Sick cali king...PLZ HELP!!!!

[Heather7875]

We bought a striped cali king snake 4 months ago. He/she has a great temperment and has been doing great until about 3 weeks ago. He/she has regurgitated the last three pinkies. last night we gave him/her a bath and noticed he/she is very weak. we tried to feed him/her again last night (it's been 4 days since last feeding which was regurgitated the next day) because we figure he needs nutrients. But he/she didn't even eat it. And he/she LOVES to eat this is the first time every he/she has not ate. Today he is moving around but very differently. :confused: His/her head will shake back and forth or up and down. We are very worried and don't know what else to do. we feel so bad for him/her. the warm side during the day is about 90 to 92 degrees and about 85 at night. temp on cool side is 75 during the day and about 72 at night. PLEASE HELP! this is our first snake and he/she is so cute with a great personality we don't want to lose him/her. His/her name is Snipe!!

[Heather7875]

Please help someone!!! :(

[Heather7875]

nevermind...I did some research and figured it was IBD...poor guy! He is no longer with us. So sad! :( We really loved that snake.
I will not buy another snake at persmart. May not be there fault, but I wouldn't dout it. Being that it is highly contagious and they don't know that the snakes have it by the time they get rid of them. Its weird cause this is not typical in Kingsnakes.
Of to research a good breeder to buy from. :) Not giving up!!

[bcr229]

1) King snakes don't get IBD. Many other diseases mimic IBD, especially at the end as the snakes have seizures or stargaze as they die.

2) If it were IBD (which I don't believe it is) and you did your research, you would know that your home shouldn't have any snakes in it for at least a year so as not to risk infecting others.

3) I would have the snake necropsied so as not to risk others coming into the house, just in case it did have a viral infection. There are quite a few out there, IBD just gets the most blame.

[Heather7875]

1) King snakes don't get IBD. Many other diseases mimic IBD, especially at the end as the snakes have seizures or stargaze as they die.

2) If it were IBD (which I don't believe it is) and you did your research, you would know that your home shouldn't have any snakes in it for at least a year so as not to risk infecting others.

3) I would have the snake necropsied so as not to risk others coming into the house, just in case it did have a viral infection. There are quite a few out there, IBD just gets the most blame.


Thank you so so much for that info. I was wondering because I couldn't find anything that had a kingsnake with IBD. Now, when I say research, I mean google, which isn't saying much, LOL!:no: so thanks a million. what do you think it was being that it was a kingsnake? I really thought we were doing go until he started regurgitating the last three feedings.

[Heather7875]

then within two days he was really sick...it was just so quick because I didn't realize that the regugitation could be a symptom.

[KORBIN5895]

How are you measuring the temps and what are you using to regulate the heat?

[Heather7875]

I have two temperture gauges...one on the cool side and one on the warm side. I also have pad at the bottom of the tank.

[KORBIN5895]

How high off the floor are the thermometers?

[Heather7875]

the one on the warm side is about 3 inches and on the cool side about 6 inches...reason they are different is because we realized after we should move them lower to where the snake mostly is and the cooler side wouldn't come off so easy so I just left that one where is which is why it is so high from floor. 87 *F at night warm side; 92 *F daytime warm side. 74 *F cool side night; 78 * F cool side day.
and I want another king snake... we are thinking of getting a mexican black king. still researching about differnt kings out there.

[KORBIN5895]

It sounds to me like he got too hot. Those stick on ones are very inaccurate. Couple that with the fact that you aren't regulating your heat source it could've been way hotter than you thought. What has been the outside temperatures there for the last three weeks?

[Heather7875]

then what is a good way to get accurate temp. readings?
they say their temp can be lowered at night to mimic their natural environment. We use a night light for night time and a day light at 60 watts during the day sitting on top of screen. Plust the heat mat stays on all night.
We were just using the night light all the time, however when he started regurgutating we thought he may not be digesting properly because it is not hot enought like the dessert gets which is his natrual habitat. Sucks cause we thought we were doing a good thing, and what!!??? Now I realize we were hurting him. we also bought the most expensive stick on thermostat thinking we got the better one...guess not! UGG! so discouraging!!!

