Meet Lazarus (rescue)

[Spirit_Scale]

So my snake family now numbers two (for now :D) with the addition of a rescued 11 year old male BCI mix (Columbian x Hogg Island).

He's a kijiji snake who was in need of a good home and I'm experienced in dealing with animals in need of TLC (and have a good exotic vet who lets me do payment plans) so home he came.
Picked him up from some kid who couldn't/wouldn't pay for his vet bills and halfway home the mites started crawling out of the container he was in *shudder*. We pulled over, dumped the container and the bedding and put him in a clean pillowcase. Got home and sealed up the clothes I was wearing in a bag in a closet till I can wash them and sealed and threw out the pillowcase he came home in. He's currently in a glass tank on paper towel. The tank has tape around the top (not experienced with mites...but if it keeps pinheads in why not?). Hopefully that (and a heck of a lot of handwashing, separate supplies for him and our existing herps, hand sanitizer, closed doors) will keep the mites from spreading. I was sure he was clean...damn....I even had a second pair of eyes looking him over and she missed them. No signs of IBD though so thats good.

Poor little dude (he's about 6 feet or so) is in need of some serious TLC, has an abscess in his jaw, mites (yuuuck) and what sounds like an RI. He's in quarantine in the kitchen for the next three months.

These are from yesterday (he's in shed currently), he's brightened up a bit today and hasn't bit or struck at me yet though hissed a bit (knocks on wood) when I've had to handle him to clean his quarantine tank, wipe him down with disinfectant (wohoo leftover chlorhexidine), dry him off from his baths (with betadine) and apply mite-off to him and his enclosure.
Even in the last 24 hours the number of mites I find on the paper towel are going down drastically and nearly all of them are dead. Hoping moving him into a new enclosure that was pre-treated will keep them from breeding and becoming established and its just a matter of killing the adults.
I'm not quite used to how quick boas move and their body language so its been interesting! My ball python is so slow and chilled out in comparison.

He's going into the vet sometime this week to get everything looked at.
In about a week I'll offer him a f/t medium rat and see how he does (apparently that's what he was eating) Beautiful little guy and such a sweetie considering all he's been through, very happy to have him :)

[bigsnakegirl785]

At 6ft, he should be eating larger than a medium. My 5ft boa is eating large rats at 275+ grams, and it looks like he may need to be stepped up fairly soon.

But, I'm glad to hear you picked him up, and you're giving him the care he needs. :) Sounds like you're one the right track with the mites, and I hope his RI and abscess clears up. Even dulled out in shed, he looks very nice. :D Definitely keep us updated on his progress, and make sure to post post-shed pictures. :)

[Spirit_Scale]

That's what I thought originally, but he's long and skinny (my 4 foot BP has more girth than he does) and what goes for 'medium' (150 grams i think +/-) in my area will leave a pretty good lump in him, I think...I'll have a better idea what to feed him when he's been weighed at the vets.

I've had him out a little more today and I think the 6 foot estimate is a little generous if not the maximum. He's certainly over 4 feet, but might be closer to five with a little extra.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Ah. If he is smaller than that, then I can see why he was fed that size. Ball pythons are generally thicker-bodied than boa constrictors. The 5ft boa is now the same thickness as my 3.5ft ball python, and the ball is a little thin due to his picky feeding habits over the past half a year....Boa constrictors should have a box shape if they're in shape, over the roundness of a bp.

[Spirit_Scale]

Quick update today, Lazarus is doing well and his appointment is this Saturday to get looked at by the vet.
Offered some food last night (Saturday is usually feeding day at my place, and wanted to offer food and give him some time to digest prior to the vet), but he wasn't interested. Bummer. Hoping he *actually* has been eating and *actually* takes f/t---with the asshat who had him god knows if that was true but hoping that it was just new home jitters.

If not that abscess is going to be more of a problem then I thought.

On the mite front it *looks* like we are winning the war. Of course there's always the nightmarish possibility that there's teeny eggs and etc I can't see that are just waiting to hatch and start the war all over again just when we're in the clear...but I'm trying to be positive because he was transferred into a pre-treated new tank and substrate and was treated before being put in there, so hopefully the mites haven't been able to breed. I *might* wipe up/see a total of 10-20 dead mites today when I clean the tank. When he came home 4 days ago there was easily that number just on him alone.

