Intelligence between different types of snakes

[Mikoh4792]

Is one group generally smarter than another? For example: carpet pythons to ball pythons, bci/bcc to other boas, rat snakes to king snakes, or even generally speaking, boids to colubrids.

[KORBIN5895]

Boas are the smartest.

[red ink]

Elapidaes - particularly Oxyuranus

[Terranaut]

Pretty sure the King Cobra (Ophiophagus Hannah) is number one. I know they build nests and males are territorial. I have heard Indigos are also very intelligent. I also remember reading both of these recognise different people which most snakes do not. I am at work but when I get home I will find the stuff I read and post links.

[infernalis]

Thamnophis - Garter snakes.

They do display behaviours that seem to indicate that there is more going on inside that head than eat, sleep, breed.

Mine watch me vacuum the rugs.

[Concept9]

I agree with the Eastern Indigo, I have read the same things and seen a couple YouTube videos on them. Will see if I can find them when I get off work as well.

[Mikoh4792]

I too have heard that indigos are one of the more intelligent species of snakes, under the king cobra.

I wonder if there is any significant or notable differences in intelligence between the snakes we keep in capitivity(pythons vs boas..etc).

[Mikoh4792]

Thamnophis - Garter snakes.

They do display behaviours that seem to indicate that there is more going on inside that head than eat, sleep, breed.

Mine watch me vacuum the rugs.

Interesting.

[Kettennatter]

I would agree with garter snakes. Not because they watch me sweep, which they do, but because they condition very quickly, such as distinguishing the feeding bowl from other objects in their enclosure.

[infernalis]

I would agree with garter snakes. Not because they watch me sweep, which they do, but because they condition very quickly, such as distinguishing the feeding bowl from other objects in their enclosure.

Even wild specimens display curiosity. I have documented that by animals fleeing and returning multiple times while photographing.

One incident I will always remember, a young male scooted off while I continued photographing a bigger female that didn't seem real bothered by my presence, within about 45 seconds, he returned, out in the open, when I pointed my camera his direction, he would again flee, only to show back up.

Apparently, that shiny thing had his curiosity going.

[Will0W783]

I've heard that the Elapids (cobras and mambas especially) are the most intelligent of snakes, with the king cobra and mabas being at the top.

However, I think it really depends on how we define "intelligence." Humans are social creatures; we've evolved to operate in groups and therefore have a large capacity for adaptive learning and cooperation. Most snakes are solitary creatures; they do not need to work in groups, and many are simply ambush hunters. They have highly evolved sensory cortex (areas of the brain that process sensory information), well-developed cerebellum (motor control) but little to no frontal cortex (executive control, judgement, behavioral inhibition, working memory). They simply don't need that aspect; therefore, evolution resulted in development of the brain areas they do need.

Some snakes are more social in nature- for example, garter snakes hibernate in huge dens, mambas tend to do better when kept in groups, so they would need more adaptations in frontal areas to allow them to exist in the groups successfully.

Furthermore, booid snakes (boas/pythons) are evolutionarily the oldest group - these animals have existed basically unchanged since the age of dinosaurs and even retain remnants of a pelvic girdle and legs (spurs). Colubrids, elapids and vipers all evolved more recently, and lack these characteristics. They have evolved to fit different niches in the environments; thus, each class is unique, yet they are all newer than boids. Colubrids are thought to have evolved after boids, with elapids and vipers developing from the colubrids as more efficient venom-delivery apparati were evolved. Thus, it would make sense that these animals are more "Intelligent" than boids- they have had more evolutionary pressure.

[Mikoh4792]

I've heard that the Elapids (cobras and mambas especially) are the most intelligent of snakes, with the king cobra and mabas being at the top.

However, I think it really depends on how we define "intelligence." Humans are social creatures; we've evolved to operate in groups and therefore have a large capacity for adaptive learning and cooperation. Most snakes are solitary creatures; they do not need to work in groups, and many are simply ambush hunters. They have highly evolved sensory cortex (areas of the brain that process sensory information), well-developed cerebellum (motor control) but little to no frontal cortex (executive control, judgement, behavioral inhibition, working memory). They simply don't need that aspect; therefore, evolution resulted in development of the brain areas they do need.