[Mikoh4792]

the one on the warm side is about 3 inches and on the cool side about 6 inches...reason they are different is because we realized after we should move them lower to where the snake mostly is and the cooler side wouldn't come off so easy so I just left that one where is which is why it is so high from floor. 87 *F at night warm side; 92 *F daytime warm side. 74 *F cool side night; 78 * F cool side day.
and I want another king snake... we are thinking of getting a mexican black king. still researching about differnt kings out there.

If you were reading 92F 3 inches off the floor the actual warm side was probably much hotter. As someone else has said your snake could have been getting too hot.

[Heather7875]

heat mat all night and day!

[Mikoh4792]

then what is a good way to get accurate temp. readings?
they say their temp can be lowered at night to mimic their natural environment. We use a night light for night time and a day light at 60 watts during the day sitting on top of screen. Plust the heat mat stays on all night.
We were just using the night light all the time, however when he started regurgutating we thought he may not be digesting properly because it is not hot enought like the dessert gets which is his natrual habitat. Sucks cause we thought we were doing a good thing, and what!!??? Now I realize we were hurting him. we also bought the most expensive stick on thermostat thinking we got the better one...guess not! UGG! so discouraging!!!

Use a thermostat to control your heat sources.

If you use both a heat light and heat mat without controlling them your cage can get too hot, which it probably did in this case.

[Heather7875]

thank y'all so much for every bit of advice. we really loved this snake...first one for both of us. and we want another, but don't want this to happen again.

[Heather7875]

I was controlling them...that's why I'm so confused
I watched the temp several times throughout the day. would call hubby to make sure he checked and it was always consistant.

[Heather7875]

and I did use thermostates...two

[Mikoh4792]

Even if you were controlling them with thermostats, you were basing your temps off the wrong spot by placing the thermometer 3 inches off the ground. Where did you have your thermostat probes placed?

[Heather7875]

Even if you were controlling them with thermostats, you were basing your temps off the wrong spot by placing the thermometer 3 inches off the ground. Where did you have your thermostat probes placed?


ok, what is a thermostat prob...sorry, guess I really don't know much at all dang.

[Heather7875]

I really need that to keep my snakes alive...the temp difference can't be that much of a difference. Sorry not being rude. just really don't get that scientifically. He did fine with that temp for three months. So does it take that long for temp to affect them?

[KORBIN5895]

I was controlling them...that's why I'm so confused
I watched the temp several times throughout the day. would call hubby to make sure he checked and it was always consistant.

No, you were using thermometers to check the temperature. A thermostat is a device that actually regulates the power flow to your heat source exactly like a thermostat on your wall controls your heater.

From what you are telling me your snake almost definitely died from over heating. Especially when you used a heat mat and a heat lamp 24/7.

[milk man]

The ground temp could be 30-40*F higher than air temp. you need a thermometer that would come in contact with the bedding. Even measuring a 1/2" off the floor will give you a much lower temp then contact with the floor of the cage.

[Mikoh4792]

I really need that to keep my snakes alive...the temp difference can't be that much of a difference. Sorry not being rude. just really don't get that scientifically. He did fine with that temp for three months. So does it take that long for temp to affect them?

I'm not saying that your snake died of overheating, I'm just saying it's a possibility given that you were basing your temps off the wrong location in the enclosure. If you read 92F 3 inches off the floor while using a heat mat, it means that where your snake is lying is much hotter.

If your snake did die of overheating, then it's possible that it was slowly killing him over the months until he couldn't take it anymore.

[Mikoh4792]

ok, what is a thermostat prob...sorry, guess I really don't know much at all dang.

How were you using a thermostat without knowing what a probe is?

[Mikoh4792]

Could you post pictures of your setup?

[Heather7875]

thank you both for the info. it is very much appreciated!

Do either of you know a great breeder for kingsnakes?