I'll continue the mite treatment for a month regardless of whether or not I see more, and hopefully that will nuke them.

[Aaron_S]

At 6ft, he should be eating larger than a medium. My 5ft boa is eating large rats at 275+ grams, and it looks like he may need to be stepped up fairly soon.

Wrong.

It doesn't NEED to be eating that size. I know people who breed boas who feed their males a small rat weekly and the adult females get a medium rat.

That's roughly 100 grams for males and 175 - 200 grams for females. BREEDING animals.

[Aaron_S]

Where did you learn the age of the snake? Just curious. You don't see many older animals.

You're wasting a lot of time and energy on your mite war. I don't know mite-off but what does work is Nix hair lice remover.

1. Buy it over the counter at shoppers. (Don't forget to scratch and itch your hair for the pharmacist!)
2. Dilute it.
3. Remove water dish
4. Spray the snake and the entire enclosure
5. Replace water bowl a day later
6. Repeat 2 weeks later

The abscess is probably keeping the snake from eating. It looks "healthy" sized from the pics so should maintain fine.

[Spirit_Scale]

The guy who had him previously said he was an '02, that's all I've got to go on.

As far as the choice of mite-killer I am plenty satisfied with the mite-off and don't wish to use anything stronger or more chemical-based than that. True that the mite-off does have chemical ingredients (SLS) and some oils---but if I had to pick I'd take a surfractant that (in combination with the oils and water) breaks surface tension and drowns the mites.
Especially since permithrin (active ingredient in nix) is neurotoxic to snakes, and is not to be used on small children and must be avoided to get into the eyes (which is a problem because mites like to hide in around the eyes and in the heat pits etc). I don't want that on my snake. Especially since he's an older animal and has a questionable health status as it is.
As well, he has been treated (according to his old owner) twice with nix.
Given its potential to harm and its questionable efficiency in this case it is time to switch up tactics.

The mite off and daily cleanings and soaks are proving effective.
I'd rather put in the effort than put his health at risk or hurt him just so I can put in less effort or get it done quicker.

This is him today, coloured up some but still no shed.

[Aaron_S]

Meh I see it as putting the health at risk the longer the mites are left.

Nix is used on a lot of snakes on a regular basis when properly diluted. I know the active ingredient and how my products work but thanks for trying.

I don't get how you prefer putting oils on a snake but disagree with nix. Oils are harmful as well. The fact it suffocates things is the issue there.

We'll agree to disagree. Nix isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

[Spirit_Scale]

Wasn't trying to start a war so for that I apologize :)

I'm more comfortable using a product which has a bit of oil (I'm in no way coating him with it---a procedure which I know has negative consequences) then using a product that even when properly diluted has been known to cause fatalities, especially when he's an older and sort of sickly/health status unknown animal.
The other thing is that Nix is not a reptile-developed or approved product---the Zoo-med mite-off is.

That's all I meant.
If you've had good luck with the Nix product then by all means, I'm just not comfortable with it and prefer (what I feel) is a less harsh method, even if it is more labor intensive.
Its been a few days and 95% of the mites are dead---so i've got to be doing something right.

[Aaron_S]

Wasn't trying to start a war so for that I apologize :)

I'm more comfortable using a product which has a bit of oil (I'm in no way coating him with it---a procedure which I know has negative consequences) then using a product that even when properly diluted has been known to cause fatalities, especially when he's an older and sort of sickly/health status unknown animal.
The other thing is that Nix is not a reptile-developed or approved product---the Zoo-med mite-off is.

That's all I meant.
If you've had good luck with the Nix product then by all means, I'm just not comfortable with it and prefer (what I feel) is a less harsh method, even if it is more labor intensive.
Its been a few days and 95% of the mites are dead---so i've got to be doing something right.

There is no war. I never said there was.

I'd like you to prove of these fatalities while nix was properly diluted. I've never heard of it and yes, I've seen the same snakes nixed twice, every month for 6 months. (Sprayed before leaving for a show so nothing will stick to them or crawl from one table to this one and then once again at home, just in case something did come home)

I have yet to see it be fatal when used properly. I wouldn't put too much stock into items because they are commercially made for reptile use. Doesn't mean it isn't a lie.