Some snakes are more social in nature- for example, garter snakes hibernate in huge dens, mambas tend to do better when kept in groups, so they would need more adaptations in frontal areas to allow them to exist in the groups successfully.

Furthermore, booid snakes (boas/pythons) are evolutionarily the oldest group - these animals have existed basically unchanged since the age of dinosaurs and even retain remnants of a pelvic girdle and legs (spurs). Colubrids, elapids and vipers all evolved more recently, and lack these characteristics. They have evolved to fit different niches in the environments; thus, each class is unique, yet they are all newer than boids. Colubrids are thought to have evolved after boids, with elapids and vipers developing from the colubrids as more efficient venom-delivery apparati were evolved. Thus, it would make sense that these animals are more "Intelligent" than boids- they have had more evolutionary pressure.

Mind=blown

Thus, it would make sense that these animals are more "Intelligent" than boids- they have had more evolutionary pressure.

So would you consider ratsnakes, king snakes...etc to be more intelligent than boids in general?

[lady_bug87]

Boas are the smartest.

My boa eats her food backwards and sails through her own poop.

Soooo smart

[Kettennatter]

Even wild specimens display curiosity. I have documented that by animals fleeing and returning multiple times while photographing.

One incident I will always remember, a young male scooted off while I continued photographing a bigger female that didn't seem real bothered by my presence, within about 45 seconds, he returned, out in the open, when I pointed my camera his direction, he would again flee, only to show back up.

Apparently, that shiny thing had his curiosity going.

It's that very fast evaluation cycle of danger/benefit that got my attention, and the way that garters seem to be able to tune their response. In the wild they may exist in your immediate vicinity and (correctly) not react to you as a threat.

My garters can distinguish different feeding bowls from water bowls and other objects that I have in their enclosure, even if the feeding bowl contains no food whatsoever, and respond differently. While this is true with many other snakes, garters seem to be able to adjust very quickly. This is in contrast to my BCI, which took quite a while to condition.

P.S.: I have no experience with Elapids, so I would have to take somebody's word on their intelligence.

[Kettennatter]

My boa eats her food backwards and sails through her own poop.

Soooo smart

The same with mine. She has however figured out how to adjust the humidity in her enclosure.

[Kettennatter]

[...] Colubrids are thought to have evolved after boids, with elapids and vipers developing from the colubrids as more efficient venom-delivery apparati were evolved. Thus, it would make sense that these animals are more "Intelligent" than boids- they have had more evolutionary pressure.

The fact that colubrids have evolved after boids makes perfect sense in that regard. However, it still leaves us with the question of how we define intelligence for the sake of this discussion. Since I don't think that snakes are truly social, and intelligence cannot be inferred through social interaction, I would consider it largely the ability to adapt to a changing environment.

[ra94131]

My JCP appears to watch TV from his perch. I'm not sure what about it intrigues him so much, but it is amusing to see. He extends himself out from the branch and just stares straight at it.

I don't know how much intelligence snakes really have, but there are times that their innate instincts impress me 100x more than the best trained dogs.

[Mikoh4792]

My JCP appears to watch TV from his perch. I'm not sure what about it intrigues him so much, but it is amusing to see. He extends himself out from the branch and just stares straight at it.

I don't know how much intelligence snakes really have, but there are times that their innate instincts impress me 100x more than the best trained dogs.

sometimes my corn will peek out of his hide and just stare at me using my laptop. Such a creeper.

[pdomensis]

My JCP appears to watch TV from his perch. I'm not sure what about it intrigues him so much, but it is amusing to see. He extends himself out from the branch and just stares straight at it.

I don't know how much intelligence snakes really have, but there are times that their innate instincts impress me 100x more than the best trained dogs.

What shows does he like? If he watches Dr. Who or Firefly I think we can infer more intelligence than if he watches The View. :)

[Terranaut]

What shows does he like? If he watches Dr. Who or Firefly I think we can infer more intelligence than if he watches The View. :)

I so agree. Many of my snakes watch me when I am in the snake room. Some even go so far as to come out of the their hides. My Jag comes up to the glass and peeks out almost every day.