[Heather7875]

Could you post pictures of your setup?

Sure. Let me send email myself so i have on computer and can post. :)

[Mikoh4792]

thank you both for the info. it is very much appreciated!

Do either of you know a great breeder for kingsnakes?

check faunaclassifieds.com or kingsnake.com and go to the kingsnake section.

[Heather7875]

ok...so i had a typo. I don't have a thermostat in my terrariums...LOL. that would be freakin funny!!!
i have the two thermometers that tells me the temperature. Come on now.
Probe is...well, I won't go there...LMMFAO!!
I would think i would only need a probe if i was raising snakes. Am I incorrect in saying that? :blink:

[KORBIN5895]

thank you both for the info. it is very much appreciated!
?

This may sound silly but could you tell me what you learned from this thread?


If your snake did die of overheating, then it's possible that it was slowly killing him over the months until he couldn't take it anymore.

Over heating actually kills them fairly quickly. It could've also had to do with higher room temps.

[Heather7875]

my room temp is 72 to 74

[Mikoh4792]

Over heating actually kills them fairly quickly. It could've also had to do with higher room temps.

Ah I see. I was assuming it had to do with how extreme the temperatures were( a little above the threshold killing slowly, and extremely high temps killing faster)

[Mikoh4792]

I would think i would only need a probe if i was raising snakes. Am I incorrect in saying that? :blink:

I don't understand this post. Were you not raising a snake?

[milk man]

I don't understand this post. Were you not raising a snake?

It took me a minute too. I think she meant a sexing probe.

[Heather7875]

[QUOTE=Mikoh4792;859814]Could you post pictures of your setup?[/QI

I don't know how to post a pic this way...sorry. will try tomorrow.

[KORBIN5895]

Ah I see. I was assuming it had to do with how extreme the temperatures were( a little above the threshold killing slowly, and extremely high temps killing faster)

You are correct that a little high for a long period of time will cause a slow death. I was thinking along the lines of a temp spike in the room.

ok...so i had a typo. I don't have a thermostat in my terrariums...LOL. that would be freakin funny!!!
i have the two thermometers that tells me the temperature. Come on now.:

Actually every responsible keeper uses a thermostat in there tank to control the temperatures. I don't think you grasp what you actually nerd to successfully keep a snake. The probe Mikoh is talking about is part of the thermostat not a tool used for sexing a snake.

[ErikBush97]

Since no one else has said it, I will. I think you should do research for a few months, come here and ask any questions you may have, and then once you feel confident that you know what you're doing, buy another snake. Your snakes death may have been something that was not in your control, like a disease, etc, or something you did do.
Either way, you should kind of look around google, and reptile forums, and articles on caring for the type of snake you want. Snakes aren't like dogs or cats. If you find a dog/cat for sale, you can bring it home, give it some food, and call it good for awhile. Snakes require a lot more care than that, and it takes a lot of research on that particular type of snake to know what it needs. Want a Cal King? Google "How to care for a Cali King Snake" and watch a few care videos, and look through a few articles. That's the best way to do it. I think you got the snake a little early, honestly. Not because it died, but because it does not seem like you've got everything fully under control. I do not mean any disrespect. I am only trying to help.

[Will0W783]

Just a thought, but was this snake autopsied? From the rapid decline, along with the regurgitation and neurological signs, it sounds to me like it could be paramyxovirus. This is a 100% fatal, incurable retrovirus that causes snakes to regurgitate, show respiratory distress (in most but not all cases) and exhibit neurological signs similar to IBD. It's very contagious and kills rapidly.
There have been collections in which colubrids were infected with IBD by sick boas/pythons;however, in most of the case studies that I've read, the colubrids didn't actually display symptoms but were merely carriers. However, I do think there have been a few cases where colubrids died in IBD-infested mixed-species collections.

[Kettennatter]

The feedback on the thermostat is indeed correct, and measure the surface temperature with a temp gun. Also, with most native North American snakes I would approach heat as supplemental, meaning that I would err on the side of lower temperatures.