I can also get rid of the adult mites with water and dish soap to break the surface so they drown. Eggs is what you have to worry about it. Let me know if you have a new outbreak in a couple weeks when you think they are all gone.

I'm only continuing this so anyone who reads this thread will have both pros and cons of both products so they can make the same decision we've made, which product will work best for us.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Wrong.

It doesn't NEED to be eating that size. I know people who breed boas who feed their males a small rat weekly and the adult females get a medium rat.

That's roughly 100 grams for males and 175 - 200 grams for females. BREEDING animals.

I must've misunderstood what I was told then, or they told me the info I heard and left out the part about breeding animals.

[Aaron_S]

I must've misunderstood what I was told then, or they told me the info I heard and left out the part about breeding animals.

As I said, doesn't NEED to be bigger.

Quite often we over feed our captives and overestimate what they need to thrive.

People love to feed huge meals to their captives on a regular basis. Try feeding your pets 10 - 15% of their body weight on a regular weekly basis, bet you'll see a faster growth.

[dbassa]

feeding your pets 10 - 15% of their body weight on a regular weekly basis, bet you'll see a faster growth.

I really like feeding by this percentage formula. I first read about it on Alessia55's web page which sadly I can no longer find, and have been using it for the entire time I have had my ball and corn snakes.

[Mikoh4792]

As I said, doesn't NEED to be bigger.

Quite often we over feed our captives and overestimate what they need to thrive.

People love to feed huge meals to their captives on a regular basis. Try feeding your pets 10 - 15% of their body weight on a regular weekly basis, bet you'll see a faster growth.

do you feed adult snakes weekly too when using this formula?

[Spirit_Scale]

Aaron, if I need to, if there are eggs lying around and there is a second outbreak, then I will step up my methods. But I would first like to try something as snake friendly as possible.

Diluted or not, the fact that there have been fatalities and damage makes me hesitant to use it in a scenario where

A) The mites are not heavily established nor had they had time to breed. The snake was put right away into a clean tank that had been treated, and the snake was treated as well. Immediately nine times out of ten any mite I saw or came off the snake was dead. To me, this suggests that in combination with the low numbers of mites and the fact that they hadn't had time to colonize the tank that they would not have ample time to breed.
B) I treat, disinfect and wipe down the cage daily.

Which suggests to me that drastic methods are not called for.

[bigsnakegirl785]

As I said, doesn't NEED to be bigger.

Quite often we over feed our captives and overestimate what they need to thrive.

People love to feed huge meals to their captives on a regular basis. Try feeding your pets 10 - 15% of their body weight on a regular weekly basis, bet you'll see a faster growth.

Ah, yes. That's the kind of schedule I've had Cloud on. Now that I've started actually having him weighed monthly, so I have a better idea of his weight. Last month he was almost 4.5lbs, and I'm guessing he's now 5lbs (if not a little over), as he gained 9oz between the last two times I weighed him. I'll be taking him to be weighed tomorrow, and he's due to eat tomorrow as well, but I might hold off another day. He's eating 275-280 gram large rats once a week (this feeding is late due to his shedding cycle), and I was thinking about going biweekly, but I'm not sure now.

[Aaron_S]

I really like feeding by this percentage formula. I first read about it on Alessia55's web page which sadly I can no longer find, and have been using it for the entire time I have had my ball and corn snakes.

Yeah, there's a really good reason she put that there. Learned it from a couple other people.

[Aaron_S]

do you feed adult snakes weekly too when using this formula?

I do yes. I am breeding my animals so the females absolutely need a regular meal offered.

I'd do it anyway, even if I wasn't breeding. Purely because I think it's a solid size as it isn't too big or too small and keeps the snake at a good, proper weight.

[Aaron_S]

Aaron, if I need to, if there are eggs lying around and there is a second outbreak, then I will step up my methods. But I would first like to try something as snake friendly as possible.

Diluted or not, the fact that there have been fatalities and damage makes me hesitant to use it in a scenario where

Whoa whoa whoa. Don't change your tune here. You said even diluted it's killed animals. Multiple animals. I politely asked if you recall where this happened. I think it's a fair request being that I use the product and to my knowledge unless not properly used is safe for my animals.