[Aaron_S]

Why does this question continue to come up on this forum? Or some form of it.

It's like people say "Hmm, I haven't seen Aaron pissed off lately. How can I do this?" or "I haven't seen Aaron rant about this in awhile so let's make a thread."

If you want to know how smart snakes are just see any "aggressive" snake bash it's face off it's enclosure continually, never learning that there's a wall there that they can't get through...no matter how injured their face is.

[Terranaut]

Why does this question continue to come up on this forum? Or some form of it.

It's like people say "Hmm, I haven't seen Aaron pissed off lately. How can I do this?" or "I haven't seen Aaron rant about this in awhile so let's make a thread."

If you want to know how smart snakes are just see any "aggressive" snake bash it's face off it's enclosure continually, never learning that there's a wall there that they can't get through...no matter how injured their face is.


I guess it is kind of like asking which turtle runs the fastest.

[smy_749]

I guess it is kind of like asking which turtle runs the fastest.

There are some fast turtles actually :P Soft shell comes to mind

[Terranaut]

There are some fast turtles actually :P Soft shell comes to mind

Noooooooooooo!!!
;)

[lady_bug87]

Why does this question continue to come up on this forum? Or some form of it.

It's like people say "Hmm, I haven't seen Aaron pissed off lately. How can I do this?" or "I haven't seen Aaron rant about this in awhile so let's make a thread."

If you want to know how smart snakes are just see any "aggressive" snake bash it's face off it's enclosure continually, never learning that there's a wall there that they can't get through...no matter how injured their face is.

I personally enjoy when you're all feisty

[StudentoReptile]

First word when I saw this thread..."anthropomorphism"

[red ink]

Why does this question continue to come up on this forum? Or some form of it.

It's like people say "Hmm, I haven't seen Aaron pissed off lately. How can I do this?" or "I haven't seen Aaron rant about this in awhile so let's make a thread."

If you want to know how smart snakes are just see any "aggressive" snake bash it's face off it's enclosure continually, never learning that there's a wall there that they can't get through...no matter how injured their face is.

Hamster = 1
Bart = 0
Snake = doesn't even know there's a test

[Mikoh4792]

First word when I saw this thread..."anthropomorphism"

Im not anthropomorphising snakes. Just trying to compare intelligence between different species.

[Terranaut]

I think the point is they are so dumb even the smartest of them are still stupid as wood.

[Mikoh4792]

are still stupid as wood.

lol

I agree. However, I still think it's interesting to compare the differences no matter how small they are. The differences are still there.

[smy_749]

Aaron's comment doesn't mean they have 'no' intelligence. It just shows like Terr said, they aren't chimpanzees or domestic dogs/cats. They do however show some level of intelligence with things like hook training I think. Though, admittedly, I can't think of any other 'tricks' that snakes can learn besides that one LOL

[Mikoh4792]

Aaron's comment doesn't mean they have 'no' intelligence. It just shows like Terr said, they aren't chimpanzees or domestic dogs/cats. They do however show some level of intelligence with things like hook training I think. Though, admittedly, I can't think of any other 'tricks' that snakes can learn besides that one LOL

I understood what he said. The purpose of this thread is not about how intelligent snakes are, but how intelligent they are compared to each other.

[smy_749]

I understood what he said. The purpose of this thread is not about how intelligent snakes are, but how intelligent they are compared to each other.

Yea I just thought that Aaron was trying to say they don't show any intelligence, maybe I understood it, but I wasn't responding to you though.

Retics show some intelligent behaviors, just watch piracacu's video where his retic understands the laws of physics.

[Mikoh4792]

Yea I just thought that Aaron was trying to say they don't show any intelligence, maybe I understood it, but I wasn't responding to you though.

Retics show some intelligent behaviors, just watch piracacu's video where his retic understands the laws of physics.

lol I know which video are you talking about.

[Pareeeee]

If you want to know how smart snakes are just see any "aggressive" snake bash it's face off it's enclosure continually, never learning that there's a wall there that they can't get through...no matter how injured their face is.