I remember reading a research paper from Wittenberg University (http://www.sierraherps.com/files/3513/7123/6051/Rausch__Phillips_2013_L_mexicana_captive_growth.pd f) on Mexican king snakes and their metabolism at different temperatures. Overall, they metabolize their food rather effectively even close to room temperature. (This also mirrors my own experience.)

What I'm saying is: Increase the temperature gradient in your king snakes' enclosure gradually and see where the snake ends up. If in doubt, opt for the lower temperature.

We don't know for sure what killed your CA king, but they are generally one of the easier types of snakes to keep.

[Kettennatter]

Just a thought, but was this snake autopsied? From the rapid decline, along with the regurgitation and neurological signs, it sounds to me like it could be paramyxovirus. This is a 100% fatal, incurable retrovirus that causes snakes to regurgitate, show respiratory distress (in most but not all cases) and exhibit neurological signs similar to IBD. It's very contagious and kills rapidly.
There have been collections in which colubrids were infected with IBD by sick boas/pythons;however, in most of the case studies that I've read, the colubrids didn't actually display symptoms but were merely carriers. However, I do think there have been a few cases where colubrids died in IBD-infested mixed-species collections.

Interesting, I wasn't aware that colubrids could be more than a vector for IBD. Do you have any idea how common paramyxoviral infections have become?

[Valvaren]

I know he has me on ignore but that was just to much...

To the OP there is a lot to take in right now, a lot to learn and though things might seem a bit overwhelming and confusing right now if you keep asking questions you'll get the hang of it and the next time you bring a snake home it'll be much easier on both you and the animal.

First I would keep working on getting your set up right, such as figuring out your thermostats and how you plan on heating your tank/tub. Once you get this part fixed everything else will be smooth sailing.

[Will0W783]

Guys, seriously, let's keep the personal attacks and vendettas to PMs. This person came to the forum seeking advice, and it's turned into a pi$$ing match between existing members. We used to be better than this- I get tired of seeing all this needless drama, and it's a big part of why I rarely post on here anymore. I am sure I'm not the only one getting sick and tired of having to wade through pages and pages of bickering to find the nuggets of information and questions in a thread. *smh*

As for inclusion body disease and colubrids, they are a known vector of the disease but do not show symptoms in most cases. It's thought that colubrids exposed to IBD-infected boid snakes might harbor the disease and pass it on to future boids they are exposed to, but the exact mechanisms are not well understood. I've read an account of king snakes dying of IBD-like symptoms in a collection where a few Red-tailed boas had been previously diagnosed with IBD and euthanized; however, I can't remember where I found that post (it was years ago when I was trying to research to understand during a potential scare in my collection, which thankfully turned out not to be IBD).

Viperid snakes, especially crotalids, also can become infected and die from IBD; there are several scholarly articles about this on Pubmed.gov

Paramyxovirus is not terribly common, but it is far more common than IBD. I couldn't give you actual statistics, as they are probably unknown, but it does look an awful lot like IBD symptom-wise. The main difference is the rate of onset and deterioration- a snake with IBD will not die from the disease itself, but rather from malnourishment and inability to control its muscles. This process takes months....it's a messy, ugly, sad decline followed by a merciful death. Paramyxo on the other hand will take a reptile down in a week or two at most. The animal will appear healthy, perhaps a sneeze or two, or very mild RI signs, then within a matter of days, it will be mouth-breathing, contorting, unable to move correctly....then paralysis sets in. The final stages are loss of pupillary reflex.
I would honestly think that, judging by the time course and symptoms described, paramyxovirus is a far more likely cause of the OP's king snake's death than overheating or poison exposure. It just fits. However, it's impossible to know without an autopsy.

To the OP, make sure any and all materials and cage furnishings that the snake came in contact with are disinfected thoroughly. A 10-20% bleach solution sprayed on and allowed to sit for 10-15 minutes before thorough rinsing should suffice, but if you can find a quaternary ammonia-based cleaner, this would be even better. I clean with stuff called DC-10 that I get from lab supply companies. It will kill parasites, viruses, bacteria and mold....great stuff and it smells clean and fresh!