A) The mites are not heavily established nor had they had time to breed. The snake was put right away into a clean tank that had been treated, and the snake was treated as well. Immediately nine times out of ten any mite I saw or came off the snake was dead. To me, this suggests that in combination with the low numbers of mites and the fact that they hadn't had time to colonize the tank that they would not have ample time to breed.


You're silly to think they haven't 'colonized'. They don't colonize the tank, they colonize the snake. The fact that they were escaping off the snake when you first got it tells me it was grossly covered. There are FAR more of them, and breeding, then you think. They already had ample time to breed before you ever saw them.

"Low numbers" means squat when there's multiple ADULTS already established on your snake. You're underestimating these things.

Hope you don't have to re-treat. Sincerely, good luck.

[bcr229]

Kudos on the rescue and I really hope you can bring this poor guy back to good health.

I'm going to back up Aaron's recommendation to use the Nix. Here in the US we can also get PAM which is a 0.5% permethrin product in an aerosol can, but I don't think it's available in Canada. If you mix the Nix concentrate with 1 gallon (4 liters) of distilled water, you get the same basic product - you just need a squirt bottle to apply it.

You don't treat the snake directly with it, only the enclosure (remove the water bowls first) and substrate. We use paper towels for QT'ed animals, spray everything outside with the diluted Nix, and let it dry before bringing everything back inside and returning the snake to the treated enclosure and substrate.

Mites have five phases in their life cycle, and the third and fourth phases (protonymph and deutonymph) typically do not live on the snake. Also, the females don't tend to lay eggs on the snake either, they prefer a hidden corner. This is why the Nix or PAM treatment works even though only the enclosure and substrate are treated - the mites that hatch out don't live to adulthood because they travel across the treated surfaces, and the females die when they leave the snake to lay eggs.

[Spirit_Scale]

Well, if I need to I will consider the nix in the future.

Just got back from the vet, Lazarus weighs 2.2 kilos/almost 5 pounds and other than a retained eyecap, some old burn marks/scars on his nose and the abscess he's in good shape. He still does huff/puff/wheeze a bit but the vet didn't say anything when she examined his mouth. Worse comes to worse I'll take him back in if I notice anything off.

His abscess is actually three tiny ones close together, none of them are attached to the bone and none of them seemed very bad. So she decided to do the conservative option (in part due to his age and his health as its impossible to know *exactly* what his status is) and do two weeks of daily (baytril) antibiotic injections and see if it begins to go away on its own. Added bonus is that it should help if there's any beginnings of an RI in his lungs as well.

If not, we'll do the surgery, lance it, clean it out etc.

I'm very surprised and proud of him---hell of a lot of noise but no strikes or bites.
Though that may change with the daily injections lol.

[KORBIN5895]

I think daily injections for two weeks is very extreme. Also nix is supposed to be sprayed directly on the snake.

[Aaron_S]

Well, if I need to I will consider the nix in the future.

Just got back from the vet, Lazarus weighs 2.2 kilos/almost 5 pounds and other than a retained eyecap, some old burn marks/scars on his nose and the abscess he's in good shape. He still does huff/puff/wheeze a bit but the vet didn't say anything when she examined his mouth. Worse comes to worse I'll take him back in if I notice anything off.

His abscess is actually three tiny ones close together, none of them are attached to the bone and none of them seemed very bad. So she decided to do the conservative option (in part due to his age and his health as its impossible to know *exactly* what his status is) and do two weeks of daily (baytril) antibiotic injections and see if it begins to go away on its own. Added bonus is that it should help if there's any beginnings of an RI in his lungs as well.

If not, we'll do the surgery, lance it, clean it out etc.

I'm very surprised and proud of him---hell of a lot of noise but no strikes or bites.
Though that may change with the daily injections lol.

Baytril is bad to just use as a RI "preventative".

If an RI is present (doesn't sound like it) then a culture would be needed as the cause of the RI could be resistant to baytril. Hopefully no burns turn up with the daily injections.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but boa abscess's are not like ours, they tend to be "hard" and not fluid filled. I don't see them going away on their own with a general drug like baytril.

There's nothing wrong with his health it seems from the outside other than the parts you mentioned and his age is still fairly young (even if it's 11 years) so I'd go with the surgery to get rid of it for sure.

All the best though. Good luck.