I know what you're trying to say, and I do agree that snakes don't have emotions and are not as intelligent as higher animals.

...but that paragraph?? I could say the same thing about dogs:
"If you want to know how smart dogs are just see any "aggressive" dog attack a porcupine continually, never learning that there are quills there...no matter how injured their face is."

That is not how you measure animal intelligence, silly :p

[Pareeeee]

Oh got carried away and forgot to say what I originally was going to say - my Rosy Boa is unusually curious. If we are doing anything 'noisy' in the room he will come out of his hide and try to see what's going on. If I open his tub, he will try to climb onto my hand. If I take him outside, he follows me around. Dunno why, other than that he's weird. I like my weird snake.

My BP on the other hand, all he cares about is hiding and staying warm.

[smy_749]

Oh got carried away and forgot to say what I originally was going to say - my Rosy Boa is unusually curious. If we are doing anything 'noisy' in the room he will come out of his hide and try to see what's going on. If I open his tub, he will try to climb onto my hand. If I take him outside, he follows me around. Dunno why, other than that he's weird. I like my weird snake.

My BP on the other hand, all he cares about is hiding and staying warm.


How does he hear the noise?

[Pareeeee]

How does he hear the noise?

vibrations, usually if there's a lot of thumping noises.

[smy_749]

vibrations, usually if there's a lot of thumping noises.

Yea I was just being bothersome. I figured someone would point out they can't hear so might as well be me :P but I knew what you meant lol

[Pareeeee]

Yea I was just being bothersome. I figured someone would point out they can't hear so might as well be me :P but I knew what you meant lol

Pickety pick pick pick nit picky pick pickitey pick!

:D lol

[Aaron_S]

I personally enjoy when you're all feisty

I bet you do ;)

[Aaron_S]

I know what you're trying to say, and I do agree that snakes don't have emotions and are not as intelligent as higher animals.

...but that paragraph?? I could say the same thing about dogs:
"If you want to know how smart dogs are just see any "aggressive" dog attack a porcupine continually, never learning that there are quills there...no matter how injured their face is."

That is not how you measure animal intelligence, silly :p

Really? But I'm supposed to believe the study done where corn snakes learned a maze? I can't use my example of repetition failing to show any sort of "learned" behaviour but others can?

Also the difference between our examples are that many dogs will just let the porcupine be and learn a lesson, or if they see another one a different day they will have learned their lesson. Snakes on the other hand, continually, day after day strike and hit the glass. Not only certain ones but a LOT of them do.

[Arboreal]

It depends on what you consider intelligent. The average idea of intelligence is cognitive abilities, problem solving skills, instinct etc. But, the king cobra (Ophiophagus hannah), Reticulated Python (Python reticulatus), and many other elapids are VERY intelligent it's scary! As parrots are at the level of intelligence of a 3-5 year old child, and mental stability of a 2 year old! I'd put King cobras at the intelligence of a 2-3 year old, with the mental stability of baboon! :eek:, retics are most likely at the pace of a newborn-1 year child. I use the term of "mental instability" loosely, referring to Aggressiveness, Nervousness, demeanor. Now, I personally found the GTP's intelligent (might be a LITTLE biased :P), I always saw them working something out in their brains...calculating...learning. I don't like how we underestimate animal intelligence, as we really can't "measure" intelligence, and have a varying idea of what "intelligence" is. :) That's my two cents :)

[Pareeeee]

Really? But I'm supposed to believe the study done where corn snakes learned a maze? I can't use my example of repetition failing to show any sort of "learned" behaviour but others can?

Also the difference between our examples are that many dogs will just let the porcupine be and learn a lesson, or if they see another one a different day they will have learned their lesson. Snakes on the other hand, continually, day after day strike and hit the glass. Not only certain ones but a LOT of them do.

Aaron, panties are uncomfortable when they're in a bunch. :yes:

Also, humans exhibit this behavior too!!!
http://i.imgur.com/70WYA.gif
...and Justin Beiber walked into a door not once but it twice (he didn't learn)

ok ok not relevant - just something to lighten the mood :D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where did I say that I believed corn snakes can learn mazes? I will say it again - I know what you're trying to say, and I do agree that snakes don't have emotions and are not as intelligent as higher animals.

