wayne's photos their stomach's appear much more toned and muscled then my guy's- just wondering if that means something, or if he's just starting to fill out...

[formica]

could be down to the diffrence in enviroment, infernalis enclosure is flat with a bit of room to run around, yours is all about climbing, those two types of activities require different kinds of muscle development - or it might just be down to age, or genetics, i'm just speculating

[murrindindi]

The ToL is approximately 3 feet- I have to wait until he lays stretched out on something then take an approx length so the ToL is a pretty close estimate- I can't measure him directly. He's just starting another shed, so he may be going threw another growth spurt.

The gerbils are pretty close to full sized (sometimes I substitute four mice if my supply's running low).

I agree he's not overweight, but when I look at Wayne's photos their stomach's appear much more toned and muscled then my guy's- just wondering if that means something, or if he's just starting to fill out...


Hi again, I think if the monitor is around 3 feet ToL he`s doing o.k (so are you).
In my opinion, Wayne`s monitors were at one point underfed, the smaller animal in particular had very little body condition. I understand it was mainly because of the larger animal dominated the feedings which is natural under the circumstances.
I know that Wayne has taken steps to make sure they both get their share of the food now and the smaller has caught up in size which is great to hear. I think they both look in better condition than they have for some time at the moment, judging by the latest video and photos.

It`s easier to get either the SV or tail length, then double those for the ToL, it won`t be too far out.

[Toothless]

It`s easier to get either the SV or tail length, then double those for the ToL, it won`t be too far out.
I'll have to give that a try and see if I get a different ToL- its pretty hard to find him completely stretched out so this idea will most likely work better.

Just one quick question, I read in another thread that if they are basking for more than 15 minutes it means the basking temp is too low- is this true?
I ask because my guy basks for between 20-40 minutes a few times a day, and sometimes for as long as an hour. The basking temp is 155F last I checked, but will take another reading once he's done using it (don't want to loose any fingers today :) ). He always basks right underneath the lights, where its at its hottest. Does this mean that I should raise the temp a bit more?

[Toothless]

[QUOTE=murrindindi;865008]Hi again, I think if the monitor is around 3 feet ToL he`s doing o.k (so are you). QUOTE]
Thanks :). I'd like him to be around for many years so am trying to do the best I can by him. He's a member of the family now- albeit a pretty grumpy member most of the time, but we love him anyways :).

**not sure why the quote didn't work... oh well***

[formica]

as they get larger they need longer under the lamps

[Toothless]

I just got a pretty accurate SV length of 19 inches :). Thanks for the tip.

[murrindindi]

I'll have to give that a try and see if I get a different ToL- its pretty hard to find him completely stretched out so this idea will most likely work better.

Just one quick question, I read in another thread that if they are basking for more than 15 minutes it means the basking temp is too low- is this true?
I ask because my guy basks for between 20-40 minutes a few times a day, and sometimes for as long as an hour. The basking temp is 155F last I checked, but will take another reading once he's done using it (don't want to loose any fingers today :) ). He always basks right underneath the lights, where its at its hottest. Does this mean that I should raise the temp a bit more?


You need to ask the people that say they shouldn`t need to bask for more than 15 minutes what size of monitor they`re talking about and what it`s core temp was at the start of basking, otherwise the figure is fairly meaningless, considering the animal may have just emerged from the "night" retreat and be relatively cool (core temp around the mid to high 70`s F).
My (male) Asian Water monitor weighs around 13.5kl. just now, I`d be interested to know how long he "should" bask for at any one time in order to determine whether the surface temp is sufficiently high as it`s around 60c (140f)? ;)
Obviously, once they warm up they return to bask intermittently throughout the day, usually just for short periods to slightly adjust their temps.

[murrindindi]

I just got a pretty accurate SV length of 19 inches :). Thanks for the tip.


That means he`s likely to be over 3 feet ToL, probably one metre (39inches, or close to it). Can you get a weight measurement?

[Toothless]

That means he`s likely to be over 3 feet ToL, probably one metre (39inches, or close to it). Can you get a weight measurement?
How can I go about getting a weight on him? He's getting close to letting me pick him up, but is not quite there yet- he did let me pet him a few times today which is a MAJOR breakthrough! :) :)
Thank you for the info on basking behaviour- it was very informative.

[murrindindi]

How can I go about getting a weight on him? He's getting close to letting me pick him up, but is not quite there yet- he did let me pet him a few times today which is a MAJOR breakthrough! :) :)
Thank you for the info on basking behaviour- it was very informative.


The easiest way to weigh him would be to place a box with some food inside in the enclosure, when he goes in close it and weigh both, then deduct the box from the total.

[B_Aller]

To weigh my animals I use the pvc pipe trick.
put a large diameter pvc pipe with one capped end and a two small holes drilled in the top in your enclosure, by the next morning your monitor should be inside (curiosity) cap the other end and use the small holes to hang on a fish scale, return the monitor to cage and weigh pipe etc.
Fish scales are nice, they are super cheap and you can hang just about anything on them, snake bags, pillow cases etc.
Best

[smy_749]

Ben, won't the moni get closterphobic and have a panic attack? Hahaha

edit: clausterphobia? closter...you get it

[murrindindi]

To weigh my animals I use the pvc pipe trick.
put a large diameter pvc pipe with one capped end and a two small holes drilled in the top in your enclosure, by the next morning your monitor should be inside (curiosity) cap the other end and use the small holes to hang on a fish scale, return the monitor to cage and weigh pipe etc.
Fish scales are nice, they are super cheap and you can hang just about anything on them, snake bags, pillow cases etc.
Best


Hi Ben, that may be an even better idea than mine, though obviously I`m not going to admit it in public.... ( I answered first, though). :)
I too use fishing scales for weighing them (seriously).

[Toothless]

They are both very great ideas ;).
I've never thought to use a fish scale, but it sounds much easier than stepping on the scale with a pissed off monitor :) (even if he is in a box).
I'll have to look around for a fish scale (I think my dad may have one) and get back to you all on his weight.
I couldn't even guess at a weight as I havn't picked him up since he escaped at 6 months old.

[murrindindi]

They are both very great ideas ;).
I've never thought to use a fish scale, but it sounds much easier than stepping on the scale with a pissed off monitor :) (even if he is in a box).
I'll have to look around for a fish scale (I think my dad may have one) and get back to you all on his weight.
I couldn't even guess at a weight as I havn't picked him up since he escaped at 6 months old.


Hi, I`m going to guess he weighs around 2kilos or so (4lbs +)?
If I`m completely wrong please forget this post... :)

[B_Aller]

Hi Ben, that may be an even better idea than mine, though obviously I`m not going to admit it in public.... ( I answered first, though). :)
I too use fishing scales for weighing them (seriously).

:) I think as long as you don't admit it in public you're good. Secret's safe with me.

I can't take credit for the fish scale idea, that was passed on to me by Sam Sweet, although who knows where that grumpy old guy got it!
B

[infernalis]

bet if you asked on kingsnake I know who would take credit for it....

[varanus_mad]

bet if you asked on kingsnake I know who would take credit for it....

Tee hee hee

[nepoez]

The ToL is approximately 3 feet- I have to wait until he lays stretched out on something then take an approx length so the ToL is a pretty close estimate- I can't measure him directly. He's just starting another shed, so he may be going threw another growth spurt.

The gerbils are pretty close to full sized (sometimes I substitute four mice if my supply's running low).

I agree he's not overweight, but when I look at Wayne's photos their stomach's appear much more toned and muscled then my guy's- just wondering if that means something, or if he's just starting to fill out...
Ab machine and sit up?