[Spirit_Scale]

I know that snake abscesses are not like those in mammals. But this was the option my exotic vet wanted to try and if it saves him being put under and me the cost of surgery then I'll give it a shot.
She wasn't able to do the surgery today and would've only been able to schedule it in at best two weeks so it gives me room to see if the baytril will have any effect.

As far as I know as well abscesses can often indicate systemic bacterial issues so this should help clear that up.

I'm familiar with baytril and know that it isn't effective for many pathogens anymore as well as can cause burns/lumps in snakes, so I'll be alternating his injection site and hoping all goes well. The RI preventative was more an off-hand comment 'hey maybe it'll help if I'm lucky' then a serious 'it'll treat this for sure' type of thing.

He just shed a little while ago, everything came off in one piece minus (as I predicted) his head, which with a wet cloth I was able to roll off the stuck skin---it was ready to come off just between the abscess and the scars it is tricky for him. The retained eyecap is gone as far as I can tell and both eyes and nostrils are clear. There's still a piece stuck where his abscess is but I'm letting him soak and calm down before I work that off him. There's an odd patch on his back that looks like either damaged scales or a scar---its not stuck shed (though perhaps retained shed from a long time ago?) as it doesn't move when soaked and gently rolled and there weren't any holes in his shed when I checked.

I'll get some pics up of him and the odd patch

[slowhite03]

So, I've been reading this and as an outsider I'm going to say this, I don't want to start a war or an off topic starter. They are using a well used mite remover and he wants to use it, quit trying to force him to use a diffrent product when he is comfortable using the product he has. Why does everyone say take their pets to a vet and once the vet recommends something they say the vet is wrong and they know what's best. If the vet recommends something, I would trust what they say. Sorry to rant but I just had to speak my mind.

[KORBIN5895]

So, I've been reading this and as an outsider I'm going to say this, I don't want to start a war or an off topic starter. They are using a well used mite remover and he wants to use it, quit trying to force him to use a diffrent product when he is comfortable using the product he has. Why does everyone say take their pets to a vet and once the vet recommends something they say the vet is wrong and they know what's best. If the vet recommends something, I would trust what they say. Sorry to rant but I just had to speak my mind.

You are 100% percent correct in saying mite-off is well know. Unfortunately it is well known as being extremely ineffective. The only people that purchase this are new snake owners.

As I said, doesn't NEED to be bigger.

Quite often we over feed our captives and overestimate what they need to thrive.

People love to feed huge meals to their captives on a regular basis. Try feeding your pets 10 - 15% of their body weight on a regular weekly basis, bet you'll see a faster growth.

I completely agree with the fact that we feed our snakes way too much.

I personally feed very large meals but I space them way out. Today I fed my 6'6" female albino a rabbit weighing 3 lbs 11 oz. I won't feed her again for 5-6 weeks at the earliest.

[Aaron_S]

So, I've been reading this and as an outsider I'm going to say this, I don't want to start a war or an off topic starter. They are using a well used mite remover and he wants to use it, quit trying to force him to use a diffrent product when he is comfortable using the product he has. Why does everyone say take their pets to a vet and once the vet recommends something they say the vet is wrong and they know what's best. If the vet recommends something, I would trust what they say. Sorry to rant but I just had to speak my mind.

Actually I didn't "force" anything. If you actually read my entire comments I made note to say my comments were so anyone who needed help reading the thread would have two viable options and the pros and cons of both to make judgement on.

I never said I knew more than a vet but I certainly know a heck of a lot about reptiles. I only made suggestions based on known facts. Do you take everyone's knowledge at face value? I'm a professional, I get paid to raise snakes, why is my opinion not apparently valid?

[Spirit_Scale]

These are the pics from a few days ago right after he shed.

As for today, Lazarus is doing well. I can't be certain but I *think* the abscess is beginning to shrink after three days of shots and I'm hearing less noise from him (I checked his mouth, no obvious bubbles or drool). He's taken two small rats (cleaning out the freezer of the remaining stock before I go get mediums for him and my BP---occasionally I switch up sizes with my BP when he begins to get fussy as sometimes smaller-than-normal prey does the trick) and is very active and curious.

No bites or sketchy behaviour from him and the mite situation is under control thus far, I find a dead mite or two every other day.