Nearly everyone here has noticed that their snakes exhibit primitive learned behavior (ie: recognition over time of feeding tongs, hooks, etc). So they can learn, but to an extremely limited extent.

And as for dogs 'learning their lesson' when it comes to porcupines, the dogs I've known never did. This is why I used that particular example, and is why I believe we can't use that type of behavior to judge an animal's intelligence.
A family I know lives in a wooded area, their old dog always got into porcupines. Multiple times. (we have a lot in our area) He never learned, they actually had him put down because they couldn't afford to remove quills from his face once again (I wish they would've just tied him up...:( )
Along the same lines, deer and rabbits run toward cars on the road and get killed. Not because they are stupid. Deer and rabbits are some of the fastest animals out there, and they use their speed to avoid being killed. This, of course, doesn't work with cars; they can't even comprehend the speed a vehicle can go.
Instinct can be a powerful thing, and sometimes instinct can be horribly wrong.

Instinct powers the snake to try to attack you through the glass, and because of their lower intelligence they cannot comprehend being able to see through something yet not go through it.
I could be wrong about this but don't many snakes have less than ideal eyesight as well? Could factor into it.

[Kettennatter]

[...]
Also the difference between our examples are that many dogs will just let the porcupine be and learn a lesson, or if they see another one a different day they will have learned their lesson. Snakes on the other hand, continually, day after day strike and hit the glass. Not only certain ones but a LOT of them do.

The question becomes whether this behavior is more likely in certain types of snakes. I only see striking glass continue in snakes that have a very high feeding response. Quite frankly, I don't see it as an indicator of any type of intelligence, but rather a specific instinct being dominant.

To me this goes back to the earlier question of how we'd even define intelligence in this context. Some snakes will change behavior, often painfully slow during some form conditioning, others pick it up a little faster. But it is nowhere near, or even comparable to, the immediate learning experience that you see in many mammals.

[Mikoh4792]

This thread has gone so off topic lo. It was supposed to be about which snakes are "smarter" than other snakes, no matter how stupid snakes are. It wasn't supposed to be about how smart snakes are in general.

[Pareeeee]

This thread has gone so off topic lo. It was supposed to be about which snakes are "smarter" than other snakes, no matter how stupid snakes are. It wasn't supposed to be about how smart snakes are in general.

Indeed.

I would probably say cobras and certain colubrids, but this is a very uneducated guess. Pythons and boas, I believe, are more primitive, especially pythons.

[Mikoh4792]

Indeed.

I would probably say Cobras and certain colubrids, but this is a very uneducated guess.

Better than nothing!

[Pareeeee]

Found something interesting about intelligence, this study was done on boas.
Snakes Methodically Kill Prey : Discovery News : Discovery News (http://news.discovery.com/animals/how-snakes-kill-121701.htm)

[StudentoReptile]

Found something interesting about intelligence, this study was done on boas.
Snakes Methodically Kill Prey : Discovery News : Discovery News (http://news.discovery.com/animals/how-snakes-kill-121701.htm)

I don't view that as intelligence. That is instinctual behavior the snakes are born with, not a learned behavior.

I concur that elapids are probably the smarties over all the rest, and the primitive boas and pythons are the ones on the other end of the spectrum.

I can't remember where I read it, but I remember an experiment once where a king cobra was offered a water snake (Nerodia sp), a species it never encounters in the wild. It of course dispatched and ate it with ease. Then it was offered a water moccasin. It killed and ate this one as well, but it was initially cautious, like it was aware that the moccasin was venomous. Then it was offered a moccasin and a Nerodia at the same time. It ignored the water snake and dealt with the moccasin first, presumably because it presented a greater danger. Maybe the whole thing is bogus, because I cant find the source, but I wouldn't put it past a king cobra to figure that stuff out.

[poison123]

The fact that a spitting cobra aims for the eyes seems Intelligent to me. Or is that info false?

[StudentoReptile]

The fact that a spitting cobra aims for the eyes seems Intelligent to me. Or is that info false?

Again, just pre-programmed instinct to aim for the most effective target to deter said threat.