As per others' suggestions, taking this time to do some further research on whatever species you intend to keep next is a good idea. You can never be too prepared. When you are ready with a clean enclosure, proper temperature and humidity gauges, and a qualified reptile vet on hand, I'm sure you'll find another snake that will suit you. I'm sorry you had to endure the loss of your first snake- it's a hard hit to take, but unfortunately things do happen when we are working with live animals, and snakes require very specialized care and knowledge in order to thrive...even the most common of species.

[Heather7875]

ok, wow!
Well, I have learned a lot from this thread...geezz...lol

thanks to all who have helped. I am getting another Cali king after I do more research. Thought I did a lot the first go round. Guess not enough. and from what I was reading my temps were perfect for him.

thanks so much for the cleaning solution you gave Willow.
and trust me. we are not getting another snake anytime soon.

[Mikoh4792]

from what I was reading my temps were perfect for him.

Your temps were off. You were reading 92F 3 inches above the ground where your snake was. You have to read the temperature on the floor for the hotspot, not the air. Not only that you have to read temps with an accurate thermometer.

[Heather7875]

I will definitely get a temp gun because obviously the thermometers aren't that great if two didn't help. But honestly, I dont think this was heat related. Especially after everything I have read.
Thanks again for all the advice peeps! :)

Going do a little more research and digging through forums...lol

[Heather7875]

Your temps were off. You were reading 92F 3 inches above the ground where your snake was. You have to read the temperature on the floor for the hotspot, not the air. Not only that you have to read temps with an accurate thermometer.

well, I thought they were acurate themometers...lol
But i will be getting a temp gun now. Thanks!

[Heather7875]

now i feel so bad...really hope he didn't fry... :(

[Heather7875]

ok everyone,
So what should my temps be in the tank for a cali king? Its a 40 gallon glass enclosure with screen top. have night light 60watts and day light 60watts and also a heat pad. what should I use? I'm asking because i had a few ppl say or I read that I don't need the pad if i have the light and vice versa...

[Heather7875]

approx about 1ft tall and 2 1/2 feet long...
again APPROX...

[Mikoh4792]

now i feel so bad...really hope he didn't fry... :(

Don't feel bad. I am not saying your snake died of overheating, all I am saying is that your temps were off, which is obvious because you were reading them in the wrong spots.

ok everyone,
So what should my temps be in the tank for a cali king? Its a 40 gallon glass enclosure with screen top. have night light 60watts and day light 60watts and also a heat pad. what should I use? I'm asking because i had a few ppl say or I read that I don't need the pad if i have the light and vice versa...

I give my cali king a 88-92F hotspot during the day, and the ambient air temperatures will be 80-84.

At night if the room is above 75F I will shut off all heat sources. You don't need to give your snake a night drop but I do. I've found that my snakes come out at night and are much more active this way.

About not needing the heat pad if you have a light... that really depends on how you control your heat with a thermostat. Get a thermostat first, for both of them.

[snakeman879]

Most american snakes do well with only a heat mat exept the boa family wich prefer higher ambient temps wich only a ir bulb or ceramic bulb would be able to do ther for ur snake probably did over heat sadly

[KORBIN5895]

Most american snakes do well with only a heat mat exept the boa family wich prefer higher ambient temps wich only a ir bulb or ceramic bulb would be able to do ther for ur snake probably did over heat sadly

Radiant heat panels are a way better choice than either bulb you mentioned.

[lisas]

My corn snake likes it about 80 during the day and down to 70 (just turn off red lamp)at night. Had her 5 years now and bought her as an adult.

I'm sorry for your loss. My blue tongue skink died from the opposite prob. - I let his tank get too cold (10 degrees) without realizing it this past winter. Do I regret that. He was treated for resp. infec. but to make a long story short, didn't recover. I feel your pain. I'm still trying to forgive myself. I loved him. His name was Daru.