Over thousands/millions of years of evolution eliminated all the spitting cobras that were spitting at other parts of the body, and left the ones that were spitting at the eyes. But it is not a conscious decision on the cobra's part to aim there.

[poison123]

Again, just pre-programmed instinct to aim for the most effective target to deter said threat.

Over thousands/millions of years of evolution eliminated all the spitting cobras that were spitting at other parts of the body, and left the ones that were spitting at the eyes. But it is not a conscious decision on the cobra's part to aim there.

Mind sharing where this info came from?

[smy_749]

charles darwin

[Mikoh4792]

charles darwin

http://i39.tinypic.com/jhdd07.jpg

[strictaz]

From my experience..

Retics and condas hands down very intelligent snakes. Display behaviors such as following your movement even from far, and in a nonfeeding matter. They will look around the room up down left right , especially in a new environment almost as if they were curious. Had a retic once that would come out within a couple minutes of opening his enclosure. Also male retics are territorial and do participate in combat.

Burms do sometimes display these traits depending on the individual although usually this is not the case.

Boas and balls are not all there .. They show very little signs of intelligence and from what I've experienced and based solely in instinct.

Just thought I'd share :)

[Mikoh4792]

From my experience..

Retics and condas hands down very intelligent snakes. Display behaviors such as following your movement even from far, and in a nonfeeding matter. They will look around the room up down left right , especially in a new environment almost as if they were curious. Had a retic once that would come out within a couple minutes of opening his enclosure. Also male retics are territorial and do participate in combat.

Burms do sometimes display these traits depending on the individual although usually this is not the case.

Boas and balls are not all there .. They show very little signs of intelligence and from what I've experienced and based solely in instinct.

Just thought I'd share :)

Thanks for the input.

My speckled kingsnake shows a similar behavior pattern. She is very observant and analyzing even of far away objects. Much different from my Cali King which seems "special" at times.

[StudentoReptile]

Mind sharing where this info came from?

Umm...Theory of evolution; i.e. natural selection, Survival of the fittest...they've been teaching this stuff in high school textbooks for years. Skip too many classes, perhaps? ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Thamnophis. Curious and interactive. Calm and relaxed.

[poison123]

I'm pretty sure they don't teach you about cobras in high school. But then again you are right I did skip a lot of classes. lol

[KORBIN5895]

Umm...Theory of evolution; i.e. natural selection, Survival of the fittest...they've been teaching this stuff in high school textbooks for years. ;)

It's really sad isn't it?

[marvelfreak]

This is the smartest snake alive. He can smell out fake breast.
j1xowAT_i8U

[Mikoh4792]

This is the smartest snake alive. He can smell out fake breast.
j1xowAT_i8U

no way, he just wanted some milk

[smy_749]

This thread is on the reptile report now :P

[DestinyLynette]

no way, he just wanted some milk

Well, with her sticking her tongue in its face and her boobs all but falling out, it probably presumed it was perfectly acceptable for her. :rolleyes: Well earned.


I only own ball pythons, so I can't chime in. I can only say I've HEARD boas have more "intelligence", for whatever you take it for, or more often stated more "personality" than BPs, but I don't know from experience... yet
Ditto that I've heard cobras are more intelligent though. I have read up a bit on false water cobras (which is a columbriae) and their keepers consider them to be of a high caliber intelligence.

Like I said, I have limited experience, but I've heard the same opinions across the board going roughly like this: most pythons --> boas ---> columbriae ---> elaspidae.
As for the cause of this- a whole 'nother debate.

Maybe I'll have a different idea after I expand my own collection outside of what I have now.

Edit:
Something I've noticed, when "intelligence" is discussed in lizards, it seems to go smaller to larger- a tegu is indisputably considered more intelligent than an anole. Snakes seem to work backwards.

[Corey209]

Furthermore, booid snakes (boas/pythons) are evolutionarily the oldest group.

Would this be the reason both of these seem to have so many more base morphs compared to a lot of other species?

[Aaron_S]

Would this be the reason both of these seem to have so many more base morphs compared to a lot of other species?

Corn snakes wave hello.